PC-98's downgrade

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Losing a fight doesn't mean you don't scale unless it's a stomp. You have failed at bringing proof of the fight being a stomp.

The default assumption on this Wiki is that bosses scale to the player's current strength level unless proved otherwise. So, again, you have to prove your point.

 

[MrBreakout]

You can still scale and lose a fight. Fighting the PC at all would indicate that they're comparable, as we don't just randomly assume the PC no diffs the encounter.

Never said you couldn't, the only means that you can is there was indication that she puts effort in the battle


"Character A has a City level feat. Character B lost to Character A, yet still put up a considerable fight, was able to harm him and clearly made Character A exert effort into defeating Character B, then it is safe to assess that Character B has City level Attack Potency and Durability as well."

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Powerscaling

 

[Wokistan]

The default assumption in these sorts of fight is that they're comparable. You'd need to prove she no diffed it, not the other way around.

 

[MrBreakout]

Losing a fight doesn't mean you don't scale unless it's a stomp. You have failed at bringing proof of the fight being a stomp.
The default assumption on this Wiki is that bosses scale to the player's current strength level unless proved otherwise. So, again, you have to prove your point.

Im not necessarily indicating that its a stomp saikou, i'm saying in regards to the continuity and lore there's a lack of evidence to dictate whether reimu struggled or not during the battle which we both know hasn't been dictated.

And reimu's current strength of level at the time was unknown so why not have him there instead of insinuating he's galaxy level? it again open gates for more illogical upgrades

 

[MrBreakout]

The default assumption in these sorts of fight is that they're comparable. You'd need to prove she no diffed it, not the other way around.

That doesn't make sense, again look at my bayonetta analogy, wouldn't the onus be on the person trying to prove the tier show evidence of the protagonist struggling or putting any sort of effort. It's on the powerscaling page itself and the page seems to make complete sense

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

You can't say that there is no scaling possible in a fight unless you assume the fight was a stomp.

Reimu doesn't have actually proven progression of strength over PC-98, so she should still be comparable to how she is in MS.

 

[MrBreakout]

You can't say that there is no scaling possible in a fight unless you assume the fight was a stomp.
Reimu doesn't have actually proven progression of strength over PC-98, so she should still be comparable to how she is in MS.

This isn't what I'm saying, this is a strawman. There can be scaling but only if there was something to even state that the victor of the battle had put in effort in the fight.

Irrelevant to the point since what I'm arguing for is that there isn't any dictation of her struggling, its on the power scaling page itself

 

[MrBreakout]

Uhh sort of out unrelated here, but what if I have to go on the road for a couple hours....would the thread be closed by the time I come back?

 

[Wokistan]

You would be indicating that the fight was a stomp, as that is the only condition under which she can be assumed to not scale with no further specifics. I have no idea what you're getting at with that bayonetta example, as I'm not sure how fighting a key of a character means that they scale to that key and not some other key is relevant here when there is only one pc 98 key for each one. She doesn't have to struggle, just not stomp, and we don't assume she stomps unless that is shown.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

That's exactly what you're saying. The only possible alternative to the boss being able to scale to the protag in a straightforward fight is for the protagonist to utterly one-shot the boss. Any other situation means the boss is strong enough to survive hits from the protagonist and thus is comparable in term of Tier.

This is going in circles. You can't seem to accept the fact that this is not how we do things here. A boss fighting the protagonist is considered valid for scaling unless there is proof of the contrary. This is a logic that has been applied to 99% of bosses in gaming. You trying to change that would affect more than just the PC-98 games.

To put it in other words, both the idea that the protagonist stomps the boss and the idea that they struggle in their fight against the bosses are assumptions. Contrary with what you seem to think, assuming that the protagonist stomps the boss isn't a more "valid" assumption than the opposite. The fact that this fight is even considered, well, a "fight", means that the assumption of the fight NOT being an instant stomp is far more likely than the opposite.

