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Overlord additions (Overlord Bonus Volume)

That should be unrelated as it directly affects the AP of a number of characters, but this is just an added weakness as we know she'd go mindless zombie if she released the spell or the souls were killed.
 
From what I can tell, she can use the spell normally. It's just that she can't drop a spell without using it first.
 
Fair enough I was only thinking of it as related due to the actual downgrade comeing from us no longer scaling to her city destroying feat. That weakness like the above things are set in stone, the only thing under consideration is the nature of wci resistances.
 
I think that until we have more information, there's too much contention to say for sure. We should hold off on the WCI resistances for now.
 
EE resistance should be fine, though, since that was explicitly shown with Ainz.

And Soul Manip. since that should of been added in the past, anyways, and this is only more inclination to add it.
 
InfiniteSped said:
Apparently Wild Magic is too similar to WCI to count, so the EE shouldn't apply either.
Click to expand...
And I don't know why thats even an argument. Its base on multiple assumptions thats based on zero indication from the novels besides personal interpretation of small pieces of text. In order for Wild Magic to be too similar to WCI we need to prove these points.

1. Wild Magic makes one immune to other Wild Magic (again no actual evidence or even indication of this in the novels).

2. A WCI makes one immune to all Wild Magic and vice versa, despite this being false as Ainz WCI didn't cancel out the anti-teleportation Wild Magic spell and Drsgon Lords are still capable of learning Tier Magic (at the cost of losing Wild Magic) which shows that Dragon Lords were still subject to the WCI that implemented Tier Magic into the NW.

3. Wild Magic can pierce ALL resistances just like a WCI, however this is false as how would ANY Dragon Lord lose a NPC/Player without a WCI. PDL himself admitted that he probably couldn't defeat an unequipped Shalltear which would make absolute no sense if his spells can pierce all of her resistances.

4. Making assumptions base on Ainz behavior with his WCI and the WCI itself. Which shouldn't even be used as the author himself admitted to omitting parts of the fight.

The only thing similar between Wild Magic and WCI is that WCI cancels out Wild Magic (only specific Wild Magic was canceled). We do not know the reason for this, for all we know it could because the WCI is actually absolute in both worlds.

I don't know why there's even any contention, WCI already counters both Tier and Wild magic (Wish is just a super tier spell), two different magic sources. This should be enough to support general resistance to specific effects or at the very least EE resistance. This is no different than Chakra countering mind control in Naruto (the same mind control that specifically targets the Chakra within the brain system), a energy source showing to only be able to counter the exact energy source, yet its still allow as general mind control resistance. (Sorry for keep using Naruto as an example, my mind has failed me in thinking of a better example)

Besides Wild Magic is technically the natural universal magic within the New World before Tier Magic was forced into the world, so by energy equivalency rules shouldn't counterimg Wild Magic be enough to give general resistance?

Hope I didn't come out as harsh for those in the opposition side.
 
Bones you are my new favorite person.

Edit: It kinda feels like people are just sick of how long this has been going on which while I understand it I disagree with.

final edit: It takes far less in the way of assumptions to take the resistances we already knew existed between world class items and switch them to general than it does to equate wild magic to world class items. Not only would we have to assume wild magic and world class items occupy many of the same mechanics but we would also have to make assumptions about how wild magic and world class items work.

Which is utterly redicoulous when we have seen wild magic all of one time's in this series and we know ainz has ten world class items and we know what three of them actually do.
 
Look, if someone literally survives Existence Erasure, then I'm pretty sure they resist existence erasure.
 
Literally what me and bone are saying, we know anz resist existence erasure from two seperate forms of magic, wild and world class. Now the only way this makes sense is either A) world class items offer general resistances, or B) they offer resistance to world class items and wild magic.

With option A only one assumption needs to be made and thats the resistances we knew about world class items are general. If we go with B we are forced to assume the mechanics, nature, and interactions between world class items and wild magic.

Edit: Both require an assumption but B requires far more assumptions and many of them of a more complex nature than If we went with A
 
Quite bluntly, I don't see the debate. If a character can canonically resist Wild Magic and World Items, with Wild Magic being vastly different to Yggdrasil magic, while Yggdrasil Resistances not being solely limited to Yggdrasil items, what is there to say?

