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Okay, I'll probably reply in a few hours.
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Persona 5 DOWNGRADES!
- Thread starter ProfessorLord
- Start date
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I'm not going to comment on the palace feats for now, but Yaldy being Low 2-C/2-C makes a lot of sense.
Would that scale to anyone other than Ren w/Sataneal?
Would that scale to anyone other than Ren w/Sataneal?
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The cast did fight his weaker forms and win.
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I suggest we wait for Sera's large post she is working on.
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I don't beleive his weaker forms should scale to his strongest forms, unless both forms are capable of the 2-C feat.Matthew Schroeder said:
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Wasn't the cast not even harming Yaldy in the slightest when he hit his full form?
If all they did was survive casual attacks I'd say it's a bit of an outlier to say the rest of the cast is within legue of Ren w/Satan.
If all they did was survive casual attacks I'd say it's a bit of an outlier to say the rest of the cast is within legue of Ren w/Satan.
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Alright, so in order to break this down we need to look at some concepts individually before connecting the dots.
Shadows
Shadows are essentially beings born from the Collective Unconscious of humanity. Every supernatural being in the Persona series is connected to a Shadow somehow. However, how are Shadows exactly connected to Personas and Persona Users? Well, we learn from Metis exactly how.
So here we clearly are told that when a normal person's emotions become too much from them handle face to face, they break loose and become the generic shadows we see in every Persona game. However, when a person confronts their inner demon and tame their shadows, they awaken their Persona. In Persona 5 we see each Phantom Thief's eyes turn golden (sans Futaba) and a voice in their head when they awaken their Persona. This is them confronting their Shadow selves in the subconscious.
So what is a Persona?
A persona is the manifestation of someone's personality, their inner self, their heart. Personas are similar to Shadows. Shadows are malevolent manifestations of one's inner thoughts, while a Persona is a manifestation of the same feelings but tamed and trained. This will be very important later.
So we've established what shadows and personas are, yes? So, have you ever noticed that in Personas 3, 4, and 5, all the supernatural stuff happens in some other realm or place and not exactly in the human world? Yes. Be it Tartarus during the Dark Hour, the Midnight Channel, or the Metaverse, they all exist in the same overarching space that is, like the Velvet Room, a place existing in between dream and reality; mind and matter. In the depths of human hearts, shared with all people, there is a domain where mythological archetypes dwell, and they grant an influence over an individual's personality development. Anecdotes of mythological divinities the world over probably exist because of that, so one could say that gods and demons exist not in Heaven and Hell but in the hearts of humanity (sounds very similar to SMT doesn't it…). Personas even have an influence on physical and mental abilities, making their users superhumans, for example giving them mastery over weapons or resistance to terror and madness and all the crazy feats we've seen from Persona 1 to Persona 5.
Persona 2: Innocent Si
Persona 3 FES
Persona 3 Drama CD: Moonlight
Persona 4
Persona 5
Palaces
Now, what are palaces? According to our trusty cat Morgana, a palace is a world in which one's distorted desires have materialized. These places exist in the Metaverse. Why? I'll get to that later as it connects to a common occurrence across the recent games.
Palaces are a manifestation of "distortion", strong negative and corrupt thoughts that warp the perceptions of people into a hazard for themselves and others (for example, Sae sees her profession as nothing more than a game, a gamble to be precise, so in her palace, the people are gamblers playing casino games. Kaneshiro sees people as nothing more than living transactions. So in his palace everyone is notably a walking ATM). According to Morgana, most people's negative and corrupt thoughts are blended together into the Metaverse in Mementos, which is a Palace for all of humanity. The prison of regression which according to Yaldabaoth is a prison humanity wishes for themselves. However, particularly corrupt individuals manifest personal Palaces that is solely inhabited by their Shadow Self. This is extremely important because there is a quote from Shido that makes people believe Yald imprisoned them in a palace, he did not. Shido said their corrupt nature segregated them from Mementos. It is said that Mementos spawns places for those with desires too independent from those in the prison. Again it doesn't explicitly state that Yald created and imprisoned them there since we know people create their own palaces. What happened is honestly and very likely a plot hole of sorts or needed to be explained better because all evidence points at Shadow Selves creating their palaces rather than Yaldabaoth. The Holy Grail likely imprisoned them in the palace so they may never escape but the source of the palace is the Shadow Self/inner self of the host, not Yaldabaoth. After all Yald himself didn't create Mementos. He himself said that humanity created that prison for themselves. He's just the God/Administrator.
