Overwatch Downgrades: Part II

[Dargoo_Faust]

The problem is you continuing to make these claims despite not having the time to back them up, not why you're busy at a given time.

If you need time to deal with RL stuff, ask for it. You don't even need to explain the situation, just say "I have RL issues atm" and take a break from the wiki, and say that when stuff blows over you can post what you need to.

Seriously, spend time with your family, coming back to make the same arguments over and over again here is something that's likely taken hours of your time (as it's done with mine), which you really don't need to.

 

[HereComesBigBoi]

I wud kuat pout these ypgrades through mane this is paindul

 

[WeeklyBattles]

@Dargoo Well at this point its all i CAN do because if i dont and just leave then you guys are going to do more unnecessary damage that i will inevitably have to clean up myself. And since its very, very clear that no one here is willing to wait for me, i unfortunately cannot stop.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

You ca stop.

Seriously. The site shouldn't have to deal with the fallout of whatever's happining IRL with you because you can't drop a topic for a week or two.

I shouldn't even have to be talking about this to argue on a site about fictional character debates.

 

[Antvasima]

The problem is you continuing to make these claims despite not having the time to back them up, not why you're busy at a given time.

If you need time to deal with RL stuff, ask for it. You don't even need to explain the situation, just say "I have RL issues atm" and take a break from the wiki, and say that when stuff blows over you can post what you need to.

Seriously, spend time with your family, coming back to make the same arguments over and over again here is something that's likely taken hours of your time (as it's done with mine), which you really don't need to.

I agree with this. If you feel bad and have problems IRL, you should take a break and focus on that instead, and I am also open for talking with you in private if you need some support. As a staff member you have a responsibility to do your best to exhibit a measure of self-control.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Its not that im not showing self control its that i literally wasnt around to post the scans i said i was going to post

 

[Antvasima]

Anyway, I think that we should proceed with MrKing's and Dargoo's suggested changes, so this discussion can finally end.

 

[Antvasima]

@Weekly

Okay, but you still need to let this go and focus on feeling better in private, rather than stress yourself up over this.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Orisa

• Protective Barrier Not in Lore
• Supercharger Not in Lore

Sigma

• Experimental Barrier: Not in Lore

Wrecking Ball

• Minefield Not in Lore
• Piledriver Not in Lore
• Adaptive Shield Not in Lore

Hanzo

• Storm Arrows Not in Lore

Mei

• Cryo-Freeze: Not in Lore
• Blizzard 1

Pharah

• Barrage:1

Reaper

• Shadow Step: Shadow Step and Wraith Form are used in conjunction with each other in the lore.
• The Reaping 1, 2 (For reference, what ana is referring to is Moira's Biotic Grasp, which works by draining life from cells to heal her. Reaper's guns work the same way)

Soldier: 76

• Biotic Field: 1

Sombra

• EMP Not in Lore

Torbjör

• Overload Not in Lore
• Armor Packs Not in Lore
• Molten Core Not in Lore

Ana

• Nano Boost: 1 (The nano-boost canister is equipped on her arm, the bright blue tube)

Mercy

• Ressurect Not in Lore

Moira

• Fade Not in Lore
• Coalescence Not in Lore

Lucio

• Everything

Zenyatta

• Everything

Brigitte

• Everything

I will do the rest tomorrow

 

[The_man_with_the_Midas_touch]

so are characters with no lore abillities going to be deleted than?

 

[WeeklyBattles]

All characters have lore abilities

 

[Udlmaster]

I agree with what Dragoo is saying.

If you have a family matter, it is best you kept that between your family and spent time with them, not going ad nausuem on a debating website.

No one here is gonna go ahead and push revisions if you came to the thread and did something along the lines of:

"Hey guys, I'm sorry if this is an inconvenience but a family matter has occurred and I'm not going to be able to debate for a while."

But instead of that, you've continued to go on ad nausuem when we're still stuck at square one "citations".

If you're busy, then you're busy nothing one can do, take a break for as long as you need and come back when you're more free, because it looks like you're making up an excuse, and I would prefer not to think that.

 

[Abstractions]

It's kind of different when the gameplay that's being concerned has been outright stated that it shouldn't be taken at face-value as canon, where it has numerous contradictions, and the abilities can be completely changed, replaced, or removed for balancing. If Final Fantasy 7 somehow has all of the above issues, I'd suggest a similar revision for that verse.

So yeah, taking abilities from the game can't really be done in good faith. "Because it's all we have" doesn't really change the very fundamental issues with accepting the abilities, unless you're fine with Overwatch's game balancing changing match results and what we'd consider canon on the flip of a dime.

I'd agree if it weren't for the lack of media to contradict them having those abilities, if a majority of the powers have been demonstrated in other media we should be able to have faith that an underdeveloped character has the same abilities they are listed with.

I just find it odd especially when we accept things like event moves for Pokemon that have no justification of having them, and haven't used them in any other media.

 

[GojiBoyForever]

Pokemon are composite profiles iirc.

 

[Abstractions]

Pokemon are composite profiles iirc.

If we are willing to compile everything into those pages despite their varying canonicity, then what is the issue with the abilities here?

