Persona 5 DOWNGRADES!

[Sera_EX]

Obviously Persona 5 needs to be revised. That's why I'm waiting on PQ2 for some clarifications. 8-C P5 is immense downplay for reasons I've already stated. P5 hero beats Caroline and Justine who are comparable to at least Elizabeth who stomped the P3 cast until they become strong enough to beat her in a fight, which is their EoG selves. We need to cross-scale some of these characters. Yaldy is stronger than Igor and possibly even Philemon. He's likely Low 2-C. We just need information first. Yaldaboath became the God of the Collective Unconsciousness for a similar reason YHVH is so strong in SMT. Yaldy is even considered the Persona version of YHVH for all his similarities to him.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

We need to revise all of Persona.

 

[Sera_EX]

I literally have Persona revisions prepared anyway. I just want to play PQ2 first and the game will be released this month. I'm not saying Professor Lord doesn't have some good points. I'm just saying that 8-C P5 is immense downplay across the board.

 

[Edwellken]

I'm playing through the series as well since I didn't know Sera was already doing it. Guess I'll hold off on my own thread then.

 

[Sera_EX]

Well I'm not discouraging anyone from making a thread for revisions. I haven't forgetten about ya Ed. We can do it together! (Sorry if that sounds too Power-of-Friendshipy for your tastes ovo). I won't make my thread until after I've beaten Persona Q2. But I'm more than happy to assist in any revisions you come up with until then.

 

[Edwellken]

Alright, thanks. I'm honestly just glad to have the help no matter who makes a thread. (And friendship power is the greatest power ovo)

 

[ProfessorLord]

I know a majority of SMT verses are super powerful but Persona in general is far below and not one of them.

We can discuss Yalda later because I don't remember any of this Igor being 2-C business but can we focus in the lead up to Yalda first? This is technically the focus of the thread.

I think we're almost at a breaking point I just got to establish how the metaverse functions with examples to prove that twisted desires aren't combat applicable. That's how palaces are "created" (actually by Yalda but you get the point) so for it to scale 1-1 with their attacks we need to see Kamoshida or Shido using their twisted desires in combat.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Yaldaboth can very easily be Low 2-C considering he was merging the Metaverse and the Universe.

 

[ProfessorLord]

He said human world and the metaverse. Smallest logical conclusion is earth, not the entire universe. This is what I mean about persona wank.

This is not new, we did it to Jojo and timestop before Araki confirmed in an interview that it was universal.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Just as you can accuse us of wanking, we can very much accuse you of downplay. Be careful with what you say.

 

[Sera_EX]

I never said Ignor was 2-C. Philemon is Low 2-C and it is possible that Yaldy is greater than him too because Yald became the God of the Collective Unconscious. That's all I said.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Human World is the universe contextually. The Collective Consciousness encompasses multiple universes which you'd know if you played Persona 2.

 

[ProfessorLord]

Accusing anyone of waking or downplay isn't an insult for me, I'm saying it to establish and hopefully abolish the trend of trying to twist statements to make a feat stronger or weaker than it should be.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Everyone agrees with Sera tho. You're effectivey arguing by yourself, but insisting that only you have good arguments

Sewa Queen Slay

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

But we aren't twisting statements? We are going by the context of the verse. Where have we twisted statements? You are only arguing Matt when you haven't even countered Sera.

 

[ProfessorLord]

You should know that Persona 1 and 2 are in separate universes from the other games. Human world means earth in almost every context I know. Prove to us that it has meant universe in an earlier sentence and then you have an actual argument Matt.

 

[Sera_EX]

I literally said Professor Lord DOES have some good points though...

 

[Sera_EX]

Again, I'm not at all okay with the current stats for Persona 5 either as they disregard the other games. But this thread will accomplish nothing but downgrading the P5 cast to 8-C or even worse everyone gets put at Unknown.

Forget about creation feats...please.

 

[ProfessorLord]

I can argue with Sera because he's actually arguing rather than twisting his opinions as an argument.

I thought Yalda was the fusion of everyone's twisted desires and that's what he means when he said collective unconcious; that's what your shadow is.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

I can argue with Sera because he's actually arguing rather than twisting his opinions as an argument.
I thought Yalda was the fusion of everyone's twisted desires and that's what he means when he said collective unconcious; that's what your shadow is.

Glad to know Sera changed genders. OvO

 

[ProfessorLord]

I think early game Persona 5 might be 9-A based on the only calc I have about it. I really don't see them being town level, that's why I'm busting everyones balls about palaces.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I think early game is 8-C at least.

Also Human World means Multiverse in Devil Survivor.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Didn't Yaldy say merge with Reality and not Earth?

