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Persona 5 DOWNGRADES!

No. Not that fight. The superboss fight where the twins ask Joker to fight them. When Joker beats them they are shocked and Caroline says their sisters (Elizabeth and Margaret) will be mad at them. This is before Mementos Depths.
 
Anyways canonically you get obliterated by the attendants when you refuse your execution. You can only really "fight" them after the Yalda fight in NG+.

So Ren shouldn't scale to the wardens at all, and the wardens shouldn't scale to Elizabeth or Margaret on the basis that they've never fought and that Lavenza is waay younger.
 
They should scale because they use the exact same power source. That book. They can use the strongest personas too. They just lack the experience, plus PQ2 might shed some light on that as Caroline implies they've been trained by their sisters in one of the trailers. It's untranslated so I won't bother with it for now.

Also RPGs are weird like that. Using that logic the Dancer of the Boreal Valley would be stronger than the Lords of Cinder because she fights the Ashen One after they've slain the three Lords of Cinder.
 
Elizabeth and Margaret scale upwards of Lavenza for being obviously superior.

@Sera oh alright then, idk. That's probably part of the reason it shouldn't be canon. If Ren can potentially win against the twins at any point only to be stomped later when the story calls for it, well scaling would be pretty messed up to say the least.
 
That's not Canon because you're essentially timetravwling to the start of the game and challenging them. Ask Ed about new game not being Canon.
 
For instance, in Strange Journey, the Metatron / Demiurge Superbosses are VITAL for understanding how powerful Mem Aleph truly is, and what is going on in the Law Story.
 
Yeah, if the true ending needs new game+ then it should be canon for that game
 
True ending doesn't mean canon ending.

I know this is kind of hypocritical but isn't SMT functioning on the multiverse theory? As in these are all technically canon endings? I'm pretty sure P4G said that there are many worlds too, and they were experincing just one of them.

I'm inclined to say both Joker beating the twins and not even fighting them is both canon, weird. Either way in both lead ups when "Igor" asks them to execute him Joker is supposed to get his ass kicked, so in one timeline they straight up kick his ass (we'll call this the first playthrough) and in another he kicks their asses and then gets his ass kicked later (NG+ playthrough).

That's why it's confusing.
 
I don't even think we should acknowledge the NG+ except for dialogue and other information. Actual fights and shit are all alternate timelines that you play through. Joker beats them in another timeline, not the "main" one.

Right, so what tier should Joker be during his fight with Yaldaboth (aka end-game)? Satanael? This is the least controversial topic. Since Yalda fused mementos and reality that's a 2-C feat (you're fusing two quantities of infinite time and infinitely expanding space, hence not 3-A). How did he fuse it though, hax or AP? Can the feat be correlated to his attack potency?
 
It doesn't matter if we accept NG+ or not. You guys also act like we can't just have one key, an End of Game key, like we have for so many other characters here. I mean there's a lot more things to consider, such as Lucifer, one of the strongest personas in-game, having a star busting attack.
 
I mean if Lavenza or Velvet room attendants get an upgrade then Ren and Yaldabaoth obviously scale above them. The only thing I'm actually against is scaling the P3 and P4 characters off of them when they don't actually fight them in canon, and it would result in a major outlier.
 
P3 and P4 characters are a different story entirely. This thread has gone on long enough, can we just find a common ground here? I have other stuff to do.
 
I misunderstood then, sorry.

I mean, we decided that palace creation is legit so the thread has probably served its purpose.
 
Yeah the palace creation feat is not legit, you even said it's applicable to only Yalda since he creates them, I switched focus to find common ground first since that's easier than accepting a downgrade.

Sera, what should late game Joker and cast be? So far he is somewhat comparable to Yalda but far behind even with his team. Just give us a definitive tier and explain why.
 
I don't recall anyone agreeing to that, and I know for a fact I never said Yalda creates them, or that he's the only one it applies to.

Yaldabaoth is above the team normally, but below Ren with Satanael.
 
You right, you still agreed it's not a valid creation feat though. You said the shadows still sustain it though, after we can decide on a tier for late game I'll post why sustaining isn't a feat of AP lol.
 
Late game should be 4-A, upwards of Okumura. Yaldabaoth should be upwards of Igor and Lavenza, or potentially Low(?) 2-C for his own feat or possibly scaling off of Philemon, both of which I have doubts about but far more so for the latter.
 
