One Piece High 7-A Revision

[Eminiteable]

There were two vice Admirals that were originally fan created who were added into the story, they were said to be candidates for admirals, but.., likely their only role in the story if they get one is to be fodder to the warlords or something.

 

[Dr.Fix]

^Gion & Chaton do not have profiles or feats yet to be considered.

 

[Dr.Fix]

@Cin Yes, if he is factually far more powerful. Need some proof. I beleive he is, but that is argument from belief which is crap.

Umm aren't you being a little hard on your favorite villain? Croc spat up a bit of blood and landed on his feet fine. If we consider that "Much damage" or "Merc'd" then that doesn't bode well for all the times Luffy drew blood from Duffy, or Bellamy drew blood from duffy, or Jozu drew blood from Kuzan . . . Plus there is haki to consider.

Duffy=>Croc=>Jozu=>Daz Bones seems more accurate but let us leave MF revamp for a seperate thread? Good to know you agree changes should be made.

NLF is exactly why we use resistance instead of immunity. No immunity for Daz Bones and I don't see much cause for resistance either. Either way Vista can scale above him.

 

[Lgamer099_99]

@CinCameron20

For Poeile a Friere being stronger than any other diable jambe attacks you just have to re-read the fight against Judge, the Germa supreme commander was capable of grabbed Sanji's leg while he was using a diable jambe's attack, but prefered to use the meat wall when Sanji finally went all out with a visible more intense flame after he said "Poeile a Friere". Judge won capitalizing Sanji's kindness and using meat walls to gain the advantage with that, what does that mean? That Sanji would have win without these advantages. Also, it was confirmed by Oda that Sanji's power is enhanced by his emotions and the flame went higher in the same moment he was feeling hate for his father.

For Sabo, it feels like Oda was trying to emphasize the idea that Luffy still had a stronger older brother looking out for him during that arc, but you don't look like the kind of person who looks at lore, so I'm gonna say that was confirmed by some marines that Sabo was on a totally different level from Mugiwara's crew.

 

[CinCameron20]

Again, show me statements. And it's cute you're throwing such obvious insults when you're just coming off as a Sanji and Sabo wanker in every thread I see you in. This doesn't surprise me.

As of right now, your suggested changes are moot.

 

[Lgamer099_99]

Again, show me statements. And it's cute you're throwing such obvious insults when you're just coming off as a Sanji and Sabo wanker in every thread I see you in. This doesn't surprise me.
As of right now, your suggested changes are moot.

I don't understand why from the very beginning you had this way of speaking to me, like you hated me, I haven't insult you and It was never my intent, I can tell you sorry if this helps to have a normal conversation. Also, I don't know where you have seen me wanking Sabo, I just know to have talk to you about Sanji, but even there I don't think I was wanking someone and you started accusing me of doing that from the very beginning. I just think we have totally different way of view things, do not take it as an insult because it isn't, but you look like a person who needs strong statements and feats for classificate a character, for example you didn't like the fact I have posted some off pannel fights, seems like you need to see something too much clear and that you don't see the lore. I mean, I do not need to have seen the fight between Sanji and Judge without the Germa commander using the meat wall, it's simple logic to me that if someone as proud as him chose to use to his advantage Sanji's kindness means he would have lost. I just want to say to you that the persons who agreeded with you looked like Zoro and Mihawk's wankers to me, so I don't know if this helps you... a lot of persons here think that Sanji would have defeated his father and brothers. I would appreciate if you will stop talking about me like a fanboy, thank you.

About Sanji, when someone asked why Sanji's Diable Jamble does not burn him as well in SBS, Oda claimed that while Sanji's flames burn hot, his heart burns hotter. We know that Sanji's power is connected to feelings, in fact he used the Hell memories when he was angry for the 2 years spended run away from the okamas.

About Sabo, before the 2-year time skip, Ace and Sabo were both 20 years old. We know that Sabo was only slightly weaker than Ace because in a flashback, they fought 50 times and Ace won 26 times and lost 24 times against Sabo. However, Sabo had Haki at the age of 17 as confirmed on the episode 737, I know that anime is not canon, but for that episode Oda himself wrote the script and confirmed it was canon, while 17 years old Ace didn't, he unlocked it later and he also got the mera mera no mi.

