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One Piece God Tiers and Top Tiers Revision

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I will say when it comes to Whitebeard vs the Admirals, outside of one instance (Akainu stopping WB's blade with his foot), there's no evidence of them being comparable to him physically. Meanwhile, we've seen Whitebeard casually slap their attacks aside despite already being withered.

People bring up "Oh, injuries don't matter" and point out some irrelevant or illogical points, but the theme in marineford was that "Whitebeard is a shadow of his former self" and his sickness and injuries are brought up quite regularly as affecting his abilities.

Granted, it wouldn't really matter since the Admirals and Whitebeard wont be that far off eachother in stats soon.
 
Let's honestly take a count on how many times it's brought up:

1) Chapter 563: The point you just brought up about Whitebeard's sickness clearly getting to him in this situation.
  • And as shown from this point forward, in Chapters 566 and 567 most notably, there are cases in which we see Whitebeard's face looking pale, and he's huffing and puffing before even engaging in any serious fight. Also, the stab injury inflicted by Squardo might as well have been fatal, as everyone treated it as such up until the point Akainu jammed his arm into WB's chest.
2) Chapter 568: Marco brings it up again during Akainu vs Whitebeard, saying that this was something he was afraid of happening.
  • Akainu also points out WB being unable to overcome old-age, though I hardly consider this comment since it's not entirely clear whether he's referring to his current endurance, or being disturbed from his physical ailment via sickness/injury.

3) Chapter 569: Whitebeard's clearly affected greatly by his injuries, as he's stunned and grips his chest once more while Ace is about to be executed.

4) Chapter 570: A bunch of marines regard Whitebeard as being badly hurt and that this should allow them to take him out (They get thwacked instantly, though, but they're not wrong).

And to point out once again, there's multiple panels explicitly showing how fatigued Whitebeard is, and it's pointed out on occasion that he's hurt or has a foot in the grave. Akainu by this point had not suffered a single scratch as far as we know, and Whitebeard with ALL of the injuries he had accumulated managed to wound him badly with 2 strikes and even incap'd him for a short duration. Don't forget the 2nd strike was AFTER WB lost half of his head... which brings me to the next point:

5) Chapter 575: Sengoku specifically notes that Whitebeard still displays a lot of power despite the fact that half of his face is gone. This does not mean "Whitebeard is at full power" or even close. Just that he's still very powerful. Powerful enough to 2-tap an Admiral.

I don't wanna hear some BS about how a character near-death can perform feats equal to his healthy counter-part. This is entirely false, and it's proven every time in this series. Try to argue a single point trying to negate this, and I'll debunk it as long as it actually qualifies (meaning I wont take "x character being bruised a little bit still performed equally as well").
 
KingTempest said:
I second this.

If it was dura negation, they would've went through Marco and he wouldn't have blocked it.
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"Phoenix flames have special properties", but real-talk, this is the only case ever where the beams did not go through something. Light doesn't generate intense heat either, yet Kizaru somehow can.

But It doesn't really matter since the Admirals wont be 1/1000th WB's stats anymore pretty soon.
 
So, where are we at? Are we still fine with the Yonkou being 6-C, with the exception of Whitebeard/Blackbeard who will be 6-C, possibly 6-B?
 