If one is to believe we can deny not just the World Item resistances, but also Existence Erasure explicitly resisted, then we'd need to CRT quite a bit of the verse. Which we don't have to, since that's simply now how it works.

Yggdrasil items and resistances were translated, in a sense, into New World resistances. This is why New World low-level magic and attacks can barely harm Ainz, and why items that can negate durability and resistances such as Razor Edge can bypass those resistances. So now that it's been confirmed that World Item resistances apply to Wild Magic, a type of magic very much different from Yggdrasil tiering in every sense of the word, I would really be interested in hearing how it is not a resistance if there are two seperate records of it working against vastly different types of magic.
 
The only argument is we haven't seem them interact with teired magic, a poor argument as the only world class item effect that has a eqvilant in teired magic is mind control and realty warping.

Edit as said above option B requires us to equate two different sytsems of magic even though they function on different principles (Wild magic consuming souls) and they come from two different worlds.
 
Wild Magic preceeds Tiered Magic, and World Class Items are the very peak of the Tiered Magic system. So one example came from before Tiered Magic even existed, completely separate from Yggdrasil, while the other was the very pinnacle of tiered magic. Two opposite sides of the spectrum.
 
My point exactly they are two incredibly different sources and forms of magic assuming the resistances would only apply to these two forms would be the height of idiocy as it requires us to assume world magic and wild magic are somehow equivlant.
 
Burden of Proof says that if someone wants to claim that it's completely disassociated from magic, they have to prove it.

I'm fairly sure if something applies to both extremes, it applies to the in-between too.
 
Any more arguments that have yet to be debunked?
 
None that I can think of sir lance may come back later though, as far as I remeber his whole argument relies on the points made above.

His stance boiled down to that it would somehow be require less assumptions to think wild magic and world class just had special resistances to eachother.
 
His only other argument was ainz lack of mentioning/using it at times he felt it would be useful, saying that I feel he may be reading a different light novel as ainz rarly explains his stratgy, actions, or even the nature of the magic he uses. We learn he has a wci in the overlord prolouge, we learn it has some special ability against dragons in volume 11 and those are the total amount of times ainz has mentioned and refrenced it...

Edit hell we literally just saw the staff self engagment system that was again mentioned in the prolouge. We still aren't clear on why ainz ended up as the guildmaster over everyone else in the guild. Our main theory is due to him being freinds with everyone in the guild but we have never gotten confirmation on if thats why he was choosen.

My point the author leaves out prevelent info all the time, wether they be about ainz abilities (we know where fifty five of his levels have gone, and no idea what those other levels do. Same with all the gaurdians we know only where half there levels have gone each one only has Fourty five to fifty of there levels accounted for.) Ainz thought processes (Taking off the ring of self ressurection against shalltear just because) the nature of magic (Wish upon a star being able to grant many different wishes with the only caveat being it cant interfere with a world class item)

Final edit my point being using ainz not mentioning or using something is a terrible foundation for any argument.
 
Using what at times, resistances? You can't really 'use' resistances. As for using World Items, he wishes to save them as just-in-case failsafes.

As well, Ainz became guildmaster because people such as Tabula pretty bluntly stated they would not accept anyone other than Ainz as the guild leader.
 
Before Ainz entered a true battle with cure elm he removed all his powerful gear including the world class item, he feels ainz would have kept it on for the resistances...I don't really get the logic of that either. as ainz removed all his good gear in order to trick cure elm.

Sure but why was ainz the only one they would accept? Why not a better planner? Or a tactician? I figure its due to him being freinds with everyone in the guild but thats never explicitly stated in the text. Im just highlighting the fact the author rarely gives us much in the way of concrete information and loves to leave things that'd be good to know out.
 
What exactly would Ainz be looking to resist from Shalltear? Shalltear can't erase existence. Shalltear can't BFR.

Tabula said it himself in canon. Tabula said he'd leave otherwise. That's why. As well, Ainz does state pretty bluntly that he was pretty good friends with a good majority of his guild, if not all.
 
In Volume 10's Intermission, the Theocracy Cardinals say that Downfall Of Castle and Country probably wouldn't work on PDL because of his Wild Magic. Might be just because his Wild Magic is top tier, and equal to WCIs, like Cure Elim's, but there also seemed to be some implication that Wild Magic and WCIs just negate each other. Hard to say at this point, really, so I'll just stay neutral;
 
Not shalltear, cure elm when he was tricking cure elm into thinking he was weaker than he actually was. ainz unequipped all his gear and put on lesser gear from corpus of the abyss.

