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Overlord additions (Overlord Bonus Volume)

Dargoo hasn't entirely agreed with any of the arguments though, he has said he has mostly agreed with Lsir's so far (him pointing out that both arguments are using too much speculation doesn't help much), so I don't think he's completely against the idea of WCI resistances being general resistances just yet.

Either way, even if WCI resistances doesn't become general resistances, would that mean Ainz still keeps his resistance to Soul Manipulation and EE?
 
So new user here, pitching in my own opinion or questions on this.


So wait, when was it mentioned that possessing Wild Magic makes you immune to other Wild Magic? Did I miss something in the Side Story?

Also Ainz not using his WCI doesn't seem that out of character, I mean in the main timeline the guy didn't even recognize the threat of an enemy WCI until the Shalltear incident. If that didn't happen I very much doubt he would had equipped the Guardians with WCI's of their own, despite the fact he truly believed theres a high chance of players existing in the New World. Also if Ainz truly wanted to be 100% of his victory, he wouldn't had withhold the 3 other trump cards against Cure and immediately use them instead of waiting for Cure to attack.

Now both sides are build on assumptions, however it requires less assumptions on just saying the 2 magic systems are different rather than trying to prove Wild Magic and Tier Magic play by similar enough rules so that WCI only affect Wild Magic and other WCI. I mean I don't get why Wild Magic isn't affected by YGGDRASIL restrictions (for example, able to ignore resistance/immunity) yet suddenly Wild Magic must be connected because its unable to affect WCI users.

Also question, wasn't Ainz still affected by Wild Magic when he did have his WCI equipped? Pretty sure Cure casted a Wild Magic spell for anti-teleportation and Ainz was still unable to teleport outside the perimeters, unless I'm misremembering here.

Mostly stating my own perspective and questions on this, but I really don't think most other verses require this much evidence or arguing for certain resistances. I mean plenty of Naruto characters have mind manipulation resistance, despite the fact technically the techniques that manipulate the mind in the verse just target the chakra paths within the brain system (although maybe they use other evidence to decide such things) but its not up to me to decide how this site manages things.
 
The resistance to EE derives from the general resistance thing from WCi so no.

The soul thing needs the actual quote of what happened or just someone that remembers that part to give the details.

Also it doesn't let me post the quote... You can see it in Keno's translated profiles Pen, the notes below her class levels.
 
Deathnoodles Ive been arguing in circles for days, Im burned out I still don't agree but neither I nor sir lance has any solid evidence from the text to support our side. If dragoo thinks he's right Im done arguing, maybe we'll get lucky and see someone resist a general mind control effect due to a world class item until than all we know for sure is this.

Of the three types of magic that exist in new world (teired, world class, and wild) wcl offer protection against two out of three until we get confirmation on the first this argument is basically a case of interpeting the text.
 
@Bonesdrowy Welcome to the group bone.

Never said no, it's just a personal assumption. Ainz gets ready to use everything in his arsenal and even after the battle is over thinks he could have died if any part of his plan failed. Despite this, at no points does he consider using the ability that would be very effective on dragons from his World Item. If WCI protect from WCI and Wild Magic protects from Wild Magic and WCI protects from Wild Magic, considering what I said above, it makes a lot of sense.

Plus, he was with holding them because Ainz has no reason to use them if everything is still going smoothly, but he still planned to use them if needed and even mentions them. Unlike the world item.

If it's only equal is WCI and we assume is on the level of WCI, why would it abide by it's restrictions? Downfall of Castle and Country doesn't care about mind immunity. Plus, Wild Magic acts more like WCI than it does Tier Magic, not reacting to both of them the same makes sense. Tier Magic isn't even the same as WCI after all, it shouldn't behave the same with both.

And apparently, but teleportation is not an effect. You don't resist it, you just have spells that interfere with it.

That's more an issue of equalization. Having chakra is an universal trait in Naruto, so when we equalize we just decide this applies to the character and move as usual (unless common sense says the contrary, for example a robot opponent. If he has no biological brain, we have no reason to assume he has Chakra or can produce chakra or whatever, so equalization doesn't work here. At least, that's how I understood it).
 
