Overwatch Downgrades: Part II

[KnightOfSunlight]

Nah, I agree with Sir Ovens.

It's understandable, even justified to get angry at Weekly for accusing people of things when they merely disagree.

But it's not justifiable to constantly pester and try to rile them up them when they are trying to gain proof and evidence.

Cool it, my guy.

 

[Antvasima]

I strongly agree with Sir Ovens. Berating and stressing Weekly is only going to make things worse. It is very possible that he is incorrect about this, but he does not mean any harm and has been a very helpful and hardworking staff member for a long time. Please give him a break and show patience for a day or two further. After that it should probably be fine to apply the agreed upon changes.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

I dont even need a day or two i only need an hour or so to get the rest of the scans together

 

[Antvasima]

@Weekly

Okay. No problem.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

D.Va:

• Micro Missiles: 1, 2 (What is there to calc here?)
• Defense Matrix: 1 (Again, nothing to calc)
• Boosters: 1, 2 (Nothing to calc)
• Self-Destruct: 1 (This could be calced I guess? I'm no expert)
• Light Gun: 1 (Literally did nothing against the omnic)

Orisa:

• Halt!: 1 (For reference, a Tobelstein Reactor is the thing that Zarya's gun uses to manipulate gravity) (Ok? At most this just adds scaling from Zarya. There's nothing to calc here, and even if there was, Zarya's grav is way more powerful than Orisa's)
• Fortify: 1, 2 (These aren't examples of fortify in neither scan is Orisa activating her ability. As for the second scan, we can't even calc anything because we weren't given context as to how Orisa stopped the car)

Reinhardt:

• Barrier Field: 1 2 3, 4 (All these feats are less than 9-A so why were these considered again?)
• Charge: 1 2 (Charge one-shots Bastions. Ok that can be scaled)
• Fire Strike: 1 (Great, more proof that Reinhard can one-shot Bastions)
• Earthshatter: 1 (What is there to calc again?)

Roadhog:

• Chain Hook: 1, 2
• Take a Breather: 1, 2
• Whole Hog: 1

Sigma:

• Hyperspheres: 1
• Experimental Barrier:
• Kinetic Grasp: 1
• Accretion: 1

Winston:

• Jump Pack: 1, 2
• Primal Rage: 1, 2, 3

Wrecking Ball:

• Grappling Claw: 1
• Minefield:

Zarya:

• Particle Barrier: 1
• Graviton Surge: 1

Ashe:

• Dynamite: 1
• B.O.B. 1

Bastion:

• Self-Repair: 1
• Configuration: Sentry: 1, 2, 3
• Configuration: Tank: 1

Doomfist:

• Rocket Punch: 1
• Seismic Slam: 1
• Rising Uppercut: 1
• Meteor Strike: 1

Genji:

• Swift Strike: 1, 2, 3
• Deflect: 1, 2
• Dragonblade: 1, 2, 3

Hanzo:

• Sonic Arrow: 1
• Scatter Arrow: 1
• Storm Arrows:
• Dragonstrike: 1

Junkrat:

• Concussion Mine: 1, 2
• Steel Trap: 1
• RIP-Tire: 1

McCree

• Fan the Hammer: 1, 2
• Combat Roll:
• Flashbang: 1
• Deadeye: 1

Mei:

• Ice Wall: 1
• Cryo-Freeze:
• Blizzard

Pharah:

• Jump Jet: 1
• Concussive Blast: 1
• Barrage:

Reaper:

• Wraith Form: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6
• Death Blossom: 1

Soldier: 76:

• Helix Rocket: 1
• Biotic Field:
• Tactical Visor: 1

Sombra:

• Hack: 1, 2, 3,
• Thermoptic Camo: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5
• Translocator: 1, 2, 3
• EMP:

Symmetra:

• Photon Orb: 1
• Sentry Turrets: 1, 2
• Teleporter: 1
• Photon Barrier: 1, 2

Torbjörn:

• Build Turret: 1, 2
• Overload:
• Armor Packs:
• Molten Core:

Tracer:

• Blink: 1, 2, 3, 4
• Recall: 1
• Pulse Bomb: 1, 2

Widowmaker:

• Grappling Hook: 1, 2, 3
• Venom Mine: 1
• Infra-Sight: 1, 2, 3

Ana:

• Sleep Darts: 1
• Biotic Grenade: 1
• Nano Boost: 1

Baptiste:

• Biotic Launcher: 1
• Immortality Field: 1
• Exo-Boots: 1, 2

Mercy:

• Angelic Descent: 1 (Nothing to calc)
• Guardian Angel: 1 (That's just her gliding down, that isn't Guardian Angel. Even if it was, there's still nothing to calc)
• Valkyrie: 1 (Ok yes, she can fly faster than cars, which is slower than her current speed rating)

Moira

• Biotic Grasp: 1, 2 (Nothing to calc)

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Heck. Ok so I wasn't supposed to post this yet but essentially I'm just pointing out which of the already posted feats were calcable.

