One Piece - 6-C revision

[Damage3245]

We're just waiting on the Pica revisions to be finished up. There isn't much point in bumping the thread yet.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

 

[Eminiteable]

Bump pica revisions are finished can this come to a conclusion

 

[Damage3245]

I'm still in opposition to the proposed upgrades, for the reasoning mentioned up above.

 

[CinCameron20]

@Damage - The matter is that if we are using the 3x Multiplier, even suggesting Luffy is not = 1.9GT w/ Gear 2nd, he's STILL comparable for fighting Fujitora, therefore he's still around if not slightly below 5.7 GT of TNT, which IS 6-C.

1 Gigaton LITERALLY COMES FROM NOTHING. Luffy scales to defeating the Black-Knight (And he should also scale from battling Fujitora on-panel and off-panel with it), which the AP scales from hurting Luffy, and Luffy is shown stopping its attacks with his own before later defeating it with Jet Gatling.

 

[Damage3245]

Luffy's durability does not scale to 1.9 Gigatons from his clash with Fujitora, and there are other ways of scaling the Black Knight such as from Trafalgar Law.

And we've pointed out issues in trying to scale from the Black Knight's durability given its inconsistencies.

 

[CinCameron20]

...

Luffy's Durability comes from taking hits from Issho. Therefore 1.9 Gigatons whether or not you disagree. It's been accepted.

Black Knight scales from Law AND Luffy, just that the latter matters more because he's the higher value.

Luffy overpowered the Black Knight on panel and defeated it off panel with Gear 2nd.

Luffy also pressured Fujitora on-panel with Gear 2nd.

Therefore: Issho AP -> Luffy Dura -> BK's AP -> G2 Luffy's AP. And also Fujitora's AP -> G2 Luffy's AP.

 

[Damage3245]

Sorry, that has definitely not been accepted. Taking hits from Issho does not mean scaling the full value of his 1.9 Gigaton calc.

I am fully against scaling Gear 2 Luffy's AP to Issho's AP. That introduces a lot more scaling issues than it solves, when you considerer all of the characters that Luffy has hit with his Gear 2.

You'd end up scaling so many characters to Large Mountain level.

 

[CinCameron20]

Oh you mean like Gladius? No. Withstanding a casual strike while still suffering damage is not enough to suggest he would scale, especially since he does not ever take a hit from such a character of that tier afterwards and was soundly beaten by characters significantly below Luffy in the first place.

Also, other cases include characters with no profiles, or characters who fought Luffy immediately after fighting Cracker, taking a beating from Sanji, and starving.

 

[Damage3245]

> Oh you mean like Gladius?

Among several others. The method of scaling you're proposing is a slippery slope.

 

[Eminiteable]

I have to agree the baseline for Luffy seems to come from nowhere, I think it would be more accurate to just say G3 Luffy < 1.9 Gigatons. Thus yes still 6-C but staying consistent with Fuji being some deal superior to Luffy.

 

[Antvasima]

I agree with CinCameron20.

Also, Pica's golem should be updated with the calculated statistics for it.

 

[Damage3245]

@Antvasima; CinCameron's proposal would introduce a lot more scaling issues that it would fix.

We shouldn't be using Luffy's sole brief fight with Fujitora to determine his ratings when he has been involved in so many more fights and has several more feats than just that.

It is trying to force the scaling to use Fujitora's Large Mountain level feat simply because it is the highest feat available.

Context matters; not just scaling a character to the most powerful feat performed by another character.

 

[Antvasima]

Why not? We generally scale from the highest calculated feats if they are not heavily contradicted or complete outliers.

 

[Eminiteable]

It's also not just from Fujitora like Cin mentions.

 

[Damage3245]

Why not? We generally scale from the highest calculated feats if they are not heavily contradicted or complete outliers.

Context and consistency are the most important things to me. When Luffy was hit by an gravity attack from Fujitora that sent him flying, it was calced that the attack was 7-A.

Fujitora's High 7-A feat comes solely from the assumption that Fujitora moved all the rubble in Dressrosa across the island in 10 seconds. It's not an attack, and as far as calcs go it isn't a completely solid one since it is just based on an assumed timeframe that could be higher.

