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Early Modern AP Downgrade
The base cast of the Sonic series currently scales to 2-C right from the beginning of the Modern era via defeating these two, who upscale from the Super Egg Robot via these statements.
The Egg Wyvern and Egg Cerberus' statements of being Eggman's most “monstrous”, "terrible", and "terrifying" creations respectively are too vague in a power-scaling sense. Using them to upscale from a foe on par with a Super form is questionable at best when base form characters have not yet shown tier 2 scaling outside of that.
Even if we were to accept the statements as valid upscaling to the SER, base Sonic's scaling to it would quickly be undone by the fact that the events of 06 are wiped from the timeline by the end of the game, so no matter how you slice it, modern base characters should not keep their scaling to tier 2 until Sonic's first actual tier 2 feat in Sonic and the Secret Rings, which is blatant and remains consistant afterwards. The safest, most reasonable (and easiest from an indexing perspective) way to go about this is to simply downgrade the Egg Wyvern and the characters who scale to it,but another option could be to rate them “Possibly 2-C (in Sonic 06)”. I’m fine with either. I just think the former is far simpler, and that the “possibly” is a little generous considering the statements we’re dealing with.
I am no longer pushing for 06 characters being "Possibly 2-C". I do in fact think it is too generous.
New Rating:
Every affected key/character, most notably Sonic's "Sonic the Hedgehog (2006) - Sonic Riders: Zero Gravity" key would become High 3-A, scaling to the Babylon Guardian’s feat accepted here.
As supplementary feats, we have the Riders Zero Gravity feat accepted here and calculated by Mephistus here, and a speed feat from the same game (which is almost equal to the value the base cast of that era currently scales to) here.
Every character who scales to Sonic's "Sonic and the Secret Rings - Sonic Free Riders" key now downscales from baseline 2-C via defeating Erazor Djinn after he had absorbed half of the Arabian Nights, which comprises its main reality and the Night Palace, already accepted to be two separate space-time continuums. The same applies to Darkspine Sonic and Alf Layla-Wa Layla, except they straight up scale instead of downscaling.
Anyone who scales to his "Sonic Colors - Sonic Forces (Pre-Imprisonment)" key definitely keeps their current value of 2-C (12 universes) though, via Sonic defeating the Nega Wisp Armor, which is superior to the Super Egg Robot and the True Area 53 Boss. Werehog Sonic’s victory over the Egg Dragoon also allows it to keep this rating without it breaking the scaling chain.
Also, the timeline blog will move Sonic Riders to the very beginning of the Modern era via release date. Shake and I agreed that its current placement in the timeline is kind of arbitrary.
Super Form Lifting Strength Downgrade
Super forms currently all have immeasurable lifting strength due to upscaling from Darkspine Sonic. While this is perfectly reasonable for their peak power (and is even supported by their feat of pushing back Solaris) there is no reason to assume any Super form should always upscale from Darkspine Sonic at their weakest. The only thing this is based on is the numerous statements of Chaos Emeralds being jewels of ultimate/infinite power... A statement which could easily refer to them at their full power and has no reason to be assumed for their baseline. At no point are the Chaos Emeralds and the World Rings powering Darkspine Sonic ever directly compared in the first place.
New Rating:
The lifting strength of a Super form goes back to being variable. Multi-stellar (this calc x7 + the 7 usual low-balled Emerald multipliers as per usual), to Immeasurable (same reasoning as before).
Base Sonic (as of Generations) should scale to the former value via pushing back the Egg Dragoon and the Nega Wisp Armor, which are already accepted to be superior to the Super Egg Robot and the True Area 53 Boss, who currently scale to Adventure Super Sonic’s immeasurable value.
OP Parry Part 2
Sonic's parrying technique from Frontiers allows him to block damage from the Titans, most notably and most explicitly Knight, because the game itself incentivizes you to parry his attacks in order to progress, implying it is a canon ability and not a game mechanic. This would give the parry the ability to nullify physical damage up to 1-C. This has already been proposed and rejected, but here's why the arguments that got this rejected are no longer applicable. Keep in mind that this CRT was made before the release of the Final Horizons update to Sonic Frontiers.
