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Persona 5 DOWNGRADES!
- Thread starter ProfessorLord
- Start date
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Now Creation feats can't count despite counting ever snce this site was created and nothing was ever wrong with them until now? All of a sudden they aren't acceptable. You are getting ri-goshdamn-diculous.
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That's like saying a Persona user can't be a certain tier because their Personas are the ones with the feat. If the distorted power in your heart is strong enough to create a castle. You scale to the castle. Again, Palace = Persona. The only difference is palaces are created from the distortion within one's heart.
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To me it depends on the source of the creation. If you create a castle with magic power and use the same power to destroy, it should scale. It only shouldn't scale when the source of creation is completely disconnected from the source of the destruction.
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Creation Feats almost always count unless there are very specific mechanics regarding them.
Energy is Energy guys, regardless if it is applied to creation or destruction. To say that they never count is ridiculous.
Energy is Energy guys, regardless if it is applied to creation or destruction. To say that they never count is ridiculous.
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Seriously, now if someone uses energy to create a dimension, then maintains it every second passively with his own power, and when he is defeated the dimension collapses... It's not an AP feat?
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> Matt messages me not to discuss this now
> proceeds to discuss and debate it while I refrain from speaking
It's clear that discussion isn't for this thread, though, and I'll make my own thread going over my grievances with putting all unexplained creation feats under an umbrella of assumptions.
> proceeds to discuss and debate it while I refrain from speaking
It's clear that discussion isn't for this thread, though, and I'll make my own thread going over my grievances with putting all unexplained creation feats under an umbrella of assumptions.
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Also, I hate the abundance of Appeal to Traditions here. At least Matt actually explains his reasonings and helps me understand what the deal is instead of shutting out my argument because it goes against something the site has done for a while.
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We don't put all unexplained creation feats under an umbrella of assumptions, and even if we did, changing it to put them all into the umbrella of assumptions that they aren't valid doesn't solve absolutely anything.
It's not a matter of appeal to tradition, it's a matter of basic logic. It takes energy to materialize something, to create something with matter and weight from nothing. Either this energy be coming from the character himself, or from whatever is powering the character, or from the very environment around the character, it has to come from somewhere.
You cannot create matter out of literally nothing. You can create it out of no matter, through pure energy. But not out of literally nothing including no energy.
Of course, nobody says that creating something = you punch that strong, specially in lower tiers. Thing is, almost every character with the power to create things also tends to have magical / reality warping / energy manipulation abilities which they can apply in combat. If say, Doctor Strange creates a dimension with his magic, then that won't suddenly be orders of magnitude more powerful than the magic he utilizes to fight.
But if it's something like say, Iceman, who in his base self can create giant icebergs, towers, skyscrappers and even cities of ice, then obviously said creation feats don't scale to anything safe Iceman's own ice manipulation. Iceman's like 8-A to 7-C via his Ice Manipulation feats, but he cannot punch that hard, nor tank attacks that hard either.
In regards to the Persona 5 characters, they also sustain / embody their creations, which is a passive energetic feat that can be applied to the very supernatural powers used by the Shadows. Like the Personas themselves. It's not just creation, it's creation and maintenance. And the destruction of the creation following the character's defeat.
... To borrow a comparison from my favorite Verse, The Elder Scrolls:
In TES IV: Oblivion, Mankar Camoran gains cosmic powers upon reading the Mysterium Xarxes and remaking himself with Mehrunes' Razor, and goes on to create the pocket-Oblivion Plane of Gaiar Alata. He also becomes one with his plane, becoming omnipresent in consciousness in it, while his body resides at the heart of the plane, where he sustains the plane with his power. You, the player character, invade Gaiar Alata and kill Mankar there. Upon which the plane collapses on itself.
Gaiar Alata has a sun in it.
How in God's good Earth is all of that not a valid High 4-C feat?
See what I mean?
You can't generalize anything for either side. And we do not generalize as is.
It's not a matter of appeal to tradition, it's a matter of basic logic. It takes energy to materialize something, to create something with matter and weight from nothing. Either this energy be coming from the character himself, or from whatever is powering the character, or from the very environment around the character, it has to come from somewhere.
