Overlord additions (Overlord Bonus Volume)

[The_pen_or_the_sword]

Ehh you don't need to read all of it several times our arguments circled each other. Side note you profile pic is deeply distubring...

Edit, I suppose my nightmares were getting a bit bland

extra edit: I have gazed into the abyss and it has gazed back.....

 

[Yobo_Blue]

Ehh you don't need to read all of it several times our arguments circled each other. Side note you profile pic is deeply distubring...

I consider myself a connoisseur in the art of profile pics.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

Hatsune Miku wants to see you on a dark night

 

[Yobo_Blue]

Anyway, I think it's fair too say that assuming WCI grant resistances since assuming that they work any other way requires more assumptions than just going with what we're explicitly given in this case.

 

[Moritzva]

Jeez, this is a long thread.

Okay, may I ask:

In short terms, what changes have been thoroughly debunked, what are agreed upon by the majority, and what are in contention?

 

[The_pen_or_the_sword]

The only point of contention is we have only seen wci resist world class items and wild magic. They have never had an interaction with teired magic, sir lance beleives we should assume wild magic and world class items function on similar principles and thats why ainz could resist ee

The majority beleives that wci simply give a base resistance to the actual effects of world class items. Thats why ainz could resist cure's ee as he was already resistant to the ee from longuis.

Basically nothing was resolved as both sides are making an assumption but sir lance's assumption means we have to give false equvlance between wrold class items and wild magic. There is no basis in text for this, his argument requires us to make far more assumptions than assuming a base resistance does.

 

[The_pen_or_the_sword]

Dragoo fraust is trying to hear other people's stance as he feels both I and sir lance have solid points.

 

[Moritzva]

I'm still inclined to say they have base resistances to the effects of most world class items, with the exception of BFR (Before adding that, I would like to see if Ainz had his staff or not during that incident, since I remember Ainz and his guild in Yggdrasil being BFR'd by it).

Not only is it intuitive based on what we know about Overlord resistances, but Ainz just blatantly lolnope'd an effect from a source similar in strength.

Considering this is Overlord we are talking about, this is the best we're getting.

 

[The_pen_or_the_sword]

We can go over the exact resistances after we reach a consensus on if we add them as general resistances which seems to be the direction everyone but sir lance has leaned....

 

[Moritzva]

Let's make a list of all the World Class item effects. He obviously resists EE and doesn't resist BFR (possibly), what else?

 

[Elizhaa]

If there is no specific list of the resistances and its related effects for WCI , than I am in the same agreements with @Dargoo Faust

 

[The_pen_or_the_sword]

ainz and all gaurdians equiped with world class items gain resistance to the following:

reality warping due to resisting ourobouros, sealing due to resisting depictions of mountain and river, all gaurdians gain mind controls resistance, soul manip as well as part of cures existence erasure involved ripping out the soul.

Eliahza but there is a list of resistances based on other world class item effects, dragoo stance is both our arguments have good points.

Sir lance idea requires us equating wci to wild magic where saying they instead give general resistance requires far less assumptions

 

[The_pen_or_the_sword]

Elizhaa for context there are three forms of magic in the world, world class items, teired magic, and wild magic. world class items offer reistances to the effects of other world class items. We beleive this is a base resistance as when wild magic was used that had the same effect as another world class item it was resisted. Despite wild magic being foreign to world class items and yggdrasil magic.

 

[Moritzva]

Could we format it like this;

Item 1 (Resistance): Approved/Denied/Under Debate

Item 2 (Resistance): Approved/Denied/Under Debate

It would help a lot with communication imo.

Regardless, what is the argument against World Item resistances outside of BFR?

 

[InfiniteSped]

Why would BFR be an exception?

 

[The_pen_or_the_sword]

The only argument is we haven't seen wci resistances interact with regular teired magic in the series. Thats it. Again that feels like info we can go over after we get them approved for general resistances.

Note listing all under debate for first posting

Item one orobourous (Reality warping/sealing) Under debate.