The attack reflection and defensive capabilities of the technique should therefore be rated as "at most 1-C", just like Sage's forcefields already are. It should also be noted that ESP Silver and Neo Metal Sonic have access to the technique as of Sonic Speed Sim.
Even MORE Eggman Additions
-Power Nullification: (Can keep Wisps trapped inside of Wisp Capsules, despite the fact that they can normally use their powers to easily destroy or phase through those capsules from their exterior, meaning that their ability to do so must be nullified once they find themselves inside (which makes sense seeing as the whole reason Eggman captures them in the first place is to drain their power for himself)
(It’s also worth noting that the intangibility of the Jade Ghost Wisps is layered. Accepted here, but never applied to the profiles lol.)
-Chaos Energy Empowerment: (Via Chaos Drives (already on his profile), which are used to fill up Shadow's Chaos Gauge)
-Limited Resistance to Magnetic Field Manipulation: (Some of Eggman’s machines are “EM shielded” to protect themselves from the charged air caused by his Power Core manufacturing. As a result, they cannot be controlled by Zavok. It’s unknown how many of his machines actually have this protection)
-Further Dimensional Storage Manipulation (Even from outside the battlefield, can easily steal Mysterious Orbs from the player’s hammerspace and give them to his machines)
-Chaos Energy grants Eggman’s brainwashing laser 1 layer of potency, as using this power source for it would have allowed him to control Sonic’s mind if not for the 7 Chaos Emeralds absorbing back the Chaos energy to save him.
-The Phantom Ruby’s currently “Unknown” durability should be upgraded to “at least 2-C” as Modern Sonic repeatedly strikes Infinite in the chest with his homing attack and not once does his Phantom Ruby prototype get damaged as a result(which makes Bowser crushing it in the palm of his hand with no effort pretty funny).
-Eggman Nega’s camera and Egg Destroyer should be removed from Eggman’s profile and added to Nega’s instead. I don’t have to explain why. The real question is why it took so long to change this lol (Just noticed Nega’s profile in general is hella out-dated, damn…)
The True Area 53 Boss gains:
-Sealing AND Damage Transferal Negation/limited Durability Negation (Can make Super Sonic drop his rings after sealing him) You could argue this is invulnerability negation, but consider the fact that this is the only move it has that can do such a thing, and the fact that no Eggman machine can nullify a Super form's durability without the use of of artifacts such as the Chaos Emeralds or the Phantom Ruby, whereas some of his other inventions are already accepted to have the exact ability I’m proposing.
-Energy Projection AND Danmaku: (This should qualify for it)
BONUS
Silver gains:
-Stealth Proficiency: (Could sneak into a station past Soleanna’s guards) As atrociously designed as this mission is, even for 06 standards, it still counts, and was intended to be a stealth mission.
Amy gains:
-More evidence for her Martial Arts (boxing) and Accelerated Development. The rings around her wrists are even revealed to be training weights heavy enough to shake the ground when dropped, so her strength and speed should be at least slightly higher when she takes them off, but perhaps not to a notable enough extent to be brought up in her stat sections? We can decide that once it’s time to edit the profile I suppose.
Agree (15): @Dalesean027 , @JJSliderman , @CloverDragon03 (except Parry), @Omnificence , @Eseseso , @Sparkive (except Parry), @ShakeResounding (neutral on Parry), @Theuser789 (against "Possibly 2-C") @Omegabronic (in favor of "Possibly 2-C"), @Gilad_Hyperstar , @Cropfist , @Nierre @OrangeFR (except Parry)
LordGriffin1000 (except Parry), Maverick_Zero_X (neutral on Parry)
Disagree:
Neutral:
The base cast of the Sonic series currently scales to 2-C right from the beginning of the Modern era via defeating these two, who upscale from the Super Egg Robot via these statements.
