One Piece: KT's Goken vs Swordsmen Desire Revision

[KingTempest]

After skimming through the manga in One Piece, reading many threads on different websites, and occurring in many offsite debates and discussions, I've been pushed to the point of tackling a concept in One Piece not explained by many, and it's been misinterpreted by several others.

I know there are already threads about it

https://vsbattles.com/threads/one-piece-mighty-blade-goken-revision.121659/

https://vsbattles.com/threads/one-piece-swordsmen-desire-crt.113879/

But I've never tackled it on my own, which is what I'm here to do now.

Basically, I've noticed that the phrase Goken has been likened to the thing Zoro did to Daz Bones, the cutting steel stuff. I've also seen it be used to say it uses Haki. Both of those, I heavily disagree with, and both of those I'll be discussing in this thread.

Phrases to Remember​

Spoiler

The General Ones​

侍 = Samurai
剣 = Sword/Blade
剛剣 = Hard Sword
豪剣 = Strong Sword
最強の剣 = The Strongest Sword
剛 = Strong, Hard, Manly
豪 = Overpowering, Great, Powerful, Excelling
士 = man (esp. one who is well-respected), samurai, person (in a certain profession, esp. licensed), member
剣士 = Swordsman
腕力 = Physical Strength
動力 = Power
破壊力 = Destructive Power
大剣豪 = Great Swordsman
最強の剣士 = Strongest Swordsman
世界最強の剣士 = Strongest Swordsman in the World

The Most Important Ones​

豪剣 = Strong Sword
最強の剣 = The Strongest Sword
腕力 = Physical Strength
動力 = Power
破壊力 = Destructive Power

One Thing to Note​

The Goken that will be noted in this text is 豪剣 (Strong Sword), not 剛剣 (Hard Sword). Both of them are pronounced as Goken.

The Uses of Goken (豪剣) in the Series​

Spoiler

One thing I've noticed is that this is.a term that has been used... actually pretty minimally.

Goken (豪剣) as a term has been used 4 times in the entire series.

Volume 3 (Page 136) Concept Art HERE​

The first time we see it is in the Concept Art for Roronoa Zoro, when Oda originally wanted him to be known as a Buggy Pirate. He refers to him as "Strong Blade Zoro", using it as a title like "Straw Hat Luffy".

Chapter 195, Early in the chapter when Zoro refers to the Principle of Goken HERE​

I asked a friend of mine to translate it.

押して押す事これが〝豪剣〟の極意!!!

Pushing and shoving is the secret of the "Gouken"!

He doesn't understand the concept of the Desire of a Swordsman, stated in the previous and current chapter, so he goes into his Goken principals of never giving up, which is why he charges at Bonez and screams "I'll keep trying until I succeed!" This is noting that his regular sword style isn't good enough, and that training isn't good enough.

Chapter 467, Brook notes Ryuma and Zoro as Goken swordsmen HERE​

Brook watches Ryuma use his (Brook's) sword technique, but it produces an air pressure based thrust from his attack. Zoro counteracted it with his own flying slash. Brook witnesses their short battle and calls them both Goken type swordsmen.

Chapter 939, Hyogoro calls himself the Mighty Blade while trying to teach Luffy Advanced Armament HERE​

Luffy is learning Advanced Armament Haki, and Hyogoro states that Phrase.

The definition of Goken (豪剣)​

Spoiler

Goken means Strong Sword, yes. But specifically, Goken is a term to qualify physically strong swordsman in One Piece.

On the official One Piece website with the link below

第124回：Whose Line is This Anyway? | ONE PIECE.com（ワンピース ドットコム）

『ONE PIECE（ワンピース）』スペシャルコンテンツは ONE PIECE.com（ワンピース ドットコム）で公開中！

one-piece.com

We are given the term Goken (or Gouken) with the same Kanji, and it says this

We also see the term 豪剣 or ‘gouken’ pop up which is a descriptive term for powerful swordsman like Ryuma that we’ve heard in the past.

Basically it's an adjective for specific swordsmen.

It's not a technique, it's an adjective, seen with the Zoro description on Chap 23 above, "Goken Zoro". Uses it in the same context of "Santoryu Zoro", or when Brook calls Ryuma a "Goken Samurai"..

This is shown when Zoro trains. What does he do? Train his muscles.

This is elaborated on in Chapter 467. Brook watches Ryuma send an air slash while using Brook's move.

In context​

Ryuma has been revived thanks to Moria's Kage Kage fruit, but he's given Brook's Shadow.

A shadow basically has a person's personality, but also their fighting style. Ryuma couldn't use his own OG moves, but he could use Brook's techniques.

A shadow has the physical strength of the corpse with the fighting style of the shadow provided. So Ryuma's physical strength with Brook's fighting style.

