One Piece High 7-A Revision

[Dr.Fix]

The one scan doesn't show Duffy's foot to say he wasn't using armament. I'm not even sure if Black has to be seen given lower levels of armament. That is a whole other discussion about whetehr or not Haki is needed to bypass Rubber Fruit and how passive Haki's effects are. A discussion which frankly would take us way off topic so I rather agree to disagree.

I grow tired of the "weakened" argument. They're both weakened and I have acknowledged many times over. Burden of Proof is up to you to show Duffy is as high as you want him to be when healthy. It does NOT mean making excuses for why he is NOT there.

Let me also remind you that again I am not saying Duffy is not stornger than Luffy. I'm not even saying he is weaker than Gear 4 to an insane degree. I am saying Gear 4>Duffy>Luffy. Therefore @Demon's suggestion of 7-A+ (Even though there is no such calc) is a compromise for Duffy who fits between 7-A as a low ball (scaling from Law, Sanji, Luffy, etc) and high 7-A Highball (Gear 4).

You literally just showcased Luffy hurting Duffy without even using Gear 4. You also just linked Duffy needing to block to avoid this. Again you blame his injury but that has healed and the strings's tensile strength would even be bolstering Duffy's defense. Please stop relying on that as a crunch.

Also that is not an attack on his arms. It looks like it is hittign the some of the bullets Duffy' sends out. The others getting taken out by Cavendish who also destroys his net (I'm pretty sure Luffy scales above this anyway but I'm not sure).

Furthermore that isn't a push back. That doesn't even make sense by the laws of physics. Luffy is Luffy backing up.

Again let's look at perspective.

Law blocks Duffy's attacks and moves a couple feet if at all.

Duffy Blocks Luffy's attacks and doesn't move much either.

Duffy blocks Gear 4 and gets sent flying through Dressrosa (I'm guessing kilometres from an eyeball, but suffice to say it is more than the above examples of a block).

Luffy hits Duffy while using Armament and he bleeds

Bellamy hits Luffy while uisng armament and he bleeds.

Duffy hits Gear 4 while using armament and does nothing.

I might remind you as well that Duffy was damaged each and every time Gear 4 hit

Was not 1-KO'd mind you. But that has only happened with Kaido VS Luffy and by no means do I think there is a 10,000 times difference. If you want to say he got back up I remind you Luffy did he same time and time again before Gear 4.


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Having said all that this debate is meaningless until @Damage responds with a value for Luffy because all we have is <than 420 Mgeatons/1.26 giagtons.

 

[Damage3245]

@Dr. Fix; why doesn't that value work for you? Do you have an alternative proposal?

 

[CinCameron20]

@Fix - Alright, I'm done trying to get sense through to you. You're just deflecting the argument. That's pretty ridiculous for you to always assume you win the argument because your opinion trumps all when, in fact, it's actually a bunch of made-up nonsense, and you're continuously diverting away from the evidence brought to the table by just said "false" when it suits your needs.

No point arguing with a literal wall.

Can't admit that you're wrong, so you try to avoid the topic all together. Typical.

Like I said, I would rather get some staff input then have you try to make false claims against the evidence that is right in front of you. It's childish.

@Damage - There is nothing wrong with the value. He's wrong. Let's move on, or else he's going to plateau the revisions... for the 5th time now.

 

[Dr.Fix]

@Cin I take offense to that as I try and be respectful and stick to facts. Please do not make this personal by attacking my character.

@Damage I mentioned before I prefer he just scales fully to Issho. Failing that we use the same model used before (Which yielded 1.3-1.5 gigatons instead of 1.9) but with the lower values (420 instead of 1.9). Beyond that I do not know how we would go about it. I feel such an indeterminite value will cause problems, particularly since it is being used as a base for a multiplier and that product is baseline in another tier. If the staff (You) think this is alright as is than that's fine by me.

 

[The_Popular_Loser]

I'm just here for the Mihawk statements and feats. A lot of people blame Mihawk not cutting through certain things due to the "Breath of all things" and I'm just here to disprove that.

Just a quick reminder the breath of all things says you can cut only what you want to cut. So theorists say if you do not mean to cut it you will not cut through it.

First I will disprove the Mr. 1 example. Mr. 1 blocked Mihawk first attack and people say Mr. 1 couldn't do anything against the second attack.