Now Sabo had 2 years more of training than Ace because the last one died. Sabo's armament haki even seems to be the advanced one, so he could even compensate the fact that Ace had a logia fruit with a better haki, but let's say that he became at the very least comparable to Ace after he ate the mera mera.

 

[Eminiteable]

^Gion & Chaton do not have profiles or feats yet to be considered.

I know just thought I'd bring them up, I suppose at the very least they should be above Vergo and smoker but that is all.

 

[Superscharbe]

Fuji is barely First Mate Level via feats


Even G4 Ruffy has better feats via FS and A-CoA

 

[Eminiteable]

What's first mate level?

 

[CinCameron20]

@Emi - he might be referring to Fujitora only being comparable to Zoro, which isn't totally wrong, just that Fuji has his own feat putting him above Base Zoro by a bit.

Also, darn, i forgot Zoro was probably being affected by this. What exact scale does he scale to? >300someMT right? If so, he probably stays exactly the same as current.

 

[Purgy]

First mate level would be like Katakuri tier. Zoro may be a first mate, but he's definitely not on any first mates level as of yet.

 

[CinCameron20]

^Gion & Chaton do not have profiles or feats yet to be considered.

Considering we could only assume they have Rokushiki abilities and we have no clue on how they fight, i'd hold off on making profiles for them since it would basically be something like:

"Tier: Likely 7-A"

"Intel: Unknown"

"Abilities: shrug... maybe Rokushiki since they are VAs currently"

 

[Eminiteable]

For dressrosa saga ATM Zoro scales to > 300 Megatons, I do have some arguments for why he would scale around fuji, gear second Luffy etc but those are tied with speed and a character profile that isn't made yet so if rather wait for after the speed revisions to be done first.

But I'm unsure where exactly it would scale, but, Zoro in wano was capable of kiling Hawkins on two occasions with only two sword style(w/o haki) this is significant as Hawkins on two occasions was shown equal physically to Law (ignoring counter shock and such abilities). Zoro in the killer fight proved even without Shusui which makes his strikes stronger that he's capable of one shotting those equal to two sword style Zoro with his three "sword" style purgatory onigiri(a basic technique).

 

[Damage3245]

Hawkin's ability doesn't transfer death, just damage. So Zoro damaged Hawkings on two occasions.

 

[CinCameron20]

@Emi - Zoro's Wano key is going to factor in all of his training during the arc whenever we see something new. Hawkins scales up to Zoro (so bringing him up isn't relevant for Zoro's scaling), who I'm pretty certain before Wano actually scales slightly above Law anyways.

As for Dressrosa Zoro, he's already at a level where he'd be a threat to Fujitora. Sadly there's nothing to determine that he is equal to Fujitora, as we've only seen the following: Fujitora shoves Zoro into the ground, Zoro wrestles free and pushes Fujitora back a few feet. Zoro then fights Fujitora alongside Luffy off-panel, but it doesn't appear anyone was hurt.

So at the very most, we could argue Zoro's Durability scales to Fujitora (Which I'm against since he was hurt by a casual attack and his durability is already at a level where he'd take hits from Fujitora anyways), but his AP would not since his best feat is just shoving Fujitora backwards a few feet, but not even hurting him (like Luffy did).

 

[Eminiteable]

For Fuji the fight didn't last long enough for any damage to be dealt, but considering he pushed Fujitora back with only one sword while under the pressure of his gravity it's impressive enough, probably more so than luffy, interestingly even after watching Luffy and Fujitora fight and see what both are capable off Zoro remarks with confidence for Luffy to step aside and let him fight Fujitora.

The damage done to Hawkins gets transferred, Zoro cut Hawkins straw pursuit thing completely in half and the same would happen to Hawkins true body.

