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One Piece High 7-A Revision
- Thread starter Damage3245
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Okay, then the potentially higher will be removed in the final draft before changes. I only included it since I knew there were divided opinions on the matter.
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Why did you remove the higher from Mihawk in your sandbox?
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Me or Damage? If you mean me, I don't think there's anything to justify Mihawk being "higher" when his rivalry with Shanks ended after Shanks lost his arm... not to mention Shanks based in East Blue roughly 11 years before the Paramount war (He lost his arm 1 year after, and Shanks became a Yonko about... 4 years after losing his arm?)
Considering how power levels of a character (look at Luffy) can increase drastically in just a couple years, there's no reason to assume Mihawk is by any means Yonko Shanks' equal since he fought him 5+ years before Shanks even became one, especially since Mihawk was shown going toe-to-toe with Vista, and his slash was stopped by Jozu. Whether he held back or not hardly matters.
Considering how power levels of a character (look at Luffy) can increase drastically in just a couple years, there's no reason to assume Mihawk is by any means Yonko Shanks' equal since he fought him 5+ years before Shanks even became one, especially since Mihawk was shown going toe-to-toe with Vista, and his slash was stopped by Jozu. Whether he held back or not hardly matters.
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The line of thought is flawed; why are Mihawk's and Shanks' growth rates treated as different after Shanks lost him arm? They're both around the same age, both were rivals, but, after shanks lost his arm Mihawk lost interest in fighting shanks. Mihawk has met with Shanks in the modern day and still doesn't see Shanks worthy of fighting, again a High 7-A doesn't see a 6-B worthy of fighting (he was willing to slash down Whitebeard even tho he was a 6-B)
Jozu's diamond form can very easily be paralleled with Mr 1's fruit considering the context diamond is treated in, and just like with Mr 1 he initially took the slash from Mihawk, the Swordsman at the top level only cut what they intend cut; Mihawk was intending to cut Whitebeard not Diamond. Either way Jozu isn't an anti feat as his diamond has yet to be cut/broken by anyone in the series. Vista is interesting, but then again we don't scale Mihawk to east blue tier for "going toe-to-toe" against Zoro, Mihawk's own words were he wouldn't use a cannon to hunt down a rabbit, this speaks for Mihawk's character they he doesn't just overwhelm his opponent's with his superior destructive power.
This Shanks left Mihawk in the dust narrative is purely based on the idea that being a Yonko means you're stronger than any over pirate before and after, despite the fact that is based on nothing.
Jozu's diamond form can very easily be paralleled with Mr 1's fruit considering the context diamond is treated in, and just like with Mr 1 he initially took the slash from Mihawk, the Swordsman at the top level only cut what they intend cut; Mihawk was intending to cut Whitebeard not Diamond. Either way Jozu isn't an anti feat as his diamond has yet to be cut/broken by anyone in the series. Vista is interesting, but then again we don't scale Mihawk to east blue tier for "going toe-to-toe" against Zoro, Mihawk's own words were he wouldn't use a cannon to hunt down a rabbit, this speaks for Mihawk's character they he doesn't just overwhelm his opponent's with his superior destructive power.
This Shanks left Mihawk in the dust narrative is purely based on the idea that being a Yonko means you're stronger than any over pirate before and after, despite the fact that is based on nothing.
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> again a High 7-A doesn't see a 6-B worthy of fighting (he was willing to slash down Whitebeard even tho he was a 6-B)
Said character might not be 6-B after the revisions are done.
Said character might not be 6-B after the revisions are done.
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True it's just to try get an idea of the thought process people are making, many believe Mihawk is just too afraid to fight "Yonko" level people because he got left in the dust, this isn't the case.
Other things brought up that i didn't cover properly: "Considering how power levels of characters can increase drastically" Whitebeard notes that the several duals that Shanks and Mihawk were legendary, now... during this time Whitebeard would have been in his prime and Whitebeard held himself with arrogance against even the admirals, if both Mihawk and Shanks how many years ago were able to consistently produce duals that Prime Whitebeard considered legendary, are we really going to assume that characters weaker than Yonko Commanders were capable of this? Doesn't seem likely considering Luffy beating Katakuri and Cracker weren't enough to make people consider him a Yonko, they were treated as secondary feats in comparison to ruining Big Mom's wedding.