Sustaining the palace isn't what scales, it's the simple fact they reality warped a part of the Metaverse into such a space from the distortion in her heart, which for the final time, according to Morgana who is a very credible source, is like the "inverse" of a Persona or they are fueled by the same power. This is not too different than what Izanami did with the Midnight Channel, or the shenanigans that lead to the existence of Tartarus (a space in which shadows roam). No Shadow with this type of power within the unconscious is as weak as 9-C, that is straight up downplay. I can break down cognitive dissonance and its relation to the collective unconscious, personas, Philemon, etc. if I have to but we really need to let go of creation feats.
 
@Ed

Lavenza can scale to her siblings. Common sense scaling tells us thay are relative in power. As for Yald, I'd give him a possibly since we don't not for sure yet.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
The Palace Creation Feat is legit. At 148 posts we are still debating this?
Click to expand...
This is my thread, I can keep it going as long as I need to until I get an adaquate response.

As it stands nobody has fully refuted my arguments. Of course, you're going to deny this since that's the slimey and dishonest way out but it would be best if you ask for me to quote/re-post my arguments and then you 100% debunk them in a post rather than focusing on a single thing.

I'm refuting Sera's post now.
 
Sera EX said:
Lavenza can scale to her siblings. Common sense scaling tells us thay are relative in power. As for Yald, I'd give him a possibly since we don't not for sure yet.
Click to expand...
Lavenza is a child though, Margaret and Elizabeth are grown adult women. Why would she be equal in power to them just because they're related? Is Goten now = Goku just because they're related?

Also, does this mean Satanael is 2-C?
 
No. That's a false equivalence. Lavenza looks like a child, first and foremost, as we don't even know how old the attendants or Igor actually are since they reside in a place between dream and reality. Goten is just Goku's son, he does not have access to the exact same power as Goku per se (he has to learn it) and he doesn't share the exact same role as Goku. Lavenza shares the exact same role as Theodore, Margaret, Elizabeth, and even Marie. She has access to practically any persona, as seen via the DLC that not only does she have Messiah and both versions of Izanagi (three counting Magatsu Izanagi) and knows of their owners and how they relate to Joker, but she could use them because the attendants use the compendium to summon personas. Caroline and Justice are seen summoning personas from the compendium, the exact same method as Margaret and Elizabeth in their respective boss battles. They could spam some of the strongest spells in game like Megidolaon just like Elizabeth, which is also a testament to their strength. There is more evidence supporting Lavenza being loosely comparable to her siblings and Marie (even if she is the weakest) than Goten would scale to Goku.

Satanael scales to Yaldy, so if Yaldy gets Low 2-C, Satanael/Joker gets it.
 
Sera EX said:
Sustaining the palace isn't what scales, it's the simple fact they reality warped a part of the Metaverse into such a space from the distortion in her heart, which for the final time, according to Morgana who is a very credible source, is like the "inverse" of a Persona or they are fueled by the same power.
Click to expand...
Thanks for taking the time to respond in full rather than just saying "we've decided already!", as if a bunch of people agreeing on something ever made it fact.

Sustaining is what Ed thought would make the feat accurate from my understanding, that's why I brought it up because I thought everyone agreed with him. Assuming they make their own palaces, reality warping a part of the metaverse into their palace is not AP related, Sera. It's literally just reality warping.

And while yes, it is like the "inverse" of a Persona in the sense that it's fueled by the same type of power (which is strong emotions/injustices as I understand it), there is no correlation between creating a palace out of distorted desires and attacking an enemy with punches and robots.

Sera EX said:
No Shadow with this type of power within the unconscious is as weak as 9-C, that is straight up downplay. I can break down cognitive dissonance and its relation to the collective unconscious, personas, Philemon, etc. if I have to but we really need to let go of creation feats.
Click to expand...
Sorry but it's exactly how we treat other characters on this site. Funny Valentine can literally tank attacks that have infinite energy with his Love Train ability. Despite this, we cannot correlate it to his durability because he's using hax, not himself. This is the same type of scenario with shadows. They create the palace with hax, not "themselves" which is what they attack you with.

Please do break it down if you have time.
 
Okay. Give me a minute as I need to type in a notepad first, writing long posts isn't exactly easy on mobile and is prone to typos.
 
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