This is literally because Mr. 1 was not trying to block. He actually tried to out slice/slash mihawk.

Proof:


Mr. 1 tried to clash with him and lost. That is why he received damage. He did not try to deflect.

Here is Mihawk cutting into several Boulders and Ice Structures While aiming at luffy and asking for Shanks forgiveness because he has to kill/harm Luffy.






If the breath of all things applied Mihawk would not have cut into all these inanimate objects when aiming for different characters. He only damaged Mr. 1 when Mr. 1 tried to clash with him. There is no instance in the entirety of the Marineford War where someone was blocking and Mihawk sliced through them.

This entire Breath of All Thing argument arose because mihawk fanboys couldn't accept Shanks had better portrayal.

If this isn't enough Mihawk declined to spar with Shanks in two separate instances (marineford and the revealing of luffys bounty.)

Mihawk only scales to Pre-Pre-Timeskip Non Yonko Shanks until proven otherwise.

 

[CinCameron20]

@Popular - (we don't use the anime here, but considering this topic is actually in canon... it's okay... just that Mr. 1 never actually tried to clash with Mihawk. He was still blocking)

Mihawk's actually confirmed to be a user of Kenbunshoku and Busoshoku Haki. He trained Zoro to use both, and he is stated to use them in the databooks.

I also agree that scaling to current Shanks is incredibly wrong, but databooks and lore indicate he's the strongest swordsman not only in name, but in truth, and he awaits a challenger that surpasses Shanks, hence why his scaling in my sandbox only has it as a "potentially far higher" rating while he's still scaling to 7-A+ to High 7-A via fighting people like Vista.

 

[CinCameron20]

Also, if you're referring to Mihawk using "Goken", it doesn't say that anywhere, just that he's advanced in using Haki as he taught Zoro to use it and is very knowledgeable about it.

 

[The_Popular_Loser]

I never mentioned Goken nor any type of Haki. I only pointed out inconsistencies of the breath of all things argument and how it most likely didn't apply at marineford.

 

[CinCameron20]

Who said anything about the Breath of All Things regarding Mihawk? It's not on his profile anywhere.

You're the first person to bring it up in this thread.

 

[Damage3245]

Yeah, I was pretty confused by that post. It doesn't seem to belong on this thread.

 

[CinCameron20]

Anyways, I suspect the descriptions for each character is fine on the sand-box due to no current objections, so now I'll just wait on input regarding Doflamingo's tier position since it's important due to it affecting several character positions.

 

[Damage3245]

I think that the speed ratings in the sandbox should be replaced with Striking Strength ratings since they're going to be affected by these revisions.

Also, if Fujitora isn't scaling to 7-A+, shouldn't Jack also not be scaling to that?

 

[Dr.Fix]

Jack scales to SenGoku.

 

[Dr.Fix]

Anyways, I suspect the descriptions for each character is fine on the sand-box due to no current objections, so now I'll just wait on input regarding Doflamingo's tier position since it's important due to it affecting several character positions.

Your sandbox comes up empty.

 

[Damage3245]

@Dr. Fix; not all sandboxes are just called sandbox. Cin's can be found here.

And Jack doesn't scale solely to Sengoku though. I don't think it is even confirmed that they fought.

 

[Dr.Fix]

1) That's interesting . . . Thanks for the link

2) As I understand it he fought all three. It was off panel though so like Kuzan VS Akainu we don't know specifics and I could be wrong about that.

 

[Dr.Fix]

I do not think Kizaru needs to be listed as comparable to red & blue. Not much to substantiate that and his feats against Marco & Ray put him in the same place without that add in.

Similarly I'm not sure about the reasoning for Vista. I rather he scaled to Mihawk (rather than the other way around) and Mihawk scales to Ray & Kizaru but tbh I'm not sure how far to take that whole WSS title.

 

[CinCameron20]

Jack is confirmed to have fought both Fujitora and Tsuru. Sengoku is unknown--but it would be incredibly strange for him to just be on stand-by if Jack sunk half of their ships and was a serious threat at the time. But I was also thinking about removing the "+" for that reason since Fuji/Tsuru are both only going to be "At least 7-A" at this point.