The Egg Wyvern and Egg Cerberus' statements of being Eggman's most “monstrous”, "terrible", and "terrifying" creations respectively are too vague in a power-scaling sense. Using them to upscale from a foe on par with a Super form is questionable at best when base form characters have not yet shown tier 2 scaling outside of that.
Even if we were to accept the statements as valid upscaling to the SER, base Sonic's scaling to it would quickly be undone by the fact that the events of 06 are wiped from the timeline by the end of the game, so no matter how you slice it, modern base characters should not keep their scaling to tier 2 until Sonic's first actual tier 2 feat in Sonic and the Secret Rings, which is blatant and remains consistant afterwards. The safest, most reasonable (and easiest from an indexing perspective) way to go about this is to simply downgrade the Egg Wyvern and the characters who scale to it,
I am no longer pushing for 06 characters being "Possibly 2-C". I do in fact think it is too generous.
New Rating:
Every affected key/character, most notably Sonic's "Sonic the Hedgehog (2006) - Sonic Riders: Zero Gravity" key would become High 3-A, scaling to the Babylon Guardian’s feat accepted here.
As supplementary feats, we have the Riders Zero Gravity feat accepted here and calculated by Mephistus here, and a speed feat from the same game (which is almost equal to the value the base cast of that era currently scales to) here.
Every character who scales to Sonic's "Sonic and the Secret Rings - Sonic Free Riders" key now downscales from baseline 2-C via defeating Erazor Djinn after he had absorbed half of the Arabian Nights, which comprises its main reality and the Night Palace, already accepted to be two separate space-time continuums. The same applies to Darkspine Sonic and Alf Layla-Wa Layla, except they straight up scale instead of downscaling.
Anyone who scales to his "Sonic Colors - Sonic Forces (Pre-Imprisonment)" key definitely keeps their current value of 2-C (12 universes) though, via Sonic defeating the Nega Wisp Armor, which is superior to the Super Egg Robot and the True Area 53 Boss. Werehog Sonic’s victory over the Egg Dragoon also allows it to keep this rating without it breaking the scaling chain.
Also, the timeline blog will move Sonic Riders to the very beginning of the Modern era via release date. Shake and I agreed that its current placement in the timeline is kind of arbitrary.
Super Form Lifting Strength Downgrade
Super forms currently all have immeasurable lifting strength due to upscaling from Darkspine Sonic. While this is perfectly reasonable for their peak power (and is even supported by their feat of pushing back Solaris) there is no reason to assume any Super form should always upscale from Darkspine Sonic at their weakest. The only thing this is based on is the numerous statements of Chaos Emeralds being jewels of ultimate/infinite power... A statement which could easily refer to them at their full power and has no reason to be assumed for their baseline. At no point are the Chaos Emeralds and the World Rings powering Darkspine Sonic ever directly compared in the first place.
New Rating:
The lifting strength of a Super form goes back to being variable. Multi-stellar (this calc x7 + the 7 usual low-balled Emerald multipliers as per usual), to Immeasurable (same reasoning as before).
Base Sonic (as of Generations) should scale to the former value via pushing back the Egg Dragoon and the Nega Wisp Armor, which are already accepted to be superior to the Super Egg Robot and the True Area 53 Boss, who currently scale to Adventure Super Sonic’s immeasurable value.
OP Parry Part 2
Sonic's parrying technique from Frontiers allows him to block damage from the Titans, most notably and most explicitly Knight, because the game itself incentivizes you to parry his attacks in order to progress, implying it is a canon ability and not a game mechanic. This would give the parry the ability to nullify physical damage up to 1-C. This has already been proposed and rejected, but here's why the arguments that got this rejected are no longer applicable. Keep in mind that this CRT was made before the release of the Final Horizons update to Sonic Frontiers.