Brook watches Ryuma do his technique on 466, and he's surprised that the attack produces an air pressure thrust since his own version of the technique doesn't do that. He is surprised and asks how much physical strength does it take. Zoro does the same thing, and Brook says this.

Brook: Impossible! He sent that jab flying...
How much muscle must that take...?!

Ryuma: Yohohoho. We find ourselves at a deadlock.

Hole: (crumble...)

Franky: What?!

- Page 149 -

Ryuma: ...Yohoho. Nearly cut me there...

Franky: What happened?! When did the stomachband guy counterattack?!

Brook: It was... at the same time...
So his slashes can fly as well!!
The samurai zombie... moves by the power of my shadow, now...
But in life, he must have been quite a powerful blademaster!!
It is possible that those two possess...
The same kind of musculature, as swordsmen.

Franky: What happens if they're the same?

Brook: Then they both carry similar levels of destruction...
This match
will not last long, I should think.

Cross referencing it with the raws, and substituting the kanji with the ones above (relax, they have the same meaning, just changing the wording).

Ryuma: ...Yohoho. Nearly cut me there...

Franky: What happened?! When did the stomachband guy counterattack?!

Brook: It was... at the same time...
So his slashes can fly as well!!
The samurai zombie... moves by the power of my shadow, now...
But in life, he must have been a Goken (豪剣) Samurai (侍)!!
It is possible that those two possess...
The same kind of Physical Strength (腕力), as Swordsmen (剣士).

Franky: What happens if they're the same?

Brook: Then they both carry similar Destructive Power (破壊力)...
This match
will not last long, I should think.

What does this mean?

That Goken is something tied to the physical strength of a swordsman, and not the Swordsman's Desire.

What is the Swordsman's Desire? And what is it's split from Goken?​

Spoiler: Explanation of Swordsman's Desire

Official One Piece Website

■師匠の教えを胸に、鉄を斬る！『一刀流「居合」〝獅子歌歌〟』

アラバスタ編での、体が鉄の硬さを持った「全身刃物人間」Mr.1とのバトルでは、鉄を斬ることができないゾロの斬撃は全く効かず、苦戦を強いられます。敵の容赦ない攻撃に〝死の境地〟まで到達したその時、ゾロは万物の「呼吸」を読み取ることができるようになります。師匠の教えを思い出し、Mr.1の鉄の「呼吸」を読み、相手を斬る時の力、タイミング、急所などを把握すると、あれほど響かなかったゾロの刃は、相手を斬り抜いたのです。その速さたるや、まさに神速。斬る瞬間は目にも止まらず、納刀する頃には敵は膝をついて崩れ落ち…。自身に試練を与えてくれたMr.1に対し感謝を述べるところも、ゾロの成長が伺えます（『ONE PIECE』21巻195話）。

With the teachings of the master in mind, slay the iron! "Ittoryu "Iai" "Shishi Sonson""

In the Alabaster Arc, Zoro's slashes were completely ineffective in the battle against Mr. 1, a "full-body blade man" whose body has the hardness of iron, and he was forced to struggle. When he reaches the point of death due to the enemy's relentless attacks, Zoro is able to read the "breath" of all things. Remembering his master's teachings, he read Mr.1's iron "breath" and grasped the power, timing, and vital points of his attack. The speed of the cut was truly divine. The moment of the cut was unstoppable, and by the time he had finished, the enemy had fallen to his knees. The fact that he expresses his gratitude to Mr.1 for giving him the ordeal also shows Zoro's growth (ONE PIECE, vol. 21, episode 195).

Vivre Card

一刀流 居合
【獅子歌歌】

ー刀に全力を込めて放つ必殺の居合。敵の「呼吸」を感じる事で斬るべき力·速度·角度を捉え、神速の抜刀で鉄をも断ち斬る!!

Ittoryu Iai
Shishi Sonson

This is a special type of iai where you put all your strength into your sword and unleash it. By feeling the enemy's "breath", he can determine the power, speed and angle at which he should cut, and cut through iron with his god-like speed!

One thing to note is here in the explanation of it on Chapter 194.

People see the viz translation of the strongest sword and think that it's referring to Goken because it says "strong" and "sword", which it doesn't.

You can look at the kanji and cross reference it with Mihawk's title of the strongest swordsman in the kanji I sent far above.

最強の剣 = The Strongest Sword
最強の剣士 = Strongest Swordsman

Is it giving any underlying meaning that lowkey means "Strong Sword"? No. It just means the strongest sword. It's not referring to Goken.

Why This Has Nothing to Do With Haki​

Spoiler

Because of Hyo's statement, people think that it has something to do with Haki.

For context, Hyogoro is teaching Luffy how to use Haki and he says something about the Strong Sword.

I've checked the raws and I've checked the Viz translation, and they align.

Hyogoro says that people called him "Strong Sword" or "Strong Blade", like an alias. Basically, he was known as that name. You can see under the "The Uses of Goken (豪剣) in the Series" section for the actual viz scan.