Also it is very important to remember not all personalized Palaces are formed by corrupt individuals, as Futaba's Palace is fueled by Futaba Sakura's suicidal thoughts and suppressed memories of her mother. This suggests that extreme negative emotions can also cause a Palace to form. So the Yaldabaoth theory of locking people in palaces is false. Now all Palaces draw in Shadows, which help to protect them and fend off intruders and cognitive existences projected by the host. The stronger the person's corruption, the stronger the Shadows will be in the Palace. The Shadow self essentially has near-complete control over their palace but Morgana tells us that there are places within the palace that are less influenced than others (such as our handy dandy safe rooms for saving) and it seems that the AOE of their palace also plays into effect here. For example Futaba's palace encompasses an entire desert, but it seems only the pyramid and the surrounding area are directly under her control i.e. reality warping capabilities. Palaces are also quite similar to the TV Worlds in Persona 4.
Palaces and Personas
Morgana clearly states that a Persona user cannot have a palace, because palaces, which are essentially the extensions of a person's Shadow self, are born from distorted desires and repressed feelings. Personas are those same feelings but mastered and tamed, this brings us to Futaba. When Futaba entered her own palace Morgana said that's not at all a good thing. We weren't ever told why though but after Futaba awakens her persona he says that a person awakening to their persona in their own palace is bad. Why? Because the palace will now collapse. Futaba did not have her heart stolen, so why did the palace collapse? Because her palace and her persona are the same thing. They were born from the same emotions, the same power of the heart that drives every supernatural feat in the persona series. It stands to reason if someone's heart is powerful enough to manifest a pyramid sized tomb because of her suicidal thoughts, yet those same emotions of resentment and anger towards the adults who conspired against her and her mother, than her persona and palace are the same thing. The palace is the result of Futaba running away from those feelings and contemplating suicide, the Persona is the result of her confronting those feelings head on. Not wanting death for herself, but a resolve to get revenge from her mom.
Joker is similar in that his heart was so powerful, it changed the Velvet Room into a prison. Yes people can claim Yald imprisoned him there and he technically did but Yald himself said that the Velvet Room reflects the heart of the visitor. To reiterate, in Persona 5, the Velvet Room's appearance mirrors how the protagonist and the other Phantom Thieves of Hearts feel imprisoned by the rules and expectations of society and turn to criminal acts to fulfill their desires for freedom. This is very similar to how palaces are shaped (not formed). So to entertain on this idea one more time. Even if Yald created and imprisoned the bosses in their palaces, they are the ones who shaped their palaces into what they appear to be and function as.
Final Bosses Explained
Remember when I asked why palaces exist in the Metaverse? Well this is because the Metaverse is just another incarnation of the "Shadow World", my fanon term for the "place where mythological archetypes dwell". The shadow world in each game is the collective subconscious of the human race. However, each manifestation is different, based on how it was summoned in the first place. Hence, while there are so many similarities, each incarnation has a slightly different style and rules.
Each incarnation of the shadow world (as well as the events of P2, which are not quite the same) has been apparently the fault of some human group or agency before eventually being blamed / attributed to a 'god-like' supernatural being of some persuasion. However, the series heavily implies that there are no gods not created from the Sea of Souls. Or in other words: There are no gods or demons except of our own making. This is SMT lore as well for the most part.
So: The collective unconscious created Philemon, Nyartholep, Nyx, Izanami, and Yaldabaoth -- along with all the other mythical and religious figures that typically reside in the subconscious world. Each fills a niche, a purpose in the human psyche. We can credit them with good things, or blame them for bad things. But ultimately, humans are at the core of it.
The only unclear factor appears to be the Velvet Room, which appears to stand apart in some ways. (And regularly referred to as 'between' the conscious and unconscious.) However, it does consistently manifest in order to 'balance' out the problems created by humans trying to use the power, so maybe it is formed by some kind of instinctual survival trait in humans. It is also clearly formed on similar principles to the shadow world, based on how it changes itself for each protagonist.
Tartarus was created as a result of experimentation gone wrong, it is also the area where Humanity's collective death wish attempts to climb up and touch Nyx to summon The Fall.
The TV World is a place Izanami created to determine humanity's wishes, as Humans often lie and avert their eyes to the truth. It allows someone to be all out and open with their feelings and nothing will hide it away.
The Metaverse is a place where your inner desires take root, and twisted and distorted desires form Palaces. Ultimately, it begins to subvert reality itself as what humans desire (being free of responsibility) begins to come out to the real world instead of being locked up in mementos.