We don't have any reason to assume his physical clashes with Luffy are on the same level as this feat. And to then say "Well, Luffy was basically unharmed by this (assumed) 1.9 Gigaton attack from Fujtiroa, but Doflamingo's Black Knight made his lip bleed, then Doflamingo's Black Knight must be 1.9 Gigatons striking strength and 1.9 Gigatons durability. So therefore Luffy has 1.9 Gigaton durability when using Gear 2.

It's a bad method of scaling to basically end up with; a Gear 2 punch from Luffy is as strong as Fujitora transporting the rubble of an entire country in a matter of seconds.

And then consider all of the characters Luffy has hit with Gear 2 attacks and been able to keep fighting; Hody Jones, Don Chinjao, Gladius, Vander Decken, Caeser Clown, etc.

I don't think it makes sense for them to be indirectly scaling to Admiral Fujitora's most powerful feat.

Tl;Dr: Based on the context of the actual feat being calced, and the consistency of Luffy's performances in other fights, I don't think it makes sense to scale Gear 2 Luffy to Fujitora's calc.

 

[Antvasima]

So you basically want us to keep the physical statistics and scale of devil fruit powers separate in this case? I am uncertain, as characters in One Piece are usually able to physically counter them unless they are based on durability negation hax.

I would agree with you in various cases of Weather Manipulation scaling to Striking Strength and similar for other series that do not have as linear power hierarchy scaling as One Piece though.

 

[Damage3245]

In most cases I think that physical statistics and devil fruit powers generally make more sense when split. Enel is pretty clearly more powerful with his devil fruit than without it.

Whitebeard can shake entire islands through the power of his devil fruit, which is a feat that I can't see anyone in One Piece recreating physically.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, other characters can withstand the full force of his or Blackbeard's earthquake-powered strikes, so we end up with attack potency versus area of effect, which is a basic principle of our entire system.

 

[CinCameron20]

@Damage - Luffy and Fujitora have fought on two occasions, and their second fight during the end of the Dressrosa arc was certainly not "brief".

Also, again, Fujitora was using his DF while fighting Luffy. The fact that you would separate Physical and DF AP is irrelevant. You simply will argue that "Fujitora simply used less power" in his DF attacks directed at Luffy with absolutely 0 support to back it up. And a 7-A feat from hundreds of meters away... with an AoE shockwave? You do realize we actually consider the fact that an attack like that will deal less damage to a target that's significantly further from the initial point of impact (being Luffy), right? This really isn't an argument.

Also, you are HEAVILY downplaying the BK. It slashed Luffy's back and stomped his face in which resulted in him coughing up blood (Not his lip to bleed. Outright ridiculous argument. Pretty baffling to make something up like that) then further accumulated damage to him over the course of their off-panel fight. Complete BS to say it "cut his lip" or anything to that effect.

Hody should already scale to G2 Luffy, as they had an extensive fight with Luffy in Gear 2nd using Haki. Chinjao went down in two hits after Luffy stopped using base (Nearly KO'd by a Hawk Rifle despite blocking with Haki, then had his head deformed by the Gear 3rd strike). Gladius is already covered--but you decide to ignore due to your inability to simply read... for the 7th time this topic has been brought up (Getting up from one casual hit suddenly means he scales... wow). Vander Decken has literally no profile and the only characters he has engaged are Luffy and Overdosed Hody--both of which easily wounded him. Caesar Clown is a moot argument since he should already partially scale to Gear 2nd Luffy anyways, but doesn't merely because he got completely demolished by singular attacks that actually connected.

So, Tl;dr: Only Caesar, Overdosed + Monster Hody and Vander have any implication of even partially scaling to this. Also, Fujitora's most "powerful" feat is his 6-C meteorites, not his CASUAL lifting of rubble.

 

[Antvasima]

I think that Cameron makes sense.

 

[Damage3245]

Well, other characters can withstand the full force of his or Blackbeard's earthquake-powered strikes, so we end up with attack potency versus area of effect, which is a basic principle of our entire system.

That's a matter of durability; but aside from that Blackbeards and Whitebeards physical strikes aren't as powerful their earthquakes.

> Also, Fujitora's most "powerful" feat is his 6-C meteorites, not his CASUAL lifting of rubble.

That's an entirely separate matter since not even Fujitora scales to those meteorites.

 

[CinCameron20]

Not a separate matter since you're bringing up his "most powerful attack", which Luffy himself doesn't even scale to regardless. He scales to a feat performed by Fujitora on the fly.