Along with that, there is no shown correlation between the Haki he was speaking about and Armament Haki.

Why It Doesn't Speak About Armament Haki​

The Kanji for Haki is 覇気, which means Ambition and such.

When Zoro says that he puts his will into the blade, it says 意志 for Will, which is completely different from Haki.

Zoro saying that he puts his will into the blade is not saying he puts his Haki into the blade. This is misinterpreted for the Willpower aspect in Haoshoku, yet Haoshoku runs off of Willpower and Busoshoku runs off of Life Force.

This is justified by the Vivre Cards, which does not give Roronoa Zoro Busoshoku Haki for using it. This is also justified by Shishi Sonson, which does not mention adding a specific power to the blade, but instead manipulating your own speed and strength to cut different things.

Conclusion​

Spoiler

Because Goken is not referring to the Swordsman's Desire, those who are stated to be Goken swordsman do not get Swordsman's Desire.

On top of that, because this doesn't include Busoshoku Haki, Zoro loses Busoshoku Haki pre timeskip. Anyone who doesn't have an alternate reason for Busoshoku Haki loses it as well.

 

[ZoroNotZolo]

This is like a college lecture on One Piece. Are you ProfessorTempest now?

But I agree.

 

[Eminiteable]

Regarding the statement's from the OP website, they're not an official source. At the very least Greg's question corner isn't.

Also using concept art before the series has even begun, or alternatively using concept art for a concept that first appeared 195 chapters later and fully explained in the 900 range seems really inaccurate.

Hyogoro says that people called him "Strong Sword" or "Strong Blade", like an alias. Basically, he was known as that name. You can see under the "The Uses of Goken (豪剣) in the Series" section for the actual viz scan.

This is wrong based on the volume release of the Viz translations (Which are more accurate than weekly released as they're revised by the same translator) which says "I was known for using the mighty blade in the past" he was never called that at least as far as the viz says.

Along with that, there is no shown correlation between the Haki he was speaking about and Armament Haki.

Hyogoro says "I was known for using the mighty blade in the past... and I don't know if I can properly teach it... but take a look for yourself" in which he demonstrates an emission Ryuo blast.

Keep in mind before calling himself a user of the Mighty Blade he described this:
"In Wano too, there is an invisible power that stems from the body and can be infused with the blade." then explains cutting steel in the same language as Koushiro did in chapter 194.

Keep in mind this is the most recent and in depth explanation we've received of Goken/cutting steel. I disagree with the revision.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Is this gonna be on the Final Test Professor Tempest?

Well this seems pretty direct and well researched, I fully agree with everything said in the OP

 

[StrawHatArslan]

I disagree with the OP fra provided by emin

 

[Eminiteable]

This is justified by the Vivre Cards, which does not give Roronoa Zoro Busoshoku Haki for using it.

Not really a support for your argument when...
Yamato and Zoro didn't have conqueror's on their cards
Jack had no haki mentioned on his card but a later release did
Luffy lacked observation haki on his pre-timeskip card

 

[ZoroNotZolo]

Emin VS KT = when the smart kid disagrees with the teacher

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Emin VS KT = when the smart kid disagrees with the teacher

 

[KingTempest]

Regarding the statement's from the OP website, they're not an official source. At the very least Greg's question corner isn't.

The website has been approved by Oda and it even has his name at the bottom of the website.

Also using concept art before the series has even begun, or alternatively using concept art for a concept that first appeared 195 chapters later and fully explained in the 900 range seems really inaccurate.

That's fair

This is wrong based on the volume release of the Viz translations (Which are more accurate than weekly released as they're revised by the same translator) which says "I was known for using the mighty blade in the past" he was never called that at least as far as the viz says.

Hyogoro says saying "I was known for using the mighty blade in the past... and I don't know if I can properly teach it... but take a look for yourself" in which he demonstrates an emission Ryuo blast.

#1 I'm gonna need to see where it says Stephen Paul revises his translations in the volume releases
#2 What you quoted makes absolutely no sense in that translation. He's going to teach the mighty blade? Wouldn't he need a sword for that? And what would an emission blast have to do with failing to cut paper?
#3 Not to directly question Stephen's translation, but I don't see the term "using" in the raws.
I see the term たてまえ, which means

face; official stance; public position or attitude (as opposed to private thoughts)

The term "using" is not on that page at all.
#4 If one portion is infusing it then he shows shooting it all out, it's contradicted.

Keep in mind before calling himself a user of the Mighty Blade he described this:
"In Wano too, there is an invisible power that stems from the body and can be infused with the blade." then explains cutting steel in the same language as Koushiro did in chapter 194.

That invisible power does not need to refer to Busoshoku Haki.

Saying "In Wano too" implies that there's a certain trait in Wano unknown from the rest of the world, or it's a different ability.