More powerful version of wish upon a star allowed in ygddrasil for one to make a request of the devs to change there game in new world allows reality to warp. Holding a world class item protects from this warping. Used to seal world off from ainz and co who were using a mine. Only members not holding a world class item were thrown out but most holders died several times over as only ten guildmates could try and retake the world at once.

Item two, Depiction of mountains and rivers (sealing) under debate

Shall tear had to actively step through into the pocket dimension created by the item. Ainz explained if one was caught in its radius but had a world class item they would not be pulled in but instead would find themselves outside the effect.

Item 3 Longuis (existence erasure) under debate

Item that deletes both the person struck with it and the person weilding it, coffin dragon lords breath mirrioed this ability without any of it's drawbacks. Ainz resisted it so not much of a debate...

Item 4 Five Elements Overcoming (Reality warping) under debate.

Item that allows for one to change the entire magic system, used to drag yggdrasil magic system to new world. Having world class item would allow one to maintain ther magical power regardless of change

Item 5 Downfall of castle and country (mind control) Under debate.

Allow user to mindcontrol creatures immune to mind control. Holding wci grants resistance to this effect.

 

[Moritzva]

Why would BFR be an exception?

I believe Ainz and his guild got hit by the BFR world item before, and it worked. So we'd have to research a bit into that.

So, the main argument is that having a World Item such as the Staff of Ainz Ooal Gown allows for resistance from effects of similar power?

 

[The_pen_or_the_sword]

The staff isn't a wci the main argument is we have only seen world class items offer resistance to the effects of other world class items, but in this latest volume we also see them offer resistance to a wild magic effect that mirrior longuis leading many to beleive it is a flat resistance as wild magic isn't native to yggdrasil.

So basically the argument is over whether or not it would offer resistances to teired magic but we have never seen anything to support or deny this in the text. What we do know is the resistances offered by world class items are effective against two of the three forms of magic in new world.

Edit: The world class item ainz has is in his chest, we can't list any abilities from it as we don't know what kind of active effect it has. We know it offers the resistance that all othe world class items offer.

 

[Moritzva]

Well, I think that makes sense. If World Items canonically resist each-other, but in the New World they ALSO resist Wild Magic, then that overall makes sense.

 

[The_pen_or_the_sword]

They offer resistance to eachothers effects we originally assumed that the resistances would only work on other world class items but with the showing of wild magic being effected we now suspect it is simply a flat resistance rather than a specific one.

 

[FDrybob]

I agree with SirLancelot's conclusion that tiered magic and wild magic have a connection to each other, but I do not agree that this means that World Items and wild magic are connected. In the game YGGDRASIL, world items are the remnants of many of the realms of Yggdrasil after they were ripped from the world tree by the World Eater, a giant dragon that served as the final boss of the main campaign. There is nothing that suggest that world items are connected to tiered magic, other than the fact that some of them can indirectly affect it (like Five Elements Overcoming).

It is unknown how world items got into the New World, but the only connection between them and wild magic is that they resist each other. Other than that, they have no connection. Tiered magic definitely had an effect on wild magic when it was introduced to the New World, but world items did not have any visible effect.

 

[DeathNoodles]

Overlord, one of the few series where arguments for the characters stems from how obscure their feats are.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Altogether my points remain the same, and I don't mind the resistances are accepted but I am of the same mind as I was before. World Items are stronger than tiered magic, so between the tiered magic of the world item working, it's gonna be the world item.

On the other hand it doesn't matter if a world item is objectively superior for a task than another, it still gets resisted. It doesn't matter if Cure's Soulbreath is only comparable to 5 other Wild Magic Spells, even a weak Wild Magic User resists from what we do know. So again, a trait they both share while nothing else does, and it outlines even better that the way World Items interact with tiered magic or magical items is not even similar to how it interacts with Wild Magic. WCI is just immensely above anything else, it overpowers more than it resists, yet it's obviously not above Wild Magic if Soul Breath is compares to one of the twenty yet it resists. I can't agree with this being a general resistance, what World Items do is pretty much how we assume Hax works in here in general, except with Wild Magic.

Anything else I say about Ainz and his actions is just supporting evidence for me due to context, what we know about him and the way he delivers information and the way he acts. It's nothing conclusive, it's just an interpretation that I think takes less assumptions to take when you compile all the info we have.

