One Piece: Sanji Ifrit Jambe Justification Fix

[Kachon123]

Alright lets not derail.

 

[DaMonkeMan]

or some Lunarian properties. Enhanced durability + fire manipulation seems pretty suspicious.

He had to awaken it though.
At most he seems like a half-Lunarian.

 

[Eseseso]

It's in the second option in the OP as well.

I can agree with that, but I'm still not sold on IJ not using his enhanced speed as well.

It can be argued that IJ is still a better version of DJ (and thus still give a higher speed boost) and also use enhanced speed.

 

[DaMonkeMan]

What he said.

 

[Kachon123]

I can agree with that, but I'm still not sold on IJ not using his enhanced speed as well.

It can be argued that IJ is still a better version of DJ (and thus still give a higher speed boost) and also use enhanced speed.

There's no proof that it inherently uses Sanji's Enhanced Speed

 

[Kachon123]

In fact, Sanji's statement blatantly goes against the notion that Ifrit needs to be used with Enhanced Speed.

 

[Eseseso]

There's no proof that it inherently uses Sanji's Enhanced Speed

Based on Sanji's own statement.

I'm neutral until other people input with knowledge give their opinions about this.

 

[Kachon123]

Based on Sanji's own statement.

Sanji's statement blatantly goes against the notion that Ifrit needs to be used with Enhanced Speed.

Can you point out where specifically Sanji alludes to Ifrit needing his Enhanced Speed?

 

[Eseseso]

Can you point out where specifically Sanji alludes to Ifrit needing his Enhanced Speed?

He mentions the enhanced speed at the start, and then mentions the "faster acceleration" as empowering his blows.

 

[Kachon123]

He mentions the enhanced speed at the start, and then mentions the "faster acceleration" as empowering his blows.

Did you read the OP? I addressed this.

 

[XDragnoir]

I think people don't understand the difference between the flames themselves and the attacks he used against Queen.

The flames are created by just literally increasing the heat of his flames, literally just that, the Exoskeleton and his Buso are needed to withstand the heat, the speed doesn't interact with anything at all here and was only important to increase the AP behind the kicks more than Ifrit would by itself.

 

[DaMonkeMan]

Dog what are you babbling about we already established that.

 

[Kachon123]

Dog what are you babbling about we already established that.

Clearly not, as Eseseso seems to disagree with what Drag said.

 

[Therefir]

I think the current justification is trying to say that enhanced speed equals more power which would be correct.

 

[Eseseso]

I think the current justification is trying to say that enhanced speed equals more power which would be correct.

This.

 

[Kachon123]

I think the current justification is trying to say that enhanced speed equals more power which would be correct.

It should be separated from Ifrit Jambe, which is what the OP is saying.

 

[Godernet]

Probably the last comment I'll make since I gotta go work on Nard stuff before I go to sleep.

Based on what we know there are 3 separate components to Ifrit Jambe.

The Hotter Flames: Sanji uses his inexplicable fire manipulation to make flames even hotter than DJ.

Exo+Buso: A necessary step before he creates these hot flames as Sanji's regular durability would be insufficient to withstand them.

Physical Stats: the stronger and faster Sanji is the more powerful Ifrit will be.

His enhanced speed is a separate ability of Sanjis that he can utilize to make Ifrit more powerful than it otherwise would be. His Ifrit Jambe vs Queen was a result of him using all these components to their maximum capabilities. But that does not mean he can only use Ifrit by combining those three principles.

And given Ifrit is just enhanced Diable, its speed should increase as well. We have no reason to assume otherwise.

The way I look at it rn:

Diable < Ifrit Jambe(normally) ~ Enhanced Speed < Ifrit Jambe(amped by Enhanced Speed)

 

[Kachon123]

Probably the last comment I'll make since I gotta go work on Nard stuff before I go to sleep.

Based on what we know there are 3 separate components to Ifrit Jambe.

The Hotter Flames: Sanji uses his inexplicable fire manipulation to make flames even hotter than DJ.

Exo+Buso: A necessary step before he creates these hot flames as Sanji's regular durability would be insufficient to withstand them.

Physical Stats: the stronger and faster Sanji is the more powerful Ifrit will be.

His enhanced speed is a separate ability of Sanjis that he can utilize to make Ifrit more powerful than it otherwise would be. His Ifrit Jambe vs Queen was a result of him using all these components to their maximum capabilities. But that does not mean he can only use Ifrit by combining those three principles.

And given Ifrit is just enhanced Diable, its speed should increase as well. We have no reason to assume otherwise.

The way I look at it rn:

Diable < Ifrit Jambe(normally) ~ Enhanced Speed < Ifrit Jambe(amped by Enhanced Speed)

This.

 

[DaMonkeMan]

Doesn't he use that enhanced speed for IJ?

 

[Kachon123]

Doesn't he use that enhanced speed for IJ?

He doesn't need to use it to use Ifrit, is the point that is being made

 

[Godernet]

Doesn't he use that enhanced speed for IJ?

He does but that doesn't mean he can only use it with enhanced speed. The only requirements he gives are Exo+Buso to shield himself from the flames. Sanji's fire manipulation should not be reliant on his speed.