Whitebeard himself is both a Yonko yet also holds the title of "strongest man in the world", yet in nearly all of Whitebeard's introductions he's referred to as that title over Yonko, showing it holds more power than the later, for good reason as Garp refers to the yonko as "the four greatest pirates" not strongest, we've been in the story long enough now to know that Yonko isn't a power level title, it requires power to do so but more so requires fame, teritory and manpower (this is proven by the fact Big Mom and Kaido have devoted the majority of their time to building up manpower and not their own individual strength) but the public deemed Luffy a yonko, yet, he was one shot by another yonko, kaido.
Considering all that, Mihawk holds the title of "Strongest swordfight in the world" a very similar title to whitebeard, yet Shanks doesn't despite being defined as a swordfighter in nearly every instance of his showing,
Other things brought up that i didn't cover properly: "Considering how power levels of characters can increase drastically" Whitebeard notes that the several duals that Shanks and Mihawk were legendary, now... during this time Whitebeard would have been in his prime and Whitebeard held himself with arrogance against even the admirals, if both Mihawk and Shanks how many years ago were able to consistently produce duals that Prime Whitebeard considered legendary, are we really going to assume that characters weaker than Yonko Commanders were capable of this? Doesn't seem likely considering Luffy beating Katakuri and Cracker weren't enough to make people consider him a Yonko, they were treated as secondary feats in comparison to ruining Big Mom's wedding.
Whitebeard himself is both a Yonko yet also holds the title of "strongest man in the world", yet in nearly all of Whitebeard's introductions he's referred to as that title over Yonko, showing it holds more power than the later, for good reason as Garp refers to the yonko as "the four greatest pirates" not strongest, we've been in the story long enough now to know that Yonko isn't a power level title, it requires power to do so but more so requires fame, teritory and manpower (this is proven by the fact Big Mom and Kaido have devoted the majority of their time to building up manpower and not their own individual strength) but the public deemed Luffy a yonko, yet, he was one shot by another yonko, kaido.
Considering all that, Mihawk holds the title of "Strongest swordfight in the world" a very similar title to whitebeard, yet Shanks doesn't despite being defined as a swordfighter in nearly every instance of his showing,
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To be completely honest, we don't know enough about Mihawk and Shanks in regards to their back-story. We should not be jumping to assumptions based on the fact that they were once rivals. We don't know what started it, and the only implication of their rivalry ending is Mihawk being disinterested in fighting a man with one arm--though this seems oddly specific and may hide many things regarding their history.
All we know is that Mihawk stopped fighting Shanks LONG before the latter became a Yonko. We also don't know how powerful Mihawk really is.
We are not scaling Mihawk to someone who is a Yonko just because he happened to be his rival up until half a decade before the latter attained that title.
If Mihawk is later proven to be yonko-tier, cool. Edited. As of right now, there is basically nothing but theories to suggest he's even close to that regard.
All we know is that Mihawk stopped fighting Shanks LONG before the latter became a Yonko. We also don't know how powerful Mihawk really is.
We are not scaling Mihawk to someone who is a Yonko just because he happened to be his rival up until half a decade before the latter attained that title.
If Mihawk is later proven to be yonko-tier, cool. Edited. As of right now, there is basically nothing but theories to suggest he's even close to that regard.
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This is based on the false idea that Shanks got strong enough to be considered a Yonko. He very well could be the same strength as when he faced Mihawk, but, what brought him to Yonko status was he rose in notoriety, or he gained more land or more manpower.
We know Mihawk is "Strongest Swordfighter in the world" and we know Shanks isn't despite being compared to Mihawk in the Zoro Novel (and we know a character can have a world's strongest title and be a yonko as is the case with both Whitebeard and Kaido). And in the ace novel we know that Shanks got the majority of his fame from his duals with Mihawk.