The only thing ainz kept on was a ring, his argument is ainz would have kept the wci on if it granted passive resistances....Again I can't figure out lance's logic here is as ainz removed all his good resistance gear to trick cure...
 
I assume they'd have some experience trying to control Dragons to be talking like that. They seemed pretty sure they could control Catastrophe Dragon Lord.
 
Does the catastrophe dragon lord use wild magic? Cause if he does than lance entire point about wild magic granting resistance to world class items fall apart.
 
Oh, sorry, Cure Elm. For that, it would depend. Ainz usually doesn't assume people have World Item effects, honestly- Ainz likely decided that the cost of unlikely-to-be-useful resistances was lower than the reward of being underestimated.

All of these things really point towards resistances. InfiniteSped affirms this that Wild Magic can also grand resistances, though this is speculation based off of a "probably". But when you combine all of this together?

I would like to see an argument why these resistances shouldn't be passed.
 
The pen or the sword said:
Does the catastrophe dragon lord use wild magic? Cause if he does than lance entire point about wild magic granting resistance to world class items fall apart.
Click to expand...
Not mentioned at any point, I think.
 
LSirLancelotDuLacl said:
Something to clear out first:
  • In Yggdrassil, you can build resistances to basically everything in the game short of the effects of World Items. There are skills that can bypass this but that isn't important.
  • Ainz specifies that no matter what, you are gonna have some blind spot since you can't cover every resistance. This also means the resistances to the various kinds of damage, but those don't matter as even with a World Item you can get hurt. Also, the one that says this is Ainz, an undead that comes with a really big list of innate resistances just from his racial skills, and that has higher quality armor than is the norm.
Reasons why this is being considered as general resistance:

  • The World Item directly shows the capacity to block the effects of something that not only wasn't in Yggdrassil, the game Ainz and World Items come from, but that existed before even the first players came to the New World.
  • At no points is it ever said or shown that World Items don't resist the effects of normal Tier Magic, so arguing it has no bases.
Problems I have with this:

  • Wild Magic has a special property that it shares with World Items and that nothing else, not the items or spells of Yggdrassil or the martial arts and talents of the New World, have - if you have Wild Magic, you automatically resist all Wild Magic. This seems to be the case no matter the effect, even though the EE Ray that Ainz resisted was said to be among the 5 worst, more powerful Wild Magic spells so most of them obviously scale below. Likewise, no matter the "power" difference you resist a WCI if you have a WCI. The seeming disconnection of the two seems to falter considering this rather unique common trait.
  • Ainz is a very methodical individual, it can be seen in his battle with Cure (the dragon that makes the EE Ray), considering pros and cons and alternatives as much as he can. He decides to sneak close to Cure to gather information, using subpar gear to disguise himself and weakening himself in the process, not to mention riddling his resistances full of holes. Yet if this was accepted, the WCI should give him resistances to everything but damage, yet he didn't even consider it for a moment. Not even the slightest comment as he realizes Cure may have a stronger ability to control Undead and keeps his Turn Undead Resistance on in case it tries to control Ainz.
  • Connected to the above, I am sure you can imagine how big of a deal it would be to cover all your non-damage related resistances with a single item, yet Ainz never makes the slightest mention of it resisting tiered spells ever. Not even a "it would be risky as people would know you have one, but it would make for a powerful combo" comment, literally nothing in 13 novels.
  • Ainz prepares himself with every item he thinks is best for facing dragons and undead, uses a cash item he only has 2 copies of, and generally pulls every advantage he has out for the fight with Cure. Despite this, he doesn't use or even think for a moment of using his World Item (the red orb in his chest) even when he mentioned in Volume 11 how it has many kinds of powers, one of them very effective against dragons. Ainz is pulling every resource he thinks he'll need and even recognizes Cure is a dangerous opponent, but he doesn't deem it necessary to use his World Item? That would make me think the resistance goes both ways, Ainz can't hurt Wild Magic Users with WCI. But at no point is Wild Magic said to resist anything but Wild Magic, so it remains nothing but a common trait between both shared by nothing else.
Click to expand...
Ill qoute sir lances argument he put together for dragoo and we can look it over.
 
