One Piece: Sanji Ifrit Jambe Justification Fix

[DaMonkeMan]

How 'bout this:
We simply wait for him to use IJ again, when ever that'll be, and if he somehow shows that he actually can separate the two and still use IJ efficiently, then I'll concede.
For now I disagree.

 

[Kachon123]

No, that's not how it works.

 

[DaMonkeMan]

I do not like arguing with this guy.

 

[Kachon123]

You can disagree if you'd like, but waiting for Ifrit Jambe to show up again is useless as it doesn't matter to the point of this thread.

 

[Godernet]

But dude, what I'm saying is he always uses both in conjunction, so why separate them?

He's only used it once so saying always holds no real weight yet.

The problem is that Sanji in his explanation made the distinction between what Ifrit Jambe is and how he can further enhance it separately.

While he did combine the principles in its only use, that doesn't change what the technique is.

How 'bout this:
We simply wait for him to use IJ again, when ever that'll be, and if he somehow shows that he actually can separate the two and still use IJ efficiently, then I'll concede.
For now I disagree.

That's fair, I personally think it's uncontroversial so I'll keep my vote but I could be proven wrong.

 

[DaMonkeMan]

I think it's wrong for now.

 

[Damage3245]

Okay, so my perspective is that it isn't just the exoskeleton, or the enhanced speed, or the hotter temperature flames which make up Ifrit Jambe.

It is the sum all of the parts.

Sanji could move faster than normal if he wanted without it being Ifrit Jambe. And he could make hotter flames on his legs without it being Ifrit Jambe (though he would still need Haki to withstand them).

But when he uses high-temperatures flames, and his exoskeleton, and his immense speed... then that fighting style combining those elements is Ifrit Jambe.


That's my current perspective on it.

 

[Kachon123]

Okay, so my perspective is that it isn't just the exoskeleton, or the enhanced speed, or the hotter temperature flames which make up Ifrit Jambe.

It is the sum all of the parts.

Sanji could move faster than normal if he wanted without it being Ifrit Jambe. And he could make hotter flames on his legs without it being Ifrit Jambe (though he would still need Haki to withstand them).

But when he uses high-temperatures flames, and his exoskeleton, and his immense speed... then that fighting style combining those elements is Ifrit Jambe.


That's my current perspective on it.

The issue is that Ifrit Jambe literally is the hotter flames.

 

[Kachon123]

The name Diable Jambe means Devil Leg. It's named that because of the extreme heat from the flames. The same thing applies to Ifrit Jambe. Ifrit Jambe is named the way it is because of the fire, not because of everything else that Sanji can stack with it.

 

[Godernet]

Okay, so my perspective is that it isn't just the exoskeleton, or the enhanced speed, or the hotter temperature flames which make up Ifrit Jambe.

It is the sum all of the parts.

Sanji could move faster than normal if he wanted without it being Ifrit Jambe. And he could make hotter flames on his legs without it being Ifrit Jambe (though he would still need Haki to withstand them).

But when he uses high-temperatures flames, and his exoskeleton, and his immense speed... then that fighting style combining those elements is Ifrit Jambe.


That's my current perspective on it.

Probably the last comment I'll make since I gotta go work on Nard stuff before I go to sleep.

Based on what we know there are 3 separate components to Ifrit Jambe.

The Hotter Flames: Sanji uses his inexplicable fire manipulation to make flames even hotter than DJ.

Exo+Buso: A necessary step before he creates these hot flames as Sanji's regular durability would be insufficient to withstand them.

Physical Stats: the stronger and faster Sanji is the more powerful Ifrit will be.

His enhanced speed is a separate ability of Sanjis that he can utilize to make Ifrit more powerful than it otherwise would be. His Ifrit Jambe vs Queen was a result of him using all these components to their maximum capabilities. But that does not mean he can only use Ifrit by combining those three principles.

And given Ifrit is just enhanced Diable, its speed should increase as well. We have no reason to assume otherwise.

The way I look at it rn:

Diable < Ifrit Jambe(normally) ~ Enhanced Speed < Ifrit Jambe(amped by Enhanced Speed)

He does but that doesn't mean he can only use it with enhanced speed. The only requirements he gives are Exo+Buso to shield himself from the flames. Sanji's fire manipulation should not be reliant on his speed.

do you have any thoughts on the additional comments I left?

 

[Godernet]

Okay, so my perspective is that it isn't just the exoskeleton, or the enhanced speed, or the hotter temperature flames which make up Ifrit Jambe.

It is the sum all of the parts.

Sanji could move faster than normal if he wanted without it being Ifrit Jambe. And he could make hotter flames on his legs without it being Ifrit Jambe (though he would still need Haki to withstand them).

