Apeironaxim
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You would just put Soul Manip Resistance and then specify what type of soul manip he resisted I think
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Overlord additions (Overlord Bonus Volume)
- Thread starter InfiniteSped
- Start date
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Fair enough, soul destruction resist is a bit redudant as all the gaurdians have this based on there abilitiy to resist soul destroying attacks like hell flame. sigh
"existenc erasure resistance, reality warping resistance, bfr resistance,, soul manipulation resistance, mind manipulation resistance, and sealing resistance
"existenc erasure resistance, reality warping resistance, bfr resistance,, soul manipulation resistance, mind manipulation resistance, and sealing resistance
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So dragoo are you on board with these resistance additions?
Apeironaxim
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Just want to make sure: Was Cure's EE also going to erase Ainz's soul, or was the soul thing a different attack?
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It was both going to erase ainz from existence and destroy his soul if memory serves correctly.
Apeironaxim
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has the relevant text been posted at all?
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Got it
It was a Wild Magic spell considered to be on par with the World-Class item Longinus. It was an irresistible power that would discorporate the soul of anything it touched.
Longius is existence erasure while the destruction of the soul is also mentioned thus we get the twofold resistance. Its impossible for the longinus to be a mistranslation due to it appearing in the original text as well.
It was a Wild Magic spell considered to be on par with the World-Class item Longinus. It was an irresistible power that would discorporate the soul of anything it touched.
Longius is existence erasure while the destruction of the soul is also mentioned thus we get the twofold resistance. Its impossible for the longinus to be a mistranslation due to it appearing in the original text as well.
Apeironaxim
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discorporate
That's a word I've never seen before
That's a word I've never seen before
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From what I can tell it implies the soul being ripped out, removed from the body before both are erased. Though it seems like it might be an odd translation as the word doesn't quite fit...
Saying that regardless ainz still gets the above resistances as he resisted this effect using a world class item.
Saying that regardless ainz still gets the above resistances as he resisted this effect using a world class item.
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Is that an agreement with the above resistances? Do you actually agree with it?Dargoo Faust said:
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I'll give a general overview of the points why I still think the resistances don't apply at all.
The two main issues is the resistances being applicable at all because "Wild Magic is entirely unrelated to WCI and doesn't work like them" and "if it works like that, it works for resistances in general".
But I am not even in muy own phone so I will address my points later.
The two main issues is the resistances being applicable at all because "Wild Magic is entirely unrelated to WCI and doesn't work like them" and "if it works like that, it works for resistances in general".
But I am not even in muy own phone so I will address my points later.
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Mate your making the same point twelve times now nobody has agreed with you and as I said Im tired of arguing how about you copy and past your best argument from above, Ill do the same with my response and we'll let the two staff weigh in based on those.
Edit sorry I just don't want to have to remake the same response to the same point yet again...
Edit sorry I just don't want to have to remake the same response to the same point yet again...
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I agree with the additions.
All resistances FRA
All resistances FRA
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Everyone has agreed so far the only dertractor has been lance, we have had the same argument several times in this very thread, it has been very circular....
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Also Pen, I feel you really aren't understanding my points. If you wanna make WCI GENERAL resistances, it means it's gotta give resistance to the Yggdrassil spells. Is not one or the other because BOTH are magic so it either works for both or it works for only Wild Magic, meaning its not a general resistance that works no matter the source. Meaning, it's gotta work on things like Turn Undead, Paralysis, Mind Control, and all those non-damaging effects from normal Tier magic. And it should also work on Wild Magic piercing anti-scrying magic because... Because its still a Wild Magic effect, which the WCI should resist.
And no, Turn Undead refers to the Paladin spell. You can either hurt/destroy undead with it, or control them. Ainz was afraid of Cure using Turn on him because he controlled way more Undead than Ainz, so he was scared Cure could Turn him and control him. And no, Mind Effects Immunity obviously doesn't matter.
And no, Turn Undead refers to the Paladin spell. You can either hurt/destroy undead with it, or control them. Ainz was afraid of Cure using Turn on him because he controlled way more Undead than Ainz, so he was scared Cure could Turn him and control him. And no, Mind Effects Immunity obviously doesn't matter.
