Persona 5 DOWNGRADES!

[Dargoo_Faust]

Okay, so how does it scale to the Phantom Theives, if it doesn't scale to Striking Strength or Dura? And they have no energy-based attacks?

 

[Jinsye]

This isn't a physical attack

 

[Sera_EX]

I said we should find feats for the personas because I'm not sure how palace feats scale.

 

[Thiag125]

That always bothered me, as the animation is highly cartoonized and it doesn't look like its actually covering a galaxy.

That and I personally think it's an outlier if we assume it's true.

It is covering a galaxy though, or you can consider it a nebula if you wish. And it's a game, it can take liberties. Remember, it all depends on cognition. If Okumura's shadow believes that his Big Bang Burger attack can spam through a Galaxy, that's how his shadow believes the attack is, so why say it's false just because it includes goddamn burgers in it? It's his cognition of the attack, it still spams through the galaxy. Although it being an outlier is debatable.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

It is covering a galaxy though, or you can consider it a nebula if you wish. ... If Okumura's shadow believes that his Big Bang Burger attack can spam through a Galaxy, that's how his shadow believes the attack is, so why say it's false just because it includes goddamn burgers in it?

Sigh, let me make this more simple.

Prove it covers a galaxy.

And if I consider it a nebula that changes the AP in several orders of magnitude.

Or I could just see it as a large explosion that engulfs the station.

Sky's the limit when you make baseless assumptions.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

I said we should find feats for the personas because I'm not sure how palace feats scale.

And don't the cast scale to previous protagonists with the wardens/Igor?

I feel like that would be more accurate, honestly.

That and looking at actual destructive feats, but that's just my opinion.

 

[Edwellken]

Futaba had a weapon where you launched stuff at Futaba's mother iirc during her fight.

^

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Futaba had a weapon where you launched stuff at Futaba's mother iirc during her fight.

That was a ballista operating on physical damage, no clue why you'd assume it's 4-C just because it was created by Futaba.

 

[Thiag125]

The entire onscreen explosion covers the game's screen, including the Galaxy that is there. It's pretty clear the intention WAS to show the Galaxy getting covered. And I said before, take it as you wish, if you believe it's a nebula, no problem. But I still stand by what I said: imo It depends on the cognition of the ruler.

Though that makes me Wonder, will the cast get downgraded or upgraded because of Yaldy's reality warping? Will their speed stay the same?

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Yaldy should upgrade Ren w/Sataneal and no one else, tbh. The rest of the cast weren't meaningfully hurting its final form.

@Sera

What galaxy that's there? I watched through the animation and it certainly doesn't look like a conventional galaxy. Is there anything you can use for reference to confirm the size?

Honestly I feel like taking all of the Palace feats at face value make for some pretty ridiculous outcomes, like Futaba scaling to 4-C despite being the weakest member, or Okumura being 3-C despite him being fodderized by regular persona attacks. There's little other than mild level differences to indicate they make that large of a jump until the absolute endgame with Yaldy.

That's why I think we should look for more consistent feats, to be honest.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

@Thiag

Now you're assuming a Galaxy is there. It doesn't look like one to me.

 

[Thiag125]

Agreed with Futaba, but like before, the real powerhouse in Okumura's palace is his last robot that fights against you, not Okumura himself.

But will Ren's speed stay the same? I don't want my boi to get slower.

And regarding your question, it is a Galaxy. Not every Galaxy has that circular shape, some galaxies look exactly like the one you see in the Big Bang Burger attack, just Google it. I'd post here, but my cellphone is horrible for this.

Overrall, in my opinion, absolute end game Ren with his Ultimate Persona should be somewhere around Galaxy level and MFTL+ or something like that. No Universal level, though. I don't think he's that strong, that spot is reserved for best protagonist Tatsuya. What do you think?

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

And regarding your question, it is a Galaxy. Not every Galaxy has that circular shape, some galaxies look exactly like the one you see in the Big Bang Burger attack, just Google it. I'd post here, but my cellphone is horrible for this.

"It's as large as the observable universe because I think it looks like that"

You need to give me some justification. If it's just a big ball of gas it could be anything from a small as heck nebula to a galaxy. Statments, something tangible.

 

[Thiag125]

"It's as large as the observable universe because I think it looks like that"

You need to give me some justification. If it's just a big ball of gas it could be anything from a small as heck nebula to a galaxy. Statments, something tangible.

It's not just a big ball of gas though, we can see stars and planets in that same attack, and I said before, it looks closer to being a galaxy than a nebula. I have some links with "pictures" of galaxies here, is there any problem to post them to show the resemblance?

 

[Edwellken]

Sorry for the late responses.

That was a ballista operating on physical damage, no clue why you'd assume it's 4-C just because it was created by Futaba.