CinCameron20 said:
1) Chapter 563: The point you just brought up about Whitebeard's sickness clearly getting to him in this situation.
Click to expand...
The issue I've found is everyone is interpreting that this sickness due to old age is making his physical strength deteriorate and his durability, yet, in this instance Whitebeard's right hand man and doctor says "that's right even in this state the boss should have been able to dodge. No matter how off guard he was, even from someone he thought of as an ally he shouldn't have taken the attack" Marco clearly implies that this sickness and deterioration means he wasn't able to dodge in time; and didn't imply that Whitebeard could have taken the stab even if he was fine.
CinCameron20 said:
And as shown from this point forward, in Chapters 566 and 567 most notably, there are cases in which we see Whitebeard's face looking pale, and he's huffing and puffing before even engaging in any serious fight. Also, the stab injury inflicted by Squardo might as well have been fatal, as everyone treated it as such up until the point Akainu jammed his arm into WB's chest
Click to expand...
In chapter 566 & 567 I don't see where you're getting the "huff puff" or his face being pale. The issue once again even if the wound was fatal to Whitebeard (which again considering he took worse after that point, means it wasn't as hyped up as you're making it out to be) it still doesn't suggest he grew any noticeably weaker since as a show of power he destroyed the tsunami which he created when he was not stabbed; even Crocodile who accused him of being a "weak man" was sweating after seeing this.
CinCameron20 said:
2) Chapter 568: Marco brings it up again during Akainu vs Whitebeard, saying that this was something he was afraid of happening.
Click to expand...
Yes he was afraid of Whitebeard's conditions worsening, which happened when he got a heart attack.
CinCameron20 said:
Akainu also points out WB being unable to overcome old-age, though I hardly consider this comment since it's not entirely clear whether he's referring to his current endurance, or being disturbed from his physical ailment via
Click to expand...
I'm pretty sure he's referring to the fact he's old and just had a heart attack from fighting, that's the focus of the scene and Akainu's comment most definitely can be used.
CinCameron20 said:
3) Chapter 569: Whitebeard's clearly affected greatly by his injuries, as he's stunned and grips his chest once more while Ace is about to be executed.
Click to expand...
Yes, he says "you think I can't stop that", but was momentarily stopped (likely from using conqueor's) due to his heart and injuries.
CinCameron20 said:
4) Chapter 570: A bunch of marines regard Whitebeard as being badly hurt and that this should allow them to take him out (They get thwacked instantly, though, but they're not wrong).
Click to expand...
If they were taken out instantly clearly they were wrong that they could take him out 💀
CinCameron20 said:
And to point out once again, there's multiple panels explicitly showing how fatigued Whitebeard is, and it's pointed out on occasion that he's hurt or has a foot in the grave. Akainu by this point had not suffered a single scratch as far as we know, and Whitebeard with ALL of the injuries he had accumulated managed to wound him badly with 2 strikes and even incap'd him for a short duration. Don't forget the 2nd strike was AFTER WB lost half of his head... which brings me to the next point:
Click to expand...
Yes he's fatigued and Injures by this point, but Cin that doesn't mean his physical stats were weakened.

CinCameron20 said:
5) Chapter 575: Sengoku specifically notes that Whitebeard still displays a lot of power despite the fact that half of his face is gone. This does not mean "Whitebeard is at full power" or even close. Just that he's still very powerful.
Click to expand...
"With half your face gone, you still have such power" this implies he's shocked that even with such severe injuries Whitebeard is capable of producing a large amount of power, actually Cin with the usage of "such" it denotes a large amount/impressive.
CinCameron20 said:
I don't wanna hear some BS about how a character near-death can perform feats equal to his healthy counter-part. This is entirely false, and it's proven every time in this series. Try to argue a single point trying to negate this, and I'll debunk it as long as it actually qualifies (meaning I wont take "x character being bruised a little bit still performed equally as well").
Click to expand...
Whitebeard's death proved his strength never faltered or lessened with injuries, the fact his body still had the strength to stand even after death is proof of that; it's proof his physical strength didn't degrade like you're claiming.

Zoro in Arlong park had lost 5 litres of blood yet still was able to continue fighting somewhat, yet in thriller bark he was to quote him "his own body no longer listened to him" and then took further damage from the pain paw. Zoro in this state could still perform at the same level of strength by cutting through Kuma & later on in Sabaody where his injuries hadn't healed yet was still able to fight on par with the monster trio (the only notable deficiency was his ability to walk; which is why he needed Sanji to kick the pacifista his way).

I think the fact that he could still stand even in death should be the main takeaway that his strength didn't deteriorate, in death you should be powerless and fall limp, when I'll and injured your strength should falter, but neither happened to Whitebeard.
 
@Eminiteable - You seem to agree that WB's condition did worsen, but for some reason suggest his power didn't lessen, but before this seem to imply he did lose some power. Which is it, then?

The Zoro example really doesn't help your case since he was in a massively lethargic state and was clearly weaker than before and couldn't perform named attacks without stunning himself.
 
CinCameron20 said:
@Eminiteable - You seem to agree that WB's condition did worsen, but for some reason suggest his power didn't lessen, but before this seem to imply he did lose some power. Which is it, then?