The "Shanks and Mihawk haven't fought in years" argument ignores the reason why they haven't fought, Mihawk to this day can still stroll up to shanks (and if he wanted) fight shanks, yet, he doesn't as he doesn't see him as a worthy challenge.
The main argument is based on the idea that being a Yonko means he's stronger, again, i'd like someone to prove that because there is no evidence. Luffy is a yonko right now yet it wasn't based on him getting stronger, you can all say "well he's not a reaaaal yonko", but then what defines a Yonko, who decides? So far it seems to be the public's view who is considered a Yonko just like the public viewed who were Supernova, it wasn't the marines who created that term as they just wen't along with it.
We know both Mihawk and Shanks fought each other several times in the past, we know whitebeard considers these duals as "legendary", we know in the story and out of it that Mihawk is the "World's strongest swordsman", not best, not greatest not most skilled with a sword, Strongest. we know from his Vivre Card that; "He looks forward to the day that a swordmaster will emerge to surpass even his rival "Red-Hair" Shanks" and we know in the modern day that Mihawk consider's Shanks a "One arm has been". We know from Mihawk's vivre card that he "he trained relentlessly for many years challenging more and more powerful foes, until he had no more worthy challengers". We know "He is the World's strongest Swordsman in Name and actuality" and "he sits at the top as the strongest of all swordsman"
" As of right now, there is basically nothing but theories to suggest he's even close to that regard." Seems like the opposite.
We know Mihawk is "Strongest Swordfighter in the world" and we know Shanks isn't despite being compared to Mihawk in the Zoro Novel (and we know a character can have a world's strongest title and be a yonko as is the case with both Whitebeard and Kaido). And in the ace novel we know that Shanks got the majority of his fame from his duals with Mihawk.
The "Shanks and Mihawk haven't fought in years" argument ignores the reason why they haven't fought, Mihawk to this day can still stroll up to shanks (and if he wanted) fight shanks, yet, he doesn't as he doesn't see him as a worthy challenge.
The main argument is based on the idea that being a Yonko means he's stronger, again, i'd like someone to prove that because there is no evidence. Luffy is a yonko right now yet it wasn't based on him getting stronger, you can all say "well he's not a reaaaal yonko", but then what defines a Yonko, who decides? So far it seems to be the public's view who is considered a Yonko just like the public viewed who were Supernova, it wasn't the marines who created that term as they just wen't along with it.
We know both Mihawk and Shanks fought each other several times in the past, we know whitebeard considers these duals as "legendary", we know in the story and out of it that Mihawk is the "World's strongest swordsman", not best, not greatest not most skilled with a sword, Strongest. we know from his Vivre Card that; "He looks forward to the day that a swordmaster will emerge to surpass even his rival "Red-Hair" Shanks" and we know in the modern day that Mihawk consider's Shanks a "One arm has been". We know from Mihawk's vivre card that he "he trained relentlessly for many years challenging more and more powerful foes, until he had no more worthy challengers". We know "He is the World's strongest Swordsman in Name and actuality" and "he sits at the top as the strongest of all swordsman"
" As of right now, there is basically nothing but theories to suggest he's even close to that regard." Seems like the opposite.
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Okay, i've updated the blog/sandbox with all the listed characters that I saw on Damage's sandbox, and changed them according to the currently proposed changes.
I removed the "higher" from Admirals/Rayleigh, and added a "far higher" to Mihawk for the above reasons since it should be fine.
Only thing that might need discussed is Shiliew's tier. I thought about adding a "possibly 7-A" since he should at least be comparable to Burgess.
Thoughts?
I removed the "higher" from Admirals/Rayleigh, and added a "far higher" to Mihawk for the above reasons since it should be fine.
Only thing that might need discussed is Shiliew's tier. I thought about adding a "possibly 7-A" since he should at least be comparable to Burgess.
Thoughts?
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I think a "Likely higher" would be better for Shiliew's rating. I'll look over the rest soon.
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@Damage - Likely higher as in what's currently there? Or "At least Low 7-B, Possibly 7-A, Likely higher" after my suggested edits?
Also, You may notice Tsuru's was incomplete. I forgot to do it, but just edited it now.