@Fix - The WSS title for Mihawk attributes to his "Potentially far higher" bit. 7-A/High 7-A comes from fighting Vista and matching him. I should perhaps clarify that by separating both of those descriptions, right? (Also idk if every single person who uses a sword is classified as a swordsman... Kizaru at least doesn't make sense).

Vista scaling to Mihawk makes little sense because Mihawk doesn't have anyone to directly scale to other than Vista (and Shanks, which again attributes to his far higher rating)

 

[CinCameron20]

@Fix - Also, I forgot how to access my personal sand-box, so I made a blog until Damage/Ant both told me where to locate it.

 

[Damage3245]

@CinCameron20; for future reference you can check under your Contributions tab which will have a link to the sandbox of when you previously edited it, or under your Follows tab which has a section for sandboxes.

 

[CinCameron20]

@Damage - I'll add the Striking Strength to the list, but I think Speed should be kept because, again, a lot of current descriptions of several characters result in circle-scaling or are not accurate.

I'll only add the speed to profiles whenever we begin discussing it, and agree to whatever changes.

Edit: I have now added Striking Strength to the sand-box.

 

[Dr.Fix]

>>@Fix - The WSS title for Mihawk attributes to his "Potentially far higher" bit. 7-A/High 7-A comes from fighting Vista and matching him. I should perhaps clarify that by separating both of those descriptions, right? (Also idk if every single person who uses a sword is classified as a swordsman... Kizaru at least doesn't make sense).

I'll clarify. You have Mihawk scaling to Vista but Vista doesn't scale other than "should be". That said I recognize that scaling Mihawk to any sword fighter is slippery slope. Is there any other feat you know of that we can scale them to?

 

[CinCameron20]

Vista also has the scaling from being capable of fighting Akainu alongside Marco (two times off-panel at different times).

So basically, Mihawk scales from Vista, who scales from fighting Akainu, and also probably being equal to Jozu and maybe Marco.

Edit: The entire scaling chain Mihawk is involved in looks like this btw (without branches):

Mihawk -> Vista -> Akainu -> Aokiji -> Doflamingo -> <Gear4thLuffy

(Or the alternative which is still included is Mihawk -> Vista -> Possibly Jozu/Marco -> Akainu)

 

[Dr.Fix]

I suppose that will have to do. Off-panel is better than unknown for Jack, Vista, & Mihawk for the time being.

 

[Eminiteable]

The breathe of all things is just a state that Zoro was in, currently on the wiki we just treat it as possibly some form of observation haki, but it very well could be different. Cutting steel and cutting nothing for a swordsman isn't done via the breathe of all things, we know now as Hyougoro said that it's an application of advanced Armament, not Goken as far as we know off.

 

[Lgamer099_99]

@Damage - I'll add the Striking Strength to the list, but I think Speed should be kept because, again, a lot of current descriptions of several characters result in circle-scaling or are not accurate.
I'll only add the speed to profiles whenever we begin discussing it, and agree to whatever changes.

Edit: I have now added Striking Strength to the sand-box.

Shouldn't Issho be comparable to the other admirals? Sabo being 7-A sounds like a big lowballing to me.

Now, we have fought for Sanji, but I have to say what I think.

I would modify the description of Sanji's dodging the jellybean with "dodged a jellybean sent by Katakuri thanks to his Observation Haki", I would also add the "even higher" for Sanji while he uses the Poêle à frire which flame of the diable jambe is even more intense, he used it against Doflamingo and was using it with Judge and I would say that the Hell Memories is even higher than that because all of his body is surrounded by flames. We can also add more things for his AP rating, like "Would have defeated Judge if he hadn't used used the meat wall and took advantage of Sanji's kindness, matched Big Mom's Prometheus attack with a Crosse Strike alongside Luffy's Elephant Gun."

 

[Damage3245]

> Shouldn't Issho be comparable to the other admirals?

Not necessarily.

> Sabo being 7-A sounds like a big lowballing to me.

How so?

 

[Eminiteable]

I mean if Fujitora seems too weak you could always just not scale gear second and third to the feat he performed (because even if we deem it causal it is still massively above anything Luffy or anyone else in dressrosa performed)

Alternatively there is a ferocious tiger calc that Luffy could scale too instead.

 

[Lgamer099_99]

> Shouldn't Issho be comparable to the other admirals?
Not necessarily.