I tackled a portion of this already

Why It Doesn't Speak About Armament Haki​

The Kanji for Haki is 覇気, which means Ambition and such.

When Zoro says that he puts his will into the blade, it says 意志 for Will, which is completely different from Haki.

Zoro saying that he puts his will into the blade is not saying he puts his Haki into the blade. This is misinterpreted for the Willpower aspect in Haoshoku, yet Haoshoku runs off of Willpower and Busoshoku runs off of Life Force.

And if it was referring to Busoshoku, they wouldn't reference Willpower.

They call it the desire of a swordsman because they're figuratively and potentially literally putting their will into what they cut.

Which is why swordsmen don't just cut through everything even with Haki in their blades.

And regardless of if this is using Haki or not, which I'm skeptical about, the title of "mighty blade" splits that from the other context of Haki.

Not really a support for your argument when...
Yamato and Zoro didn't have conqueror's on their cards

Both of these guys confirmed that they had Conqueror's after the vivre cards were released.
Yamato got a ??? for her devil fruit name after it was released, yet we get the name later. This isn't an argument.

Jack had no haki mentioned on his card but a later release did

The later release having it completely shuts this out.

Kyosirou's vivre card called him Kyosirou in one vivre card then Denjiro in the later one. Are we gonna say that's a mistake?

Luffy lacked observation haki on his pre-timeskip card

This is an argument of opinion on whether he used it or not, but I guess this is fair.

Yet this is only one piece of evidence against it all.

We're given information that Oda supervises and revises every single vivre card to see what works, so we can't cross out information from the vivre cards if it's blatantly not there.

Thorough supervision by Mr. Oda

Kappei: Well then, about the cards inside ... amazing! It's all in color!

Naito: That's right. You can see it in color from the head to the toes. In addition, Mr. Oda supervises each and every one of them, and he adds any missing information when checking.

(↑ Handwritten instruction by Professor Oda)
Kappei: Hey ~~~, Professor Oda is serious. Is there any information about the first release?

Naito: There are quite a lot of things such as blood type and birthplace! I also posted a rough sketch of Mr. Oda's settings. It is an information disclosure that has a very close line (laughs).

Kappei: Is that all supervised by Professor Oda?

Naito: Yes. All the ones scheduled to be published in the future will be supervised by Mr. Oda. (One set of 16 sheets will be published 2 sets a month, for a total of 32 sheets)

 

[Shadyboi0]

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

Luffy lacked observation haki on his pre-timeskip card

Luffy shouldn't have observation haki on his pre timeskip profile. That had something to do with Mihawk not luffy. The panel is on Mihawks eyes and then luffy gets stressed out and can see what would have happened if he attacked. This is literally the only one which has so many anti feats but this isn't a luffy observation haki thread so we can talk about it later if there is something missing

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

Question if Goken isn't Swordsman Desire/will, then what is goken?

 

[KingTempest]

Question if Goken isn't Swordsman Desire/will, then what is goken?

The definition of Goken (豪剣)​

Goken means Strong Sword, yes. But specifically, Goken is a term to qualify physically strong swordsman in One Piece.

 

[Eminiteable]

The website has been approved by Oda and it even has his name at the bottom of the website.

So what if his name is on the website? Greg specifically isn't an ofifical source, his question corner ranges from speculation to his own opinion and in no way is connected to Oda.

Oda's own editor's make comments of their own in One Piece magazine but they shouldn't be used as an official source over Oda.

#1 I'm gonna need to see where it says Stephen Paul revises his translations in the volume releases
#2 What you quoted makes absolutely no sense in that translation. He's going to teach the mighty blade? Wouldn't he need a sword for that? And what would an emission blast have to do with failing to cut paper?
#3 Not to directly question Stephen's translation, but I don't see the term "using" in the raws.
I see the term たてまえ, which means

#1 Check the back of the volume 93 and you'll see Stephan Paul credited as the translator.
#2 Hyogoro is a swordsman, he's describing the ability as he would use it with a sword. He doesn't have a sword.
#3 Not offense to you but I'll take Stephan Paul's translation of the page over yours for now.

That invisible power does not need to refer to Busoshoku Haki.

Saying "In Wano too" implies that there's a certain trait in Wano unknown from the rest of the world, or it's a different ability.

I tackled a portion of this already

Actually no you've completely got this wrong about this, prior to the comment on the invisible power he states "this haki must be a foreign concept" the entire route of the discussion is Hyogoro explaining his understanding of Haki and how you can manage to misinterpret that is beyond me.

Why would Hyogoro mention a completely unrelated power that has nothing to do with the discussion and then claim he will attempt to teach it to Luffy it if it has nothing to do with what he demonstrates

And if it was referring to Busoshoku, they wouldn't reference Willpower.

They call it the desire of a swordsman because they're figuratively and potentially literally putting their will into what they cut.