But when he uses high-temperatures flames, and his exoskeleton, and his immense speed... then that fighting style combining those elements is Ifrit Jambe.


That's my current perspective on it.

I don't think that's the case as Ifrit is innately just amped Diable. We don't only call it Diable Jambe when Sanji is moving at his max speed, it's the same whether he's standing still or doing a kick mid-flight. Diable Jambe and all of its variations are a result of Sanji's fire manipulation, not the method nor speed that the kick is delivered. When the way he delivers the kick is changed that's when we get variations like Grill Shot or Collier.

 

[SnookB]

Ifrit Jambe seems unrelated to post-germa cells things entirely. If anything it sounds like he could produce that flame prior to the exoskeleton and just wouldn't be able to sustain it/endure it, but the exoskeleton+busoshoku help with that.

 

[DaMonkeMan]

Okay, so my perspective is that it isn't just the exoskeleton, or the enhanced speed, or the hotter temperature flames which make up Ifrit Jambe.

It is the sum all of the parts.

Sanji could move faster than normal if he wanted without it being Ifrit Jambe. And he could make hotter flames on his legs without it being Ifrit Jambe (though he would still need Haki to withstand them).

But when he uses high-temperatures flames, and his exoskeleton, and his immense speed... then that fighting style combining those elements is Ifrit Jambe.


That's my current perspective on it.

Same here.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Either explanation works, you could just as easily make the justification "Far stronger/more durable than his Diable Jambe"

 

[DaMonkeMan]

I really don't see a problem with the current explanation..

 

[Kachon123]

It implies that Ifrit is what it is not.

 

[SnookB]

Current justification implies IJ is a byproduct of Exo+Haki+Speed+Strength
His dialogue directly contradicts that and only attributes the Exo+Haki to the endurance against said fire

 

[Eseseso]

At least for durability I can accept the speed thing being removed, since speed has nothing to do with durability.

 

[Kachon123]

At least for durability I can accept the speed thing being removed, since speed has nothing to do with durability.

Like I said earlier, since Ifrit Jambe is the flames, we must separate the justifications.

This is like how in Kaido's page, he has Conqueror's Coating and Zoan forms, and although he can use them together, we don't add Conqueror's Coating as justification for his Zoan Forms' values. Instead, we separate them.

 

[DaMonkeMan]

Current justification implies IJ is a byproduct of Exo+Haki+Speed+Strength
His dialogue directly contradicts that and only attributes the Exo+Haki to the endurance against said fire

It is a byproduct of that, though I understand your point.
Basically, IJ does have all of that, but it can function WITHOUT it.
That's the purpose of this CRT, correct?
In that case perhaps I agree but I don't see why he'd separate the speed and strength parts..

 

[Eseseso]

It is a byproduct of that, though I understand your point.
Basically, IJ does have all of that, but it can function WITHOUT it.
That's the purpose of this CRT, correct?
In that case perhaps I agree but I don't see why he'd separate the speed and strength parts..

Basically this.

 

[Kachon123]

I don't see why he'd separate the speed and strength parts..

It doesn't really matter if he would or not. The mere fact that they aren't the same means that we have to show that in the profiles, which we don't currently.

 

[Godernet]

so for AP could it be something like this?:

even higher with Ifrit Jambe (Ifrit Jambe is an enhanced version of his Diable Jambe that combines his Vinsmoke Exoskeleton and Busōshoku Haki to make his legs durable enough to withstand its increased heat.) far higher with Enhanced Speed(Sanji can further amplify his Ifrit Jambe's attack power by amplifying his speed even further, Put Hybrid Form Queen on his knees with a single kick to the head.[9] With Beef Burst, he sent Hybrid Form Queen flying off of Onigashima and completely incapacitated him, while kicking some of his teeth out in the process)

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

so for AP could it be something like this?:

even higher with Ifrit Jambe (Ifrit Jambe is an enhanced version of his Diable Jambe that combines his Vinsmoke Exoskeleton and Busōshoku Haki to make his legs durable enough to withstand its increased heat.) far higher with Enhanced Speed(Sanji can further amplify his Ifrit Jambe's attack power by amplifying his speed even further, Put Hybrid Form Queen on his knees with a single kick to the head.[9] With Beef Burst, he sent Hybrid Form Queen flying off of Onigashima and completely incapacitated him, while kicking some of his teeth out in the process)

Ugh, One Piece and it's long ass explanations... That shit can be cut down so easily

far higher with Ifrit Jambe (Ifrit Jambe is far stronger than Diable Jambe. Easily defeated Hybrid Form Queen with Beef Burst)

 