These areas are different, but similar as they are reflections of the Collective Unconscious. Most likely, with the defeat of Nyarlathotep and the Departure of Philemon, these constructs are allowed to take place. Maybe it's similar to how the world was beginning to shape itself based on rumors in Persona 2.
Humanity is so strong, that their belief warps the world and even creates additional ones based on their unconscious desires. After all, Nya and Phile were in a bet to determine whether or not humanity would ascend to enlightenment or destroy themselves in Chaos.
Summary
That's all for now, I'll let this marinate before we continue. There's a lot more to take in and I've decided it'd be best to make an explanation blog once I've finished PQ2 because Persona 1 and 2 have some things I want to discuss that may reflect om 3, 4, and 5, but I want to focus on 5 per this revision being a out Persona 5, not Persona in general. I hope this is coherent enough, I'm busy with other things and I ended up typing this for two hours...
Shadows
Shadows are essentially beings born from the Collective Unconscious of humanity. Every supernatural being in the Persona series is connected to a Shadow somehow. However, how are Shadows exactly connected to Personas and Persona Users? Well, we learn from Metis exactly how.
| Shadows are the lower parts of the psyche everyone has... Suppressed human thoughts given physical form. When people are unable to face their darker selves, they break loose, free from all control. But sometimes, humans with special awareness can tame their Shadows... Those are Persona-users. | ||
~ Metis - Persona 3 FES |
So what is a Persona?
A persona is the manifestation of someone's personality, their inner self, their heart. Personas are similar to Shadows. Shadows are malevolent manifestations of one's inner thoughts, while a Persona is a manifestation of the same feelings but tamed and trained. This will be very important later.
So we've established what shadows and personas are, yes? So, have you ever noticed that in Personas 3, 4, and 5, all the supernatural stuff happens in some other realm or place and not exactly in the human world? Yes. Be it Tartarus during the Dark Hour, the Midnight Channel, or the Metaverse, they all exist in the same overarching space that is, like the Velvet Room, a place existing in between dream and reality; mind and matter. In the depths of human hearts, shared with all people, there is a domain where mythological archetypes dwell, and they grant an influence over an individual's personality development. Anecdotes of mythological divinities the world over probably exist because of that, so one could say that gods and demons exist not in Heaven and Hell but in the hearts of humanity (sounds very similar to SMT doesn't it…). Personas even have an influence on physical and mental abilities, making their users superhumans, for example giving them mastery over weapons or resistance to terror and madness and all the crazy feats we've seen from Persona 1 to Persona 5.
Persona 2: Innocent Si
| An imposter, born out of our rumors, isn't it...? It's just like what happened with our Shadows. Another "self" that was created in the minds of others. "People only know about themselves through how others perceive them". The existence of our "ego" originates in others. We compare ourselves to others, and we are conscious of how our image is perceived when we are among others. That's when "we" really start to be created. I think that means for every person we meet, we have yet another "self" formed out of their perceptions. | ||
~ Maya Amano |
| Personas and Shadows are the same thing. That's why you're able to fight them in the first place. Did you all think that Shadows were mysterious invaders or something? Shadows are the lower parts of the psyche everyone has... Suppressed human thoughts given physical form. When people are unable to face their darker selves, they break loose, free from all control. But sometimes, humans with special awareness can tame their Shadows... Those are Persona-users. The Shadows' power affects time and even space... Through your Personas, your unspoken desires were manifested... | ||
~ Metis |
| Did you know? It's thought that Personas are actually the avatars of our wills. It's been theorized that since people's minds are what give them their forms, that's why they tend to take the forms of gods… The power to affect time and space. In other words, the heart's ability to draw a manifestation of itself into reality. Of course that power will inevitably resemble a person's true self, wouldn't it? | ||
~ Mysterious Girl |
| A shadow is suppressed power, and when controlled by one's ego, it becomes a Persona... | ||
~ unofficial project document, read by Naoto Shirogane |
| Shadows are suppressed human thoughts given form… everybody has them inside. | ||
~ Teddie |
| Personas are the strength born from one's heart. | ||
~ Morgana |
Now, what are palaces? According to our trusty cat Morgana, a palace is a world in which one's distorted desires have materialized. These places exist in the Metaverse. Why? I'll get to that later as it connects to a common occurrence across the recent games.