So, the new spells and Guild Staff's capabilities for Ainz gets added, but the WCI resistances being turned into general resistances remains to be seen for now (thus, the resistances doesn't get added).

Is this basically the summary of this thread?
 
Can't beleive I missed that, yeah looks like she kept her intellegence due to absorbing there souls. So lowest teirs of undead lack souls why higher teir have them (at least thats what it looks like at the moment)? Saying that How does that function?

She seemingly doesn't have her own soul anymore as she'll turn into a zombie if she lets go of the souls she did steal. How do the souls in overlord fuction? are they required for a being to be intellegent? Do golems have souls?

Also why did she turn into a vampire rather than something else? I guess it's due to cure elm being a vampire? Does this mean only vampires have souls? What about other types of undead? How does one normally become a vampire in new world?
 
Who knows, perhaps it's a matter of, in the case of someone like Shalltear, being born a vampire rather than made one.

Plus, remember that all the undead we've seen so far are mindless but controlled by someone. The exceptions are experiments like Iguva, who was made a lich so he would need to be intelligent, and the high class undead that are born in a dead spiral and not "created". Even that dude with the death orb needed to turn an entire city into a land of death to charge the Dearh Ball and become an intelligent Lich. It would seem that some classes of undead just aren't intelligent, and others can be but they need to circumvent it somehow (Cure absorbing souls). In the case of Keno, she's dead but her body is whole unlike a skeleton, so perhaps vampire was the best she could become.
 
The battle scene in this book might have ended up becoming confusing. Originally, perhaps there might have been a need to go "this is why he did so and so" but I deliberately omitted it. This work really does place a big burden on its readers. Perhaps I might have failed as a LN author, but like I've said many times, I personally think "it doesn't matter if you don't understand."

Maruyama takes your questions, and raises you "It doesn't matter if you don't understand"
 
Ugh the author hates simple explanations.... Saying that we now know dragon lords cant use teired magic without becoming undead which is interesting, I wonder why?

Though it seems cure elm screwed himself with his transformation, while it allowed him to grow in power he basically linked his mana bar to his health (As using to many souls will lead to his own death) while not a massive weakness it basically garentees his loss if it comes to a war of attrition without his armor.
 
Because, "technically", an undead dragon isn't a dragon anymore. It's pretty much that simple. Ainz did say the undead were stronger depending on the body but lost most skills or abilities.

But granted, there's barely anyone that can get through that armor. Ainz was very well geared in skills for it, so he was his nemesis.
 
It has been stated that Dragon Lords can not under normal circumstances practice both the usage of Wild Magic and Tier Magic together simultaneously. If one were to invest in one form of magic than they would be unable to use the other, however, a notable exception would allow bypassing this restriction under certain conditions.

Intersting that you have to choose one or the other unless you're Cure
 
Hmm I guess in the end even becoming an undead wasn't perfect solution for cure as his wild magic could now kill him. Still its strange that dragons are blocked from learning teired magic but undead dragons aren't, sigh....

It sounds like something about being a dragon blocks teired magic rather than it being a problem with the two systems interacting. How could the frost dragon use teired magic!

Maybe its because he was so young? Could it be beings around before the teired magic was introduced simply lack mana bars? Perhaps cure's becoming undead was considered a rebirth?

edit This author is going to melt my brain even more than the ones that have charcters moving faster than light.
 
From the wiki.

Very few Dragon Lords to this day can use Wild Magic, which grants them abilities completely different from Tier Magic. However, it seems that the essence of Wild Magic was corrupted by the invasion of YGGDRASIL players, so it is becoming more and more difficult to use Wild Magic properly.

Also, there are some dragons like the Blue Sky Dragon Lord, and the White Dragon Lord, in the New World who have already begun practicing or using Tier Magic rather than their traditional Wild Magic.

So it looks like something about Tier Magic is just too fundamentally different from Wild Magic, so when you practice it you can't go back to Wild Magic
 
tbf that's 14 volumes worth of info you'd have to remember

The wiki has a hard time of putting sources for everything, for some reason
 
Fair but we never hear much about the dragon lords and thats a lot of imformation I feel I would remeber it coming up....SIGH guess Im reading them again!

Edit I wonder if they are using info from the web novel to fill in blanks?
 
