Phoenix Wright vs Makoto Naegi, in Class Trial

[ElixirBlue]

Yeah, but Makoto would survive the execution, possibly turning this into an incon.
No he wouldn't.

The only time he survived was when he got outside help, which was not luck.

No, it was luck, because that same outside help didn't save Kirigiri's life when Kirigiri was made to be executed in the same trial at the same time when Makoto was going to be executed.

That same outside help didn't have favorites between Kirigiri and Makoto.

My last note is that I have, beyond any shadow of doubt, proven Nagito's luck vastly superior. So, Makoto dies, or is incapped for 24 hours.

Nagito's luck got analyzed in the 5th trial of the 2nd game by the students, which is how they found the killer. Junko, the smartest person on the planet, stated she could not predict Makoto's luck. Junko's main power is being able to analyze everything, people, powers, how things can go into her favor.

 

[ElixirBlue]

Junko, The smartest person in the planet, stating she can't predict Makoto's luck 0:43

It's even shown how Junko thinks of both Nagito and Makoto. Junko isn't impressed by Nagito but she gets foaming in the mouth when Makoto is around because she knows Makoto is the only one who can make her lose. And she likes that.

 

[Moritzva]

Dude, calm down, that's 5 posts in a row.

 

[ElixirBlue]

Dude, calm down, that's 5 posts in a row.

There were a number of things I wanted to reply to.

 

[Moritzva]

Then edit one or two posts.

 

[BakiHanma18]

Solid points. This leaves us with substantial evidence in favor of execution not really being entirely possible with Naegi, but that's even IF Phoenix can sway the votes against him dispite all of Phoenix's disadvantages

 

[Buttersamuri]

Phoenix is very good at solid proof. They won't ignore evidence and contradictions that are solid. Phoenix is very good at working with basically nothing. And he usually is going against people with years of experience making up total BS a and fake evidence. Proving it all wrong, proving his clients innocence, and then proving who's guilty.

 

[BakiHanma18]

Phoenix is very good at solid proof. They won't ignore evidence and contradictions that are solid. Phoenix is very good at working with basically nothing. And he usually is going against people with years of experience making up total BS a and fake evidence. Proving it all wrong, proving his clients innocence, and then proving who's guilty.

In actual prosecution, Phoenix has the advantage 10/10, in investigation, I personally am more inclined to go 50/50, but the problems Phoenix face are Phoenix will have to adapt to Class Trials (no matter how quickly he can adapt, if he has to adapt, he's at an innate disadvantage at the beginning), he's going up against Naegi, who has been accused of being the mastermind in a situation where everyone turned against him, yet with his luck and emphatic manipulation, he was able to get in everyone's good graces again (Danganronpa IF), and incredibly strong emphatic manipulation on people that already trust him

 

[Moritzva]

Back on the actual debate, alright.

You see, it's a lot easier to defend yourself when you are right. Of course Makoto can prove he's not the mastermind; he isn't. Phoenix not only has to prove what's actually true, which means his case is factually correct, but has proven even more extraordinary and weird things.

 

[Jinsye]

Side-note, Naegi's luck can just outright give extremely lucky people incredibly bad luck. So that could be an issue for Phoenix.

 

[BakiHanma18]

Back on the actual debate, alright.
You see, it's a lot easier to defend yourself when you are right. Of course Makoto can prove he's not the mastermind; he isn't. Phoenix not only has to prove what's actually true, which means his case is factually correct, but has proven even more extraordinary and weird things.

However, when they decided to believe him, evidence dictated he WAS the mastermind, showing a willingness to believe Naegi over the evidence

 

[ElixirBlue]

Back on the actual debate, alright.

You see, it's a lot easier to defend yourself when you are right. Of course Makoto can prove he's not the mastermind; he isn't. Phoenix not only has to prove what's actually true, which means his case is factually correct, but has proven even more extraordinary and weird things.

No. Phoenix has to prove Makoto is the one who peeked on the girls. Except there were two others who did the exact same thing and Makoto doesn't carry around physical evidence like the other two do.

 

[BakiHanma18]

Also true

 

[Moritzva]

No. Phoenix has to prove Makoto is the one who peeked on the girls. Except there were two others who did the exact same thing and Makoto doesn't carry around physical evidence like the other two do.