So, as you can see from what little I looked through, there aren't many calcable feats. There is some evidence we can use for scaling, but that's as far as it goes.

I would continue looking through them, but I feel like I would get the same result. It's like 2.30 am in my area and I really want to go to sleep so take what you will from what I posted.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

@Sir I wasnt talking about any of those

This mech intercepts Reaper's shotgun from almost point blank range. Reaper beat this mech in a fight as shown later in the video.

Widow tanking the shockwave from the doomfist gauntlet, mauga tanking a pier exploding, Baptiste tanking a bomb, and or15s and heavy assault units falling from the sky all need to be calced

 

[Sir_Ovens]

For the Reaper calc, what is there to calc exactly? There was no actual screen time for the fight and we don't know how he took the mech down.

The Widow feat didn't even cause a crater. Also, the fist was literally destroyed after the punch so there's no way we can scale that to Doomfist.

As for the other feats, I lack knowledge in the web novels to give a take on whether they should be used or not but I doubt that they would give ratings higher than what they are rated now.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

The speed of the mech for being able to block the shotgun

Its a shockwave feat, it doesnt need to cause a crater. Doomfist uses a vastly superior version of that gauntlet in-canon.

They'd give consistncy

 

[Antvasima]

@Sir Ovens

Thank you for helping out.

 

[GojiBoyForever]

I apologize for offense I may have caused.

 

[Antvasima]

No problem. I did not notice anything provocative from yourself.

 

[KnightOfSunlight]

This thread is getting dangerously close to 500 posts, so we will need a new one soon.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Awesome work, Ovens. So, going off of your post, we're missing citations for these abilities:

Orisa

• Protective Barrier
• Supercharger

Sigma

• Experimental Barrier:

Wrecking Ball

• Minefield
• Piledriver
• Adaptive Shield

Hanzo

• Storm Arrows

McCree

• Combat Roll (jk)

Mei

• Cryo-Freeze:
• Blizzard

Pharah

• Barrage:

Reaper

• Shadow Step
• The Reaping

Soldier: 76

• Biotic Field:

Sombra

• EMP (Wait, seriously, we don't have any examples of her EMP?)

Torbjör

• Overload
• Armor Packs
• Molten Core

Ana

• Nano Boost: 1 (This scan doesn't show her doing a Nano Boost?)

Mercy

• Ressurect

Moira

• Fade
• Coalescence

Lucio

• Everything

Zenyatta

• Everything

Brigitte

• Everything

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Working on it, the hospital kinda has awful wifi so im stuck on mobile with a not great mindset

 

[Drite77]

Didn't Mercy ressurected 76 and/or Reaper in lore? Or were that just theories?

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Nope

Also Moira wears a Valkyrie suit identical to Mercy's just without the wings

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

I think it's confirmed that Moira contributed to Reaper's current state, or is at least doing something to him.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

It is confirmed, she's the one who made him like that in the first place through her experiments

 

[Abstractions]

If we are going strictly by comics as usable material then just go ahead and delete Zenyatta, he has no tangible lore whatsoever so nothing he has in his kit at all (right down to him levitating) would be considered canon.

Also Reaper doesn't eat souls anymore, the game removed that in favor of life-steal.

I'm not in favor of removing the abilities because we have characters that have abilities they never use in material outside of gameplay like Sephiroth nor half the Optional Equipment we seem to list for characters like the Scout, so I don't see an issue with Overwatch characters having their listed abilities, especially when it's all they have.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Zen does have lore tho, but thank god someone sees the issue with removing abilities just because they havent been used in lore yet

 

[GojiBoyForever]

And ban.

 

[Abstractions]

Zen does have lore tho.

His about me on the Overwatch website gives us nothing, and that's about all the lore he has besides his affiliation with Genji and that one Omnic that Widowmaker killed.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

I'm not in favor of removing the abilities because we have characters that have abilities they never use in material outside of gameplay like Sephiroth nor half the Optional Equipment we seem to list for characters like the Scout, so I don't see an issue with Overwatch characters having their listed abilities, especially when it's all they have.