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World class items don't offer any of the resistances you just mentioned my whole point is they would offer protection from lower teir magic. As far as we know there are no turn undead wcl, or paraylisis wcl, theres one mind control one and we have no reason to suspect having a world class item wouldn't protect you from the effect of lower teir mind control. Theres nothing in the text, from any of the thirteen volumes that suggest otherwise. Again even in the defunct web novel nothing ever showed wcls not protecting against lesser teirs.
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Until we see a world class item holder effected by low teir mind control or existance erasure, or any other effect they should resist your argument has no legs to stand on.
Edit: PS. I have understood all your points I have furiously disagreed with them each time you brought them up
Edit: PS. I have understood all your points I have furiously disagreed with them each time you brought them up
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Everyone but sir lance feel we should add the following resistances based on the fact in the latest side story we saw a world class item offer resistance to wild magic existence erasure something that defies our original assumptions about how the resistances granted by world class items work. We've all come to the conclusion world class items offer broader resistances rather than canceling out only other wcl effects.
Basically based on our new understanding ainz and all gaurdians equiped with World class items now gain the following
"existenc erasure resistance, reality warping resistance, bfr resistance,, soul manipulation resistance, mind manipulation resistance, and sealing resistance
This is being assumed due to world class items offer defenses against world class items with these effects and as I just explained we've seen one of these resistances effecting a non world class item effect. Sir lance is trying to equate WCI with wild magic even though we have been shown wild magic functions completely differently to yggdrasil magic...
Basically based on our new understanding ainz and all gaurdians equiped with World class items now gain the following
"existenc erasure resistance, reality warping resistance, bfr resistance,, soul manipulation resistance, mind manipulation resistance, and sealing resistance
This is being assumed due to world class items offer defenses against world class items with these effects and as I just explained we've seen one of these resistances effecting a non world class item effect. Sir lance is trying to equate WCI with wild magic even though we have been shown wild magic functions completely differently to yggdrasil magic...
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Makes sense to me
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Like I said sir lance is the only one arguing against it and he has yet to convince anyone, We argued in a circle all throughout this thread. In all thirteen volumes even the non cannon webnovel we have seen nothing to disagree with this new interpetation.
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If someone can give me a list of quotes/scans to go through I can give a more proper piece on this.
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Ouch but fair...
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qoutes: Soulbreaker breathwas a Wild Magic spell considered to be on par with the World-Class item Longinus. It was an irresistible power that would discorporate the soul of anything it touched. This utterly malignant power consumed everything present.
However, part his mind was coolly contemplating the fact that defensive barriers were useless against a World-Class Item like Longinus. In fact, the black beam had easily pierced the barriers -- as though they were not there -- and swallowed up everything. The beam of darkness racing out at him had no obvious destructive power -- or pressure -- to it. Yet, it was a fatal blow.
It was impossible to avoid it that way. In that case, there was only one other way to stop that attack.The one who had polluted the world was still there. As though they were waiting for Cure Elim to realize that, the two walls vanished as though they had melted away into the air. The magic caster who had driven Cure Elim to its wit's end stood calmly in front of it. Beside it was a floating staff. While it had no reason to doubt its own senses, its opposition had not been hurt in any way. Walls like those could not stop the Soulbreaker Breath. That being the case, how had its opponent done this?Perhaps he had teleported out of its range while Cure Elim's line of sight had been obscured. The World-Warping Barrier it had opened with simply interfered with teleportation through it. Teleportation was possible as long as the start and end points were both inside the barrier. He could have simply teleported to the edge of the barrier and then walked right through the barrier itself.In that case, had he evaded the beam in that way? The answer was -- no. It was impossible to avoid it that way.
However, part his mind was coolly contemplating the fact that defensive barriers were useless against a World-Class Item like Longinus. In fact, the black beam had easily pierced the barriers -- as though they were not there -- and swallowed up everything. The beam of darkness racing out at him had no obvious destructive power -- or pressure -- to it. Yet, it was a fatal blow.
It was impossible to avoid it that way. In that case, there was only one other way to stop that attack.The one who had polluted the world was still there. As though they were waiting for Cure Elim to realize that, the two walls vanished as though they had melted away into the air. The magic caster who had driven Cure Elim to its wit's end stood calmly in front of it. Beside it was a floating staff. While it had no reason to doubt its own senses, its opposition had not been hurt in any way. Walls like those could not stop the Soulbreaker Breath. That being the case, how had its opponent done this?Perhaps he had teleported out of its range while Cure Elim's line of sight had been obscured. The World-Warping Barrier it had opened with simply interfered with teleportation through it. Teleportation was possible as long as the start and end points were both inside the barrier. He could have simply teleported to the edge of the barrier and then walked right through the barrier itself.In that case, had he evaded the beam in that way? The answer was -- no. It was impossible to avoid it that way.