You cannot create matter out of literally nothing. You can create it out of no matter, through pure energy. But not out of literally nothing including no energy.
Of course, nobody says that creating something = you punch that strong, specially in lower tiers. Thing is, almost every character with the power to create things also tends to have magical / reality warping / energy manipulation abilities which they can apply in combat. If say, Doctor Strange creates a dimension with his magic, then that won't suddenly be orders of magnitude more powerful than the magic he utilizes to fight.
But if it's something like say, Iceman, who in his base self can create giant icebergs, towers, skyscrappers and even cities of ice, then obviously said creation feats don't scale to anything safe Iceman's own ice manipulation. Iceman's like 8-A to 7-C via his Ice Manipulation feats, but he cannot punch that hard, nor tank attacks that hard either.
In regards to the Persona 5 characters, they also sustain / embody their creations, which is a passive energetic feat that can be applied to the very supernatural powers used by the Shadows. Like the Personas themselves. It's not just creation, it's creation and maintenance. And the destruction of the creation following the character's defeat.
... To borrow a comparison from my favorite Verse, The Elder Scrolls:
In TES IV: Oblivion, Mankar Camoran gains cosmic powers upon reading the Mysterium Xarxes and remaking himself with Mehrunes' Razor, and goes on to create the pocket-Oblivion Plane of Gaiar Alata. He also becomes one with his plane, becoming omnipresent in consciousness in it, while his body resides at the heart of the plane, where he sustains the plane with his power. You, the player character, invade Gaiar Alata and kill Mankar there. Upon which the plane collapses on itself.
Gaiar Alata has a sun in it.
How in God's good Earth is all of that not a valid High 4-C feat?
See what I mean?
You can't generalize anything for either side. And we do not generalize as is.
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(EDIT): Somebody is correct. I apologize for stretching this out on my part as well, so I have removed all traces of whatever argument I was trying to push forward on this post.
I feel like much of this has diverged and derailed from the original thread.
I feel like much of this has diverged and derailed from the original thread.
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Matt if you really did message him to stop debating here, then please stop as well. At this point, it feels like a low blow to have try to have a final say.
Dargoo save that stuff for the thread.
Lets uh continue the thread's original op
Dargoo save that stuff for the thread.
Lets uh continue the thread's original op
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So, at the very least, my discussions with Matt have made me side with the current justifications with the Persona ratings.
No, I do not think that creating or maintaining a pocket universe of a given size translates to AP. However, they also maintain everything inside of the palace (See: Kamoshida's castle crumbling and falling apart when his heart was taken) and I can see the logic that can be placed behind that.
We should do a calc of the GBE of whatever is visible in the space palace, and the fragmentation of Kamoshida's palace.
Could someone refresh me as to why the Galaxy rating for the end-game profiles were questioned and the responces for that?
No, I do not think that creating or maintaining a pocket universe of a given size translates to AP. However, they also maintain everything inside of the palace (See: Kamoshida's castle crumbling and falling apart when his heart was taken) and I can see the logic that can be placed behind that.
We should do a calc of the GBE of whatever is visible in the space palace, and the fragmentation of Kamoshida's palace.
Could someone refresh me as to why the Galaxy rating for the end-game profiles were questioned and the responces for that?
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Matthew Schroeder said:
Right, I personally have no problems with creation feats in general. You use the energy to create a tower, logically you should be able to use the same energy to attack someone with. No reason assuming it's not equivalent to the energy used to create the tower.Matthew Schroeder said:
The problem is not in this, it's when everyone arbitrarily starts taking everything that's ever created as a creation feat. Regardless if the shadows made the palace or not (which they didn't, Yalda made them) they lack any timeframe and any logical means of creation. They are not a valid feat.
TIMEFRAME: Creating a skyscraper of ice instantly with my ice powers? Sure, that's a valid timeframe, I am now large building level attack potency via my ice powers. Creating a skyscraper of ice in a few minutes with my ice powers? Yeah, no. It's not able to be calculated and it's definitely significantly less than large building level.