Did he do it, yes or no?

If he did, he's pretty damn ******.

 

[ElixirBlue]

No. Phoenix has to prove Makoto is the one who peeked on the girls. Except there were two others who did the exact same thing and Makoto doesn't carry around physical evidence like the other two do.

Did he do it, yes or no?

If he did, he's pretty damn ******.

How would Phoenix pull it off? Makoto didn't carry anything with him and he moved nothing when he did the act. The ones could point to Makoto also did the exact same thing and they were carrying physical evidence that, by the nature of Makoto's luck, they could have left behind to indicate themselves.

 

[Moritzva]

Do we have nearly enough detail in the OP to debate exactly how the trial will go?

...no, we don't.

So we can't talk details since the OP doesn't have details.

The truth of the matter is, Makoto's defending himself from something that's true this time. Phoenix has a massive advantage off of this alone.

 

[ElixirBlue]

Phoenix's win trial comes from the complexity of the case. More complex the case, the more evidence and options Phoenix has to prove his case.

But this case is extremely simple. Walk in, peek, walk out. No physical interaction required Like a murder.

 

[Moritzva]

Where did you get any of that from? Phoenix being able to win complex trials is even more in his favor.

 

[ElixirBlue]

Where did you get any of that from? Phoenix being able to win complex trials is even more in his favor.

But this case isn't complex. It's a simple walk in, peek, walk out. No, "How was the body killed" or "what was the murder weapon".

I've already stated how Makoto can easily get away with this. Now, how can Phoenix get him?

 

[BakiHanma18]

No evidence left behind, familiarity with the system, a relationship with the voters, emphatic manipulation, SN luck, and decent at prosecution in his own right. That's what Naegi has going for him, so how does Phoenix overcome these

 

[Buttersamuri]

Phoenix won his first case purely through words. Contradictions. Ect. Words is a type of proof. And he has years of exposing people because of it. Only covered so well by geniuses like miles

 

[BakiHanma18]

Phoenix won his first case purely through words. Contradictions. Ect. Words is a type of proof. And he has years of exposing people because of it. Only covered so well by geniuses like miles

Emphatic manipulation and a relationship with the voters counters that, no?

 

[Buttersamuri]

No. Because his empathy manipulation is more so removing Despair. Making people feel hopeful. And Relationships have nothing on pure evidence. Like the time they "proved" him guilty.

 

[BakiHanma18]

No. Because his empathy manipulation is more so removing Despair. Making people feel hopeful. And Relationships have nothing on pure evidence. Like the time they "proved" him guilty.

EM fo make them feel hope in him, and what's he going to say to make them doubt the relationship? I thought these were just words and not proof

 

[Buttersamuri]

All he did was make them feel hopefully about going outside. Nothing to that powerful of a degree to specifically put hope in himself specifically

And words that contradict. Him making contradictions is proof that can prove him

 

[ElixirBlue]

No. Because his empathy manipulation is more so removing Despair. Making people feel hopeful. And Relationships have nothing on pure evidence. Like the time they "proved" him guilty.

Well, if you are talking about the 5th trial, that time, Makoto was caught off guard by Monokuma and the trial closed so suddenly that Makoto couldn't use his Empathetic Manipulation at all. There wasn't time.

 

[BakiHanma18]

He can generate hope in anything he wants

• Knocked his friends out of their depression from losing Sayaka.
• Persuaded The Great Gozu to eat and soothed Hina's heart, despite the fact that the words were not directed towards her.
• Allowed him to knock Hiro, Hina, Kyoko, Syo and Byakuya out of their despair that was caused by Junko, effectively turning said despair into hope.
• Induced hope inside Junko, which caused her to kill herself in a fit of despair.

 

[BakiHanma18]

So can Phoenix counter EM?

 

[Buttersamuri]

Yes. With facts, logic, and will for the truth. Some of what Makoto has done isn't even that impressive EM wise. Phoenix has inspired people, helped emotionally weak people, and convinced people to come out with the truth. Even Wendy who specifically hates Phoenix he has convinced to his side purely for the truth.

 

[ElixirBlue]

Yes. With facts, logic, and will for the truth. Some of what Makoto has done isn't even that impressive EM wise. Phoenix has inspired people, helped emotionally weak people, and convinced people to come out with the truth. Even Wendy who specifically hates Phoenix he has convinced to his side purely for the truth.

