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Overlord additions (Overlord Bonus Volume)

But we also don't know if the Catastrophy dragon lord doesn't use wild magic, even if he doesn't it wont confirm wild magic offering resistances all it will show is the catastrophe dragon lord couldn't resist.

Edit another way to confirm would be if the slaine theocracy said there was absolutly no chance of downfall of country working but instead they said it was unlikely. To me the text implies they are unwilling to test it.
 
Actually Im sure of it now, they won't attempt to use it on the platinum dragon lord for the same reason they won't try it on ainz. theres no garentee it will work and if it fails there country will die, its not worth the risk.

Edit The slaine theocracy has no way of knowing ainz has a world class item, yet they are unwilling to attempt mind control on him. This is clear proof when an enemy is powerful enough the slaine theocracy wont risk attempting to mind control. The catstrophy dragon lord as powerful as he is already died once, meaning if they fail to control him they can kill him again. No such garentee exist for ainz or pdl
 
"The power of the gods, Downfall of Castle and Country, will probably not work on that fellow who can use wild magic, unlike with the Catastrophe Dragon Lord."

Pretty clear that they believe that wild magic means it wouldn't work, seems to me that Catastrophe can't use it in the first place.

They say they aren't gonna try against PDL because of Wild Magic, but against Ainz it's only because it's too dangerous, and they don't know what his subordinates can do.

How about using it on the Sorcerer King?"
Silence descended over the meeting room. It was a proposal that they were thinking, but could not speak.
"...It's not a bad idea, but the fact that we don't know what sort of power the Sorcerer King's subordinates possess makes me uneasy." [...]

"Then, back to the topic. We are all against using Downfall of Castle and Country on the Sorcerer King?"
"It's too dangerous."
 
And again probably thats not a sound foundation to base this assumption on. As it implies they have never tested it and are unwilling to test it. The same way they aren't willing to test it on the sorcerer king...
 
Oh, I had forgotten that quote.

Indeed doesn't prove anything, but I'd say it makes for a more convincing addition to my arguments.

Also bone, you are confusing resisting with overpowering. The hax from World Items is the most powerful thing ever from Yggdrassil. The mind hax it's more powerful than Shalltear's immunity and Ainz's wish, and Ainz used his wish to get rid of the mind hax. If he were to try and, I don't know, warp Shalltear and it didn't work you'd have more of a base, but Ainz tried to directly interfere with the World Item's power and was repelled because Wish isn't as strong as a world item. Its pretty simple. Otherwise, we'd be saying just getting mind haxed by Downfall of City and Country means Shalltear would have all of the other associated resistances, and I don't think she's resisting Soulbreath because of that.
 
No but she's definitly resisting it as she holds a world class item

except as several people have pointed out your argument requires far to much in the way of assumptions. General resistances adhere to occams razor and doesn't require us to assume that world class items and wild magic is eqivlant. Ill qoute some of the above statments
 
ThePixelKirby wrote:
A lot of his points are mere speculation into Ainz's psyche, which have been thoroughly debated and even debunked at points.

World Items can counter/are on par with other World Items in effect. World Items also allow resistance to Wild Magic. If something can deal with both sides of the spectrum, then I don't see why these resistances shouldn't be added, with the exception of BFR which still needs to be looked into. ThePixelKirby wrote:

There is not a World Class Item for every effect. If he wishes to affirm it, he has to prove it.

Equating two polar opposites in system?

Lance also has to prove how Ainz would mention this, as Ainz just about never does.

It wasn't needed; Ainz could if simply whipped out a dozen World Items against Shalltear, but he didn't have to. Same against Cure.

Equalizing complete and utter opposites? The pinnacle of tiered magic, and the predecessor to tiered magic?

BonesDowery wrote:

And I don't know why thats even an argument. Its base on multiple assumptions thats based on zero indication from the novels besides personal interpretation of small pieces of text. In order for Wild Magic to be too similar to WCI we need to prove these points.

1. Wild Magic makes one immune to other Wild Magic (again no actual evidence or even indication of this in the novels).

2. A WCI makes one immune to all Wild Magic and vice versa, despite this being false as Ainz WCI didn't cancel out the anti-teleportation Wild Magic spell and Drsgon Lords are still capable of learning Tier Magic (at the cost of losing Wild Magic) which shows that Dragon Lords were still subject to the WCI that implemented Tier Magic into the NW.

