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Phoenix Wright vs Makoto Naegi, in Class Trial

ElixirBlue said:
@Buttersamuri Er... let me point out the key differences between the 5th trial and the 1st trial, both times Makoto's luck was actively used.
  • The 5th trial was different from other trials, as the truth did not matter. Monokuma was going to kill someone, which was originally Kirigiri, and the true murder wasn't in the room. Makoto then took it upon himself to hide his key information that could have lead to Kirigiri's death. Monokuma knew this and got angry at Makoto when Makoto didn't say anything and kept questioning the trial. He then on the spot, switched the accused to Makoto.
In the 5th trial, the truth did not matter and it was set up by the master mind. Makoto's luck could only last minute save Makoto from that.

  • However, the 1st trial is something people tend to over look when it comes to Makoto's luck. Before the murder happened, Makoto was put into the only room that had a broke bathroom doorknob. It wasn't intentional by anyone and Monokuma laughed at Makoto's misfortune. Later, Sayaka was murdered in Makoto's bathroom. They previously switched places because Sayaka was originally planned to pin her murder on Makoto.
Sayaka was murdered instead and the murderer thought he was in Sayaka's room, as Sayaka tricked him before hand, so he broke down the door. All the girls have locks in their bathrooms but the guy's didn't. The murderer couldn't open the door and thought it was lock when it was just difficult to open.

Long story short, the difficult-to-open doorknob was the key evidence to prove Makoto wasn't the murderer. Showing how Makoto's luck can protect Makoto by disguising itself as misfortune.
Click to expand...
OML I totally forgot about the doorknob
 
I'm going to vote for Phoenix. For one, his case is... well, true. So he has the advantage of actually being correct.

For two, Makoto very rarely has had to defend compared to attack. Makoto is usually the one throwing the accusations, rather than, say, defending himself from a crime he actually did.

Phoenix is far more experience and would tear apart any holes within Makoto's argument- considering the Class Trial's lack of, well, rules, Phoenix would have a field day with "OBJECTIONS!" and similar interrupting antics.

For Phoenix's adaptability, better lawyer knowledge, and a better case, period, Phoenix should win this.
 
Moritzva said:
I'm going to vote for Phoenix. For one, his case is... well, true. So he has the advantage of actually being correct.
For two, Makoto very rarely has had to defend compared to attack. Makoto is usually the one throwing the accusations, rather than, say, defending himself from a crime he actually did.

Phoenix is far more experience and would tear apart any holes within Makoto's argument- considering the Class Trial's lack of, well, rules, Phoenix would have a field day with "OBJECTIONS!" and similar interrupting antics.

For Phoenix's adaptability, better lawyer knowledge, and a better case, period, Phoenix should win this.
Click to expand...
Yeah, but Makoto would survive the execution, possibly turning this into an incon.
 
Listentomyrhytm said:
Moritzva said:
I'm going to vote for Phoenix. For one, his case is... well, true. So he has the advantage of actually being correct.
For two, Makoto very rarely has had to defend compared to attack. Makoto is usually the one throwing the accusations, rather than, say, defending himself from a crime he actually did.

Phoenix is far more experience and would tear apart any holes within Makoto's argument- considering the Class Trial's lack of, well, rules, Phoenix would have a field day with "OBJECTIONS!" and similar interrupting antics.

For Phoenix's adaptability, better lawyer knowledge, and a better case, period, Phoenix should win this.
Click to expand...
Yeah, but Makoto would survive the execution, possibly turning this into an incon.
Click to expand...
No he wouldn't.

The only time he survived was when he got outside help, which was not luck.
 
Moritzva said:
Listentomyrhytm said:
Moritzva said:
I'm going to vote for Phoenix. For one, his case is... well, true. So he has the advantage of actually being correct.
For two, Makoto very rarely has had to defend compared to attack. Makoto is usually the one throwing the accusations, rather than, say, defending himself from a crime he actually did.

Phoenix is far more experience and would tear apart any holes within Makoto's argument- considering the Class Trial's lack of, well, rules, Phoenix would have a field day with "OBJECTIONS!" and similar interrupting antics.

For Phoenix's adaptability, better lawyer knowledge, and a better case, period, Phoenix should win this.
Click to expand...
Yeah, but Makoto would survive the execution, possibly turning this into an incon.
Click to expand...
No he wouldn't.
The only time he survived was when he got outside help, which was not luck.
Click to expand...
So, you count all other times Makoto survived possible death as outside help? Is a banana peel outside help?
 
I'm gonna say. I'd Death is required. Inconclusive. Since it's a battle of intell. But if death isn't required. Phoenix
 
How many times did Makoto survive death again? Since there was, like, a doorknob? And that's it? A single doorknob being broken in advance? That's far from, say, Nagito's luck.

