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One Piece CRT: Kuzan Tiering Issues

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@Antvasima; but some of the characters will need updating due to the scaling issues brought up in this thread.

We can't scale Aokiji's ice manipulation to his feat of blocking a quake with Haki.
 
Given that Akainu was demonstrated as fully capable of killing Whitebeard when he burned half of the latter's face off in a single blow, right through his haki force shield, I think that the demonstration of the three admirals together negating Whitebeard's power was legitimate.
 
Whitebeard never demonstrated defensive Haki in that instance, Ant. Nor does his Haki have a rating.

Further, Akainu utilized Durability Negation in the entirety of their fight. Not once did he overpower a single quake, nor meaningfully engage with one beyond being taken out in two hits for a sizable time by a near death Whitebeard.

The scaling does not work for the reasons I list in my OP and for the numerous explanation given in this thread
 
> I think that the demonstration of the three admirals together negating Whitebeard's power was legitimate

Even so that is a purely defensive feat, certain characters shouldn't be scaling to Low 6-B AP based off of that.
 
Defensive haki is always activated full force proportionately to the individual's raw power during battle for highly skilled users such as Whitebeard. Akainu still caused very severe damage in a single strike, and by teaming up with two almost as strong characters he overpowered Whitebeard's quake with limited effort.
 
Somebody should ask CinCameron20 to comment here. I think that this thread risks to completely mess up our One Piece scaling.
 
Armament Haki is definitively not what you just claimed. I insist on you providing evidence of such an outlandish assertion, and further, that Whitebeard, whilst dying, was maintaining his Haki at such a level.

This is reaching to an extreme
 
You're ignoring distinct evidence here Ant. Nothing is wrong with the scaling at all.
 
Antvasima said:
Somebody should ask CinCameron20 to comment here. I think that this thread risks to completely mess up our One Piece scaling.
Click to expand...
Antvasima; something being upgraded or downgraded doesn't necessarily "mess up" scaling. It just makes it different.
 
Also. Cin already commented and did not disagree on the evidence in the slightest. Nobody can disagree or argue the evidence in any factual basis with good intent. Cins ONLY problem was with insinuating Doflamingo isnt on par with admirals. My solution keeps them scaled to the same tiering.

Theres zero issue here and this seems to be an immense overreaction to accuracy being maintained with as much objectivity as possible
 
I don't have the time to search for scans, but as far as I remember when Whitebeard and Roger clashed in a recent chapter, their attacks were unable to cause any damage past each other's force fields. You do have a point that Whitebeard was badly damaged at the time Akainu punched half his face off though.

Nevertheless, Cameron and Calaca are our main One Piece experts. I would much prefer to see what they think.
 
Both persons are in this thread and have offered agreement with the scaling needing to be reworked, or at the least are neutral.

You dont need an expert to verify objective fact based in how powers interact per wiki approved profiles, and how Durability Negation cannot meaningfully scale to AP when used to harm someone of a higher tier. Honestly I think my own legwork here is self sufficient and speaks to it's own merits
 
I do not think that Akainu has durability negation against Haki.

Anyway, if The Calaca and CinCameron20 consider this acceptable, I suppose that I can go back to being neutral then.
 
I dont believe he does either, I entirely agree. However his first blow against Whitebeard is when the latter suffered what appears to be a heart attack, and then hits Whitebeard once again after hes been dying for a while. Heck, Squard was able to hurt Whitebeard and Marco commented that ordinarily that never would have connected, so I just generally doubt Whitebeard was defensively using Haki almost ever (he took hundreds of bullets and dozens of cannonballs after all, and I do not believe you would argue theyre 6B)
 
About Durability Negation and the Admirals, i think we should reconsidered the reasoning for givim them DN, as they are seriously flawed in my opinion.

- Akainu's reason is that in the Vivre Card its stated that his magma is capable to melting objects/people, but i hope that everyone here is smart enough to realize that this is something that natural magma is capable to do, and yet most Magma Manipulation users doesn't automatically get DN.