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World-Class Item he usually equipped and put it on. Now, he had the protection of the world.
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Okay Im gonna try explaining one more time, originally we assumed world class items could only block the effects of other world class items. That they offered no defense agianst other magical items or abilities.
With the fight seen in the new side story ainz resist the effect of existince erasure, that he activly compares to longuis the profile deletion item. This effect though doesn't come from a world class item it comes from wild magic, a system totally foreign to yggdrasil. This means the world class items defensive buffs are not only effective against other world class items.
With the fight seen in the new side story ainz resist the effect of existince erasure, that he activly compares to longuis the profile deletion item. This effect though doesn't come from a world class item it comes from wild magic, a system totally foreign to yggdrasil. This means the world class items defensive buffs are not only effective against other world class items.
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My whole point is that for it to serve as a resistance, a resistance to anything that wasn't similar to a WCI, the WCI's would have to resist other stuff! Literally how do I have to explain this any more times?
If the WCI shows that it resists only specific stuff besides itself, then it isn't a general resistance. Do you actually possibly understand what I mean by general? As in, we can actually equalize it to defend from more broad things?
The issue with this is that WCI have only shown to defend from Wild Magic. But Wild Magic, despite being "unrelated" to the new world, behaves more like World Class Items than literally anything else. Not only is it the only thing equal in power if you have enough souls, it is the only other thing in Overlord that gives you resistance to itself if you have it. Nothing else has this quality, so the fact Wild Magic has nothing to do with Yggdrassil doesn't matter because WCI aren't resisting something different, they are resisting something very similar to itself. Maybe if it resisted the effects of something that wasn't Wild Magic, but then we would have already added these resistances since long ago. Because at no point, ever, in any of the novels is it said that World Class Items resist the effects of anything other than World Class Items, and it is never shown, and the only thing we are doing is ASSUMING that they would because otherwise it makes nonsense that it resists Wild Magic but doesn't resist Tiered Magic.
I am 99% sure by now that you really don't understand what's my point at all. I really don't think I can keep arguing this because you literally don't even understand what's my point.
If the WCI shows that it resists only specific stuff besides itself, then it isn't a general resistance. Do you actually possibly understand what I mean by general? As in, we can actually equalize it to defend from more broad things?
The issue with this is that WCI have only shown to defend from Wild Magic. But Wild Magic, despite being "unrelated" to the new world, behaves more like World Class Items than literally anything else. Not only is it the only thing equal in power if you have enough souls, it is the only other thing in Overlord that gives you resistance to itself if you have it. Nothing else has this quality, so the fact Wild Magic has nothing to do with Yggdrassil doesn't matter because WCI aren't resisting something different, they are resisting something very similar to itself. Maybe if it resisted the effects of something that wasn't Wild Magic, but then we would have already added these resistances since long ago. Because at no point, ever, in any of the novels is it said that World Class Items resist the effects of anything other than World Class Items, and it is never shown, and the only thing we are doing is ASSUMING that they would because otherwise it makes nonsense that it resists Wild Magic but doesn't resist Tiered Magic.
I am 99% sure by now that you really don't understand what's my point at all. I really don't think I can keep arguing this because you literally don't even understand what's my point.
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It has also never been shown that it doesn't resist teird magic, we assumed they only defended against other world class items because thats what ainz empathized but guess what? That doesn't mean they don't offer general resistances we have never seen a world class item user affected by something they should have resisted.
Your whole argument is based on an absence of evidence which we got in the side story. I perfectly understand I just don't see a problem with it. Until you pull up someone with a world class item being affected by lower teir, reality warping, bfr, existence erasure, or mind control your whole argument lacks evidence.
Edit: You falsly equalizing two magic systems that have not been shown to interact or interfere with one another. Gazefs sword could peirce ainz defenses despite the laws of yggdrasil deeming that impossible
Seems Im not the only one not getting your point nobody here has taken your side in our entire argument. Nobody else has the same beleifs or ideas you bring up.
Our new theory is you would infact resist teired magic thats the whole point. We are changing our original theory as it no longer fits with the evidence provided. You are making up a theory that wild magic and super teir items are simply equivlant.
