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But has he ever conquered a situation where the Pygmalion effect was caused by EM?ElixirBlue said:
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Phoenix Wright vs Makoto Naegi, in Class Trial
- Thread starter Xanxussama1010
- Start date
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6th game, every trial till the last one. That EM was based on a lie to the public (all lawyers are bad and put your hope on the priestess) and laws and there no faith in Phoenix's abilities till he turned it around.
I wouldn't say that it is on the same level of Makoto's EM, as it came from a place of power by the leader of the country, as citizens tend to inherently put their faith and hopes on their leaders, but it was EM Phoenix conquered.
I wouldn't say that it is on the same level of Makoto's EM, as it came from a place of power by the leader of the country, as citizens tend to inherently put their faith and hopes on their leaders, but it was EM Phoenix conquered.
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If the EM wasn't as strong, I wouldn't take that feat so easily. Also, the relationship came from an impersonal admiration relationship with the country's leader. While their admiration for the leader is high, they don't know him on a personal level like class 78 knows Naegi. Also, Naegi has been their saving grace throughout the previous trials, making him a reliable, personal source that has personally helped each of them before, and he has EM. He's pretty stacked hereElixirBlue said:
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He isn't pretty stacked. That's one thing that he has faced weaker ends of before. If anything. Makoto has it stacked against him. The experience, skills, intelligence, and super natural abilities don't suddenly disappear cause of EM.
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Okay, then how does Phoenix dissuade the Pygmalion effect? It literally hard counters logic and evidence, so what can Phoenix do?Buttersamuri said:
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Yeah, i'm Kinda tired of being one of the only ones who keep bring up example after example to prove my point.
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Right? I'm kinda interested what facts and logic Phoenix even has, but it's been asked like 3 times with no responseElixirBlue said:
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Like picking apart stories. Calling out contradictions. Like in his cases with the thinker were he punches holes right into their stories with questions.
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Specific example or event that goes against empathetic manipulation?Buttersamuri said:
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1. Like I've brought up before. He has changed minds like specifically Wendy oldbag, Who both has issues with wright and really doesn't seem to like him, and also loving edgeworth, and having told to keep her mouth shut about a certain accident death incident which could lead to the truth, and told to keep shut by a to say threatening company. She still was moved by Phoenix words and stance on justice enough to hand over the evidence to him personally
2. Phoenix is Really good at tossing out fake or non related evidence.
3. That's really our of character. You also have to consider what he would do in character.
2. Phoenix is Really good at tossing out fake or non related evidence.
3. That's really our of character. You also have to consider what he would do in character.
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^ElixirBlue said:
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1. Pheonix definitly cannot "win" by "proving Makoto guilty". The scenario is another "final case of Justice for All" or "second-to-last case of Spirit of Justice", where Pheonix is pressured/threatened into taking on a case by someone though unlike those cases, not only is the goal set for him to prove someone else guilty rather than defend someone, but he also is doing this just for protecting himself rather than for protecting someone dear to him. Under these conditions, I suspect that Phoenix would:
a) Rather die than go through with it leading to Makoto to win by default, or
b) Pretend to go along and attempt to use the trial to expose his blackmailer somehow, without intention of actually declaring Makoto guilty
2. If 1.b) applies, then there is a good chance for the situation to be turned around with both cooperating to prosecute the "real mastermind" instead which would be an incon, I guess, regardless of whether they succeed or not.
3. Even if Phoenix begrudingly decided to prosecute Makoto, his motivation would be at an all-time bottom and there is no way he'd succeed like that.
Based on this it's either a victory for Makoto if Phoenix refuses the fight itself or if he begrudgingly tries to go after Makoto, or an inconclusive if Phoenix tries to go for the real mastermind instead. Or to put it another way, I just can't see any scenario where Phoenix actually wins.
Not voting yet though.
a) Rather die than go through with it leading to Makoto to win by default, or
b) Pretend to go along and attempt to use the trial to expose his blackmailer somehow, without intention of actually declaring Makoto guilty
2. If 1.b) applies, then there is a good chance for the situation to be turned around with both cooperating to prosecute the "real mastermind" instead which would be an incon, I guess, regardless of whether they succeed or not.
3. Even if Phoenix begrudingly decided to prosecute Makoto, his motivation would be at an all-time bottom and there is no way he'd succeed like that.
Based on this it's either a victory for Makoto if Phoenix refuses the fight itself or if he begrudgingly tries to go after Makoto, or an inconclusive if Phoenix tries to go for the real mastermind instead. Or to put it another way, I just can't see any scenario where Phoenix actually wins.