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

I'd agree if it weren't for the lack of media to contradict them having those abilities,

So "the gameplay shouldn't be taken as strictly canon" isn't enough, the abilities being rotated out based on game balancing isn't enough, the discrepancy between how abilities work in-game and in-lore even when established isn't enough, you think I need to give you contradictions for feats that don't exist in the lore to begin with, something that's logically impossible do do?

I feel like the breadth of examples I gave is far more than enough. So did the vast majority of both regular users and staff on this thread.

if a majority of the powers have been demonstrated in other media we should be able to have faith that an underdeveloped character has the same abilities they are listed with.

Not really? Need I point out, again, the various contradictions between established lore/game abilities and the possibility of abilities being swapped out or removed altogether?

Whatever we decide on a whim to add to the pages can't be added in good faith that it's accurate or won't be effectively retconned for reasons not even related to the story.

I just find it odd especially when we accept things like event moves for Pokemon that have no justification of having them, and haven't used them in any other media.

We're discussing Overwatch, not Pokemon. They aren't remotely related so I fail to see how comparing them does anything to my arguments.

At best, Pokemon had circumstances that give them justification for what they do that Overwatch doesn't, at worst, it might need a similar treatment to the one OW is getting now. But I shouldn't need to discuss Pokemon to discuss Overwatch, so let's not, please.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Mei

We've already discussed this, that page is from concept art for gameplay abilities.

Reaper

It's a bit vague, honestly (if it wasn't for the end of Old Soldiers I'd argue that he needs to physically move from one place to another instead of just teleporting), but I'll give you that.

Soldier: 76

Where exactly was that pulled from? I'm concerned it's from a screen in-game.

Ana

I'm more concerned with it's effects than the fact that it exists in the first place, but if you're just demonstrating that it exists, I suppose it does.

The rest are good.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Where exactly was that pulled from? I'm concerned it's from a screen in-game.

https://twitter.com/PlayOverwatch/status/750736158624215040

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Also youre gonna hate me but the concept art book shows Shadow Step and Wraith Form being used in conjunction too

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

First, thanks.

Second, looks good.

 

[Antvasima]

It seems like Dargoo has accepted several of Weekly's examples. What does this mean for these revisions as a whole?

 

[MrKingOfNegativity]

It just means those accepted examples can be used as evidence of those characters having the abilities related to each.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. That is probably fine then.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Lucio

Sonic Amplifier and Hardlight Skates

Everything else is not in lore

Zenyatta

Covers pretty much everything

Brigitte

Flail and shield and their abilities

Everythig else is not in lore

 

[Ayewale]

I agree with most of the suggested changes here as well.


I think my only peeve is with the Pokemon example presented earlier, which is absolutely correct but doesn't really belong here. Someone should make a CRT for that.

 

[Antvasima]

@MrKing & Dargoo

So what are the conclusions here?

 

[Schwxnz]

We still need to find solid speed feats for the verse to scale to; both calcs listed on Genji's profile come from gameplay.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

I already listed speed feats to scale to

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

LucioSonic Amplifier and Hardlight Skates
Zenyatta

Covers pretty much everything

It seems to be describing the gameplay abilities, akin to the Mei scan.

Brigitte

Flail and shield and their abilities

Everythig else is not in lore

This looks fine, though.

@Ant

Since Weekly told me off-site these were the last remaining stuff he had for the OW abilities, I think we can start applying AP changes; I'll be making drafts for the pages that use the references format to justify powers and abilities.

I think all that remains after that is calcing a number of the feats Weekly listed above, which I can do myself this weekend.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Its not referring to the gameplay abilities, i posted scans of the way they work in lore, disregard the portion of lucio's scan that has gamplay stuff as its non-canon

There realyl is no reason at all to make draft profiles

 

[Anomalous_N_I_W_D_E]

Dang this is one long as heck post.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

There realyl is no reason at all to make draft profiles

Since there has been so much contention over the profiles, I'd rather we make a draft of the proposed changes before changing them, since we still don't seem to be on the same page here.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

What contention? There is not nearly enough information being added or removed from any of the profiles to warrant a full draft for every single profile in the verse. The changes being made here are extremely minor.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Various abilities are going to be removed from nearly half of the profiles (with some kind of losing all of their abilities) and tiering is going to be changed dramatically, and might need to be changed again due to calculations.

I'd like to draft changes as a courtesy to you Weekly, so we don't have to come back here after changes are already on the pages.

 

[MeleeniumRXJ]

What happened to scaling from Hammond's fall from outer space? That was calculated at large building level.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

It was recalced to 9-A

 

[Drite77]

Wasn't 9-B with terminal velocity?

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Terminal velocity wasnt used, what was used was the speed to catch on fire through speed

 

[Drite77]

Was i the one who recalc that?

 

[MeleeniumRXJ]

I vaguely remember doing the calc myself which got accepted I think. I was also the first to even point out this feat, and I used typical reentry speeds, which resulted comfortably within High 8-C. I'm pretty sure things that fall from orbit, do not have a chance to slow down to terminal velocity. I think that would be erroneous to use.

On top of that, this was before Hammond modified the pod to be a battle mech.