MEANS: Creating a skyscraper of ice instantly with my ice powers? Sure, that's a valid means, I am now large building level attack potency via my ice powers (and only through them, unless I demonstrate I can deal comparable damage with my fists as well). Creating a skyscraper of ice instantly with my mind, through a dream, with a button... can I attack with any of those? No? Then we can't assume I can use the same energy with every single action and attack I perform. It's non combat applicable High 8-C energy.
Now let's see if we can find a means and timeframe for the shadows, yeah?
How long does it take to create a palace? Well if they're all born out of twisted desires, and we assume that the shadows make them (which they don't) then it's progressive. Twisted desires aren't born all of a sudden one day. Nobody like Okumura ever just wakes up one day and decides they're going to be scum. In his case, his treasure explicitly tells us that his twisted desires began when he was a child and had to go through poverty and other shit. So we have a timeframe of 20-30 years or so, how is that valid for any creation feat?
Then there's the fact that there's no logical means of creation. What does that mean?
Suppose I created a skyscraper of ice with my ice powers, that creation feat would only apply to my ice powers and thus they would get the rating accordingly. If I create a galaxy with my dreams, that creation feat would only apply to my dreams and thus they would get the rating accordingly... but my dreams are not combat applicable, thus the creation feat has no logical means and cannot be applied to anything. No, no matter how many universes I create with my dreams my attack potency will not change to universal levels. It's not a logical means of combat.
Palaces have no logical means of creation. They are created out of twisted desires and that's that. Kamoshida does not use his twisted desires as an attack during the fight and so it would not correlate directly with his attack potency. He may have the ability to suddenly create a town but unless he can prove that he can use the same energy he used to create in a destructive capacity, it - can - not - scale.
I'll make another post about how "sustaining" a palace is dumb as well, let's start with this first.
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The creation of the palaces didn't take 30 years nor are so inapplicable as you insist. Sure they are created through mind / dreams, but the Metaverse is a real thing and people fight inside it with the power of their minds.
Hell, one of the first things that happen in the Metaverse is a toy gun becoming a real weapon because of thought and belief. The fact that the Palaces are created and maintained through mind and desires is just a natural extension of everything about the Metaverse, and it's not so unquantifiable as you say.
Hell, one of the first things that happen in the Metaverse is a toy gun becoming a real weapon because of thought and belief. The fact that the Palaces are created and maintained through mind and desires is just a natural extension of everything about the Metaverse, and it's not so unquantifiable as you say.
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Not everyones, but Okumuras was. The distorted desires start and you gtt a shadow sometime in your life, your treasure represents that source. Okumuras is literally a model toy from when he was born. That's 20-30 years of cultivating a palace. Kamoshidas was when he was in the Olympics so probably 5 years ago. Don't remember the others.
You still cannot argue that there is any logical connection between the means of creation of the palace and how he uses it to attack. See my argument above.
The physics of the metaverse does not correlate to anyone but maybe Yalda, not sure if you were arguing that.
I say the same thing over and over, sustaining a palace is not a quantifiable AP feat, it's conceptual reliance. I'll make my post on how sustaining is stupid after we get a consensus that creating palaces is stupid.
You still cannot argue that there is any logical connection between the means of creation of the palace and how he uses it to attack. See my argument above.
The physics of the metaverse does not correlate to anyone but maybe Yalda, not sure if you were arguing that.
I say the same thing over and over, sustaining a palace is not a quantifiable AP feat, it's conceptual reliance. I'll make my post on how sustaining is stupid after we get a consensus that creating palaces is stupid.
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I can argue. The metaphysics of the Metaverse allow for people to fight through ideas and their intent. Which is why Personas, Shadows, etc all exist there. It's such a simple correlation.
And the Palaces don't form over such time, lol. The important thing to get from that is that they embody and sustain it.
And it's not "Conceptual reliance" or whatever other buzz words you are throwing. I'm not sure you realized, but nobody is getting a consensus that creating / sustaining is stupid.