Palaces are a manifestation of "distortion", strong negative and corrupt thoughts that warp the perceptions of people into a hazard for themselves and others (for example, Sae sees her profession as nothing more than a game, a gamble to be precise, so in her palace, the people are gamblers playing casino games. Kaneshiro sees people as nothing more than living transactions. So in his palace everyone is notably a walking ATM). According to Morgana, most people's negative and corrupt thoughts are blended together into the Metaverse in Mementos, which is a Palace for all of humanity. The prison of regression which according to Yaldabaoth is a prison humanity wishes for themselves. However, particularly corrupt individuals manifest personal Palaces that is solely inhabited by their Shadow Self. This is extremely important because there is a quote from Shido that makes people believe Yald imprisoned them in a palace, he did not. Shido said their corrupt nature segregated them from Mementos. It is said that Mementos spawns places for those with desires too independent from those in the prison. Again it doesn't explicitly state that Yald created and imprisoned them there since we know people create their own palaces. What happened is honestly and very likely a plot hole of sorts or needed to be explained better because all evidence points at Shadow Selves creating their palaces rather than Yaldabaoth. The Holy Grail likely imprisoned them in the palace so they may never escape but the source of the palace is the Shadow Self/inner self of the host, not Yaldabaoth. After all Yald himself didn't create Mementos. He himself said that humanity created that prison for themselves. He's just the God/Administrator.
Also it is very important to remember not all personalized Palaces are formed by corrupt individuals, as Futaba's Palace is fueled by Futaba Sakura's suicidal thoughts and suppressed memories of her mother. This suggests that extreme negative emotions can also cause a Palace to form. So the Yaldabaoth theory of locking people in palaces is false. Now all Palaces draw in Shadows, which help to protect them and fend off intruders and cognitive existences projected by the host. The stronger the person's corruption, the stronger the Shadows will be in the Palace. The Shadow self essentially has near-complete control over their palace but Morgana tells us that there are places within the palace that are less influenced than others (such as our handy dandy safe rooms for saving) and it seems that the AOE of their palace also plays into effect here. For example Futaba's palace encompasses an entire desert, but it seems only the pyramid and the surrounding area are directly under her control i.e. reality warping capabilities. Palaces are also quite similar to the TV Worlds in Persona 4.
Palaces and Personas
Morgana clearly states that a Persona user cannot have a palace, because palaces, which are essentially the extensions of a person's Shadow self, are born from distorted desires and repressed feelings. Personas are those same feelings but mastered and tamed, this brings us to Futaba. When Futaba entered her own palace Morgana said that's not at all a good thing. We weren't ever told why though but after Futaba awakens her persona he says that a person awakening to their persona in their own palace is bad. Why? Because the palace will now collapse. Futaba did not have her heart stolen, so why did the palace collapse? Because her palace and her persona are the same thing. They were born from the same emotions, the same power of the heart that drives every supernatural feat in the persona series. It stands to reason if someone's heart is powerful enough to manifest a pyramid sized tomb because of her suicidal thoughts, yet those same emotions of resentment and anger towards the adults who conspired against her and her mother, than her persona and palace are the same thing. The palace is the result of Futaba running away from those feelings and contemplating suicide, the Persona is the result of her confronting those feelings head on. Not wanting death for herself, but a resolve to get revenge from her mom.
Joker is similar in that his heart was so powerful, it changed the Velvet Room into a prison. Yes people can claim Yald imprisoned him there and he technically did but Yald himself said that the Velvet Room reflects the heart of the visitor. To reiterate, in Persona 5, the Velvet Room's appearance mirrors how the protagonist and the other Phantom Thieves of Hearts feel imprisoned by the rules and expectations of society and turn to criminal acts to fulfill their desires for freedom. This is very similar to how palaces are shaped (not formed). So to entertain on this idea one more time. Even if Yald created and imprisoned the bosses in their palaces, they are the ones who shaped their palaces into what they appear to be and function as.
Final Bosses Explained
Remember when I asked why palaces exist in the Metaverse? Well this is because the Metaverse is just another incarnation of the "Shadow World", my fanon term for the "place where mythological archetypes dwell". The shadow world in each game is the collective subconscious of the human race. However, each manifestation is different, based on how it was summoned in the first place. Hence, while there are so many similarities, each incarnation has a slightly different style and rules.
Each incarnation of the shadow world (as well as the events of P2, which are not quite the same) has been apparently the fault of some human group or agency before eventually being blamed / attributed to a 'god-like' supernatural being of some persuasion. However, the series heavily implies that there are no gods not created from the Sea of Souls. Or in other words: There are no gods or demons except of our own making. This is SMT lore as well for the most part.