> Sabo being 7-A sounds like a big lowballing to me.

How so?

Sabo easily defeated Bastille who has the same ranking of the likes of Smoker and Vergo.

 

[Purgy]

Vice Admirals seems to fluctuate extensively in power, some of which get considered for a promotion to Admiral. Don't quote me on that though.

 

[Eminiteable]

Sabo easily defeated Bastille who has the same ranking of the likes of Smoker and Vergo.

Sabo scales to 420 Megatons. Vice admirals scale below 300 Megatons or below 100 Megatons (I'm unsure of how characters other than zoro scale to pica)

 

[CinCameron20]

@Lgamer - To take it into perspective, regarding Fujitora:

Lore-wise: We have no reason currently to assume the Admirals of this generation are equal in power to their predecessors, especially when considering how Akainu is the Fleet Admiral and has different standards as compared to Sengoku.

From what we see: Fujitora was pressured by Gear 3rd Luffy and hurt by him. He also was incapable of stopping Doflamingo's Bird-Cage, even with help.

Scaling issues: The scaling would make no sense if Fujitora scaled to the original Admirals, as that would imply he is at least equal to Doflamingo (there are anti-feats to this regarding the Bird-Cage, and that he was struggling vs Gear 2nd and 3rd Luffy, which Doflamingo overwhelmed).

As for Sabo, how is it a low-ball? The only characters we've seen him fight currently are: Diamante (he broke his weapon, but Dia is lower on the 7-A spectrum anyways), Bastille (Who as far as I'm aware has no profile or anyone to scale to for that matter. His peer was stomped by Bartolomeo), Burgess, and Fujitora (who Sabo outright claimed to be holding back, and Fujitora himself said "Oh, I could not go after Luffy because I was too busy fighting the Rev's No. 2 ")

• Sabo scales below Fujitora, so <420MT. Someone like Diamante scales considerably below this.

Now for Sanji. There's nothing to suggest that Judge would have lost his fight against Sanji, and Judge gets his scaling from Sanji anyways--not the reverse. Even if Sanji defeated Judge, he'd still be 7-A flat. Doflamingo had his guard down yet he still turned around and stopped the attack before catching Sanji with his strings. Sanji is not scaling to Doflamingo's speed.

@Emi - Vice Admirals scale between Low 7-B and 7-A depending who you look at. Vergo and Smoker scale from Pica. Bastille has no feats, and no reason to scale to anyone who is 7-A.

 

[Dr.Fix]

I slept on it and realized we can actually scale Vista to Daz Bones since he was able to clash directly with Mihawk. Crocodile scales for Duffy, Jozu, and Mihawk but I presume that wasn't going to change.

EDIT: @LGamer technically they are comparable in that Kuzan and Issho have calcs that are very close to each other now. We could put them all at just 7-A but Kuzan is regarded as at least as strong as Duffy and Akainu scales from him. I don't see regular admirals (Kizaru, Issho, Green Bull) measuring up for any reason other than Kizaru scales only a bit weaker to Marco who scales to Kuzan.

 

[CinCameron20]

@Fix - Daz is highly-resistant/immune to slashing attacks, so his durability vs Mihawk is higher than his standard Durability. (Mihawk one shot him immediately after this anyways) Also, this would make Mihawk and Vista both Low 7-B.

Mihawk's Low-end (7-A+) can already be upscaled from Zoro's post time-skip tier since he trained him up until that point, and should still be way stronger than him.

Crocodile is filled with inconsistencies, cuz you got G2 Luffy kicking him away easily, Jozu hurting him, then he clashes with Doflamingo, then deflected a strike from Mihawk, then presumably fights against Akainu. Weird.

 

[Dr.Fix]

>>Mihawk's Low-end (7-A+) can already be upscaled from Zoro's post time-skip tier since he trained him up until that point, and should still be way stronger than him.

That would be 7-A but yea I can see that being a good alternative for Mihawk and those who scale from him, thanks.

Daz clearly is not immune to slashing attacks as we both just referenced him going down. We can make Vista low 7-B or 7-A using your mentioend alternative. I'll leave it to @Damage to consider which.

As for Crocdile, don't be a hater. The only abnormality I see is that both he and Luffy are stronger than their prior keys and should maybe get an adjustment to their MF keys.