 

[MrBreakout]

That's exactly what you're saying. The only possible alternative to the boss being able to scale to the protag in a straightforward fight is for the protagonist to utterly one-shot the boss. Any other situation means the boss is strong enough to survive hits from the protagonist and thus is comparable in term of Tier.
This is going in circles. You can't seem to accept the fact that this is not how we do things here. A boss fighting the protagonist is considered valid for scaling unless there is proof of the contrary. This is a logic that has been applied to 99% of bosses in gaming. You trying to change that would affect more than just the PC-98 games.

To put it in order words, both the idea that the protagonist stomps the boss and the idea that they struggle in their fight against the bosses are assumptions. Contrary with what you seem to think, assuming that the protagonist stomps the boss isn't a more "valid" assumption than the opposite. The fact that this fight is even considered, well, a "fight", means that the assumption of the fight NOT being an instant stomp is far more likely than the opposite.

If you think that, then my point flew over your head. What I said was that there needs to be a solid indication on whether reimu actually struggled against the boss or not, there are more possible alternatives to this such as reimu might be able to hold back or reimu deciding she wanted the fight to prolong and so forth. This is called a huge false dilemma fallacy as the option is being picked out here out of all the other options that aren't even taken into consideration

Agreed, it seems from what I'm told is that this is a common trope to scale all bosses. If thats the case I find it haphazard and should probably make a post deducing the logic on a general standpoint rather than focus on the post. I assumed this was a problem only prevelent within touhou. You can close this then

 

[MrBreakout]

You would be indicating that the fight was a stomp, as that is the only condition under which she can be assumed to not scale with no further specifics. I have no idea what you're getting at with that bayonetta example, as I'm not sure how fighting a key of a character means that they scale to that key and not some other key is relevant here when there is only one pc 98 key for each one. She doesn't have to struggle, just not stomp, and we don't assume she stomps unless that is shown.

the point with the bayonetta analogy was for it to be used for a notion to anchor my point since bayonetta does her feats casually. The whole profile leans towards a big false dilemma and there should be some sort of concrete evidence to prove the notion that she atleast struggled once otherwise it'd be ignoring all the other possible outcomes that exists. The profile itself is one big fallacy

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

Bit of an advice for further threads since you're asking to close this, you have to stop quoting other people's messages. It fills up the space more and makes the place kinda full.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

You can't dance around the nature of the fight to say "If there is no proof then no scaling!" without acknowledging that the opposite would mean a stomp. Reimu "holding back" or "wanting to prolong the fight" (both of which are utterly baseless assumptions) are just attempts to sidestep the issue that this still means that Reimu is so far above the boss that she doesn't consider them a threat. Again, either the boss scales or this is not a fight at all, with either Reimu one-shotting and moving on or literally playing with her opponent for no reason.

This is not a false dilemma, because all the alternatives you propose just lead back to the same conclusion.

 

[MrBreakout]

The opposite option still DOES exist considering the nature of how gameplay mechanics works, there's no true way to actually deduce how much effort she put in the battle especially when its an evasive one. You're ignoring the fact that the other option can still be out there, you even said that this is a profile thats a basic assumption so you'd only be conceding to this notion more since you're using one assumption rather than the others. There's an onus that needs to be proven on whether reimu struggled or not and since the evidence doesn't exist its just a haphazard deduction.

It completely is a false dilemma, another option exist yet there's no evidence proving either options presented and u know this

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Except that said options are meaningless and all lead to the same conclusion: Reimu is far stronger than the boss and this isn't a true fight. Which is still an assumption, and not a better one than assuming she put any kind of effort into the fight.

 

[MrBreakout]

they don't, how does reimu being able to not struggle lead to that haphazard conclusion? Yes its an assumption but the same can be said for the profile itself. I KNOW its not better than the one on the profile, thats the whole point of false dilemma. Do you not understand how this fallacy works, you cant choose one out of all the other haphazard deductions