It was created with her Persona which scales to her palace.

The damage type shouldn't matter. Throughout the series Persona users wield guns and/or bows whose damage scales to their level regardless. A ballista should produce the same results.

Also, about using Palace feats, Persona users jumping into tier 4 from far lower isn't a rare occurrence. It happened as early as P1, and again in P3. It isn't a far cry for these characters to have similar power levels. (Also, Okumura isn't 3-C)

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

The damage type shouldn't matter. Throughout the series Persona users wield guns and/or bows whose damage scales to their level regardless. A ballista should produce the same results.

We've said the damage type in creation feats does matter over and over again. Creating an object is and AP feat, but it doesn't scalke to physical attacks. Yes, persona users use guns that scale, but it does not mean the guns scale by default by any metric. The ballista is a physical weapon she creates. Not every gun, bow, or arrow she makes is automatically 4-C. Honestly Futaba being 4-C in general is off as her role in the team is universally support. Even then if you want to be specific, Shadow Futaba should be 4-C, not regular Futaba.

It's not just a big ball of gas though, we can see stars and planets in that same attack, and I said before, it looks closer to being a galaxy than a nebula.

If it was actually the size of a galaxy like you assume, planets wouldn't be visible.

We see stars because it's in space; there is no statement that attaches a specific size, so we shouldn't assume one unless we have a visual reference, which the one we have is vague.

 

[Edwellken]

We've said the damage type in creation feats does matter over and over again. Creating an object is and AP feat, but it doesn't scalke to physical attacks. Yes, persona users use guns that scale, but it does not mean the guns scale by default by any metric. The ballista is a physical weapon she creates. Not every gun, bow, or arrow she makes is automatically 4-C. Honestly Futaba being 4-C in general is off as her role in the team is universally support. Even then if you want to be specific, Shadow Futaba should be 4-C, not regular Futaba.

A 4-C character, who is 4-C via creation, creates a weapon that is comparable to other weapons in-verse that scale to the user's AP, how does that not scale here?

Her role is support, yes. That just means that she isn't suited for fighting and doesn't really have any tangible affect on her tier. Her striking strength is listed as Unknown for that very reason. Weapon creation is her only feasible method of fighting, and it isn't very practical for her to do it solo.

"Shadow Futaba" and Necronimicon are literally the same being.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

A 4-C character, who is 4-C via creation, creates a weapon that is comparable to other weapons in-verse that scake to the user's AP, how does that not scale?

Since it's not energy-based. She's not shooting energy at an enemy that we can say is the same she uses in creation. For example, calling a wall made by a creation user who can make a town nuke-proof fails in logic on a number of levels. We've said over and over again, energy-based attacks need to be involved for scaling.

Not every brick in Futaba's Pyramid is 4-C. Not every weapon she makes is 4-C.

 

[Edwellken]

She's creating a weapon here, though, one that should in-verse scale to her AP.

I'm not arguing for Futaba's bricks to be 4-C.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

She's creating a weapon here, though, one that should in-verse scale to her AP.
I'm not arguing for Futaba's bricks to be 4-C.

Then you shouldn't argue for her weapons.

If everything she makes isn't 4-C, then why do the pointed stuff get a pass on the assumption train?

 

[Edwellken]

Because time and time again similar weapons have been shown to scale to a Persona user's level, and this one was explicitly created by Futaba no less.

Why would you assume weapons not to work the same way in this case is probably the better question.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Because time and time again similar weapons have been shown to scale to a Persona user's level, and this one was explicitly created by Futaba no less.

Incorrect. It's the weapons that scale from the persona, not the other way around.

Futaba can't use her persona for direct attacks, this case would be an indirect one.

"Similar weapons"

Ren doesn't create his weapons out of thin air, last time I checked.

As I've said before, you cannot assume everything created by someone who has a creation feat is the same tier. Why you want to make such a leap in logic is beyond me.

 

[Edwellken]

I meant "from". Doesn't really change the argument.

Similar weapons was referring to characters using bows and guns which do comparable damage to the user's regular attacks. It being created by Futaba is the reason it scales from her Persona. It's not simply because "she's a 4-C being creating a weapon."

I'm not making that assumption, as I said before. If I'm making it sound that way then I apologize for poorly conveying my point.

 

[Thiag125]

We see planets because the attack zooms in, after it zooms out and the galaxy is showed, there are no planets there, is what I meant. And if that's the case, what would you consider what appears there? An actual nebula? Because the consensus is that really is a Galaxy.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I agree with Ed.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

We see planets because the attack zooms in, after it zooms out and the galaxy is showed, there are no planets there, is what I meant. And if that's the case, what would you consider what appears there? An actual nebula? Because the consensus is that really is a Galaxy.

Again to assuming it's a galaxy.