- Kizaru's reason is that this is how laser work (somehow) and that its stated in the relative page, but this isn't true in Laser/Light Beam Dodging Feats nothing even closely remote to that is stated.

- Aokiji's reason is because he can freeze people with his touch, and yet just like with Akainu other characters have display similar capacitites with their Ice powers but they still don't have any Durability Negation.
 
That's a separate CRT entirely Stefano and would be something that you were already redirected to the temperature and freezing ongoing lengthy Staff discussion over
 
@Stefano heat in general is able to do so. However, the way fiction treats heat disproves this and makes it unapplicable. In fact, the way we treat AP and Durability makes any 8-C durable enough to survive the Sun surface's heat. Akainu, while being completely outclassed against a bloodlusted Newgate could phase through his skin, flesh and bone with a single punch.

That, following with his VC DB stating that he has an easier time Phasing through people with it, support DN.

As for Kizaru, I agree. I was neutral about it so I don't mind if he loses it.

About Aokiji, no, he absolutely deserves DN. It's not our fault that other characters don't display the same feats. In fact, if they are able to perform similar feats, they totally should get DN via frostbite. It's their mistake not our if they don't add it to other Ice users with such abilities.
 
@Stefano - We literally see Akainu melt steel, flesh, and bone upon contact. What more proof do you even need? Also, Jinbe caught his punch, but his arm was still scorched upon simply touching it.

Aokiji freezing people... Frostbite (noted to be a threat upon his introduction), possible suffocation (via encasing people in ice), stopping bodily functions (Luffy and Robin's hearts were stopped shortly after being frozen) are all Dura negating.

Kizaru's beams have phased through everything in canon, and appear to be heat-based as well. I've yet to remember a single case where even a Haki user has blocked his beams.
 
The Calaca said:
@Stefano heat in general is able to do so. However, the way fiction treats heat disproves this and makes it unapplicable. In fact, the way we treat AP and Durability makes any 8-C durable enough to survive the Sun surface's heat. Akainu, while being completely outclassed against a bloodlusted Newgate could phase through his skin, flesh and bone with a single punch.
Click to expand...
Wouldn't that just be Akainu having more than enough AP (by producing enough heat) to badly wound Whitebeard, rather that his magma is able to bypass durability? That usually is what we assume when we had to deal with such feats.

The Calaca said:
About Aokiji, no, he absolutely deserves DN. It's not our fault that other characters don't display the same feats. In fact, if they are able to perform similar feats, they totally should get DN via frostbite. It's their mistake not our if they don't add it to other Ice users with such abilities.
Click to expand...
As long other characters (who had display to be able to freeze people) start to get DN for the same reasons, then i don't have any problem, although i think Limited Durability Negation would be more correct in this case, since it isn't like Absolute Zero.
 
It should only be Akainu and Kzaru with DN since they have the reasoning and the feats. Kuzan's powers were NOT able to harm WB. Therefore no feat for him. Akainu has the databook, Kizaru has the nature of lasers, but Kuzan ???

Frostbte is not actually DN as much as Stat reduction. I don't have time to look up all the manga chapters to link right now so I'll just mention fights

Toshiro VS Shawlong. Shawlong tanks Toshiro's ice until the latter gets a 5x boost in raw power. At which point Shawlong is completely destroyed.

Toshiro VS Yammy & Luppi. Toshiro's ice is again tanked with a laugh. Toshiro notes he needs the power boost from Bankai, which he proves by using Bankai on a stronger Arrancar to greater effect.

Toshiro VS Haribel. Toshiro uses the same move he used on Luppi on a Stronger arrancar. She's too powerful so he stops holding back his "most basic and powerful technique" which succeeds in sealing her, but causing no damage.

In every example a strength difference decides how much a character was affected by the ice. It seems no different in One Piece as Jozu is<<Kuzan so he got destroyed, while Duffy<=Kuzan so he got off without any big damage.
 
