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Persona 5 DOWNGRADES!

I wouldn't call it a compromise, I literally asked Sera question after question and she said "yeah, yeah, yeah, right, yes, yeah". We just agree on the same thing... But I guess you could say I stole her heart.

Controlling and sustaining a palace is done through hax and yes, it would scale to the size of the palace so Okumura would be 4-C via reality warping.

However his reality warping does not apply to him and nobody has demonstrated that just like they can manipulate their own palace, they can make themselves 4-C and whatnot.

This makes more logical sense then just assuming "oh he has fancy powers that can create a solar system? guess his punch must be equal to a solar system!"
 
Nobody was talking about punching PLord, this is a misrepresentation of the opposite argument.

The opposite argument was stated by Sera very recently on a few posts above. That Shadows and Persona are mental beings and does everything they do are mental, there is no difference between it and punching between them.

Sera EX said:
He punches you yes, his shadow self punches you. The shadow that is created via your thoughts and is the manifestation of your mind. Shadows = Personas after all. The only difference is Personas are Shadows trained and mastered.
Click to expand...
She even agreed that Okumura has 4-B AP on chat just now . So it doesn't sound like you two agreed on anything just now.
 
If I'm one of the guys who came off as "snarky" that definitely wasn't my intention.

But for the most part I'm gonna kinda nope out of this thread from here. I trust Sera's knowledge here far more than my own rusty recollection of P5, and I'm glad there are enough people who know the series to carry on the discussion without me. I'll check back to see whatever the final verdict is though.
 
Sera has made the best arguments on the thread and is the most knowledgeable on Persona, and has the overwhelming majority of support. I say that who we should follow is clear
 
Sure, I'm fine with Sera deciding it.

Ultimately there's no doubt that Okumura has a 4-A feat for maintaing his palace. It's solar system sized, he maintains it with his reality warping, 4-A via reality warping.

He cannot however defend or attack with said reality warping. Being a cognitive being doesn't change that. He would need to literally demonstrate that he can in order for us to accept the fact that he can reality warp his own attack potency into 4-A levels.

I propose that Okumura be City Level (scaling from Futaba) but with 4-A reality warping hax (and it should be noted that he never weaponized said reality warping hax)

Joker fighting Okumura would be a city level feat for him, since he did not interact with any of the reality warping hax used by Okumura.
 
"He cannot however defend or attack with said reality warping. Being a cognitive being doesn't change that. He would need to literally demonstrate that he can in order for us to accept the fact that he can reality warp his own attack potency into 4-A levels."

False. Okumura engages in combat through the same means he does his 4-A feat. There is no difference between the two. Personas and Shadows don't punch people literally. Everything is mental and cognitive.

"I propose that Okumura be City Level (scaling from Futaba) but with 4-A reality warping hax (and it should be noted that he never weaponized said reality warping hax)"

Disagree. Entirely baseless.

"Joker fighting Okumura would be a city level feat for him, since he did not interact with any of the reality warping hax used by Okumura."

No. The two engaging in a cognitive battle with Personas is a 4-A feat. It's not a specific ability reality warping like a squishy human level mage that can use spells to reality warp.
 
Yeah I ain't tryna be a dick but I do get agitated and put snarky jabs in my comments sometimes, sorry about that.

Last comments, Okumura does not engage in combat with his reality warping. I'd ask for evidence but can we just be honest and acknowledge it doesn't exist? Being a cognitive being doesn't mean anything, he still has to prove his reality warping can be weaponized (or more so that he has weaponized it)

You call it baseless but your accusation amounts to calling me wrong.

It is a specific ability, Okumura can sustain the palace and such through hax, he's 4-A through hax. He has yet to demonstrate he can attack with said hax.

Bigger picture guys, this will inevitably downgrade early and mid game Persona but late game will be increased to 2-C as a result of this discussion. Let's have an accurate verse, not the strongest verse.
 
No disrespect to Dragon, obviously, but considering only two people were getting heated and it has now subsided, I reopened this because I want it done. I just hope Ed and I can figure something out with Dargoo and Dragon. Let's figure out what to do here please.
 
I hope I wasn't getting heated, to be honest. I was just commenting on what I thought was a poor argument.

And yes, I plan on making a thread.

Actually, could someone point me out to where I was getting heated?
 
You weren't. It was Matt and Professor Lord (especially in chat), primarily due to a lack of compromise but it's long subsided now.
 
That and I'd like to discuss calcing methods for pocket realities.

@Dragon And I call out appeals to tradition as I see them. I've already claimed I plan on making a seperate thread for seperate issues but that has nothing to do with me commenting on issues with an argument. I'm open to people pointing out flaws in my logic, Matt can tell you how often I use false equivalencies when I get frustrated, lol.
 