Not to mention, even when Makoto survived his execution, he would of starved to death without outside help. So... Phoenix still wins, if he survives, since no outside help.
 
Well, as far as I can remember, he also survived getting thrown a wrench at his head with a lot of strength just by slipping on a banana peel and completely avoid it. I think there were other times, also here's a comparison between Nagito's luck and Makoto

Nagito's Luck: Unfortunate thing happens, then fortunate thing happens and the cycle of never ending fortunate and unfortunate things happens.

Naegi's Luck: Basically plot armor but justified because Makoto's luck.
 
Actually there was that time that one girl secretly throws a knife at him and he avoided to by tripping on some paper. Albeit it wasn't an execution. So doesn't fully apply here
 
 
Which is stupid and contradicted by literally everything.

Nagito says a lot of stuff. The guy's basically insane. He's not exactly factual evidence.
 
Moritzva said:
Which is stupid and contradicted by literally everything.
Nagito says a lot of stuff. The guy's basically insane. He's not exactly factual evidence.
Click to expand...
Nagito being insane doesn't mean he's incorrect. As far as I'm concerned currently, Naegi's feats and Nagito's statement concretely confirm that his luck is superior

 
Not to mention, Nagito has basically zero security or confidence in his own abilities when he talks to others. He's always talking about how he's "just lucky" and shit.

Essentially, Nagito's full of shit.
 
Add to those feats the doorknob event and him winning the lottery, and that's all the proof I need
 
-Slipping on a piece of paper <<<<<<< Basically everything else Nagito does.
-Required outside help. Can't happen here. Even if it does, he starves to death. Plus, outside help discredits luck.
-That... What? Is that even luck?
-^
Seriously, only one of these feats can be seen as purely luck, compared to Nagito's passive bullshittery.
 
Naegi caused an entire roadside multi-car crash pile-up to stop a single robber. It can be as bullshit. It doesnt show itself as often.

Also Naegi surviving the execution was his luck, if Kirigiri gets exexuted by the exact same method Alter Ego doesn't come to save her ass
 
BakiHanma18 said:
Add to those feats the doorknob event and him winning the lottery, and that's all the proof I need
Click to expand...
Yea, uh

None of those are even close to Nagito.

And one of them actively proves that Makoto loses, since he required outside help, twice, to survive an execution.
 
Edwardtruong2006 said:
Naegi caused an entire roadside multi-car crash to stop a single robber. It can be as bullshit. It doesnt show itself as often.

Also Naegi surviving the execution was his luck, if Kirigiri gets exexuted by the exact same method Alter Ego doesn't come to save her ass
Click to expand...
"Not appearing as much" So... less lucky than Nagito?

Still required outside help, which not only means it was only partially luck, but means it also can't happen here.
 
Moritzva said:
:-Slipping on a piece of paper <<<<<<< Basically everything else Nagito does.
-Required outside help. Can't happen here. Even if it does, he starves to death. Plus, outside help discredits luck.
-That... What? Is that even luck?
-^
Seriously, only one of these feats can be seen as purely luck, compared to Nagito's passive bullshittery.
Click to expand...
Slipping on a piece of paper=not dying, that's downplay to say accidentally avoiding death without even realizing is just "slipping on a piece of paper"

Lottery, doorknob, Munakata, and the paper were all by himself, how would he starve to death, and outside help does not "discredit luck".

Everything I've mentioned has been luck

Nagito has SN luck, but his luck can be easily read and dealt with by Junko, whereas Naegi's luck even bypasses her Analysis
 
Slipping on a piece of paper

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Making a forking landslide out of a pebble.

Nagito isn't a remotely fair comparison to Makoto. Even Makoto's best luck feats are casual as **** compared to Nagito.

It doesn't matter that he survived the previous execution- for one, it required Kirigiri and Alter Ego to both save his ass, which can't happen here.

Even if we wank his luck, that still leaves Phoenix winning more times than not; either Phoenix wins, or Makoto survives in the bottom of a waste bin.

Vote Phoenix.
 
Naegi's luck isn't worse then Nagito's... It's more unpredictable as Junko puts it.

Naegi's luck still saves his ass multiple times near-death (Tripping when Junko threw a wrench at him, a fire extinguisher randomly exploding when Kyosuke was gonna cut his head off, etc.) So it should work before death
 
Moritzva said:
Slipping on a piece of paper
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Making a forking landslide out of a pebble.

Nagito isn't a remotely fair comparison to Makoto. Even Makoto's best luck feats are casual as **** compared to Nagito.

It doesn't matter that he survived the previous execution- for one, it required Kirigiri and Alter Ego to both save his ass, which can't happen here.