Which is why swordsmen don't just cut through everything even with Haki in their blades.

And regardless of if this is using Haki or not, which I'm skeptical about, the title of "mighty blade" splits that from the other context of Haki.

Sorry but not using the direct kanji of haki prior to it's introduction nor Zoro's own knowledge of it being haki isn't evidence that it's not haki it's referring to.

Both of these guys confirmed that they had Conqueror's after the vivre cards were released.
Yamato got a ??? for her devil fruit name after it was released, yet we get the name later. This isn't an argument.

Zoro with Asura was conqueror's unless you're claiming that was just armament and Kaido was wrong in his opinion

The later release having it completely shuts this out.

Kyosirou's vivre card called him Kyosirou in one vivre card then Denjiro in the later one. Are we gonna say that's a mistake?

No it doesn't, they had to release a new card to correct incorrect data as well as update older data. Pre-timeskip Zoro's card was made after the pre-timeskip was finished and prior to 939.

Wrong, Kyoshiro's vivre card came out in pack 23, Denjiro's came out in pack 22.

Yet this is only one piece of evidence against it all.

We're given information that Oda supervises and revises every single vivre card to see what works, so we can't cross out information from the vivre cards if it's blatantly not there.

I'm not claiming we do cross out information from the vivre cards, I'm saying you using the fact it's not there doesn't support your argument as countless haki users have had their haki listing missing before, and most likely more in the future will result in the same thing.

Also Oda can give his supervision to things, but he can also change his mind afterwards or purposefully give incorrect data for the sake of the story. For example he changed the dates Shanks became a Yonko and changed the fact that Sabo was dead as the vivre card reported

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

I remember oda saying that he will try to make it so the vivre card doesn't spoil anything.

 

[KingTempest]

So what if his name is on the website? Greg specifically isn't an ofifical source, his question corner ranges from speculation to his own opinion and in no way is connected to Oda.

Oda's own editor's make comments of their own in One Piece magazine but they shouldn't be used as an official source over Oda.

Nobody is saying "over Oda", we're saying that those who originally thought of this on this website are incorrect.

But fine.

#1 Check the back of the volume 93 and you'll see Stephan Paul credited as the translator.
#2 Hyogoro is a swordsman, he's describing the ability as he would use it with a sword. He doesn't have a sword.
#3 Not offense to you but I'll take Stephan Paul's translation of the page over yours for now.

#1 Fine
#2 No, he's showing a completely different ability.

Every time we see this ability pre and post timeskip, it uses contact on whatever they're attacking. I don't know when chapter 939 completely flipped over every single thing for 938 chapters of the manga.

Even with Ushimaru cutting the handcuffs, most likely using the ability, he makes contact with them.

It's a whole different shabang especially when the concept of not making contact isn't showcased.

#3 If a translation is wrong then a translation is wrong
Stephen has his **** ups, if he added something incorrect then he added something incorrect.
He added a phrase that's not there at all.

Actually no you've completely got this wrong about this, prior to the comment on the invisible power he states "this haki must be a foreign concept" the entire route of the discussion is Hyogoro explaining his understanding of Haki and how you can manage to misinterpret that is beyond me.

This is incorrect as hell.

I don't know how you got

the entire route of the discussion is Hyogoro explaining his understanding of Haki

When the discussion is about a completely different power and he flat out doesn't know what Haki us and he's trying to explain another ability.

He says he'll teach Luffy the thing that Luffy talked about the page before. Him trying to teach Luffy some bs that has nothing related to not cutting paper and cutting steel doesn't make sense.

"There's a power that lets me cut steel and not cut paper when I infuse it to a sword. Let me go and do something completely unrelated and instead of infusing it to a sword, I exert it on a Gifter's neck".

Why would Hyogoro mention a completely unrelated power that has nothing to do with the discussion and then claim he will attempt to teach it to Luffy it if it has nothing to do with what he demonstrates

They're related but they have clear differences, I.E. they come from the body but one smacks devil fruits and blocks hits and the other can't cut paper.

But instead, one is infused with the blade and the other is supposed to be shot out apparently.

With your line of thought it sounds as if he's saying "let me teach you the mighty blade", whereas if you go along with the original, it says "let me teach you Haki".

Sorry but not using the direct kanji of haki prior to it's introduction nor Zoro's own knowledge of it being haki isn't evidence that it's not haki it's referring to.

Isn't evidence to you.

Prior to the introduction and after the introduction of Haki, they do not call it Haki. They call it the desire or will of a swordsman, which has not been contradicted or changed in any SBS, any Vivre Card, any Interview, and in any page of the manga.

They call that the desire of a swordsman, even in Old Man Hyo's explanation. Desire ≠ Busoshoku.

Zoro with Asura was conqueror's unless you're claiming that was just armament and Kaido was wrong in his opinion

Kaido was asking a question, which means it wasn't confirmed.
Kaido has no opinion, he was asking a question.