Yeah I have a theory on that perhaps there was a powerful dragon who brought a group of players in to serve some purpose? Perhaps after he pulled the first few through whatever magic dragged them through didn't stop? Its hard to know with so little info but I think its safe to assume something this dragon emperor did lead to players appearing in the world.

Edit: Or he may have dragged teired magic alone into new world only to have other elements of yggdrasil leak in after?
 
I can't remember how many monsters we farmed for their drops… anyway, in addition, the Staff's power is beyond that of a divine class item. In fact, it almost approaches that of a World Class Item. Its most potent feature is its automatic engagement system… cough, cough."

13 volumes later, it is finally shown

Maruyama's definitely taking his time with Overlord, which I do appreciate
 
Just to clarify, I'm fine with everything prior to the WCI resistances and stuff related to that.
 
Since Keeno loses her intelligence if her Wild Magic spell is broken, shouldn't that weakness be added to Evileye's profile as well?
 
LSirLancelotDuLacl said:
@Bonesdrowy Welcome to the group bone.

Never said no, it's just a personal assumption. Ainz gets ready to use everything in his arsenal and even after the battle is over thinks he could have died if any part of his plan failed. Despite this, at no points does he consider using the ability that would be very effective on dragons from his World Item. If WCI protect from WCI and Wild Magic protects from Wild Magic and WCI protects from Wild Magic, considering what I said above, it makes a lot of sense.

Plus, he was with holding them because Ainz has no reason to use them if everything is still going smoothly, but he still planned to use them if needed and even mentions them. Unlike the world item.

If it's only equal is WCI and we assume is on the level of WCI, why would it abide by it's restrictions? Downfall of Castle and Country doesn't care about mind immunity. Plus, Wild Magic acts more like WCI than it does Tier Magic, not reacting to both of them the same makes sense. Tier Magic isn't even the same as WCI after all, it shouldn't behave the same with both.

And apparently, but teleportation is not an effect. You don't resist it, you just have spells that interfere with it.

That's more an issue of equalization. Having chakra is an universal trait in Naruto, so when we equalize we just decide this applies to the character and move as usual (unless common sense says the contrary, for example a robot opponent. If he has no biological brain, we have no reason to assume he has Chakra or can produce chakra or whatever, so equalization doesn't work here. At least, that's how I understood it).
Click to expand...
Sorry for the late reply, been busy with life.

There could literally be a plethora of different reasons as to why Ainz waited to use his WCI, for example we do not even know how it works yet, perhaps it has a long recharge, a specific requirement, or anything else. This is the problem with an argument that hinges on multiple assumptions, especially since you already just assumed Wild Magic makes one immune to other Wild Magic despite there being zero indication of this in the novels. Part of your argument rely on that fact that Wild Magic must make one immune to Wild Magic, but this is a heavy assumption that would need significant evidence to back it up rather than intuition or personal interpretation.

The author himself admitted to omitting parts of the fight, this could also include internal monologue that could justify why Ainz didn't mention or use the WCI. Some of your argument seems to rely on a absence of evidence (could be wrong here), again using such a scene is based on one's interpretation, for example I could argue that Ainz was simply too paranoid and refused to use such an Item on the bases that perhaps Cure had a stronger technique than what he excepts or have a counter to a WCI. Or perhaps he simply just made a mistake, I mean main timeline Ainz refused to equip the NPCs with WCIs despite the fact of high level players being a very real possibility in his head and it took a massive incident (the Shalltear incident) to shock him with reality. He also based some thinking on personal thinking as well, such as when he risked his own life against Shalltear and hinged a large part of his stragedy on the bases that Shalltear overestimated herself. Which makes sense but still a pretty large risk.

How does Wild Magic fincfion similar to a WCI? While yes Wild Magic can bypass certain resistances, its obviously doesn't ignore all resistances especially physical since PDL himself stated that Shalltear was possibly too powerful (which would make very little sense if his Wild Magic can bypass all her resistances) or how would any Dragon Lord be a threat with Wild Magic if every Guardian are equipped with a WCI. Plus we've seen that some Wild Magic spells aren't on the level of certain WCIs, for example I've yet to see a Wild Magic spell that can affect things on a planetary scale, plus the anti-teleportation Wild Magic spell is nowhere near Ouroboros.