The Zoro example really doesn't help your case since he was in a massively lethargic state and was clearly weaker than before and couldn't perform named attacks without stunning himself.
Click to expand...
I agree he got closer to death, that he got more injured. But, there's no suggestion his stats got weaker; there's no suggestion that his durability got lower, that his physical strength lessened or that his earthquakes got weaker.

What we know from Marco is due to his illness he wasn't able to react to attacks he normally would have, and that if his condition worsens even more that it would cause heart attacks.

But like I've brought up with the Zoro example and like KingTempest brought up with many other examples, characters in one piece don't drop tiers when they get damaged.

And with Whitebeard even when logically he should have absolutely no strength (via death) he still did, somehow his body never went limp and fell and instead stayed strong even after dying.
 
Damage3245 said:
So, where are we at? Are we still fine with the Yonkou being 6-C, with the exception of Whitebeard/Blackbeard who will be 6-C, possibly 6-B?
Click to expand...
I am not sure. Your suggestion makes sense to me, but I think we are discussing how to scale the admirals now.
 
Well, I think it would be fine to upgrade the original Admirals to be at least High 7-A, and then wait until the next time we see those Admirals.

Who knows, maybe at the end of Wano Kizaru will show up and punch Big Mom's lights out, making a ton of this discussion worthless.
 
I don't feel right with the OG admirals being on the same strength level as Luffy, Doflamingo, and Katakuri
 
KingTempest said:
I don't feel right with the OG admirals being on the same strength level as Luffy, Doflamingo, and Katakuri
Click to expand...
Aren't Kata and Doffy only "likely/possibly High 7-A"? That'd mean the Admirals are higher than them on the scaling chain I think.
 
Doflamingo: possibly Large Mountain level himself (Despite being physically inferior to Gear 4th Luffy, Doflamingo was capable of pressuring him and held Luffy at bay for over 20 minutes)
Click to expand...
This is honestly good reasoning for Large Mountain, plus he was already injured before.
Katakuri: possibly Large Mountain level (Hailed as being the strongest of the Three Sweet Commanders, and could contend with and gradually deal damage to Bound-Man Luffy over 25 minutes of constant fighting).
Click to expand...
What the hell is it with all these possiblys? He one shot him and made him run away? How is Luffy High 7-A but Katakuri, who bodied him on multiple occasions, isn't???
 
UchihaSlayer96 said:
Aren't Kata and Doffy only "likely/possibly High 7-A"? That'd mean the Admirals are higher than them on the scaling chain I think.
Click to expand...
Yeah but Kata shouldn't, it makes as much sense as Kaido having a H7A ending for one shooting Luffy, these feats (Kaido's and Kata's Elephant Gun) are meant to be of superiority and not "they didn't hit kill so should be around the same level"
 
UchihaSlayer96 said:
Since the Admirals won't be illogically weaker than every individual Yonkou, I can agree with Damage's suggestion for the time being.
Though I'd still argue an "At least High 7-A, likely 6-C" is warranted for Akainu and Aokiji given my previous points.
Click to expand...
That seems fine to me, but I am not the best person to ask.
 
This is One Piece scaling on the site in a nutshell.

Gear 2nd and 3rd Luffy > 420 Megatons
Fishman Island Saga to Whole Cake Island Gear 4th Luffy ≥ 3x Gear 2nd and 3rd. Gear 4th > 1.2 Gigatons

Fishman Island Saga to Whole Cake Island Gear 4th Luffy > 1.2 Gigatons
Doflamingo Pressures Luffy = Possibly 1.2 Gigatons.

Katakuri >>>>> FIS to WCI Gear Fourth Luffy.
Katakuri POSSIBLY > 1.2 Gigatons
Post WCI Gear Fourth Luffy > Katakuri
Post WCI G4 Luffy > 1.2 Gigatons

Luffy gets stronger
Post Udon Training Luffy > 1.2 Gigatons

Why the hell can I debate Udon Training Luffy vs Dressrosa Luffy?
You're really telling me he got all these powerups and he still hasn't gotten at least above baseline?
Large Mountain is a 4.3 LE to HE Ratio with 2.65 as the average. If Luffy gets a 2x powerup, he's admiral level.
Katakuri should've been AT LEAST 2 Gigatons for bodying Luffy, but it makes no sense that these people are the same strength and their justification is stronger than before.