Kaido asked if the Scabbards were using Oden's Haki. He was wrong. He's not infallable.

No it doesn't, they had to release a new card to correct incorrect data as well as update older data. Pre-timeskip Zoro's card was made after the pre-timeskip was finished and prior to 939.

Chapter 939 was produced in April 15th, 2019.
The One Piece index set where they produced the revisions to Oars Jr, a Pre Timeskip Character, happened in December 28th, 2019.

But they can't fix Zoro huh? Ok.

I'm not claiming we do cross out information from the vivre cards, I'm saying you using the fact it's not there doesn't support your argument as countless haki users have had their haki listing missing before, and most likely more in the future will result in the same thing.

There's barely any Haki users that have missing Haki abilities that have canonically shown Haki. None of them showcase Haki until later when he wants to reveal it.

Inu and Neko? They never showed Haki. The moment they did, he gave it to them in the databooks. When he wanted Jack to have it, he gave it.

In fact, he gives people without Haki implications Haki before they even show it.

If Oda can give CP9 Haki then he can give Zoro Haki. Him not doing that says a lot.

Also Oda can give his supervision to things, but he can also change his mind afterwards or purposefully give incorrect data for the sake of the story. For example he changed the dates Shanks became a Yonko and changed the fact that Sabo was dead as the vivre card reported

Those were retcons that have little to do with the effect of the story or to hide the story.

Oda confirmed Rokushiki to be related to Haki over a year prior to showing the scan where Jinbe and Who's Who correlate Rokushiki to Haki, but apparently he's just randomly changing his mind out of nowhere right before chapters?

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

Oda confirmed Rokushiki to be related to Haki over a year prior to showing the scan where Jinbe and Who's Who correlate Rokushiki to Haki, but apparently he's just randomly changing his mind out of nowhere right before chapters?

I think Rokushiki is supposed to be similar to haki, not related.

Can't swordsmans will/desire just be a different Armament Haki that hasn't been explained yet? Or?

 

[KingTempest]

I think Rokushiki is supposed to be similar to haki, not related.

〝覇気〟を礎にした武術も存在

見間色や武装色は地域毎に別の名称で呼ばれたり、 多数の武術に応用されたりしている。また、悪魔の実の力と組み合わせる事で、覇気の力をより強力に昇華させる者もいる。

"心綱"や"六式"の修得は覇気の修業と類似した鍛錬により実現。

There are also martial arts based on Haki.

The Color of Observation and the Color of Arms are called by different names in different regions and are applied in many martial arts. There are also those who combine it with the power of the devil's fruit to sublimate the power of their supremacy even more powerfully.

The mastery of the Mind Rope and the Six Styles is achieved through training similar to the training of the Haki.

Can't swordsmans will/desire just be a different Armament Haki that hasn't been explained yet? Or?

Armament Haki is used to enhance strength and durability.

When that ended up becoming "choosing what you want to cut and what not to cut", I don't know.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

Based on and similar to the training of haki seems like there not supposed to be connected but are similar

The Color of Observation and the Color of Arms are called by different names in different regions and are applied in many martial arts.

Here it talks about different regions... Don't think that's talking about Rokushiki. Is there anymore?

Armament Haki is used to enhance strength and durability.

There is Emission and Ryuo

Here it implies to be haki in someway but something else that he can't teach

But don't have much context

 

[Eminiteable]

#2 No, he's showing a completely different ability.

Every time we see this ability pre and post timeskip, it uses contact on whatever they're attacking. I don't know when chapter 939 completely flipped over every single thing for 938 chapters of the manga.

Even with Ushimaru cutting the handcuffs, most likely using the ability, he makes contact with them.

It's a whole different shabang especially when the concept of not making contact isn't showcased.

He's showcasing it with his bare hand, he normally utilizes it with a sword (this is most likely the reason he says he's not sure he could teach Luffy)

Don't the scabbards and Oden who are described as using Ryūō make contact with things when striking, the same can be said for Luffy in some instances

• Also before commenting that Ryūō is a general term for "Haki/Buso", remember that Kaido who isn't an original native uses that term to describe how the scabbards are harming him, and later when he sensed Zoro use Enma described it as "Haki" instead of Ryūō showing it's not just a general term like mantra.

Ushimaru makes contact, yet also coats his blade in armament hardening? While this isn't direct confirmation it is a point to consider if you're trying to discredit Ushimaru's usage.

#3 If a translation is wrong then a translation is wrong
Stephen has his **** ups, if he added something incorrect then he added something incorrect.
He added a phrase that's not there at all.

He can be wrong, although considering his initial translation on it said "he was called the mighty blade" which he changed in the volume releases I'm more inclined to belive the current is more accurate. Some of those **** ups you mentioned are indeed weekly releases instead of volume releases.