And the Palaces don't form over such time, lol. The important thing to get from that is that they embody and sustain it.
And it's not "Conceptual reliance" or whatever other buzz words you are throwing. I'm not sure you realized, but nobody is getting a consensus that creating / sustaining is stupid.
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The Metaverse is literally shaped by human cognition. Yaldy is literally the heart of the people and designed the metaverse that way. We even see the Phantom Thieves were erased to nothingness and Yaldy said it wasn't his doing. They were erased by the people's cognition. Everything in Persona 5 is powered by cognition, including palaces.
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The whole multiverse of Shin Megami Tensei is shaped and powered by cognition constantly. Quantum-Observation is an interesting thing.
So arguing that thought / cognition =/= power in SMT, a setting entirely built on the idea of thoughts shaping reality, is absurd.
So arguing that thought / cognition =/= power in SMT, a setting entirely built on the idea of thoughts shaping reality, is absurd.
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The metaverse physics is based on the cognition of OTHERS.
Ryuji and Joker told Morgana it's a fake gun and Morgana said pull the trigger anyways, and sure enough, there's a bullet.
The shadows think the phantom thieves are a threat and THEN they get their costumes, not before or after.
Shido thinking he's strong doesn't make him strong, the people around him need to believe he's strong. Same goes for the Phantom Thieves. Ren believed in his team and they were brought back into existence. Palaces are created from your desires, but the physics of everyone is based on the collective perception of others.
So no, Shidos or anyone else's desires don't make them strong. Other people's cognition of them makes them strong. That's why when the boss fight progresses the phantom thieves strengthens their opinions and beliefs, changing their cognition of the enemy and ultimately making the fight dramatically easier.
Ryuji and Joker told Morgana it's a fake gun and Morgana said pull the trigger anyways, and sure enough, there's a bullet.
The shadows think the phantom thieves are a threat and THEN they get their costumes, not before or after.
Shido thinking he's strong doesn't make him strong, the people around him need to believe he's strong. Same goes for the Phantom Thieves. Ren believed in his team and they were brought back into existence. Palaces are created from your desires, but the physics of everyone is based on the collective perception of others.
So no, Shidos or anyone else's desires don't make them strong. Other people's cognition of them makes them strong. That's why when the boss fight progresses the phantom thieves strengthens their opinions and beliefs, changing their cognition of the enemy and ultimately making the fight dramatically easier.
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This, right here.Assaltwaffle said:
If one creates a universe with a handwave, maintains it throughout a fight passively while using their magic against an opponent, and it collapses when they die or run out of power - that's AP. The person is actively using the sheer power of their magic in order to maintain it, and they, much like the Big Bang, expanded a universe and all its energy into being. That's AP.
In fact, creating a universe is, if anything, generally portrayed as a better feat than destroying one. Because most universe creation feats involve someone waving their hands or fingers, and then a universe expanding into being. While most universe busting feats involve the character putting solid effort and all their energy to create a blast that consumes the entire cosmos.
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Literally the reason why f*cking YHVH is as powerful as he is is because he's committed to the multiverse's biggest con game, and convinced people that he's Omnipotent.ProfessorLord said:
So this isn't an argument.
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Did you even read what I said?
Palace creation fests are based on twisted desires. Metaverse fighting is heavily based on cognition of others. If Shido creates a palace it cannot scale to his AP because he doesn't fight with twisted desires, he fights with cognition.
Everything about fighting is cognition in persona. There's no cognition involved when it comes to creating a palace.
Assuming you have a valid time frame, creating a palace still does not correlate to your AP unless you fight with twisted desires, which you don't.
Palace creation fests are based on twisted desires. Metaverse fighting is heavily based on cognition of others. If Shido creates a palace it cannot scale to his AP because he doesn't fight with twisted desires, he fights with cognition.
Everything about fighting is cognition in persona. There's no cognition involved when it comes to creating a palace.
Assuming you have a valid time frame, creating a palace still does not correlate to your AP unless you fight with twisted desires, which you don't.
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It absolutely does. Everything in the Metaverse is based on cognition. It's the collective unconscious.