3. Wild Magic can pierce ALL resistances just like a WCI, however this is false as how would ANY Dragon Lord lose a NPC/Player without a WCI. PDL himself admitted that he probably couldn't defeat an unequipped Shalltear which would make absolute no sense if his spells can pierce all of her resistances.

4. Making assumptions base on Ainz behavior with his WCI and the WCI itself. Which shouldn't even be used as the author himself admitted to omitting parts of the fight.

The only thing similar between Wild Magic and WCI is that WCI cancels out Wild Magic (only specific Wild Magic was canceled). We do not know the reason for this, for all we know it could because the WCI is actually absolute in both worlds.

I don't know why there's even any contention, WCI already counters both Tier and Wild magic (Wish is just a super tier spell), two different magic sources. This should be enough to support general resistance to specific effects or at the very least EE resistance. This is no different than Chakra countering mind control in Naruto (the same mind control that specifically targets the Chakra within the brain system), a energy source showing to only be able to counter the exact energy source, yet its still allow as general mind control resistance. (Sorry for keep using Naruto as an example, my mind has failed me in thinking of a better example)

Besides Wild Magic is technically the natural universal magic within the New World before Tier Magic was forced into the world, so by energy equivalency rules shouldn't counterimg Wild Magic be enough to give general resistance?

Hope I didn't come out as harsh for those in the opposition side.
 
... Pen, I was responding to Bone speaking of Shalltear resisting Wish while she was mind haxed. She didn't resist, Wish just didn't work because it's weaker than the mind hax is my point. And thinking of it any other way would imply someone affected by a World Item is immune to world items even without one of their own, which is silly at best.

I do believe we already pushed aside the issue of assumptions, we are all using assumptions. I am not even assuming, I posted credible reasons why what I am postulating makes sense. Saying they don't wanna try against PDL because it's dangerous IS a pretty massive assumption when they don't mind trying on Ainz but are more scared about his subordinates which won't be affected, and the main reason they don't think it'll work with PDL is Wild Magic.

Seriously, at this point I am mostly seeing assumptions without actual fundaments from every argument trying to explain away the decisions and actions that I keep saying clash with the idea that WCI give general resistances. Do you all realize the only reason it was added to the OP was the one scene of Ainz resisting the Soulbreath versus all I've brought up? It just feels like people don't wanna agree at this point instead.
 
LSirLancelotDuLacl said:
... Pen, I was responding to Bone speaking of Shalltear resisting Wish while she was mind haxed. She didn't resist, Wish just didn't work because it's weaker than the mind hax is my point. And thinking of it any other way would imply someone affected by a World Item is immune to world items even without one of their own, which is silly at best.
Click to expand...
Obviously we can't prove it yet, but it could also just be Super Tier Magic which uses an effect can't overcome WCI influence in any way
 
No we just find your reasoning supremely lacking and requireing more in the way of assumptions than the general resistances does. As we said ainz fails to mention and use things all the time. Its kinda his character.

You call them credible we all disagree as it requires to many assumptions. the burden of proof falls on you, provide evidence from the text that truely shows these two fundementally different systems of magic (one functioning off souls, the other on Lazy developers) One coming from ygdrassil and one from new world are equivlant. Show that world class items have failed to protect someone from lesser magic effects in the past. We have evidence of wci resisting something other than wci, and have no reason to think there resistances are only applicable to wci and wild magic.

Youve brought up snippets of text that don't truely support you point in more than the general sense we have an entire scene and fighting backing our reasoning.

You addressed the shalltear part and ignored the rest. With general resistances we don't claim to understand the power of world class items and wild magic. We don't claim they share some property with one another. The only thing we do is take the resistances that originally only applied to other world class items and make them general. No further assumption is needed.
 
Maybe one day we'll get exact answers, but considering Maruyama's stance with explaining things, I find myself doubtful
 
And that's the main problem, 'debunked'. I've seen no debunking besides differing interpretations of Ainz's mentality without any pertinent proof to back this up. You are even twisting my point about a World Item for every effect which has never had anything to do with anything of what I've said at ANY point and it's absurd. Like, have any of you actually read my points? Do I need to have to say it 10 times to make it clear? WCI doesn't care about the particular effect, WCI simply cares that a WCI is the source of the effect. Which is the exact same with Wild Magic, we have no reason to assume it "resists" specific effects, it just resists as long as it comes from Wild Magic.