He says he'll teach Luffy the thing that Luffy talked about the page before. Him trying to teach Luffy some bs that has nothing related to not cutting paper and cutting steel doesn't make sense.

"There's a power that lets me cut steel and not cut paper when I infuse it to a sword. Let me go and do something completely unrelated and instead of infusing it to a sword, I exert it on a Gifter's neck".
They're related but they have clear differences, I.E. they come from the body but one smacks devil fruits and blocks hits and the other can't cut paper.

With your line of thought it sounds as if he's saying "let me teach you the mighty blade", whereas if you go along with the original, it says "let me teach you Haki".

You claim they're unrelated but Hyogoro after hearing Luffy's explanation of what he wants to learn describes that, tells him "he doesn't know if he can properly teach it, but take a look for yourself".

This isn't up for debate, he directly describes the abilities as the same, you arguing "but they don't work the same" doesn't matter to the discussion as that's what Hyogoro described.

Yes he's saying "Let me teach you haki" after he just described a swordsman's desire as the power he planned to teach him. Hyogoro initially described it as a power that stems from the body that can be infused into the sword, as far as either Ryuo/haki goes that's the same shit.

.

As for everything else, I'm going to stop debating that for now as I feel the more important debate on this is Hyogoro's dialogue as it's the main point on it being related to Haki and is the most recent and in depth explanation we've been given.

Edit: I'm also going to sleep now, I'll respond to this thread in the morning

 

[KingTempest]

Based on and similar to the training of haki seems like there not supposed to be connected but are similar

They then list Mantra which is directly called Kenbunshoku Haki by Rayleigh

Here it talks about different regions... Don't think that's talking about Rokushiki. Is there anymore?

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

They then list Mantra which is directly called Kenbunshoku Haki by Rayleigh

I know... Which is in a completely different region

I'm confused is jinbe trying to say if he should call his haki, iron body? It looks like jinbe doesn't understand. The things (for me) you have shown kinda supports it being similar then it being haki. Is that the official official translation?

 

[Nierre]

following

 

[KingTempest]

He's showcasing it with his bare hand, he normally utilizes it with a sword (this is most likely the reason he says he's not sure he could teach Luffy)

He went and blasted it out of his hand while Luffy's explanation was "attack without touching", yet the explanation for the paper and steel cutting is "hear the breath and don't cut or cut"

Don't the scabbards and Oden who are described as using Ryūō make contact with things when striking, the same can be said for Luffy in some instances

• Also before commenting that Ryūō is a general term for "Haki/Buso", remember that Kaido who isn't an original native uses that term to describe how the scabbards are harming him, and later when he sensed Zoro use Enma described it as "Haki" instead of Ryūō showing it's not just a general term like mantra.

That doesn't stop it from being a general term, it just means that they pick and choose what they want to call it.

When they explained Enma pulling out Haki they called it Ryuo.

Most of the scabbards don't use emission.

Ushimaru makes contact, yet also coats his blade in armament hardening? While this isn't direct confirmation it is a point to consider if you're trying to discredit Ushimaru's usage.

When Luffy uses emission we know he is and he doesn't make contact.
He only makes contact using the internal destruction.

He can be wrong, although considering his initial translation on it said "he was called the mighty blade" which he changed in the volume releases I'm more inclined to belive the current is more accurate. Some of those **** ups you mentioned are indeed weekly releases instead of volume releases.

Fine

You claim they're unrelated but Hyogoro after hearing Luffy's explanation of what he wants to learn describes that, tells him "he doesn't know if he can properly teach it, but take a look for yourself".

This isn't up for debate, he directly describes the abilities as the same, you arguing "but they don't work the same" doesn't matter to the discussion as that's what Hyogoro described.

Yes he's saying "Let me teach you haki" after he just described a swordsman's desire as the power he planned to teach him. Hyogoro initially described it as a power that stems from the body that can be infused into the sword, as far as either Ryuo/haki goes that's the same shit.

First he says "this 'Haki' must be a foreign concept" which means that he does not know wtf Haki is.

He describes them similar as being powers that come from the body, and says "In Wano too there's an ability like that".
That's like Luffy talking about water, then someone says "there's a beverage here that we drink too". We're gonna say that beverage is water?

Haki is worldwide, yet Hyo specifies this ability to be a Wano only concept, which is only talked about outside of Wano by who? Someone who has origins from Wano.

He does not describe them the same at all.

Hyo says that the Wano power comes from the body and is infused with the blade. Then he tells Luffy to let his Haki flow outwards into the atmosphere. 2 completely different concepts.
Hyo says the Wano power cuts according to the desire of a swordsman, while infusing Haki into swords was originally introduced for making blades invulnerable and to cut through stronger objects.

You can not say that them not working the same doesn't matter to the discussion, then say they're the same ability. That's directly contradicting the claim that they're the same.