The damage transferral of rings shown off in Final Horizons has since shown that base form characters can shield themselves from 1-C attacks without the need of Chaos energy or anything of the likes. If equipment as common as the rings can do it, why not a specific technique learned in the Starfall Islands? On top of that, in that same story, Sage is explicitly shown and accepted to be able to temporarily block attacks from THE END with her forcefield. Why then is it such a stretch to believe the parry can allow base form characters on the same level as Sage to block attacks from Titans blatantly weaker than tethered Supreme?
The parry has no anti-feats, and no indication that it can't be smurf hax.
The attack reflection and defensive capabilities of the technique should therefore be rated as "at most 1-C", just like Sage's forcefields already are. It should also be noted that ESP Silver and Neo Metal Sonic have access to the technique as of Sonic Speed Sim.
Even MORE Eggman Additions
-Power Nullification: (Can keep Wisps trapped inside of Wisp Capsules, despite the fact that they can normally use their powers to easily destroy or phase through those capsules from their exterior, meaning that their ability to do so must be nullified once they find themselves inside (which makes sense seeing as the whole reason Eggman captures them in the first place is to drain their power for himself)
(It’s also worth noting that the intangibility of the Jade Ghost Wisps is layered. Accepted here, but never applied to the profiles lol.)
-Chaos Energy Empowerment: (Via Chaos Drives (already on his profile), which are used to fill up Shadow's Chaos Gauge)
-Limited Resistance to Magnetic Field Manipulation: (Some of Eggman’s machines are “EM shielded” to protect themselves from the charged air caused by his Power Core manufacturing. As a result, they cannot be controlled by Zavok. It’s unknown how many of his machines actually have this protection)
-Further Dimensional Storage Manipulation (Even from outside the battlefield, can easily steal Mysterious Orbs from the player’s hammerspace and give them to his machines)
-Chaos Energy grants Eggman’s brainwashing laser 1 layer of potency, as using this power source for it would have allowed him to control Sonic’s mind if not for the 7 Chaos Emeralds absorbing back the Chaos energy to save him.
-The Phantom Ruby’s currently “Unknown” durability should be upgraded to “at least 2-C” as Modern Sonic repeatedly strikes Infinite in the chest with his homing attack and not once does his Phantom Ruby prototype get damaged as a result
-Eggman Nega’s camera and Egg Destroyer should be removed from Eggman’s profile and added to Nega’s instead. I don’t have to explain why. The real question is why it took so long to change this lol (Just noticed Nega’s profile in general is hella out-dated, damn…)
The True Area 53 Boss gains:
-Sealing AND Damage Transferal Negation/limited Durability Negation (Can make Super Sonic drop his rings after sealing him) You could argue this is invulnerability negation, but consider the fact that this is the only move it has that can do such a thing, and the fact that no Eggman machine can nullify a Super form's durability without the use of of artifacts such as the Chaos Emeralds or the Phantom Ruby, whereas some of his other inventions are already accepted to have the exact ability I’m proposing.
-Energy Projection AND Danmaku: (This should qualify for it)
BONUS
Silver gains:
-Stealth Proficiency: (Could sneak into a station past Soleanna’s guards) As atrociously designed as this mission is, even for 06 standards, it still counts, and was intended to be a stealth mission.
Amy gains:
-More evidence for her Martial Arts (boxing) and Accelerated Development. The rings around her wrists are even revealed to be training weights heavy enough to shake the ground when dropped, so her strength and speed should be at least slightly higher when she takes them off, but perhaps not to a notable enough extent to be brought up in her stat sections? We can decide that once it’s time to edit the profile I suppose.
Agree (15): @Dalesean027 , @JJSliderman , @CloverDragon03 (except Parry), @Omnificence , @Eseseso , @Sparkive (except Parry), @ShakeResounding (neutral on Parry), @Theuser789 (against "Possibly 2-C") @Omegabronic (in favor of "Possibly 2-C"), @Gilad_Hyperstar , @Cropfist , @Nierre @OrangeFR (except Parry)
LordGriffin1000 (except Parry), Maverick_Zero_X (neutral on Parry)
Disagree:
Neutral:
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