Not voting yet though.
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That's a good point, I never really considered what was in character in this situation to that degreeNeoSuperior said:
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Not true. Half of what Phoenix does is basically prosecuting. Pointing out who did it and why. Phoenix doesn't just defend his client and leave it at that. He always finds the true culprit. As long as he is finding the actual guilty one, he wouldn't have an issue prosecuting someone. He already basically does it. defending then proving who actually did it. He actually goes out of his way to do this as well. All he has to do is prove his client didn't do it. But he always goes for the entire find out who actually did it and prove it. And as long as Makoto is Guilty. Which he is. He won't be at his worse. What's to consider is the fact Makoto is actually guilty. So he has to defend himself on a crime he did do.
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Also side note
I have very little to no doubt that they would find out there true mastermind behind it all With minds like Phoenix and Makoto in the same room.
I have very little to no doubt that they would find out there true mastermind behind it all With minds like Phoenix and Makoto in the same room.
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I mean Phoenix ALWAYS defended someone in court first and foremost. The emphasis is always on "believing one's client" rather than "finding the culprit". The latter is just a means to an end to affirm the former.
Also again, blackmailing has shown to make Phoenix extremely conflicted and he only ever lets it happen because Maya is held hostage. If it's just him being threatened, I don't think it's very effective, so in-character I just don't see Phoenix seriously going after Makoto for any reason other than to "buy time" at most.
Choosing to refuse and letting himself be killed rather than dragging others into it is possible, but since that'd end the match at the very premise (or have Phoenix somehow surviving with his sturdy body and cause the story to go completely off the rail before it even starts... so never mind that), I guess the turn of events where they'll start off debating against each other but end up turning on the mastermind is most likely.
Not to mention both sides have feats of "pulling down the curtain" to reveal the "true mastermind", so thinking about it, it seems like that is the only plausible outcome here. So I guess I'll vote incon for "breaking the system" from both sides, regardless of whether they succeed or not. Even if they get executed, they might both survive due to sturdiness and luck respectively.
Also again, blackmailing has shown to make Phoenix extremely conflicted and he only ever lets it happen because Maya is held hostage. If it's just him being threatened, I don't think it's very effective, so in-character I just don't see Phoenix seriously going after Makoto for any reason other than to "buy time" at most.
Choosing to refuse and letting himself be killed rather than dragging others into it is possible, but since that'd end the match at the very premise (or have Phoenix somehow surviving with his sturdy body and cause the story to go completely off the rail before it even starts... so never mind that), I guess the turn of events where they'll start off debating against each other but end up turning on the mastermind is most likely.
Not to mention both sides have feats of "pulling down the curtain" to reveal the "true mastermind", so thinking about it, it seems like that is the only plausible outcome here. So I guess I'll vote incon for "breaking the system" from both sides, regardless of whether they succeed or not. Even if they get executed, they might both survive due to sturdiness and luck respectively.
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That doesn't change the fact he has no problem pointing the finger as long as the person actually did it.
And if he knew Makoto did it. And he did do it. It's as simple as one question and then he would know.
But in a logical sense. Yes. Phoenix and Makoto would definitely pull out the master mind. And if that's an option. I do agree Inconclusive is the best decision cause these two are way too smart Not to figure it outs
And if he knew Makoto did it. And he did do it. It's as simple as one question and then he would know.
But in a logical sense. Yes. Phoenix and Makoto would definitely pull out the master mind. And if that's an option. I do agree Inconclusive is the best decision cause these two are way too smart Not to figure it outs
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Yes, no problem actually pointing it out. But like I pointed out, Phoenix doesn't have the evidence nor the influence to win this trial.
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Actually Phoenix likely wouldn't even consider Makoto to be the "culprit". Since Junko was the one to instigate it all, Makoto would be treated like DeKiller in the final Justice for All trial, while the "true culprit" would be Junko like Engarde, despite DeKiller/Makoto actually being the one to do the actual crime, but at instigation of someone else, with that "someone else" being considered the actual "culprit".
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He still asked if they did the crime or not. Much like he did in that very case. And since they didn't technically do the crime, they just fired someone to do it. But in those case. It wouldn't work. Phoenix would get an answer her
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H. O. W.?Buttersamuri said:
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The Magatama.
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Er... the Magatama only works on those who are hiding something: the only ones who would be hiding something be Hifumi and the idiot, as none of the girls know nothing. Those two can spill the beans all they want but:Buttersamuri said:
- 1. They are equally guilty of the same crime as Makoto.
- 2. There isn't any possible physical evidence that can link Makoto to the case.