Your whole argument is based on an absence of evidence which we got in the side story. I perfectly understand I just don't see a problem with it. Until you pull up someone with a world class item being affected by lower teir, reality warping, bfr, existence erasure, or mind control your whole argument lacks evidence.
Edit: You falsly equalizing two magic systems that have not been shown to interact or interfere with one another. Gazefs sword could peirce ainz defenses despite the laws of yggdrasil deeming that impossible
Seems Im not the only one not getting your point nobody here has taken your side in our entire argument. Nobody else has the same beleifs or ideas you bring up.
Our new theory is you would infact resist teired magic thats the whole point. We are changing our original theory as it no longer fits with the evidence provided. You are making up a theory that wild magic and super teir items are simply equivlant.
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Except you can't make those assumptions without any basis. And again, the assumption makes literally no sense when Ainz, the dude that thinks of everything, that we love to say how paranoid and prepared he is, and how he considers all the options he has, never even once in 13 volumes mentions World Items do that. In a specific scenario where he would be much safer if this were true when he's ready to investigate Cure, he doesn't even dedicate a "I could use the world item to make up for my resistances... nah, it's too risky". Not even that, so we are indeed pulling this out of thin air.
No, my whole argument is based on an absence of context that you all don't think it's relevant and don't wanna look at, and context of a specific scene that makes no sense if what you say is true and Ainz is as careful as he is. Because simply enough, Wild Magic is way more similar to World Items than anything else in Overlord. So we can't compare generic magic system X to Wild Magic because unlike generic magic system X, Wild Magic has a common quality which could neatly explain the reason why they resist each other. If you have Wild Magic, you resist Wild Magic no matter what. If you have a World Item, you resist World Items no matter what. This isn't X not working on Y, this is X not working on X, and also not working on something very similar to X.
Tier Magic doesn't work like World Items at all and has never been shown or implied to be resisted by them. Wild Magic has a very specific quality that it's the same as World Items and it was shown to resist them, just as wild magic users resist wild magic from others.
This is rather simple, you just decide that I am using lack of proof as evidence.
No, my whole argument is based on an absence of context that you all don't think it's relevant and don't wanna look at, and context of a specific scene that makes no sense if what you say is true and Ainz is as careful as he is. Because simply enough, Wild Magic is way more similar to World Items than anything else in Overlord. So we can't compare generic magic system X to Wild Magic because unlike generic magic system X, Wild Magic has a common quality which could neatly explain the reason why they resist each other. If you have Wild Magic, you resist Wild Magic no matter what. If you have a World Item, you resist World Items no matter what. This isn't X not working on Y, this is X not working on X, and also not working on something very similar to X.
Tier Magic doesn't work like World Items at all and has never been shown or implied to be resisted by them. Wild Magic has a very specific quality that it's the same as World Items and it was shown to resist them, just as wild magic users resist wild magic from others.
This is rather simple, you just decide that I am using lack of proof as evidence.
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Seriously, I don't get the deal about why WCI resistance should stay restricted solely to other WCIs and Wild Magic, when we have no evidence of an effect of Tiered Magic being pitted up against the protection of a World Item. If anything, there are more evidence that supports WCI resistance being applied to other types of magic (outside of Wild Magic).
I mean, changes in the character's profiles aren't truly permanent in this site. If there are solid evidence from a series that contradicts something we've established in this site, then we can simply change it to fit what is established in that series. In this case, if there is solid evidence that contradicts WCI resistance applying to the effects of Tiered Magic (which is the only other magic that exists in Overlord outside of Wild Magic), then we can simply establish the fact that WCI resistance only applies to Wild Magic and other WCIs. As of now, there aren't really any solid evidence that contradicts WCI resistance being applied to general effects, and there are even some evidence that actually supports WCI protection being applicable to general effects based on the effects of the pre-existing WCIs.
Edit: Anyways, while Ainz is definitely a good strategist in combat, I don't see why we assume Ainz can do this and that (not even including the fact that the Author wanted him to act that way, and probably didn't think that far ahead of Ainz's character) in that side story when he's not quite an infallible genius. Heck, he's not as smart as Demiurge or Albedo, so I don't see why we should see his line of thinking as flawless and incapable of errors (and that's not even including the fact that his line of thoughts could be quite obscure, leaving the audience in the dark more often than not).