A lot of his points are mere speculation into Ainz's psyche, which have been thoroughly debated and even debunked at points.

World Items can counter/are on par with other World Items in effect. World Items also allow resistance to Wild Magic. If something can deal with both sides of the spectrum, then I don't see why these resistances shouldn't be added, with the exception of BFR which still needs to be looked into.
 
Sir lance seems to believe there is a world class item for every effect even though world class item effects rarerly cross over into effects accomplishable with teired magic. He is trying to equate two systems of magic that come from different worlds, based on little to no evidence from the text.

He seems to beleive ainz would have mentione which as I mentioned above ainz rarly if ever goes into details about the effects of items, levels, abilities basically everything in the verse ainz loves to skim it over.

Lance seems to beleive ainz would have used the special ablitity agains cure but as Ive stated before why bother using it when it was never needed in the fight?

His whole argument relies on us equalizing two forms of magic from different worlds and saying they are the same.
 
There is not a World Class Item for every effect. If he wishes to affirm it, he has to prove it.

Equating two polar opposites in system?

Lance also has to prove how Ainz would mention this, as Ainz just about never does.

It wasn't needed; Ainz could if simply whipped out a dozen World Items against Shalltear, but he didn't have to. Same against Cure.

Equalizing complete and utter opposites? The pinnacle of tiered magic, and the predecessor to tiered magic?
 
Thats his stance, I didn't write it! :p

Ive mentioned multiple times there were only two hundred of these items in a game with hundreds of thousands of players. the odds of a player ever coming across one of these items is incredibly rare and only the top guilds ever had more than a couple. its not like theres a world class item that directly does any form of damage, Albedos wci has an ablity focused on terrain destruction. another collects exp, another lets you make a wish. These aren't exactly common effects!

edit wait so if the catastorphy dragon lord does have wild magic it will prove wild magic doesn't offer any resistances to world class items, conversly if the catastrophy dragon lord doesn't use wild magic it wont prove anything either way....
 
InfiniteSped
"In Volume 10's Intermission, the Theocracy Cardinals say that Downfall Of Castle and Country probably wouldn't work on PDL because of his Wild Magic. Might be just because his Wild Magic is top tier, and equal to WCIs, like Cure Elim's, but there also seemed to be some implication that Wild Magic and WCIs just negate each other. Hard to say at this point, really, so I'll just stay neutral"

Its speculation from the Cardinals due to never using the WCI on PDL. Its a shaky argument at best if one were to use it (I know you already claim to be neutral on it), plus it contradict itself due to mentioning the possiblity of it working on Catastrophe Dragon Lord. Supposedly Dragon Lords can learn Tier Magic at the cost of losing Wild Magic through various methods, which shows the Dragon Lords weren't immune to the WCI itme that implemented Tier Magic. Otherwise its 'virtually impossible' for Dragon Lords to learn Tier Magic, so logically Catastrophe Dragon Lord should have access to Wild Magic. We also still have the example of Ainz WCI failing to make him immune to Cure's anti-teleportation Wild Magic spell.

Plus we do not know any of PDL Wild Magic spells. Perhaps one of his spells forma a shield from the souls he uses, which the WCI could classify as a 'target' rather than PDL himself, this is delving into speculative territory which is why using this example is not good. Or it could be like you say, his Wild Magic spell being equal to WCIs and thus allows him to counter Downfall of Castle & Country, which would support the general resistance.

The Pen or Sword

"The only argument is we haven't seem them interact with teired magic"

But technically we have? We saw a WCI effect negating the spell Wish, which is a super tier spell and basically the Tier Magic equivalent to the WCI Ouroboros. Its been explicitly mentioned the only thing that can counter or bypass the effects of a WCI is another WCI, so we have two examples of WCI negating effects similar to ither WCI from two different magic sources.
 
I know Its not my argument! Im just repeating what sir lance has said, Im all for general resistances! Ive been here from the start arguing in there favor. As assuming general resistances is the simplest way to interpret them.

Edit assuming anything else require huge amounts of speculation and assumptions that aren't supported by the text.
 
Dragon Lords don't necessarily all use wild magic though, the one Ainz killed in Vol 10 was technically a Dragon Lord, and he didn't have wild magic. Catastrophe doesn't really need to have it.
 
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