I actually realized why it has been so stressful to argue this, because I am saying A and you are all saying B, so B is wrong and my proposal is wrong by consequence. Bone brought up how I know Wild Magic stops Wild Magic, when Cure is the one to say "Wild Magic..." hatefully when thinking how did Ainz survive. Honestly, I am actually done this time. I am not gonna argue this more, and I really don't care about the resistances. You can all decide what you want.
 
We've brought up ainz lack of consistincy his and the authors willingness to not give pertinent infromation. Ainz willinginess to not act rationally. I reposted your points and we pointed all the flaws inherient in them. You presume that wild magic and world class items are eqivlant when that has not been shown in the text.

See right there, it does imply that wild magic can resist wild magic but what did cure elm mean? Does all wild magic deny all other wild magic? How did dragons fight than? If they couldn't effect eachother, Was he perhaps refering to a specific ablitiy within wild magic. WE DONT KNOW!

World class items care about the effect of other world class items, that is all we are sure of currently. We now have proof these resistances aren't specific to other world class items but instead can resist the same effects from other sources thus we assume they grant general resistances.

Your argument lacks cohesion requires many assumptions about the nature of wild magic and world class items and the interactions between them. The other interpetation adheres to occams razor and requires less in the way of assumptions.

Its frustrating because neither of our arguments are 100 percent supported by the text, theres much room for wiggle room. Yet one of our arguments require less assumptions
 
With everything that's been argued, I can see both points, but this seems to come down to how you interpret the info
 
And that's the thing, I don't see less assumptions going by your argument. Occam's Razors make no sense only for the number of assumptions if the assumptions are made on information that make sense.

And no, I am sorry, but I am lacking cohesion on nothing. I covered up the reason of the assumptions with reasoning from the novels. The only thing I am seeing against my points is "too many assumptions".
 
And thats my stance on your entire argument so I guess its a stalemate

Edit: The only assumption my side makes is that the resistances we knew about between world class items apply as general, thats the entire assumption. I don't presume to understand the interactions between world class items and wild magic. I don't claim any form of equivlance between the two fundementally different sources of magic.
 
Hell, for all we know it could be based on power:

What did those World Class Items represent? They were equivalent to those other leaves — in other words, a single World Class Item represented a world. Thus, the basic design principle of World Class Items was that they possessed enormous power, and indeed, many World Class Items were extremely powerful.

He returned the staff into his inventory and took out the World-Class Item he usually equipped and put it on. Now, he had the protection of the world.

Maybe the reason only they resist each other is that they each have the power of a world, or 5-B using our terms.

Again, too many things to consider
 
LSirLancelotDuLacl said:
And that's the main problem, 'debunked'. I've seen no debunking besides differing interpretations of Ainz's mentality without any pertinent proof to back this up. You are even twisting my point about a World Item for every effect which has never had anything to do with anything of what I've said at ANY point and it's absurd. Like, have any of you actually read my points? Do I need to have to say it 10 times to make it clear? WCI doesn't care about the particular effect, WCI simply cares that a WCI is the source of the effect. Which is the exact same with Wild Magic, we have no reason to assume it "resists" specific effects, it just resists as long as it comes from Wild Magic.
I actually realized why it has been so stressful to argue this, because I am saying A and you are all saying B, so B is wrong and my proposal is wrong by consequence. Bone brought up how I know Wild Magic stops Wild Magic, when Cure is the one to say "Wild Magic..." hatefully when thinking how did Ainz survive. Honestly, I am actually done this time. I am not gonna argue this more, and I really don't care about the resistances. You can all decide what you want.
Click to expand...
Actually, plenty of the above arguments have used facts about Ainz's character, while on the other hand, your assumptions about what he would and would not do in battle have little to no backing besides assumptions.

You're saying the resistances only apply against WCIs. Why? Because you assume their resistances are only to eachother? Even though items on the level of World Class Items, such as the Staff of Ainz Ooal Gown, can boost racial skills that grant resistances/immunities?*

Overall, it seems like one hell of an assumption to assume something like that with little backing it up.

  • I'm not implying they are immunities, but 'immunity' is tossed around a lot in Overlord.
 