Even if we wank his luck, that still leaves Phoenix winning more times than not; either Phoenix wins, or Makoto survives in the bottom of a waste bin.

Vote Phoenix.
Click to expand...
Killing a few people not even attacking you<<<<<<<<<accidentally avoiding your own death without even realizing

Without the lottery, Naegi would've likely died in the worst event in human history, without the doorknob, the blackened would've won the very first trial, without the paper, he'd have died before Danganronpa even began, and without his luck, Munakata would've sliced him to piece. Naegi's luck, outside help or no, has consistently saved him from death time and time again

Phoenix almost absolutely can't win. Naegi will almost certainly survive the execution, even IF he gets found guilty, and there's nothing stopping him from getting out of the waste chute, assuming his execution is even the same.
 
Feats disprove that on so many levels.

For one, Nagito's seems a **** ton less predictable, as it's good and bad.

For two, Nagito's feats are just bigger altogether.
 
"Without the lottery he would of died"

Alright, now we're reaching. That's like saying that Kirigiri is supernaturally lucky since if she wasn't the Ultimate Detective, she would of died.

Has this debate really devolved into "oh technically he survives the execution" instead of actually debating the class trial?
 
Moritzva said:
Feats disprove that on so many levels.
For one, Nagito's seems a **** ton less predictable, as it's good and bad.

For two, Nagito's feats are just bigger altogether.
Click to expand...
Yet, for one, in the canon material Junko has stated she can predict Nagito and not Naegi, and nothing has happened or been said to disprove that

What it "seems" is speculation and headcanon

Nagito's feats aren't better, they are just more active in the world. Good things happening to someone is lucky, but preserving one's own life is the most important factor, and Nagito's luck when it comes to saving his life has proven to be fallible
 
Nagito's luck is inherently more predictable than Naegi's due to the fact that it always benefits him and with the bad luck happening to the people he cares about. Junko as the Ultimate Analyst can easily predict that

Naegi's luck benefits him whenever the hell it feels like it. It doesnt really have a set proc for triggering. Nagito's luck triggers whenever something can benefit him.
 
...

Yes they are.

Nagito's feats are literal magnitudes away from Makoto. If Luck could be tiered? Makoto would be Tier 6 to Nagito's Tier 3. I really have no clue how else to put this, the difference is beyond massive.
 
Moritzva said:
"Without the lottery he would of died"
Alright, now we're reaching. That's like saying that Kirigiri is supernaturally lucky since if she wasn't the Ultimate Detective, she would of died.

Has this debate really devolved into "oh technically he survives the execution" instead of actually debating the class trial?
Click to expand...
Distinction with a MAJOR difference. Kirigiri wasn't at Hope's Peak specifically because she was lucky, she was scouted because she had a skill. Naegi being there is SPECIFICALLY attributed to his luck.

Guilty and execution is a loss. At best, Phoenix can get an incon
 
Edwardtruong2006 said:
Nagito's luck is inherently more predictable than Naegi's due to the fact that it always benefits him and with the bad luck happening to the people he cares about. Junko as the Ultimate Analyst can easily predict that

Naegi's luck benefits him whenever the hell it feels like it. It doesnt really have a set proc for triggering. Nagito's luck triggers whenever something can benefit him.
Click to expand...
Okay, that's a fair way to look at it. It doesn't mean Naegi's luck is equal or comparable to Nagito's; just less predictable.
 
Moritzva said:
...
Yes they are.

Nagito's feats are literal magnitudes away from Makoto. If Luck could be tiered? Makoto would be Tier 6 to Nagito's Tier 3. I really have no clue how else to put this, the difference is beyond massive.
Click to expand...
"Nagito's luck is better" isn't an argument
 
If this debate is honestly devolving into "Well technically if he didn't win the lottery, he would of died in the worst event!" then I have no interest in debating. I'm just going to leave my vote for Phoenix and go work on something, such as another Fate tabletop thingy.
 
Moritzva said:
If this debate is honestly devolving into "Well technically if he didn't win the lottery, he would of died in the worst event!" then I have no interest in debating. I'm just going to leave my vote for Phoenix and go work on something, such as another Fate tabletop thingy.
Click to expand...
K
 
My last note is that I have, beyond any shadow of doubt, proven Nagito's luck vastly superior. So, Makoto dies, or is incapped for 24 hours.
 
Moritzva said:
My last note is that I have, beyond any shadow of doubt, proven Nagito's luck vastly superior. So, Makoto dies, or is incapped for 24 hours.
Click to expand...
Haven't proved that at all, but okay
 
When Nagito and Naegi meet, Nagito literally says that Naegi's luck "far exceeds his own".

Junko also said she can't predict Makoto's luck like she can of Nagito's.
 
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