Also, You may notice Tsuru's was incomplete. I forgot to do it, but just edited it now.
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As in what's currently there, yeah.
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Should Zoro's Wano key include a Possibly Rel+ speed rating considering he noticed and deflected a strike from Kawamatsu?
(I plan to put Sanji and Zoro in the sand-box because I believe Sanji should lose his Whole-cake Key and Zoro may have that one speed adjustment)
(I plan to put Sanji and Zoro in the sand-box because I believe Sanji should lose his Whole-cake Key and Zoro may have that one speed adjustment)
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I don't think we should touch the speed ratings for now. There'll have to be discussions about sorting them out and removing any questionable scaling.
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I included Speed in this sandbox because some of the descriptions on the profiles are a little spotty (Sanji > Vergo?) or circular (The Kizaru and Rayleigh mess) just like how the current AP/Dura scalings are.
But we can hold off on it until it's necessary to change it since this topic talks about the tier changes.
But we can hold off on it until it's necessary to change it since this topic talks about the tier changes.
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Thank you.
Regarding Luffy's 3rd key, I think we can put that as "Post-Wano Training".
Regarding Luffy's 3rd key, I think we can put that as "Post-Wano Training".
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@Damage - Yeah, Siege of Onigashima is only a place-holder name. But I was thinking "Post-Udon Prison Training", but will use "Post-Wano Training" if it is better.
I added Sanji, and a slight correction for Oven has been added.
I added Sanji, and a slight correction for Oven has been added.
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@Dr. Fix; it isn't a "post-raid" key, it is his key for after his training in Udon Prison.
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Also regarding Tsu I will repeat what I told Damage weeks ago.
We don't have enough evidence to put her that high. Overlooking that I do not think even Duffy should be this high for the moment, we do not know how powerful he was 12 years ago. That is a lot of time for him to get stronger and her weaker. Further there are no specifics to her contributions at MF. It is safer to scale her to VAs 7-A then all the way to high tiers for the moment.
EDIT SO I DON"T POST A THIRD TIME.:
I just noticed a mistake regarding durability. Duffy bypasses "At least 7-A+" and jumps straight to high 7-A. On the reverse of that Cracker only has high 7-A attack but not durability.
We don't have enough evidence to put her that high. Overlooking that I do not think even Duffy should be this high for the moment, we do not know how powerful he was 12 years ago. That is a lot of time for him to get stronger and her weaker. Further there are no specifics to her contributions at MF. It is safer to scale her to VAs 7-A then all the way to high tiers for the moment.
EDIT SO I DON"T POST A THIRD TIME.:
I just noticed a mistake regarding durability. Duffy bypasses "At least 7-A+" and jumps straight to high 7-A. On the reverse of that Cracker only has high 7-A attack but not durability.
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I think that's a valid point.
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@Fix - The "Siege of Onigashima" key was changed to "Post-Udon Prison Training", and considering this is where Luffy develops his Haki and appears to have developed on his Gear 4th, it's quite a necessary key.
I'm fine with downgrading Tsuru, though the same could be said for Oden (this isn't a 6-B thread, so I don't think I should press the matter, so I'll leave it at that). I'll apply the edits to the Sand-box
Edit (Saw your Doffy and Cracker mention):
I'm fine with downgrading Tsuru, though the same could be said for Oden (this isn't a 6-B thread, so I don't think I should press the matter, so I'll leave it at that). I'll apply the edits to the Sand-box
Edit (Saw your Doffy and Cracker mention):
- Cracker doesn't have anything to scale to High 7-A durability if we've only see him take one hit from Gear 4th (which resulted in his KO).
- I'll fix Doflamingo's.
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I changed it.
Also, I guess since Tsuru was also downgraded and we don't know if Jack fought Sengoku, should Jack lose the "+" since it's confirmed at least Tsuru and Issho engaged him?
Also, I guess since Tsuru was also downgraded and we don't know if Jack fought Sengoku, should Jack lose the "+" since it's confirmed at least Tsuru and Issho engaged him?