I mean, changes in the character's profiles aren't truly permanent in this site. If there are solid evidence from a series that contradicts something we've established in this site, then we can simply change it to fit what is established in that series. In this case, if there is solid evidence that contradicts WCI resistance applying to the effects of Tiered Magic (which is the only other magic that exists in Overlord outside of Wild Magic), then we can simply establish the fact that WCI resistance only applies to Wild Magic and other WCIs. As of now, there aren't really any solid evidence that contradicts WCI resistance being applied to general effects, and there are even some evidence that actually supports WCI protection being applicable to general effects based on the effects of the pre-existing WCIs.
Edit: Anyways, while Ainz is definitely a good strategist in combat, I don't see why we assume Ainz can do this and that (not even including the fact that the Author wanted him to act that way, and probably didn't think that far ahead of Ainz's character) in that side story when he's not quite an infallible genius. Heck, he's not as smart as Demiurge or Albedo, so I don't see why we should see his line of thinking as flawless and incapable of errors (and that's not even including the fact that his line of thoughts could be quite obscure, leaving the audience in the dark more often than not).
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Just like in thirteen volumes he mentions one special ablity against dragons when hes going to fight a horde of dragons and never explains or focuses on it even as he approaches them. AInz fails to mention things alot I repeat give me an example of anyone holding a world class item being affected by teired magic and I will beleive you whole heartedly until than your argument is invalid. T
You are trying to use ainz lack of mentioning it as evidence, ainz famously leaves us in the dark all the time. Your argument relies on you knowing what ainz will do, we barly understand ainz or his stratgy against other players. We know he would go in and lose the first match, What was his strategy after, what spells did he use to win? Which of his seven hundred did he use most often in high level plays.
Again equalizing wild magic and wci prove they are the same. I repeat prove it, Prove the only reason ainz resisted is because they are the same until we get contradictory infromation this is
Edit: Lets not forget the throne blocks all teirs of divination magic
You are trying to use ainz lack of mentioning it as evidence, ainz famously leaves us in the dark all the time. Your argument relies on you knowing what ainz will do, we barly understand ainz or his stratgy against other players. We know he would go in and lose the first match, What was his strategy after, what spells did he use to win? Which of his seven hundred did he use most often in high level plays.
Again equalizing wild magic and wci prove they are the same. I repeat prove it, Prove the only reason ainz resisted is because they are the same until we get contradictory infromation this is
Edit: Lets not forget the throne blocks all teirs of divination magic
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Ugh... Okay, sure, I honestly don't care. Go head with the CRT if you want.
If I don't think the CRT is right, I don't and I just share my opinion. Saying that profiles change all the time is not an excuse to just shrug off and not argue against if I think it's wrong. But I honestly just feeling tired with all this so I'll drop it. My mood hasn't been good since yesterday due to life issues and I don't wanna go nuts in here.
If I don't think the CRT is right, I don't and I just share my opinion. Saying that profiles change all the time is not an excuse to just shrug off and not argue against if I think it's wrong. But I honestly just feeling tired with all this so I'll drop it. My mood hasn't been good since yesterday due to life issues and I don't wanna go nuts in here.
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Im sorry to hear that, while I still disagree with you I'm sad to hear your not doing well. I hope you get better and we can argue/debate again in the future (Who knows maybe someday we'll actually reach an agreement!)
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I am just following my own advice, as I tell people to step back I'd they aren't in good moods always.
Still, you should never and I reiterate, never go about things with "the profile can be changed so what if it's wrong". I don't agree with this, so I just explained why.
Still, you should never and I reiterate, never go about things with "the profile can be changed so what if it's wrong". I don't agree with this, so I just explained why.
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And I agree with the changes explaining why many times over, Like I said one day we may agree but that day is most surely not today! Feel better soon.
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So, you're evaluations about the additions in this thread, Dargoo?
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I suspect he is either A reading through a bunch of the above post or B off reading the evileye sidestory itself....
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I will have to contemplate and read over the arguments, LSir seems to have a point; we can't really insinuate something through "why wouldn't it do this" but instead we'd need an example of it working on whatever.
That put I'd personally find it silly for the World Item protection to work on Wild Magic and then stop at lower Tiered Magic, but we still need to prove the latter case.
That put I'd personally find it silly for the World Item protection to work on Wild Magic and then stop at lower Tiered Magic, but we still need to prove the latter case.
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