 

[The_pen_or_the_sword]

Except it requires far more assumptions than the other interpretation does, as in your case we assume an equvlance between world class items and wild magic. In the other scenario no such assumption is made, all we do in our interpetation is turn them over to flat resistances.

Yet we have both stated our peices and at this point its not up to us to decide.

edit Fryboy do you think we should switch them to flat resistance.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

I feel it requires more assumptions because we'd assume it just works on tier Magic, when it never did and the only thing that happened is a WCI effect, which are stronger than anything else, disregarded Ainz Wish. We would also have to assume the reason why Ainz didn't use his WCI on the fight when it doesn't disappear after use, or assume why he didn't mention it among the options he could fall on if his plan with Cure want wrong, or assume why risk death which when he could cover his resistances with it despite later showing he felt safe enough just hiding his items and thought it would be enough to fool Cure, or assume why these resistances have never been mentioned in 13 volumes when he was pretty okay mentioning information like how people hid their World Items not wanting to let anyone know, or, etc,...

 

[Yobo_Blue]

Wasn't it already said discussing assumptions isn't going to get us anywhere at this point?

 

[The_pen_or_the_sword]

Thats ainz characteriazation in thirteen volumes we hear about several things onece or never. Ainz not sharing info is nothing new.

With our interperatation we don't persume to understand world class items or wild magic. Yoursaying we have to make assumptions about ainz thoughts and actions when thats not true. Ainz is terrible at explaining anything, perhaps his worldclass item was one time use, perhaps he simply didn't feel the need to use it.

Our theory doesn't persume to know what ainz is thinking because we never have a clear picture of what ainz himself is thinking. We hear about several things once and never again. Ainz not explaining secondary resistances granted by world class items seems perfectly in chacter with him mentioning one thing about his world class item and never hearing about it again. Or hearing how rubedo was incredibly dangerous and never getting any concrete info on her,

Yobo is correct I feel we should avoid repeating ourselves yet again. Yobo tell me has lance convinced you? has anyone been convinced by lance at this point

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

I am just saying why I think my interpretation goes along more with Occam's Razor. Still, I laid my points.

Also Yobo, what in the heck is that profile?

 

[Yobo_Blue]

I am just saying why I think my interpretation goes along more with Occam's Razor. Still, I laid my points.
Also Yobo, what in the heck is that profile? </div>

You should have sen the other two

 

[The_pen_or_the_sword]

DONT ASK OR YOU WILL BE PULLED INTO THE ABYSS!

Edit apologies, Yobo sent me to the abyss with the last profile pic....

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

It's best we calm down, this is too long already.

 

[InfiniteSped]

So, everyone is fine with just adding those new spells and the Staff's automatic attacks, then?

 

[The_pen_or_the_sword]

Eh no at the moment dragoo is still thinking over general resistances and getting the consnesus/thoughts from others. Those additions are absolute regardless of the general resistances though. So tell me do you still stand by general resistances?

PS check out my edit on the genral discussion thread Im interested in you thoughts.

 

[InfiniteSped]

I'm personally fine with the WCI resistances, but it seems debatable enough that we probably shouldn't use it.

 

[The_pen_or_the_sword]

I disagree for all my above stated reasons, we would need to assume eqivlance between world class items and wild magic. Assuming general resistances requires far less in the way of assuming mechanics between two different forms of magic.

 

[InfiniteSped]

I agree, but this debate has been going on for too long, so I don't think it'll get anywhere. We might get some more context if Ainz faces the WCI user from the Slane Theocracy.

 

[The_pen_or_the_sword]

At this point its going to come down to dragoos choice.

edit, so you think they should apply but your tired of this debate and feel it wont go anywhere. Perfectly understandable.

 

[InfiniteSped]

I think it's best to just add the accepted things and drop the resistances for now.

 

[The_pen_or_the_sword]

Ill fight for it until dragoo makes the final descion but I understand your stance.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Agreed. Also the weakness to Evileye as Keno is pretty much her, at least Talent wise until the opposite is proven.