Sera EX said:
You weren't. It was Matt and Professor Lord (especially in chat), primarily due to a lack of compromise but it's long subsided now.
Click to expand...
Thanks for clarifying. I can get very passive-agressive when frustrated at times and I don't notice, so I always make sure to backtrack and make sure I didn't say anything that would upset someone.
 
So, there are some things I'd like to adress here. First off: not everything is powered by the people's cognition. It's stated a Palace ruler's Shadow looks like how the real person sees him or herself. So the main baddie's cognition takes place here as well. And regarding Okumura, he's WEAK. I'm talking about his shadow. His shadow self is weaksauce, he uses his robot workers to do all the stuff for him. As a matter of fact, one of the robots has an attack that spams through space, possibly a Galaxy, so there's that as well. And the Thieves can tank that. So, that is the 4-A attack you're looking for I guess, which no one has mentioned so far.

And Personas are tamed shadows, btw.

As for 2-c Persona 5, I don't know... I don't see them on the same level as Tatsuya or Nyarl or Maya.

But saying Yaldy is 8-C is all kinds of downplay, and you know it. No way Yaldabaoth is weaker than Izanami.

Now, I have an important question, how the hell is Minato 4-C? He wasn't stronger than Nyx even with the Universe arcana, and he didn't "tank" her attacks. He nearly dropped dead and could barely stand after her first attack, and only managed to endure it through his bonds. And even then, he didn't beat her in a fight, but only cockblocked her away. Not to mention Nyx's best feat is planetary (the moon dropping one), possibly above that, since she's called a Star Eater in a game book. The only thing that could support Solar System Minato is his starry sky creation feat, and he only did that in an extreme situation, after he used all his power on the Great Seal with the Universe arcana. Imo, large planetary (or even a bit above that) was just fine.
 
Does Okumura even directly attack the Theives? Isn't the boss fight with one of his minions?
 
Ironically he's the only Shadow who doesn't. He spends his time summoning robots, His fight is a mook rush.
 
Yeah, and the creation feat would only scale to his AP, not his dura, so the PT beating the crap out of him wouldn't cound as scaling to the palace creation feat either.

Even then I don't think the creation feat would have any energy attacks of his own to scale off of.
 
Eeeh, the really noteworthy stuff here is not Okumura, the dude got one shotted in my playthrough once I cleared the "Boss" fights. The Thieves scale to the corp Robo that can use a space spamming attack, because they can not only dodge and tank that, they can also beat the same enemy who does that kind of attack. Okumura himself is pathetic. People don't praise his power when talking about his Palace, they praise his worker robot.
 
Okumura attacks the Thieves during the last act of the boss if I'm not mistaken.
 
The issue is that Okumura is the one with the space-creating feat, not his minions.

@Sera Can you link it? If it's just a physical attack it might not scale to his creation feat.
 
Excuse me, I stand corrected. Futaba clearly says "he doesn't have enough power to hit hard". So never mind.

However here's the boss fight for reference:

https://youtu.be/NcB0da8f8J8 (skip to 24:25)
 
"But no one came..."

Undertale and Persona share universes confirmed?

So, the palace creation feat shouldn't scale to the Theives?
 
Futaba never does since the boss is entirely different.

Futaba's weaponry damaged the boss you fight tho
 
No, but a giant monster that Futaba's cognition created attacks the thieves and stomps them until Futaba herself awakens her Persona and joins the fight. Her distorted cognition is what created her palace in the first place.
 
Okay, so should the 4-C sun creation feat scale?

@Ed Doesn't Futabu just assist and heal you, and let you activate traps?
 
But his minion is the one who unleashes the Galaxy sized explosion, not Okumura himself. I couldn't care less for Okumura's creation feat, his annoying Palace makes me angry as hell. And there's also the fact he's the only Boss that doesn't fight you, but relies on others to fight you, so maybe that's why his creation feat is not on par with his AP.
 
Futaba had a weapon where you launched stuff at Futaba's mother iirc during her fight.
 
Thiag125 said:
But his minion is the one who unleashes the Galaxy sized explosio
Click to expand...
That always bothered me, as the animation is highly cartoonized and it doesn't look like its actually covering a galaxy.

That and I personally think it's an outlier if we assume it's true.
 
Necronomicon showed the ability to alter Futaba's palace, and I believed Cognitive Wakaba caused the palace to shake.
 
Also, does Shadow Kaneshiro have any energy-based attacks? If I remember most of his attacks were physical or hax-based stat debuffs. If there's no energy blasts or something equivalent then his creation AP feat shouldn't scale.

Same goes for Kamoshida.
 
Sera EX said:
Necronomicon showed the ability to alter Futaba's palace, and I believed Cognitive Wakaba caused the palace to shake.
Click to expand...
How does that scale to its physical attacks or dura, which it uses to attack the theives?
 
It doesn't. Futaba's powers are mainly hax based given her low physical condition (she's a shut-in).
 
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