 

[CinCameron20]

Yes, I'm aware that Zoro has the ability to hurt and potentially kill Hawkins. The issue is that Hawkins scales to both Law and Zoro. In terms of stats, Zoro is the strongest of the three. Hawkins scales just because he hurt Zoro and stopped an attack from Law, but his Durability is something that should be taken under question.

 

[Damage3245]

> The damage done to Hawkins gets transferred, Zoro cut Hawkins straw pursuit thing completely in half and the same would happen to Hawkins true body.

Only if we assume the straw body is as durable as Hawkins, right?

 

[Eminiteable]

@damage I'd assume it would be as it is connected to hawkin's true body and hawkins has already shown his abilitities with straw can alter his physical body to straw as well as turning his sword which can endure law's blows to straw.

As for what i'm making significant; in wano it was made clear that three sword style (regardless of the weapon zoro uses) is able to one shot opponents who would be equal to his two sword style. Hawkins and law have fought twice and had some minor encounters; the first time they were portrayed as equals when they clashed, during the scuffles hawkins damaged law with the seastone nails and in the next scuffle law was at a disadvantage due to his crew, then the last time they fight was offscreened but based on the wounds on Hawkin's body it implies Law had assistence from whoever else was there (Maybe X-Drake). Based on all of these encounters it does paint them as equals as the only time one was direclty portrayed as superior was when they had assistance of some sort.

So considering this, Zoro with two sword style on the first occasion was able to casually cut through Hawkins face with no named air slashes, the second time while defending Luffy and Tama (Zoro is at a disadvantage which is why he had to take Hawkin's nails head on) but still tore through the strawman (who should have equal durability to Hawkins as I explained above) with a named attack.

Considering all that I think it's more than fair to say two sword style Zoro has the capacity to one shot characters around Hawkins and law's level, add in the fact Zoro can one shot people on par with his two sword style with his three sword style (not even his strongest attacks like Daisen Sekai). So, based on this I think it would be appropriate for us to up-scale Wano pre-enma training Zoro to 7-A+ and while we're at it we consider pre-enma training Zoro and post-enma training Zoro (the one who will partake in the battle at onigashima) as two different keys.

Also for what it's worth, pre-enma training Zoro is stated stronger than Jinbe in the vivre cards, so maybe that can be used as supporting evidence, as well as casually blocked an attack from Kawamatsu, and although inferior was able to contend with Denjiro using two sword style, which would mean Zoro with three sword based on what we know would scale far above.

 

[Aerozz]

hmm.. btw shouldnt zoro speed be rev+ if not faster?

coz hawkins couldnt react/dodge zoro's attack?

 

[CinCameron20]

bump.

So i assume the AP/Dura changes are good to go for currently discussed characters, right? Speed is obviously on hold for another topic, of course.

 

[Damage3245]

I'm still not sure about Jack. I don't think it makes a lot of sense to scale him, and indirectly most of the Red Scabbards, to Sengoku, the Fleet Admiral of the Marines.

 

[Eminiteable]

Yeah I disagree with scaling Jack to Sengoku, unless I'm missing something is there any implication that Sengoku took part?

Also could I get some feedback regarding pre-enma Zoro?

 

[Dr.Fix]

I thought all threads like this were on hold until the move.

Btw, any word on a specific date for that?

 

[CinCameron20]

@Damage - Alright, then I guess Jack, Queen and King would all be downgraded:

Jack to "At least 7-A" for fighting Fujitora and Tsuru.

Queen and King each being "At least 7-A, likely higher" for being stronger than Jack, and for Queen casually stopping a punch from Post-Wholecake Luffy.

Would this be fine?

 

[Damage3245]

Yeah, that'll be fine for now.

Since we are pretty much on the doorstep of the big Wano battle, we can assume that in the next couple dozen chapters we will get more fights for Jack, Queen and King and more feats to solidly rate them with.

 

[Eminiteable]

How about that big paragraph I wrote tho.

 

[Damage3245]

> The damage done to Hawkins gets transferred, Zoro cut Hawkins straw pursuit thing completely in half and the same would happen to Hawkins true body.