And what's worse, if Luffy blows twice the amount of air he usually does, via this site during Dressrosa, he can hurt the Admirals.

Are you deadass?
 
And what's worse, if Luffy blows twice the amount of air he usually does, via this site during Dressrosa, he can hurt the Admirals.
Click to expand...

I don't really get this point. Are you referring to the King Kong Gun?
 
XDragnoir said:
Post Udon Luffy is 3x7A+, not 3x420
Click to expand...
So minimum 1.65 Gigatons (since 7A+ starts at 550 megatons).

Sorry, all these possibles and these barely stronger than the previous forms are just, wrong.

They're way too close to the admirals. Admirals getting High 7A+ doesn't do them justice.

High 7A, likely 6-C is basically saying "they can barely beat Luffy, likely they can harm a Yonko" you see my point?
 
XDragnoir said:
And if i got this part right, you are talking about non-stated multipliers, which were completely rejected for One Piece and other verses.
Click to expand...
I don't even wanna think about multipliers. G4 Luffy's strongest attacks are strong as hell compared to his normal attacks, but they're put in the same strength tier as his regular G4 attacks.
 
How high into 6-C is Kaido via him lifting Onigashima? Couldn't we approximate the 3 original Admirals as being half or a third of that?
 
Again, my proposition is to put them as At least High 7-A, and then not to touch their statistics until we get some more clarifications / feats / scaling information for them.

High 7A, likely 6-C is basically saying "they can barely beat Luffy, likely they can harm a Yonko" you see my point?
Click to expand...

We won't really know how well Gear 4 Luffy compares to any of them until the next time the admirals show up for a proper fight.
 
I agree with Damage.

Also we've had a new image on the size of the skull of Onigashima. The calc might need to be adjusted.
 
Regarding the state of things

Step 1) Close this thread. Since is has been thoroughly derailed by @KingTempest , @UchihaSlayer96 , and @Antvasima its purpose has been lost in translation.

Step 2) Open the thread for a discussion rule @The_Calaca proposed a long time ago. That way their derailment won't impede revisions anymore.

Step 3) Let @CinCameron20 post his proposed upgrades to the top tiers. Since the result impacts the gap between them and God tiers anyway. Either the God Tier scaling will be dependant on the high tiers or it will effect how much of an outlier 6-B truly is.

Step 3 B) check the validity of 6-C= and High 6-C feats. By then it should have enough time to figure out one way or another if Kaido clouds fit.

Step 4) Revisit this discussion with an upgraded high tiers that will one way or another impact results.

@Damage3245 how does that sound?
 
If we can update the God Tier profiles to the proposition of 6-C for most of the God Tiers, and 6-C, possibly 6-B for Whitebeard/Blackbeard, then this thread could be closed.
 
@Damage3245

When I said that I wanted the Admirals to get a "Likely 6-C/Likely higher" tier, it wasn't just because "Oh, there's no way the Admirals are that weak". It was more so to acknowledge the feats they do have against Whitebeard which are being dismissed for the flimsiest of reasons. However, your current proposal is infinitely better than what we currently have, so I really am not against it at all.

I would like to point out that if the Admirals don't scale to WB, then I'll probably make/or help make a CRT to downgrade Shanks to "At least High 7-A", because clashing with a casual WB once certainly isn't more impressive or conclusive than everything the Admirals have done to WB. Of course, blocking a strike from Akainu that's meant for Cobi certainly doesn't cut it either.
This is NOT spite, it's just addressing a blatant double standard. Believe me, I wholeheartedly think Shanks does scale, but if we're subjecting other characters to such extreme scrutiny, then I don't see why certain characters should be exempt.
 
Damage3245 said:
If we can update the God Tier profiles to the proposition of 6-C for most of the God Tiers, and 6-C, possibly 6-B for Whitebeard/Blackbeard, then this thread could be closed.
Click to expand...
No because your scaling is off regarding shanks and Kaito, and you haven't addressed a solution with all this derailment going on. Also what is the point of 6-C scaling off high tiers when the high tiers will change?
 
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