I have no clue why you're using a universe wherein Reishi determines the efficacy of esoteric abilities to compare to One Piece.

I actually have no clue why this is even the venue of discussion, we are not removing Durability Negation from the Admirals, any of them. Even if it were to be successful, it wouldn't alter anything in my discussion since this is A SINGLE PIECE OF EVIDENCE out of four total as to why the re-tiering needs to occur.

Why come swinging with downgrades in an attempt to combat.....downgrades? And why do so improperly? Take it to the Freezing and Temperature Staff Discussion if you have issues with how energy/heat are treated on the wiki, I earnestly urge Dr. Fix and Stefano to do so if they fervently believe what they're espousing.
 
No, heat is treated as energy and can be translated to joules which is our universal unit value for AP. If Akainu doesn't do it because his magma has DN then he totally scales to Whitebeard for being able to perform such massive injuries on him.

Akainu <<< Whitebeard. Him phasing through his body would be inconsistent if it weren't for the VC stating that his magma can do that easier. So we have this statement and a feat of him affecting someone considerably stronger than him.

AZ has been debunked to be DN. And with the amount of things Cin listed that Kuzan does + the fact that when he freezes someone the durability of the character falls so deep that they can be broken by falling by their own weight like glass. That alone deserves full DN.

@Xulrev Well, tbf, the future of the Admirals' DN would decide if they scale to WB or not. It's kinda relevant, but I agree that it's mostly besides the main point.
 
@Calaca

They'd scale to a dying Whitebeard I suppose, as I point out. But even then still not the quake calc, unfortunately.

Honestly once Wano pops off we will get the solid scaling we need imho
 
Like I said, if it's such an issue, we can downgrade the Admirals to "At least 6-C (Probably > Doflamingo... i would list others but there's no reason to), Possibly Low 6-B (Current reasoning and it would be confusing for the Admirals to even threaten WB if they were THAT much weaker than him)"
 
That's my concern. Scaling them to a dying WB would lead to no conclusions as we don't know where to put him to begin with without falling on absurd assumptions.
 
The Admirals are weaker than him, but not absurdly so obviously. In his old age his Haki simply was not what it used to be, as evidenced by guns and cannons being able to hit him by the hundreds (combined), and the impalement center-mass by Squard combined with his illness weakened him significantly.

Scaling the Admirals to Whitebeard's full quake power is, itself, an absurd assumption as my OP points out factually. The attack in question was a point-blank attack against John Giant and the side-effect of it hitting John Giant is what the Admirals block anyway. Further, again, Goken doesn't scale 1-to-1 with anything tangible we can scale the Admirals from.

Downgrading them 'Likely/At least High 7-A' would be the best bet for now since that's scaling them to what we know Luffy and Doffy were capable of when going all-out.

Any further discussion is going in circles at this point and ignoring facts to preserve some pre-disposed notion of 'no conclusions' or 'messy profiles' when we already have the stable scaling for every profile I list, for the precise same reasons as before, except now we would be going from actual calcs that actually scale with no issues whatsoever for them.
 
That's what I said up above Prince. We will be getting new feats. The War of the Throne is damn near upon us, and Blackbeard has the Gura Gura no Mi after all.

I'm suggesting these tiering alterations solely for accuracy's sake until we get better things to go off of
 
@Xulrev; I think there is enough agreement to begin with the changes you proposed up above.
 
Shouldn't Akainu keep low 6B to 6B dura for tanking whitebeard's quakes at point blank range despite being caught off guard ?
 
Why does Whitebeards physical regular attacks scale to his quakes? He's been effected and harmed by those weaker than him even those without durability negation.
 
This might be unrelated to the thread but shouldn't Luffy and the Yonko commanders still scale to 6-C since Luffy's Gear four is three times stronger than gear third? With Gear third scaling to Fujitora thus Gear fourth should be 5.9 Gigatons if I'm not mistaken and that's 6-C.
 
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