I don't think this means that the straw doll has equal durability to Hawkins.

Damage Transferral tends to bypass durability since it is transferring the damage the user suffered / suffers from, not the attack itself. Otherwise you could say that every fodder pirate that Hawkins makes a straw doll out of has equal durability to himself.

 

[Dr.Fix]

It doesn't make much sense that SenGoku would just watch as half the marines sank.

Also if we do exclude SenGoku Queen should be at least 7-A (Stronger than Jack) possibly 6-B (Traded blows with Big Mom).

 

[Damage3245]

Yonkou ratings and up for revision post-forum move, so let's not include any new scaling that depends on the Yonkou.

And nobody said that Sengoku just sat and watched; for all we know he was standing guard over Doflamingo directly. We don't have a lot of info about the battle to work with.

 

[Eminiteable]

Those two scenario's are quite a bit different; the doll's simply will take the damage that is dealt to Hawkins whether that is due to the amount of damage Hawkins would have taken or the amount of damage it would deal to the doll's host is unknown and irrelevant. Although Hawkins remarks that the small strawmen that his subordinates represent are referred to as their clones, so you could say those strawmen share the durability of their hosts but ultimately that has no connection to Hawkins and i'm unsure why that was brought up.

The Strawman card however when it's damaged that damage is shared with Hawkins and then activates Hawkin's damage transfer onto his life hosts like normal, this is due to the fact that the strawman that zoro cut is distinctly different than the ones that his subordinates are, this is because (Hawkins says this) "We'll start with my strawman card" which tells us that the massive strawmen is his "clone". It is fair to say that this strawman shares hawkin's durability as it's essentially himself and we already know Hawkins can transmute his own body into straw similar to his pre-timeskip Gomo no So technique.

Although regarding Jack and sengoku... I do feel we are applying our own bias on how we interpret the strength of Jack. Sure, we don't know what happened but that doesn't mean we should exclude Sengoku if we don't know. After thinking it over I think the safest option that applies less bias of how we feel about said characters is to include Sengoku, Tsuru and Fujitora.

(also personally I feel a different thread should be made to discuss 6-B continuing to be used, but, it should be done sooner rather than later so that the appropriate scaling for this thread involving Yonko's can be applied, for what it's worth, I support the 6-B removal.)

 

[Dr.Fix]

Why not? We're not supposed to be discussing ratings period till move but you still are.

 

[CinCameron20]

This thread's mostly for the current High 7-A ratings. If there's 6-B possibilities to discuss it should be after this in a different thread (same for speed descriptions).

@Damage and Fix - I applied changes to the sandbox regarding Jack and everyone who scales to him, but I left in a "possibly higher" rating for him due to the possibility that Sengoku had to step in (but since it's unknown, we can't push it), and he fought both Fujitora and Tsuru on top of whoever else was there at the time (we know there were several Vice Admirals... at least a couple trash ones who are Low 7-B fodder lol...)

 

[Damage3245]

Okay, that should be fine.

@Dr. Fix; do you have any other points regarding Cin's sandbox?

 

[Dr.Fix]

I bring it up only because because you were going to assign a rating to Queen so yes it counts.

@Damage: multiple. The biggest being Duffy which I have brought up above. There are others though I held back because:

A) too many topics at once leads to none getting done

B) Forum move was supposed to put these things on hold and I respected that.

 

[Damage3245]

The forum move has been delayed somewhat, so if we can just go over the last few issues on this thread, we can make the changes and put this this behind us.

 

[Eminiteable]

@Ci Opinions of what i've proposed?

 

[CinCameron20]

@Emi - If it's about Zoro having far more power with 3-sword rather than 2, yes it certainly increases his effectiveness, but when we look at the case of Killer and Pica for example, Zoro used Haki to take both of them down in one strike, not just 3-sword style.

Pica previously took Zoro's 1080 pound canon (we see him actually struck by it due to coughing up blood and the path of the attack went straight to his location), and he could continue fighting all the same. Zoro only took him out with Haki and an enhanced ability (daisen sekkai).