 

[ProfessorLord]

Forgetting palace feats, what supports 8-C Persona? Is that really just it?

I have Yusuke freezing two shadows as 9-A on a blog somewhere.

 

[ProfessorLord]

Yes Dragon is right, he fused all of reality. I don't know if reality is used as a lesser context than we normally use it so I guess reality = universe?

 

[Sera_EX]

I don't feel like reposting my scaling chain a third time. But P5 cast at the very least scale to the P3 cast based on beating a Velvet Room attendant.

 

[ProfessorLord]

Okay, I guess we can focus on Yalda for now since everyone would prefer to see the highest feats rather than acknowledge the verse is rather weak early on and for the majority of the game.

Let's say fusing reality is a 2-C feat (since a universe is technically a 4-D object), is it applicable to Yalda's ap or is it just hax? As in "2-C via hax" like Giorno or Johnny Joestar.

 

[ProfessorLord]

I don't feel like reposting my scaling chain a third time. But P5 cast at the very least scale to the P3 cast based on beating a Velvet Room attendant.

Are all velvet room attendants equal, let alone one that has been split into two? I know Margaret fought Elizabeth and won every time, but what about the twins?

 

[Sera_EX]

Caroline and Justice/Lavenza are top tiers and Joker beat them. Lavenza even said Joker is likely the strongest person to ever visit the Velvet Room and this was before he defeated the Holy Grail.

 

[ProfessorLord]

Okay but what supports them being top tiers? Who have they fought and when to become equal in power to Margaret?

I want to see definitive scaling before I take Lavenza's feat into hand because she's supposed to be in love with Ren. Not sure if she's exactly just wanking him or if she's inexperienced and doesn't know every single velvet room fight.

 

[Sera_EX]

Margaret is stronger than Elizabeth by Elizabeth's own mouth. Caroline and Justine should be comparable to Elizabeth. I assume Margaret is stronger than Elizabeth like Goku is stronger than Vegeta. Not exactly tiers apart, close and comparable enough to scale. I don't recall Margaret's specific words on the matter but she did say Elizabeth is troublesome to deal with.

 

[Edwellken]

I'm pretty sure Lavenza and by extension Margaret/Elizabeth scale from Ren and not the other way around. We don't necessarily consider the optional New Game+ exclusive boss fights to be canon at the moment. Caroline and Justine are the exception because they actually have to fight Ren as part of the story.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Not to mention that Lavenza is still a Velvet Room attendent. In love with Ren or not, she would lie about that. And the fact that she can even say that means she knows of previous Velvet Room visitors.

 

[ProfessorLord]

I see no reason that Caroline and Justine should be equal to Elizabeth. Margaret and Elizabeth are adults, Lavenza is a child and her power has been halved by Yalda.

But yes I know Margaret and Elizabeth are roughly equal with Margaret being the Goku of the relationship, the problem is tying it back into Lavenza and P5.

 

[Sera_EX]

When do they fight? Gameplay-wise it's whenever the fight is available. But they canonically should not be able to defeat an attendant until the end of the game.

 

[ProfessorLord]

Not to mention that Lavenza is still a Velvet Room attendent. In love with Ren or not, she would lie about that. And the fact that she can even say that means she knows of previous Velvet Room visitors.

Maybe, but we don't know how seriously she takes her job. Being in loved with someone clouds your judgement 9/10 times, so she needs to demonstrate that she is serious.

How would she know about the other fights? That doesn't even make sense.

 

[ProfessorLord]

When do they fight? Gameplay-wise it's whenever the fight is available. But they canonically should not be able to defeat an attendant until the end of the game.

When "Igor" asks them to execute Joker and you fight back and they whoop his ass almost immediately. I got one-shot in that "fight", lol.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Prove love is clouding her judgment. That just assuming that just because she loves the Protag that she'd just wank him.

Why does she need to know of Velvel Room fights? She just need to know about the main Velvet Room guests such as Door-Kun and Yu.

 

[Edwellken]

@Sera it's when Yalda (still pretending to be Igor) gives up on Ren and tells the twins to kill him. Pretty sure it was right before the big reveal. I'll see if I can find it again.

 

[ProfessorLord]

Prove love is clouding her judgment. That just assuming that just because she loves the Protag that she'd just wank him.
Why does she need to know of Velvel Room fights? She just need to know about the main Velvet Room guests such as Door-Kun and Yu.

Because that's how love works on normal humans. It's the same way we discard a statement when a character is bloodlusted.

You're right I got them confused. I don't know how Lavenza would have seen the other protags other than being told stories by the other attendants, maybe. Even then I don't know if you can convey someones strength through a conversation.