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Considering how we have confirmation that Paramecia type Devil Fruits tax the user's stamina upon use, should it be noted that Doflamingo could handle fighting Gear 2nd/3rd Luffy while also closing his Bird-Cage (and later using threads inside his body to "heal" himself) as a supporting statement for his 7-A+ rating?
I didn't previously buy into this, but considering how many Paramecia show such stamina weaknesses (particularly producers like Doflamingo, Law and Bartolomeo), it seems logical.
I didn't previously buy into this, but considering how many Paramecia show such stamina weaknesses (particularly producers like Doflamingo, Law and Bartolomeo), it seems logical.
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Shouldn't we just mention that in his Stamina section and not his AP section?
And as far as I'm aware only two Paramecia Devil Fruit users have been confirmed to use up their stamina in order to use their devil fruit.
Trafalgar Law and Mansherry.
And as far as I'm aware only two Paramecia Devil Fruit users have been confirmed to use up their stamina in order to use their devil fruit.
Trafalgar Law and Mansherry.
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DemonGodMitchAubin said:
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@Mitch; we know, but there's not a lot of relevant characters that this would apply to.
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But if it applies to anyone, they should get it, right?
Even if it was only one character
Even if it was only one character
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Possibly. Generally I'm not a fan of upscaling unless we have to.
It always seems so arbitrary to me.
It always seems so arbitrary to me.
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I think it's usually very nice, even if it's a very minor change, aesthetically it just differentiates tiers of power which I think is good
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Zoro and co should scale to 7-A+ if that's the case but I'll save anything notable i have to say due to the forum move.
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@Damage - There are limits to almost every Paramecia type (Bartolomeo, Law, Mansherry, to some extent Luffy, and so on... but each in different regards)
I'm sure when Doflamingo began enclosing the cage, he was expending some of his power, then he sped it up and expended even more.
Sure it'd probably be mentioned in stamina though. Was just looking for other opinions.
@Fix - The logic of not giving Doflamingo High 7-A is pretty shifty considering there's nothing to really disprove he scales from his fight against Bound-Man.
You told me previously to "show Doflamingo doing something to Luffy during their 20+ minute fight", but that's a problem when we are given almost no context on their fight.
Doflamingo gets Possibly High 7-A due to the fact he actually took hits (Durability) and we see that he was pressuring Bound-Man Luffy (Possibly AP) and stopped his Double Culveri (Durability and possible AP since he fully stopped the attack) with his threads then proceeded to have an off-panel engagement lasting 20 minutes + however long it took for Riku to begin and end his speech before we saw the "conclusion".
Inb4 bringing up the Athlete kick being ineffective, there's multiple factors to discredit this including: Haki, Rubber resisting blunt force, and Doflamingo being weakened physically earlier in the fight (reinforced by Luffy).
In regards to the fight where Doflamingo has Awakened his DF, there's 2 panels before we get the final page spreads of Luffy closing in and landing a Leo Bazooka.
We don't even get to see the fight. But this should not discredit Doflamingo, and since he lasted as long as he did and we know he could take the hits and we actually SEE him pressuring Luffy into evasion, it's more reasonable to give him the High 7-A rating instead of deleting it all together.
And as much as I'd love to try and point out what appear to be "fresh" injuries Luffy appears to have by the end of that engagement, considering Oda's track record for "disappearing injuries", that would not be a valid argument since it could be a previous injury anyways.
I'm sure when Doflamingo began enclosing the cage, he was expending some of his power, then he sped it up and expended even more.
Sure it'd probably be mentioned in stamina though. Was just looking for other opinions.
@Fix - The logic of not giving Doflamingo High 7-A is pretty shifty considering there's nothing to really disprove he scales from his fight against Bound-Man.
You told me previously to "show Doflamingo doing something to Luffy during their 20+ minute fight", but that's a problem when we are given almost no context on their fight.
Doflamingo gets Possibly High 7-A due to the fact he actually took hits (Durability) and we see that he was pressuring Bound-Man Luffy (Possibly AP) and stopped his Double Culveri (Durability and possible AP since he fully stopped the attack) with his threads then proceeded to have an off-panel engagement lasting 20 minutes + however long it took for Riku to begin and end his speech before we saw the "conclusion".