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Repeating yourself doesn't make you right ya know. Cognition =/= twisted desires.
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I don't know if Kepe was arguing against me, but I agree with him because he accidentally articulates how stupid sustaining a palace and having it scale to your AP is.
I'm focused on creation right now. If I fight two battles at once I will only set myself up to be pressured into being wrong.
SMT =/= Persona, Matt. SMT doesn't even follow the same continuity in its own series, let alone trying to apply the values and mechanics to persona.
I'm focused on creation right now. If I fight two battles at once I will only set myself up to be pressured into being wrong.
SMT =/= Persona, Matt. SMT doesn't even follow the same continuity in its own series, let alone trying to apply the values and mechanics to persona.
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>SMT = Persona
This is comedy gold. Persona is set within one universe of the SMT multiverse and even shares a couple characters.
SMT has a very consistent underling metaphysics.
This is comedy gold. Persona is set within one universe of the SMT multiverse and even shares a couple characters.
SMT has a very consistent underling metaphysics.
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@Sera not quite, you're misinterpreting it. Ren can scale to his persona both because he IS his persona and because we're looking for the time frame of WHEN he created it (which was instantly for him, not necessarily instantly for everyone like Haru) not how long it took him to do it.
Yeah, I can't argue with you Matt if you're going to insist the two are the same universes when they clearly aren't. Maybe the first few persona games but like I said, every SMT game is wildly different in a fuckton of aspects. Demons and their origins change from game to game, sometimes they're monsters that coexist with humans and others they are born from their soul.
Yeah, I can't argue with you Matt if you're going to insist the two are the same universes when they clearly aren't. Maybe the first few persona games but like I said, every SMT game is wildly different in a fuckton of aspects. Demons and their origins change from game to game, sometimes they're monsters that coexist with humans and others they are born from their soul.
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It's real shitty too when I make a bunch of points and everyone ignores them and proceeds to focus on one little aspect of what I said.
Matt I already agreed metaverse is based on cognition, it's just based on the cognition of OTHERS, not how you see yourself.
Matt I already agreed metaverse is based on cognition, it's just based on the cognition of OTHERS, not how you see yourself.
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ProfessorLord, you are saying blatantly incorrect things and sounding exactly like someone who's only played Persona 4 and 5 but thinks he's an expert of Shin Megami Tensei.
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The Persona series happened because Raidou's actions changed the future in the Devil Summoner series, you even fight super-soldiers sent back in time by Millenium in it. Heck, Shin Megami Tensei If... spawned Persona as a whole and it takes place almost entirety in the Expanse.
Not to mention that "SMT doesn't have continuity" is a blatantly wrong notion. Mara references the events of Nocturne in Strange Journey, and a reincarnation of Aleph makes an appearance in Nocturne. Not to mention the fact that the Archangels appear in Digital Devil Saga alongside Satan, with YHVH being vaguely mentioned in the game.
Not to mention that "SMT doesn't have continuity" is a blatantly wrong notion. Mara references the events of Nocturne in Strange Journey, and a reincarnation of Aleph makes an appearance in Nocturne. Not to mention the fact that the Archangels appear in Digital Devil Saga alongside Satan, with YHVH being vaguely mentioned in the game.
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This thread will go nowhere.
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Lol alright Matt, I can see this downgrade is affecting you so personally that you have to resort to basically calling me a "noob" rather than taking the time to accurately refuting my arguments.
Not that I should have to defend my credibility but this is my first persona game that I've beaten, not my first SMT game. I've played since the Last Bible series and have been on and off.
Morgana says that palace users can't have personas and vice versa because of their desires being morphed differently but I don't remember anything about him saying that they literally are the same. Either way, kind of irrelevant?
Not that I should have to defend my credibility but this is my first persona game that I've beaten, not my first SMT game. I've played since the Last Bible series and have been on and off.
Morgana says that palace users can't have personas and vice versa because of their desires being morphed differently but I don't remember anything about him saying that they literally are the same. Either way, kind of irrelevant?
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you are double posting professor lord
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They are effectively the same and follow the same principle.