- 3. The Magatama has never revealed the guilt of the guilty in any case that the guilty would be accused of, (like murder or in this case, being guilty of peeking), so it wouldn't work on Hifumi and the idiot in the first place and certainly not Makoto.
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And it only works outside of the court room.
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1. He is guilty of it though. Just by asking. If the Maga detects he is lying. Then Phoenix will know
2. Contradictions and verbal evidence exist.
3. Ehh. Wrong. It can easily show Phoenix the guilty. That's why he is always asking the person he is defending before the case. It would work just as well with makoto
2. Contradictions and verbal evidence exist.
3. Ehh. Wrong. It can easily show Phoenix the guilty. That's why he is always asking the person he is defending before the case. It would work just as well with makoto
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Ehh no. definitely not.ElixirBlue said:
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The Magatama has worked in the middle of court? Scan?
Listentomyrhytm
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Didn't Phoenix himself state that he couldn't see psychelocks or whatever they're called in one case? I think it was the 2nd case of the 2nd game, right when the trial started.Buttersamuri said:
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He hasn't used them in court. But that's Baseless to say they don't work in court. Literally nothing proves that. Or suggest that. That's like me saying Superman's powers suddenly don't work in a courtroom cause he hadn't used them in them before.ElixirBlue said:
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1. It can detect people lying but Wright has gone into the court room without breaking the locks before.
2. Which can be counted with Empathetic manipulation. Because this class trial is opinionated and won't believe Wright's verbal evidence. Perhaps contradictions but if the contradictions are only verbal, the students will still believe in Makoto.
3. Eh, half truth. It may make Wright believe in his defendants but never once did he use the Magatama on a witness(the murderer) and was able revealed their guilt.
2. Which can be counted with Empathetic manipulation. Because this class trial is opinionated and won't believe Wright's verbal evidence. Perhaps contradictions but if the contradictions are only verbal, the students will still believe in Makoto.
3. Eh, half truth. It may make Wright believe in his defendants but never once did he use the Magatama on a witness(the murderer) and was able revealed their guilt.
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He hasn't used them in court. But that's Baseless to say they don't work in court. Literally nothing proves that. Or suggest that. That's like me saying Superman's powers suddenly don't work in a courtroom cause he hadn't used them in them before.
No. If he hasn't used it in court once in the 5 + games he has had the Magatama, despite always being pushed into the corner, it's NLF to say he'll finally use it for the first time in the fan vs battle.
No. If he hasn't used it in court once in the 5 + games he has had the Magatama, despite always being pushed into the corner, it's NLF to say he'll finally use it for the first time in the fan vs battle.
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1. Because. That's purely PIS. He isn't gonna pull that out every single point in the court. He needs to specifically hold it and use it. Not just have it on him
2. EM can help. But emotions vs what actually happened. Despite them feeling bad against it. They still voted him guilty before. Of Phoenix is able to show it was him with facts.
3. That's typically because he uses evidence instead. evidence is much more reliable in court then a maga.
2. EM can help. But emotions vs what actually happened. Despite them feeling bad against it. They still voted him guilty before. Of Phoenix is able to show it was him with facts.
3. That's typically because he uses evidence instead. evidence is much more reliable in court then a maga.
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For the second point, if all he has is a logos appeal without physical evidence, ethos and pathos will win out. They'll be more inclined to believe that Naegi misspoke or misunderstood a question then to outright lie, and everytime Naegi can avoid the question or give a vague enough answer, the less credible Phoenix appears to beButtersamuri said:
As for the third note, how can evidence be more credible/reliable than a confession? Even still, Naegi can lie and say he was mind controlled to lie by Phoenix, or that the confession was coerced
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We keep talking as though facts are objective truths that, once heard, are 100% believed without any contradiction. As Dr. Rebecca Tan once said, "The truth is, facts don't speak for themselves." Facts are interpreted by the listener and are either believed or disregarded as misinformation, bringing me back to what I said about the second point
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Executing a person for peeping on the bath.
Very extreme and I think Monokuma, even if he's a headmaster, he might like peeping. Wahaha
Very extreme and I think Monokuma, even if he's a headmaster, he might like peeping. Wahaha
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Phoenix takes this.
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How?LSirLancelotDuLacl said:
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Again, I demand those who vote Phoenix to explain why he would willingly act so out of character, where he doesn't defend anyone and also lets himself be willingly blackmailed to only protect himself and somehow supposedly still shows peak performance without mercy or being conflicted about it, not to mention willingly sending someone to be executed for mere peeping.
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