Inb4 bringing up the Athlete kick being ineffective, there's multiple factors to discredit this including: Haki, Rubber resisting blunt force, and Doflamingo being weakened physically earlier in the fight (reinforced by Luffy).
In regards to the fight where Doflamingo has Awakened his DF, there's 2 panels before we get the final page spreads of Luffy closing in and landing a Leo Bazooka.
We don't even get to see the fight. But this should not discredit Doflamingo, and since he lasted as long as he did and we know he could take the hits and we actually SEE him pressuring Luffy into evasion, it's more reasonable to give him the High 7-A rating instead of deleting it all together.
And as much as I'd love to try and point out what appear to be "fresh" injuries Luffy appears to have by the end of that engagement, considering Oda's track record for "disappearing injuries", that would not be a valid argument since it could be a previous injury anyways.
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Fully stopping the Double Culverin would just be durability feat I believe, not AP.
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It is less about the logic of "not giving" and more about the logic of "giving". Yea the off panel is a problem, for proof. I don't have to tell someone as smart as you about burden of proof so I will not.
It is one thing to give him durability that high, its another to give him AP that high. Whatever the excuse may be (and I know you can write a wall of text for itso please do not bother) Duffy should still have to prove he is there, not suggest why he is not there.
I don't know why you post a panel of Duffy "stopping" one of Luffy's attacks when Luffy went on to smash through with a different attack. It just makes the first one look weak.
Keep in mind if we lower the standards that much we have to give high 7-A to base Luffy for blocking tanking multiple hits. We also have to give it to Law for same reasons. Plus anytime either got a clean hit on Duffy it did at least some damage which represents a circle.
High 7-A Luffy (Gear 4)=Duffy=Base Luffy<<<High 7-A+ Luffy (Gear 4)=Duffy=Base luffy<<<6-C Luffy (Gear 4) etc.
I think @DemonGod gave us a compromise for Duffy to have 7-A+. This way he still scales above Luffy and below Gear 4 to extents where neither battle is a stomp.
P:S What value are we scaling Luffy to anyway. @Damage we neve figured that number out.
It is one thing to give him durability that high, its another to give him AP that high. Whatever the excuse may be (and I know you can write a wall of text for itso please do not bother) Duffy should still have to prove he is there, not suggest why he is not there.
I don't know why you post a panel of Duffy "stopping" one of Luffy's attacks when Luffy went on to smash through with a different attack. It just makes the first one look weak.
Keep in mind if we lower the standards that much we have to give high 7-A to base Luffy for blocking tanking multiple hits. We also have to give it to Law for same reasons. Plus anytime either got a clean hit on Duffy it did at least some damage which represents a circle.
High 7-A Luffy (Gear 4)=Duffy=Base Luffy<<<High 7-A+ Luffy (Gear 4)=Duffy=Base luffy<<<6-C Luffy (Gear 4) etc.
I think @DemonGod gave us a compromise for Duffy to have 7-A+. This way he still scales above Luffy and below Gear 4 to extents where neither battle is a stomp.
P:S What value are we scaling Luffy to anyway. @Damage we neve figured that number out.
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1) If I can write a wall of text about it I will. But the bottom line is if Doflamingo was pressuring Luffy on-panel and their engagement was obviously not a favorable affair for Luffy, then he's obviously a threat to Luffy's durability.Dr.Fix said:
2) He stopped a Double Culverin. They then have an off-panel fight before we see Luffy manage to push through his threads. You make it seem like Luffy was not trying to break Doflamingo's defense when there's no evidence to support such an assumption.
3) Not a circle at all. The chain is actually quite clear-cut, or more specifically, the chainS:
- Chain 1 (7-A+): Doflamingo > G3 Luffy = Fujitora
- Chain 2 (Poss High 7-A): Bound Man Luffy (3x G2/3 Luffy) -> Doflamingo for fighting him off-panel and being shown taking hits and blocking his attacks, and also pressuring him.
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