Also I'm pretty certain Zoro's the only one who fully scales to the Pica statue while the rest scale only comparable or below it (via scaling to Pica who was only shown matching 2-sword Zoro, who wasn't even fighting with full intent).

So the scaling chain should already have Base Zoro = Pica Golem > Pica himself = Law/Vergo/Sanji/etc.

Hawkins' durability already needs to be taken under question since he's not once tanked a hit from any of the characters in the 7-A range. They always seem to one-shot him LOL.

 

[Dr.Fix]

Luffy: It seems strange to include punching Sanji in his AP description. For one that was well after Dressrosa. Granted the most recent description labels that key to include that period but I don't know we can say he didn't get stronger from his earlier fights. Also Sanji mopped the floor with him after and I can' say he was even serious and Luffy was beaten up from Cracker. It makes more sense for the continuity to just rank him above Bellamy for putting him down, who in turn should scale to Luffy for getting past his armament and rubber defense to damage him. @Cin agrees with this upgrade if I'm not mistaken.

Still on the topic of Luffy it looks weird how some keys get at least and others don't for little to no reasoning. I think more thought has to be put into this. That applies to other characters such as Fuji and those who scale from him.

Another weird one is Jozu. Cin isn't exactly wrong and I agree Jozu scales somewhat for hurting Aokiji. I just do no think he should scale fully. Luffy damaged Duffy and Bellamy damaged Luffy but they at least took hits in turn. Cannot say the same for Jozu. On step down seems more appropiate.

Ex 1: If Duffy is at least 7-A+, possibly high 7-A, then Just give Jozu 7-A+.

Ex 2: Duffy is 7-A+ (No higher) than Jozu is 7-A (Obviously I prefer this one if you have read detailed comments above).

^Looks like @Cin already applied something similar to Jesus VS Sabo so I think he knows what I am talking about.

Vista doesn't really have anything. @Daamge has not weighed in iirc on suggestions by @Cin or myself in that regard.

Marco's description should include all the admirals. Alternatively just use the one I gave above.

Kizaru's description does not need via heat. Lasers are on the Dur Negation page by itself. He also should not have "comparable to his peers" since it is the default for all scaling to Marco to varying extents. Leaving it on there could cause problems down the road.

Garp: Why is he the only one who jumps straight to high 7-A instead of including the lower rating?

 

[Eminiteable]

I'm only proposing the two sword to three sword thing being a one shot range difference for wano and the scaling for wano as it has quite a few things that support him being higher than his dressrosa key (I have different suggestions for Dressrosa that aren't relevant on this thread), although I do agree with things you suggest for the pica stuff.

Here's some of the things simplified for why I think Wano Zoro should be 7A+ (not sure how the whole upscaling functions but I feel these could be used):

- The killer fight although the use of haki was present, he did perform the one shot rather casually considering the level of attack was only a purgatory onigiri. A scaling chain would look like this without haki: killer = two sword Zoro << two sword Zoro + killer's scythe <<< three sword Zoro (Shusui). Zoro can one shot those on par with Nitōryü with a weaker version of Santōryü

- The Vivre cards had Jinbe listed as an official straw hat member and later when the Zoro Vivre card came out it says Zoro is the strongest strawhat behind Luffy. Vivre cards tell us Wano Zoro (No Enma Training) is > Jinbei

- Zoro with one sword was able to casually block a sword strike from Kawamatsu and could contend with Denjiro on an almost equal footing(an argument could be made that Zoro wasn't entirely interested in fighting Denjiro as he was more focused on Orochi and he was able to easily reach Hiyori without much issues), and base on the scaling chain above we know based Zoro at "full power" is far above these two showings. Zoro > Kawamatsu and Denjiro on varying degrees.

- Hawkins physical strength is equal to Law's and after analysing there encounters there isn't really much else to take from it other than that. Two sword style Zoro was able to tear completely through Hawkins own Strawman, essentially this would add the the first scaling chain Hawkins << Two Sword Zoro. Law = Hawkins and Nitōryü can one shot Hawkins.

That's pretty much it.