It's kind of different when the gameplay that's being concerned has been outright stated that it shouldn't be taken at face-value as canon, where it has numerous contradictions, and the abilities can be completely changed, replaced, or removed for balancing. If Final Fantasy 7 somehow has all of the above issues, I'd suggest a similar revision for that verse.

So yeah, taking abilities from the game can't really be done in good faith. "Because it's all we have" doesn't really change the very fundamental issues with accepting the abilities, unless you're fine with Overwatch's game balancing changing match results and what we'd consider canon on the flip of a dime.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

In a game that is in a constant state of changing and updating i dont really see why that would be an issue seeing as the alternative is to nuke entire profiles solely for not having lore outside what is provided in-game

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

The alternative is possibly removing 2-3 profiles (Lucio, Zen, and possibly Brigitte but I really doubt that) because the characters haven't even been in any notable fights to begin with.

And yes, removing profiles for not having lore/informatio is fine.

The vast majority of the profiles already have abilities grounded in the lore. This isn't the "nuclear option" you're advertising it as.

It's far better than ignoring contradictions, writer statements, and practical retcons that operate off of game balancing.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Dargoo im sorry but removing characters solely because they havent fought in lore is ridiculous, and it wouldnt be 2-3 characters it would be half the verse.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Removing characters because they have no statistics that can be quantified is fine, which is the actual issue at hand.

it wouldnt be 2-3 characters it would be half the verse.

You put such good work into sourcing the vast majority of the verse abilities in the verse in the lore, and you think we'd still need to remove half the profiles? I even went over the abilities that weren't sourced, and it's at most 1-2 for less than half the cast. Lucio, Zen, and Brig are the only ones who lack any sourced abilities as of now.

I think you're exaggerating. A few profiles will have abilities removed, it's not the end of the world.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

all of the characters have quantifiable statistics.

Yes because by your logic of 'remove the characters if the have no lore and no notable fights' applies to almost half of the characters in the entire verse. I am in no way, shape, or form exaggerating.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

all of the characters have quantifiable statistics.

I don't see any for Zen and Lucio, but alright. Citations for both of 'em, please.

Yes because by your logic of 'remove the characters if the have no lore and no notable fights'

The vast majority of the characters you yourself listed have lore. They have combat feats.

You're practically arguing against your own comments upthread.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

I'd prefer this topic dropped anyways, given it was decided on twice at this point, by vast majority of the commenting staff.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

No, by your definition of what is required to have lore they do not have combat feats or lore.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

No, by your definition of what is required to have lore they do not have combat feats or lore.

Your own comment doesn't seem to reflect this opinion.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Im not going off of what i said, im going off of what you said. The characters have more than enough lore to warrant profiles for every character in the verse but for some reason in your eyes they do not. Half the verse has as much lore and combat feats as Lucio and Zen.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

"What I said" only applies to the three characters with no demonstrable scaling or abilities. I feel like I'm honestly more qualified to explain my own definitions, but I'd sure love specifics on where you're pulling this strawman from.

Half the verse has as much lore and combat feats as Lucio and Zen.

This is demonstrably false, going off of your own comment. Lucio, Zen, and Brigitte are the only heroes on that entire list with no sourced feats/abilities we could use.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

All of the characters have demonstrable scaling and canon abilities.

I just have yet to add them but they do in fact all have sourced feats and abilities.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

All of the characters have demonstrable scaling and canon abilities.

... have no lore and no notable fights' applies to almost half of the characters in the entire verse

What are you even arguing, anymore?

Do the characters have lore or not?

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Im saying they do, including Lucio and Zen. You are saying they dont. What im saying is that by the way you are describing Zen and Lucio, half of the characters who have equally absent combat feats (by which i mean they have combat feats that are simply not being recognized) they have an equally nonexistent lore, equally nonexistent scaling, and equally nonexistent abilities.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

I'm not?

I've been explaining maybe four times now that going off of your own compilation of evidence, only three profiles don't have demonstrable lore/scaling/feats.

If your point is that they have these abilities you've neglected to provide for who-knows how long, stop pushing your claims despite this.

So if you feel like the blanks don't exist, actually fill them in, instead of pretending that they're already cited to try and poke at arguments that are based on your evidence and lack thereof to begin with.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

The compilation of evidence is incomplete as i have previously stated several times. I was unable to complete it today because my uncle was rushed to the ER and had to get emergency surgery so i spent most of the day in the hospital with my family, sorry for the inconvenience.