 

[DaMonkeMan]

He credits speed/acceleration as a main factor, though.
Sure you can say he doesn't need it to MAKE Ifrit Jambe, but in order for it to truly work he needs that speed to increase the power and to possibly outplace/blitz people who kept up with his previous amps.

 

[Kachon123]

Then we can put an "even higher with Enhanced Speed" rating, but the Enhanced Speed is seperate from Ifrit Jambe.

 

[DaMonkeMan]

Think I might disagree.

 

[Kachon123]

Think I might disagree.

With?

 

[DaMonkeMan]

With?

With the proposals??

 

[Kachon123]

With the proposals??

What is your reasoning?

 

[DaMonkeMan]

I thought I already showed my reasoning.
Also the profiles never say he NEEDS the enhanced speed for Ifrit, but it is merely the canon description given by Sanji him self.
He lists speed/acceleration, better heat, Armament, Exoskeleton etc. as the main ingredients.
Obviously, it can do without the speed part, but that'd make no sense as he practically needs it to make the full power and weight of the attack.

 

[Kachon123]

as he practically needs it to make the full power and weight of the attack.

What do you mean by "the full power of the attack"?

Ifrit Jambe itself is the full power of Ifrit Jambe.

Ifrit Jambe with Enhanced Speed is an amped Ifrit Jambe.

We don't include amps at a character's base AP, so why would we do it here?

 

[DaMonkeMan]

Because it's not an amp, the whole point is that he uses the speed as a main asset for it.
More speed = More power.
He wouldn't ever use it without using his max speed as it means he doesn't hit at max power.
Said it once I'll say it again.
I slowly put my fist against a window. The window is perfectly fine.
I slam my fist into the window quickly, it shatters.
I owe that to speed.

 

[Godernet]

He credits speed/acceleration as a main factor, though.

I mean, of course, speed and strength will always be a factor in the delivery of a kick, which was Sanji's main point in this top-right portion of the panel.

Sure you can say he doesn't need it to MAKE Ifrit Jambe, but in order for it to truly work he needs that speed to increase the power and to possibly outplace/blitz people who kept up with his previous amps.

He needs it if he's trying to be as effective as possible which doesn't change the fact that Ifrit will innately be more powerful than Diable because of the hotter flames.

The Speed Amp is needed for the same attack power we see against Queen. But let's not act like a normal Ifrit Kick wouldn't still be an AP amp over a regular Diable kick, especially since he needs two layers of protection to even use it.

 

[DaMonkeMan]

I mean, of course, speed and strength will always be a factor in the delivery of a kick, which was Sanji's main point in this top-right portion of the panel.

He needs it if he's trying to be as effective as possible which doesn't change the fact that Ifrit will innately be more powerful than Diable because of the hotter flames.

The Speed Amp is needed for the same attack power we see against Queen. But let's not act like a normal Ifrit Kick wouldn't still be an AP amp over a regular Diable kick, especially since he needs two layers of protection to even use it.

Ofc it's naturally more powerful due to hotter flames, but he never uses it without the super speed in character so far, so there's no point in separating those keys.

 

[Kachon123]

They're not keys, they're justifications.

Ifrit Jambe by itself already has justifications to put it where it is due to it being vastly superior to Diable Jambe.

Sanji can stack that already powerful technique with his Enhanced Speed to make it stronger.

They are inherently 2 different things that can be added together.

 

[DaMonkeMan]

I don't care what you call it, I still disagree because it simply doesn't make sense.
Sorry.

 

[Kachon123]

Your reasoning for disagreeing is you not understanding how profiles and justifications are made.

If two techniques are different and can be added together, then they would be "higher with x, even higher with y", not "higher with x (uses y)"

 

[Godernet]

I slowly put my fist against a window. The window is perfectly fine.
I slam my fist into the window quickly, it shatters.
I owe that to speed.

that oversimplifies it a bit,

a better example, you normally punch with a force of 120 psi(Diable)

you later gain the ability to consciously choose to punch twice as fast(enhanced speed)

you also gain the ability to punch at 170 PSI a little faster than you could before with some prep(Ifrit)

To hit something you have a strong desire to break before you collapse you combine your ability to punch at 170 PSI with your ability to punch twice as fast.

 

[Godernet]

Ofc it's naturally more powerful due to hotter flames, but he never uses it without the super speed in character so far, so there's no point in separating those keys.

he's only had one high-extreme diff fight since getting the Exo. saying it's not in character is a bit of an exaggeration.

Also, if we know there's a distinction between the two we should make sure that distinction is made clear on the profiles whether he uses it often or not.

 

[Kachon123]

Also, if we know there's a distinction between the two we should make sure that distinction is made clear on the profiles whether he uses it often or not.

This ^^^

 

[DaMonkeMan]

he's only had one high-extreme diff fight since getting the Exo. saying it's not in character is a bit of an exaggeration.

Also, if we know there's a distinction between the two we should make sure that distinction is made clear on the profiles whether he uses it often or not.

But dude, what I'm saying is he always uses both in conjunction, so why separate them?

 

[Kachon123]

it implies that Ifrit Jambe can only be used in conjunction with his enhanced speed, which is wrong.

Read this part of the OP.


It doesn't matter if he often uses them together. The mere fact that they are not the same ability and are separate means that we must reflect that in the profikes.