Ngl, not sure I agree with general resistances anymore, and by that I mean giving Ainz a resistance to every effect shown on WCI

However, I do still lean towards giving him resistances to EE and Soul manip due to Soulbreaker Breath
 
Why would he only gain those resistances though? If he gains a general resistance to those effects why wouldn't he gain the same for other effects? Thinking about it we know of only four world class items with teired counter parts, the divination blocking item, the divination peircing item, mind control item, and the reality warping item. The rest are esoteric and strange enough that its doubtful any of them truly have teired equivlants
 
Of course, I haven't used facts about Ainz like how meticulous he is, his general paranoia and preparation for every detail like having counter plans ready in case Cure could stay alive longer or covering his jewels, examples of his thought process like feeling that covering his jewels would be enough to discredit ideas like "he would be afraid to reveal his WCI", or not consideration of alternatives despite all his deliberation of giving the WCI to the Guardians after the Shalltear incident. It feels rather dishonest how you say that, Kirby.

You didn't even read any of my points right and reveal it quite clearly, as I said the resistance offered by the WCI doesn't care about the effect, only about another WCI being the source of it. I don't even understand what your point about The Guild Weapon has to do with this.
 
And we pointed out all the times that ainz paranoia and thought processes failed him, all the times he doesn't mention pertinent information until its nesccary and sometimes not even than.

We don't know that they don't care about the effect, that is your assumption. We know for a fact world class items resist the effects of other world class items anything else is an assumption. To be fair that was our original assumption we now have new information that directly contradicts that assumption in the form of it resisting magic not from yggdrasil.

We point out in his fight against shall tear he leaves behind the other world class items even if they could have helped him win.
 
Oh? I must have missed that since I don't see it anywhere.

So its my assumption that the novel explicitly says you can't resist a world item without another world item, and that at no point it has been shown "resisting" anything else? I feel the word assumption is just being thrown around at this point.
 
>Take the words exactly as they were in your post.

>"You didn't read any of my points right".

If people 'keep on getting your points wrong', then perhaps it's your fault for not explaining them clearly.
 
No it is stated world class items resist other world class items. We now beleive this means they resist the effects of other world class items.

Ainz fight with shalltear, he takes off his ring of self ressurection, he doesn't equip the other world class items despite knowing shalltear is built to hard counter his build.

He decides not to wear his high resistance gear despite going against an enemy that can one shot kill him.
 
> I mention my idea of resistance coming due to the source of the effect, not what the effect is, hence not being a general resistance.

> People start talking about me assuming there must be World Items that do things like Tier spells.

No, I am fairly sure whatever I said was just interpreted to taste.
 
We have stated multiple times he resisted an effect from a different source thus your argument isn't valid.

Look this feels pointless Im going to bother dragoo and let him decide. I disagree with you lance and I don't think we could ever agree on this matter.
 
LSirLancelotDuLacl said:
> I mention my idea of resistance coming due to the source of the effect, not what the effect is, hence not being a general resistance.
> People start talking about me assuming there must be World Items that do things like Tier spells.

No, I am fairly sure whatever I said was just interpreted to taste.
Click to expand...
I don't even know where you got the second part from?

Look, the 'That's not what I'm talking about, you are wrong' tactic is really coming into play here, and it's only diversionary.
 
We literally see it resist the same effect from a different source....

Edit the problem is your argument isn't world class items only resist world class items as that was shown in the novel to be false. Its your assertion wci are the same as wild magic.

You at one point stated that ainz would have resistances to things like turn undead or elemental damage if he got general resistances. We all pointed out the flaws of that reasoning quite some time ago.
 
Yea, we literally see World Class Items resist another source, and I've already debunked why Wild Magic and World Class Items are by no means the same thing.
 
I would assume so, it should of been added already due to a past CRT.

So yes, it would include Soul Manip.
 
Just thought Id throw out other times ainz failed to mention things, Ainz tells us about his world class item and the defensive buff. Volume one. Ainz tells us this item has numerous effects including one especially useful against dragons. Volume eleven. This is the total amount of info we have on this amazing item.

Also Ainz I have double digits of these super rare powerful artifacts, I wont tell you what any of them do until volume nine!

Yes ainz would gain soul manip and a slew of other resistances with this crt.

Edit point being ainz and the author are dicks about what information they give us.
 
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