So: The collective unconscious created Philemon, Nyartholep, Nyx, Izanami, and Yaldabaoth -- along with all the other mythical and religious figures that typically reside in the subconscious world. Each fills a niche, a purpose in the human psyche. We can credit them with good things, or blame them for bad things. But ultimately, humans are at the core of it.
The only unclear factor appears to be the Velvet Room, which appears to stand apart in some ways. (And regularly referred to as 'between' the conscious and unconscious.) However, it does consistently manifest in order to 'balance' out the problems created by humans trying to use the power, so maybe it is formed by some kind of instinctual survival trait in humans. It is also clearly formed on similar principles to the shadow world, based on how it changes itself for each protagonist.
Tartarus was created as a result of experimentation gone wrong, it is also the area where Humanity's collective death wish attempts to climb up and touch Nyx to summon The Fall.
The TV World is a place Izanami created to determine humanity's wishes, as Humans often lie and avert their eyes to the truth. It allows someone to be all out and open with their feelings and nothing will hide it away.
The Metaverse is a place where your inner desires take root, and twisted and distorted desires form Palaces. Ultimately, it begins to subvert reality itself as what humans desire (being free of responsibility) begins to come out to the real world instead of being locked up in mementos.
These areas are different, but similar as they are reflections of the Collective Unconscious. Most likely, with the defeat of Nyarlathotep and the Departure of Philemon, these constructs are allowed to take place. Maybe it's similar to how the world was beginning to shape itself based on rumors in Persona 2.
Humanity is so strong, that their belief warps the world and even creates additional ones based on their unconscious desires. After all, Nya and Phile were in a bet to determine whether or not humanity would ascend to enlightenment or destroy themselves in Chaos.
Summary
That's all for now, I'll let this marinate before we continue. There's a lot more to take in and I've decided it'd be best to make an explanation blog once I've finished PQ2 because Persona 1 and 2 have some things I want to discuss that may reflect om 3, 4, and 5, but I want to focus on 5 per this revision being a out Persona 5, not Persona in general. I hope this is coherent enough, I'm busy with other things and I ended up typing this for two hours...
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Sewa slay.
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I can agree with that.
I have an issue with calcing feats such as making pocket dimensions, but that should be for another thread. I think GBE should suffice for the space palace.
I have an issue with calcing feats such as making pocket dimensions, but that should be for another thread. I think GBE should suffice for the space palace.
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I can do some pixelscalig to get Futana's pyramid rather easily.
I don't think that statement from Haru confirms much, it just defined what his palaces symbolizes. It's the ship sailing over a flooded Japan, not a flooded Japan that happens to have a ship on it.
I feel like calling Okumura an outlier is warrented unless you can point out more palaces or feats on that scale in that part of the game.
I don't think that statement from Haru confirms much, it just defined what his palaces symbolizes. It's the ship sailing over a flooded Japan, not a flooded Japan that happens to have a ship on it.
I feel like calling Okumura an outlier is warrented unless you can point out more palaces or feats on that scale in that part of the game.
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I can agree with that.
Would it be alright if I posted the pocket reality thread this weekend, and after that we can tackle the issue of palace feats?
Would it be alright if I posted the pocket reality thread this weekend, and after that we can tackle the issue of palace feats?
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- Thread starter
- #178
I'm having trouble understanding. I agree with and understand with a lot of the background lore you have in place but what are you specifically saying about palaces in relationship to AP? Can you help me out?
This is literally what I said in my argument (which you went on to reiterate in a more in-depth manner):
And while yes, it is like the "inverse" of a Persona in the sense that it's fueled by the same type of power (which is strong emotions/injustices as I understand it), there is no correlation between creating a palace out of distorted desires and attacking an enemy with punches and robots.
I might have missed it and it may be obvious, but how does anything you just said contradict my claim of correlation and the lack of it?
This is literally what I said in my argument (which you went on to reiterate in a more in-depth manner):
And while yes, it is like the "inverse" of a Persona in the sense that it's fueled by the same type of power (which is strong emotions/injustices as I understand it), there is no correlation between creating a palace out of distorted desires and attacking an enemy with punches and robots.
I might have missed it and it may be obvious, but how does anything you just said contradict my claim of correlation and the lack of it?
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Basically, the idea is even with the interpretation that they didn't create their own palace, they still have the power to reality warp it. So it should scale to the degree of the overall palace in which they are able to control. For example Kamoshida's castle rather than the entire district, Futaba's pyramid, instead of the whole desert, and supposedly Okumura's space station, rather than the space itself. Shido is weird but at least he can scale to endgame personas. Not sure about Sae though...