 

[Eminiteable]

Regarding Crocodile and Mihawk, based on what I'm seeing it seems similar to when he faced Jozu, Mihawk used future sight and deflected the strike from Crocodile.

 

[CinCameron20]

@Fix - Upscaling from a 7-A could still be 7-A+ if Mihawk is factually far more powerful than Zoro.

As for Daz, he probably is immune actually (but someone far stronger than him would still cut him cuz otherwise that's NLF), as the only time we saw Zoro hurt him was with the "Breath of All Things" and Mihawk is a Haki user.

Crocodile's actually my favorite One Piece villain lol. His display is still quite inconsistent, since we're led to believe he's comparable to Luffy at the time, yet gets merc'd by Jozu/Doffy before magically being Mihawk/Akainu's tier.

As for Marineford keys, I believe it is time to discuss that briefly (Magellan might actually get an actual tier because of this):

MF Luffy should get "At least Low 7-B" in base for same reasons, "Possibly 7-A" with Gear 2nd and 3rd (Probably down-scaled to base-line). He is inferior to the likes of Blackbeard and the high tier Marine Vice Admirals, but he was still capable of dealing them harm and withstood attacks from each of them, therefore he should not be far weaker than them.

Like-wise, Crocodile would get the same tier for the following reasons: At least Low 7-B, Possibly 7-A "Should be comparable to Gear 2nd Luffy (took a kick from him). Managed to clash against Doflamingo, Mihawk and Akainu, though he was never shown capable of hurting any of them. Survived an attack from Jozu, though he suffered much damage".

Obviously the descriptions would be altered based on AP/Dura.

 

[CinCameron20]

@Emi - That's a fair point, actually. I'll have to re-read it, but it already seems a good enough reason to remove Mihawk from Croc's scaling.

 

[Lgamer099_99]

@Cincameron20 I have never said that Sanji should scale to Doflamingo in speed and I have never said that Judge doesn't scale to Sanji, just that the cook should have on his profile "even higher with Poile a Friere" because it's an enhanced version of Diable Jambe and It is implied that with It he would have defeated Judge. Let me explain in the easiest way possibile:

Just Attack potency: Base Sanji Ôëê Daifuku < Diable Jambe Sanji Ôëê Judge < Poile a Friere Sanji < Hell Memories Sanji.

For Sabo, I just cannot see him this weak when he was like Ace at the time of Alabasta, the old and strong brother of Luffy, also Sabo should be above Ivankov who survived from an off-pannel fight against Sakazuki and she didn't look weaker than Jinbe or Crocodile at all. Fujitora might be weaker than the likes of Borsalino, and I agree because he hasn't a logia fruit, but Issho should be at least comparable to vice admirals that can possibly be an Admiral.

 

[CinCameron20]

@Lgamer - Ratings are not being changed based on pure opinions and speculation.

>>" I have never said that Sanji should scale to Doflamingo in speed "

• Here's exactly what you said: "I would also add the "even higher" for Sanji while he uses the Po├¬le ├á frire which flame of the diable jambe is even more intense, he used it against Doflamingo..." when regarding Sanji's speed rating. So yes, you did.

You say "he would have defeated Judge" but this remains to be seen and Sanji had yet to even hurt Judge for that matter.

Sanji's already got a higher rating for his Diable Jambe attacks, which includes "Poile a Friere" and "Hell Memories". Now cite anywhere that even remotely suggests that either of these are stronger than his other Diable Jambe attacks. Not your opinion. I want a statement from either a databook or the manga, or even an implication for that matter.

Sabo is not stronger than Luffy according to any source. There's 0 evidence and Luffy actually performs better against Fujitora than Sabo did i.e. he actually hurt him and came out with almost no injury. Ivankov doesn't even scale to Akainu and lost to him almost instantly and Sabo has no reason to be believed to be above Ivankov other than rank.

Your statement on Fujitora confuses me. "at least comparable to Vice Admirals that can possibly be an Admiral"... The only one that scales higher than Fujitora among the VAs is Garp (and possibly Tsuru who is part of Garp's generation, but not after the changes). Garp was offered the rank of Admiral in his prime numerous times and refused it at every turn to avoid being a puppet of the Celestial Dragons. Fujitora already scales above the rest of the VA's as he is >420MT and the VAs scale much lower than that.