They are not explained the same. They are blatantly explained to be different things that have similarities.

As for everything else, I'm going to stop debating that for now as I feel the more important debate on this is Hyogoro's dialogue as it's the main point on it being related to Haki and is the most recent and in depth explanation we've been given.

They're all equally important.

One references physical strength being a main attribute of Goken while BOAT Cutting is cutting via desire and will.

 

[KingTempest]

I know... Which is in a completely different region

Completely different region, same exact ability

I'm confused is jinbe trying to say if he should call his haki, iron body? It looks like jinbe doesn't understand. The things (for me) you have shown kinda supports it being similar then it being haki. Is that the official official translation?

He uses Armament Haki and says "so should I call this Iron Body?" Iron Body = Tekkai, and Jinbe compares them and says "should I call this Tekkai?"

And yes, it's the official official translation.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

He uses Armament Haki and says "so should I call this Iron Body?" Iron Body = Tekkai, and Jinbe compares them and says "should I call this Tekkai?"

And yes, it's the official official translation.

Yee but couldn't that also mean because haki act similarly to Iron Body?

 

[KingTempest]

Yee but couldn't that also mean because haki acts like Iron Body?

It could, could also mean that they have similar ties. Both are supported

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

Completely different region, same exact ability

? I know mantra is observation haki but

The Color of Observation and the Color of Arms are called by different names in different regions and are applied in many martial arts. There are also those who combine it with the power of the devil's fruit to sublimate the power of their supremacy even more powerfully.

This doesn't really seem to correlate with Rokushiki... There is geppo, soru, Kami-e and more which has nothing to do with haki which support also Rokushiki not being haki but

I'll translate some scans to get more info but nevermind (the nevermind (I think) has nothing to do with the translating)
I'm too tired

 

[Eminiteable]

"hear the breath and don't cut or cut"

That's not the explanation that Hyogoro gave in that moment though was it, it was a power that comes from the body that can be imbued in the sword.

That doesn't stop it from being a general term, it just means that they pick and choose what they want to call it.

When they explained Enma pulling out Haki they called it Ryuo.

Most of the scabbards don't use emission.

He picks and choses what to call it in his internal monologue? When Ryuo's name specifically translates to flowing sakura which is the method of how emission works.

It could be Rryuo, but that isn't the point as what Kaido sensed was haki which is why he said it as such, when he got stabbed by the Scabbards he believed it to be their Ryuo because like with Oden's cut off explanation the secret to Oden Nitoryu is Ryuo.

When Luffy uses emission we know he is and he doesn't make contact.
He only makes contact using the internal destruction.

The issue is once again you're comparing emission without a sword and with a sword. Hyogoro ays this power is something you imbue into the sword.

Emission is pushing outwards, Hyogoro's description of Ryuo with a blade was imbueing it into the sword to all it to perform the Swordsman's desire.

First he says "this 'Haki' must be a foreign concept" which means that he does not know wtf Haki is.

He describes them similar as being powers that come from the body, and says "In Wano too there's an ability like that".
That's like Luffy talking about water, then someone says "there's a beverage here that we drink too". We're gonna say that beverage is water?

Haki is worldwide, yet Hyo specifies this ability to be a Wano only concept, which is only talked about outside of Wano by who? Someone who has origins from Wano.

He does not describe them the same at all.

Yeah he doesn't which is why he likens haki to be what he knows and just demonstrated as Ryuo. How is this going over your head?

This is a weird argument, he's trying to tell Luffy that just like you're describing there exists a power that allows them to do that.

He's not saying oh yeah we have a power like that as well but it's wano exclusive, you pulled wano exclusive out of your ass. It's him saying just like Luffy describes in wano they too have this power. But at this time it wasn't named and attributed to Armament haki until we see it dispalyed.

His literal initial description is what he's trying to teach Luffy. Why are you ignoring that?

Hyo says that the Wano power comes from the body and is infused with the blade. Then he tells Luffy to let his Haki flow outwards into the atmosphere. 2 completely different concepts.
Hyo says the Wano power cuts according to the desire of a swordsman, while infusing Haki into swords was originally introduced for making blades invulnerable and to cut through stronger objects.

You can not say that them not working the same doesn't matter to the discussion, then say they're the same ability. That's directly contradicting the claim that they're the same.

They are not explained the same. They are blatantl

The point of emission is to let your haki flow outside your body, that is what Luffy was failing at. The second part of what Hyogoro describes is imbueing into a sword which Luffy never attained.

I think the issue as I've said is the fact that one is done with a sword and one is done without, that's the distinction as there's nothing to imbue with that haki that he lets flow out so he just performed an emission blast.

You can't just create a headcanon that Hyogoro was talking about a completely unrelated power even after he said he would try teach it and demonstrate it, that's not going to work.

 

[KingTempest]

Yeah this is going nowhere