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- #180
So how does reality warping scale to attack potency? Why does them having the ability to reality warp their palace have anything to do with their strength???
Examples include erasing things out of existence, granting wishes, creating universes, creating/altering matter, time manipulation, spatial manipulation, etc.
Does this not literally describe what a shadow does to a palace?
Examples include erasing things out of existence, granting wishes, creating universes, creating/altering matter, time manipulation, spatial manipulation, etc.
Does this not literally describe what a shadow does to a palace?
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Because they utilize it offensively. This is a basic staple of the website. You're basically suggesting to have people be ranked as "Tier 8 via punching, Tier 2 via Reality Warping". It's pretty ridiculous.
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Because every feat ever performed in Persona is based on "mind creates reality". In Persona 2 the real world was being changed by rumors between people. Everything is about mental power. It's how Persona and MegaTen as a whole work. Plus the palace is literally the manifestation of their power, just distorted and untrained. Essentially, a stronger mind and resolve (in addition to bonds between people) is what drives every superhuman feat in Persona.
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We have it like that in numerous profiles.Matthew Schroeder said:
Nice appeal to tradition, though.
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- #184
Giorno Giovanna, Johnny Joestar, Reinhard Heydrich, Feedback, Adam Warlock, Matoi Sumeragi, Galactus (Marvel Comics), Thanos (Marvel Comics), etc etc etc etc etc.Matthew Schroeder said:
It's pretty ridiculous how you have 45k edits and you don't know that this is something we literally do to characters who have drastically different power levels via their hax then they do normally.
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How about instead of going "Appeal to Tradition" you make a thread on changing how we usually handle these feats.
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- #186
You can go through the profiles I listed instead of making a thread on changing it. It's something we already do and have been doing.
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Galactus, Thanos and Adam don't apply as it is through weapons. Giorno and Johnny are literally only with one technique each. Reinhard is also via his weapon, and Matoi is via summoning.
You literally entered chat to ask people for examples so that you could go "got'eeem" with me and didn't even bother analyzing any context for any of the characters you listed.
You literally entered chat to ask people for examples so that you could go "got'eeem" with me and didn't even bother analyzing any context for any of the characters you listed.
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Can you all stop being so snarky to one another? Like seriously, you've all been making snide and snarky comments to each other the moment Matt even so much as commented here.
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Literally this whole thread is a couple guys being super snarky at everyone who so much slightly disagrees at them which started because the OP couldn't believe Persona characters were stronger than Superman.
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This is still hard for me to analyze but I'll try. I think you're saying that the mind has the ability to control reality essentially, right?Sera EX said:
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Yes. It's a basic element of the entire series and it's frankly shocking that at 188 posts this is still not sold on you.
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- #193
How does having the ability to control reality with your mind correlate to your AP though? Shido doesn't harm you with his mind, he harms you by punching you. How does his reality warping scale to his AP?
You still haven't answered this, Sera is trying though.
You still haven't answered this, Sera is trying though.
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- #194
It's definitely a feat that can be correlated to the size of the palace, I don't understand why everyone is now arbitrarily applying it to every breath, step and punch Shido and other palace owners do.
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He harms via both. His power comes from his mind and his magic. He's not a guy with super strength unrelated to that. This is such a basic thing. I have been answering this since the very start of the thread but it's just been ignored time and again. Please stop pushing this.
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I think we're almost at eureka moment with this thread, lol.
His power comes from his... mind? Where does it say that he makes himself strong with his reality warping? I believe it's exactly that, that his shadow has super strength unrelated to whatever means he used to create the palace.
His power comes from his... mind? Where does it say that he makes himself strong with his reality warping? I believe it's exactly that, that his shadow has super strength unrelated to whatever means he used to create the palace.
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It's the very concept of what a Persona and a Shadow are. They are mental beings. There is no separation between their mental / warping / magical powers and them fighting you because they are not physical in the first place.
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Anyway. Prof. Lord and I have came to an agreement that palace management is more or less hax rather than physical AP (otherwise we'd have Okumura > Shido). So physically, they scale to the strongest personas that are available around their palace playthrough. Okumura scales to mid game personas. Shido scales to late game personas, etc.
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I am confused how you can go from agreeing that shadows = personas in functionality and them say a shadow can't scale to its own feat. That makes no sense? 5 minutes ago you were arguing something else.
This sounds more like an attempt at a compromise - innacurate as it is - just to not have conflict.
This sounds more like an attempt at a compromise - innacurate as it is - just to not have conflict.