My point with is that Ainz WCI failed to make him immune to the anti-teleportation Wild Magic spell, but made him immune to the spell similar to Longinus. Which would support the general resistance argument rather that WCI makes one immune to all Wild Magic rather than specific spells. Although this could also because the author omitted relevant information that could had explain why Ainz couldn't teleport. Also if its true that certain Dragon Lords can learn tier magic (but have to give up Wild Magic) than that would mean the Dragon Lords weren't immune to the WCI that implemented Tier Magic in the first place, but this is delving into speculation.

But Chakra isn't a universal trait, it was energy that was spread across humanity unnaturally by that rabbit goddess son I believe. And what if that naruto character faced a character whose verse doesn't have a energy equivalent to chakra? Cause people would still argue that they can mind control with chakra against these characters despite them lacking a energy equivalent. Besides Naruto was just an example, theres plenty of other series that this wiki decided such things despite there being specific to the verse. This was mostly to point out that I really doubt any other verse would require this much evidence or arguing if theres enough support text.

Actually Naruto did gave me a interesting thought. Lets say I agree that WCI just counters Wild Magic because they share a relationship or connection, but have you ever wonder why? Perhaps a WCI counters Wild Magic because its a power from a separate universe and thus counters that natural universal magic of a different world, similar to Ghidorah from the Godzilla anime trilogy. Perhaps the protection of 'the world' is actually absolute in both worlds (Yggdrasil and the New World), this kind of speculation would actually still give Ainz general resistance, buuuut its just speculation.

Though both arguments are based on assumptions, but your particular argument are based on far more assumptions and some of those assumptions are made with little evidence from the actual light novels and based on personal interpretation (hope that doesn't come out as too rude or blunt, theres still some points of your argument I definitely agree with). I support the general resistance until the Novels or Author provide further feats/proof that would counter it, as for now I would think that actually having an feat of resisting EE from a seperate source of magic should be enough for any other verse.

Also thanks for the welcome.
 
Again I think this is building down to "both arguments make assumptions but mine makes less"; and while both theories make a lot of sense, neither are very well backed by explicit evidence from the series.

What I think the series has demonstrated thus far is that WCIs interfere with Magic that would otherwise interfere or prevent its effects from taking place. This is why they so easily plow through resistances and can't be undone even by wishing magic.

I get that Overlord is a verse that doesn't like to explain more than it needs to, but we shouldn't base sweeping resistances and powers off of assumptions.

That said I'm still evaluating both sides of this; I think both LSir and those supporting general resistances have points here.
 
I was actually sort of hoping you two would come to an agreement since I don't like being the deciding factor
 
I can say with absolute certainty that will never happen! At least in this case.

You could always go with the majority opionion but I feel aweful suggesting that as I have a clear bias towards my argument and thats what most in this thread agree with.

edit Basically it'd feel like cheating, go with what you feel is right

Final edit, looking at your profile pic all I can imagine is that face peeking out over a fence observing lance and I's debate waiting for a clear victor.

Bones good to meet you!
 
Tbh, I feel like we'll never get anything definitive. The people with WCIs are lvl 100s, who are immune to any tier magic from the New World, so it's not like the WCI will be needed to resist anything anyway. The only ones who could affect them are Dragon Lords, who use Wild Magic, which is apparently too similar to count. So . . .
 
That similarity is an assumption though I agree in the twenty plus volumes (counting the web novels) We have never gotten (solid) confirmation either way, this is the closest we're liable to get. Especially since ainz already has so many immunities and the level one hundreds negate everything below sixth teir. Think about it one of the only people we know of in new world who can use sixth teir magic is flueder and he litterally kisses the ground ainz walks on. He was ready to lick ainz boots clean

Edit, Part of me really just wants more flueder, Id read a flueder side story (preferably taking place in the main timeline.)
 
I don't think the majority or my personal opinion on the matter should rule. I feel like you both have good arguments; it might benefit to call over other Overlord supporters to chip in on these changes, like FDrybob.

If there really is an impasse and no consensus can be reached, I'll make a call, though.
 
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