[Kachon123]

even higher with Ifrit Jambe (Ifrit Jambe is an enhanced version of his Diable Jambe that combines his Vinsmoke Exoskeleton and Busōshoku Haki to make his legs durable enough to withstand its increased heat.) far higher with Enhanced Speed(Sanji can further amplify his Ifrit Jambe's attack power by amplifying his speed even further, Put Hybrid Form Queen on his knees with a single kick to the head.[9] With Beef Burst, he sent Hybrid Form Queen flying off of Onigashima and completely incapacitated him, while kicking some of his teeth out in the process)

This looks perfect

 

[Kachon123]

Ugh, One Piece and it's long ass explanations... That shit can be cut down so easily

far higher with Ifrit Jambe (Ifrit Jambe is far stronger than Diable Jambe. Easily defeated Hybrid Form Queen with Beef Burst)

The Enhanced Speed needs to be included as well though.

 

[Godernet]

Ugh, One Piece and it's long ass explanations... That shit can be cut down so easily

far higher with Ifrit Jambe (Ifrit Jambe is far stronger than Diable Jambe. Easily defeated Hybrid Form Queen with Beef Burst)

I mean the first two parts are necessary for making sure people understand the difference between Ifrit with and without the speed boost, but cutting out the Queen part is fine.

even higher with Ifrit Jambe (Ifrit Jambe is an enhanced version of his Diable Jambe that combines his Vinsmoke Exoskeleton and Busōshoku Haki to make his legs durable enough to withstand its increased heat.) far higher with Enhanced Speed(Sanji can further amplify his Ifrit Jambe's attack power by amplifying his speed even further.)

 

[DaMonkeMan]

Ugh, One Piece and it's long ass explanations... That shit can be cut down so easily

far higher with Ifrit Jambe (Ifrit Jambe is far stronger than Diable Jambe. Easily defeated Hybrid Form Queen with Beef Burst)

Hey, guess what 2 assets he needed to defeat him with that though

 

[Damage3245]

The Enhanced Speed needs to be included as well though.

Why? A character can kick someone slowly or they can kick someone quickly. It's common sense that the faster kick will be a stronger kick; it doesn't need to be noted on a profile.

 

[Kachon123]

Why? A character can kick someone slowly or they can kick someone quickly. It's common sense that the faster kick will be a stronger kick; it doesn't need to be noted on a profile.

That's a pretty bad analogy.

 

[Godernet]

Why? A character can kick someone slowly or they can kick someone quickly. It's common sense that the faster kick will be a stronger kick; it doesn't need to be noted on a profile.

the difference is Sanji has a speed amp that can be consciously used at any time to enhance the force of his kicks greatly.

it's not the same as someone choosing to kick a little faster.

 

[Damage3245]

the difference is Sanji has a speed amp that can be consciously used at any time to enhance the force of his kicks greatly.

it's not the same as someone choosing to kick a little faster.

... But this "speed amp" isn't some special transformation or form. It is just Sanji deciding to be a moving faster than he was before.

 

[XDragnoir]

... But this "speed amp" isn't some special transformation or form. It is just Sanji deciding to be a moving faster than he was before.

What? It quite literally is, it's pretty explicitly a different level of speed that needs to be activated, and saying something needs to be a special form to be noted is a really bad argument, we note things like haki (which isn't a special transformation or form, it's not even special as several characters have it) and Zoro's Gorilla amps which he used like, two times?

Also, your previous post makes some sense yes, but we have actually seen normal DJ being paired with Super Speed without becoming Ifrit's blue-sparky fire, you're literally saying that because 2 things happened at the same time they HAVE to be tied together, when that's just not the case as super speed isn't even noted to be what allows him to create/withstand the flames.

 

[Eseseso]

We should wait to see whether he uses IJ against S-Shark, since that'll help settle things.

And I now have switched back to disagreeing with OP after what Damage has said.

 

[Kachon123]

We should wait to see whether he uses IJ against S-Shark, since that'll help settle things.

No, it would not.

 

[Eseseso]

No, it would not.

Yes it would.

 

[Kachon123]

Yes it would.

How?

 

[DaMonkeMan]

We should wait to see whether he uses IJ against S-Shark, since that'll help settle things.

And I now have switched back to disagreeing with OP after what Damage has said.

Same.

 

[Eseseso]

How?

By hopefully showing whether or not he always has to stack Enhanced Speed with everything else to create IJ.

 

[Kachon123]

By hopefully showing whether or not he always has to stack Enhanced Speed with everything else to create IJ.

Ifrit Jambe by definition does not use his Enhanced Speed.

Sanji has a natural ability to conjure flames independent of whether he's moving or not. We do not need to wait for Sanji to use it next.