Yes, but has Phoenix ever did Empathic manipulation on a villain, like what Makoto was doing to Junko at the end of the 6th trial?

 

[Buttersamuri]

Technically yes. Wendy was all for claiming Who Phoenix defends as guilty.

 

[BakiHanma18]

Phoenix doesn't have EM, he has Social Influencing, which is like a weaker version of EM. Also, what facts, what logic, and his "will for truth" is counter by EM, as Naegi can use people's feeling to make Phoenix out to be the bad guy. If the Pygmalion effect sets in and "Phoenix is a bad guy" becomes an incorrigible believe, Phoenix's guilt becomes a self fulfilling prophecy in the eyes of those in the trial.

 

[Buttersamuri]

Make Phoenix look like a bad guy. Yeaaaaa no. He EM aid not nearly strong enough to make someone like Phoenix look bad. Phoenix is extremely morally upstanding

 

[ElixirBlue]

Yeah, Makoto's empathetic manipulation is pretty strong. One guy slips up about a color of gym clothes, a color only the killer would have known, Makoto instantly turns the entire trial against him.

A witness slips out information and Phoenix tries to do the same thing but "tsk tsk tsk, Mr. Wright. The witness misspoke and blah blah blah."

 

[BakiHanma18]

Make Phoenix look like a bad guy. Yeaaaaa no. He EM aid not nearly strong enough to make someone like Phoenix look bad. Phoenix is extremely morally upstanding

They wouldn't know that right off the bat, as they have every reason to trust Naegi, someone they know, and no reason to trust a stranger. While Phoenix will spend a few minutes figuring out the Class Trial system, Naegi can use EM to appeal to his classmates' Ethos and Pathos to develop the Pygmalion effect, effectively cancelling out Phoenix's logos arguments.

 

[Buttersamuri]

EM doesn't counter act hard facts. It matters who they think did it. And if there's evidence against him proving he was the likely one. And the odds of him using EM, especially so early is Meh at best.

 

[BakiHanma18]

EM doesn't counter act hard facts. It matters who they think did it. And if there's evidence against him proving he was the likely one. And the odds of him using EM, especially so early is Meh at best.

Yes it does. If he can appeal to their pathos and ethos and develop an incorrigible belief, no matter how logical the argument, the whole point of the Pygmalion effect is that they'll believe the entire argument is wrong. Feelings and emotions can't be disproved, so unless Phoenix has an answer for Naegi's Pygmalion, he's sure to lose

 

[ElixirBlue]

EM doesn't counter act hard facts. It matters who they think did it. And if there's evidence against him proving he was the likely one. And the odds of him using EM, especially so early is Meh at best.

And "hard facts" are there for Phoenix to use in this case? The only possible "hard facts" Phoenix could use is what the other two carry around with them, as Makoto can leave no "hard facts".

Besides, Phoenix is always carrying "hard facts" going into the end of the trial but can't use them unless the opportunity present themselves. If Makoto with his EM cuts off opportunities for Phoenix to present his evidence, then it's pointless.

 

[BakiHanma18]

Evidence doesn't even matter. Even if he had any, they'll think it's tampered with or there's more evidence that exonerates Naegi and Phoenix is cherry picking evidence to convict Naegi because of the Pygmalion effect. They already have a negative impression of Phoenix, and they got it from a trusted and reliable source. The whole reason it's an incorrigible belief is that no amount of facts and evidence will stop them from explaining it away or making excuses because they already have the preconceived notion that Naegi is good and Phoenix is bad.

 

[ElixirBlue]

Evidence doesn't even matter. Even if he had any, they'll think it's tampered with or there's more evidence that exonerates Naegi and Phoenix is cherry picking evidence to convict Naegi because of the Pygmalion effect. They already have a negative impression of Phoenix, and they got it from a trusted and reliable source. The whole reason it's an incorrigible belief is that no amount of facts and evidence will stop them from explaining it away or making excuses because they already have the preconceived notion that Naegi is good and Phoenix is bad.

"they already have the preconceived notion that Naegi is good and Phoenix is bad." yeah, I wouldn't state that as a reason for Phoenix to loss, as Phoenix has conquered those situations time and time again.