What consensus? I don't see one here.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Similar weapons was referring to characters using bows and guns which do comparable damage to the user's regular attacks. It being created by Futaba is the reason it scales from her Persona. It's not simply because "she's a 4-C being creating a weapon."

https://youtu.be/63xU2a1SfT4?t=5168

It doesn't seem like she's "creating" something in the general sense, to be honest. She refers to it as "hacking into my distortion", i.e. altering what's already there, not creating something new.

And what sounds more plausible? Her making a ballista that fires with the entire energy needed to form her distortion, or her making a ballista that just scales to the theives and what they've demonstrated at that point?

Also, there's a good deal of false equivalency here. The rest of the cast brings weapons into the distorted world. Futaba is just making an alteration to her own distorted world.

 

[Edwellken]

I don't see how "hacking into my distortion" implies a specific method for how the Ballista was created, and at the end of the day she's doing it through her own power either way.

Weapons have worked the same way in every Persona game, not just 5. The weapon being weilded alone is enough for it to scale, and Futaba is outright creating hers. She's not "making a weapon that fires with the energy of her distortion", she's making a weapon that scales to her AP like everybody else's.

Anyway, forgive me if I don't respond for a while here. I've got class tomorrow so I need to get some sleep.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Ah, that's fine. I'll hold off on the debate as well for a bit.

 

[ProfessorLord]

Wanted to interject here since this seems important,

How would we know if Futaba's Persona is 9-C versus her current rating? We wouldn't, she never gets attacked nor tanks any attack. By that logic, why are we jumping to the largest logical conclusion possible when her being 9-C would fit the narrative just as well?

To be honest, characters who don't attack or get hit should simply stay at an Unknown rating, regardless of how likely she should scale to the other characters. Even if she is 4-C not everything she creates is 4-C, regardless of whether or not it's made out of her energy or not.

 

[Thiag125]

So the several thread with everyone saying it's a Galaxy don't matter anymore? And tell me, if it's not a Galaxy, what is it then?

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Apparently creating pointed sticks that can be fired from a ballista allows 4-C scaling to physical attacks.

I'd rather there be a much more direct use of energy, just as blasts or statements, to use scaling since it boosts the theives several orders of magnitude.

@Thiag Honestly I'd be more inclined to call it an outlier, considering the only other feat is Okumura's creation feat and that doesn't directly scale to anything.

 

[ProfessorLord]

A god who creates man with his own energy doesn't mean that said man is now 1-A.

If she created a ballista from all of her energy then she should pass out and fall dead from that logic. That's the only way for the ballista to have a 4-C rating, if it scales 1-1 with her.

With her whole theme of "hacking" the metaverse, it seems clear to me that she's just a reality warper, I would classify it as information manipulation.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

With her whole theme of "hacking" the metaverse, it seems clear to me that she's just a reality warper, I would classify it as information manipulation.

That I disagree with, although maybe in her own palace. It looks more like limited transmutation as she's saying that she's altering the palace as opposed to creating something new within it.

 

[ProfessorLord]

Well she can heal/revert damage from the thieves as well as give them extra attacking power, extra defense and accuracy... those aren't things you can give someone with traditional transmutation. Information manipulation on the other hand can play the role of transmutation while doing the above.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Hm. Maybe.

Also, having one possible 4-C attack and having literally no other offensive abilities sounds a bit off, and that's not even going into the issues with considering weapons that she makes 4-C.

 

[ProfessorLord]

Early Game = At least 9-A (based on Yusuke calc)

Mid Game = ???

Late Game = 2-C (based on Yalda's merging feat)

Does that look right?

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

I'm iffy on Early Game as some of the palace leaders have energy-based attacks, and 7-C is pretty consistent for early game persona if P3 and P4 are anything to go off of.

I agree Mid-Game should look into other feats.

I disagree with 2-C applying to anything other than Yaldy and Satan. No one other than Ren/Satan meaningfully harmed Yaldy.

 

[ProfessorLord]

P5 =/= P3 and P4 though (with no connection to the others outside of Velvet Room), if the way you bring forth and use a Persona changes, what's to say Persona's themselves haven't also changed in attacking power? I thought 9-A was pretty spot on but if you have any ideas for more feats then I'm all ears.

Yes, agreed.

Ren still scales off of the stats of his Persona's though. Plus there's the entire "I am thou, thou art I" thing. All Persona users can scale 1-1 with their Persona's. So Ren should be equal in strength to Satanael, but yeah, nobody else other than him should be 2-C.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

I'm not saying they scale for no reason, I'm saying because a guy who did a 7-C creation feat used energy attacks on them with little effect. I'm saying it's not off-the-wall bonkers as other Persona games have similar ratings.

K.

Considering that Personas scale to the user's dura nearly by default, that's not a baseless assumption.