 

[Damage3245]

Not a separate matter since you're bringing up his "most powerful attack", which Luffy himself doesn't even scale to regardless. He scales to a feat performed by Fujitora on the fly.

The meteors are a separate matter.

The best compromise I can agree to is scaling Fujitora's attack on Luffy is to take away the energy required to continue lifting the rubble on Dressrosa and destroy the environment behind Luffy in the attack. If we do that, then we can estimate the amount of energy he used on Luffy.

The result would be that Fujitora's attack scales to 1.192394407 Gigatons.

Luffy's Gear 4 would scale to 3.577183221 Gigatons (Large Mountain level+).

I still think Luffy's Gear 2 would scale below the 1.19 Gigatons.

 

[Dr.Fix]

Well, other characters can withstand the full force of his or Blackbeard's earthquake-powered strikes, so we end up with attack potency versus area of effect, which is a basic principle of our entire system.

That's a matter of durability; but aside from that Blackbeards and Whitebeards physical strikes aren't as powerful their earthquakes.
> Also, Fujitora's most "powerful" feat is his 6-C meteorites, not his CASUAL lifting of rubble.

That's an entirely separate matter since not even Fujitora scales to those meteorites.

Strictly NOT true. Blackbeard tanked a Gura hit but WB was able to draw blood with a swing of his sword.

Gura>Teach Durability>WB's Striking strength>WB's Durability.

 

[Dr.Fix]

Also regarding 6-C I think adding a possibly or likely is okay in combination with at least High 7-A. The latter comes from multiplying Pica's rating as a low-ball, while the former comes from multiplying Issho, albeit not scaling fully.

Gear 2 should stick to 7-A though. BK doesn't have a durability rating and RH negates durability to an extent.

 

[Damage3245]

@Dr. Fix; I can agree to a "At least High 7-A+, possibly 6-C" for Luffy's Gear 4. But that doesn't come from Pica.

 

[Xulrev]

So now that Pica is disproven, we're back to ignoring the entirety of the context of Issho's fight with Luffy to justify inaccurate upgrades?

This really doesn't even end, does it.

Issho's Raging Tiger has a calc'd rating. An esoteric usage of Fujitora's Devil's Fruit has an entirely separate rating.

Why in the actual name of Gold Roger's treasure would we assume that the separate esoteric lifting ability of gravity would apply and overcome the calc'd Raging Tiger attack he has actually used against Luffy? Honestly, even utilizing that calc of lifting is altogether wrong, Fujitora turning off gravity isn't applying a force, it's inverting gravity, I have zero clue how that's applicable as anything beyond 'suddenly you're experiencing gravity in the opposite direction'.

The clashes versus Luffy scale to Raging Tiger and that's literally it. So the most you can get is 330 megatons in Gear 4 if you presume Luffy is 3x his Gear 3 AP.

 

[The_Calaca]

I love how Damage uses characters like Gladius as an argument to not accept upgrades. This argument is so old and dumb that it's funny.

We have told you several times that these revisions only affect ratings of some characters, while the scaling remain the same. We aren't scaling Gladius to any form of Luffy, and we have no reason to do so. Quit with this argument. If you have nothing else to say, then just quit. But bringing old arguments that were never even discussed is fallacious and diverts the point.

 

[Damage3245]

@Calaca; it is funny how scaling can work sometimes on this site when we're trying to avoid giving bad ratings out.

Character A gives Character B a tiny scratch. --> "Character A fully scales to Character B's durability."

Character B is kicked by Character A and gets back up a few moments later --> "Character B's durability in no way scales to Character A".

Anyway, I have responded to other points besides that.

 

[The_Calaca]

So you're going to divert the point instead of recognizing your recurrent mistake. Got it.

It seems you don't like the idea of being called out, yet you do everything to get that regardless.

Anyway, I'm not going to argue about this. I have another revisions to do that you will surely love.

I agree with the revision. Both fought evenly for an unknown timeframe.

 

[Damage3245]

What is with the needlessly antagonistic tone?

I'm pointing out a legitimate flaw, and you're dismissing as someone who doesn't like being called out...?

 

[The_Calaca]

Such flaw isn't even considered. We have discussed tens of times in the past and the result is always the same. Why do you bother bringing that "flaw" to the table when everyone agrees that those characters won't scale to Luffy?

We don't scale Gladius or other characters to him. Heck, we don't even scale Chinjao, who has way better feats against Luffy than Gladius has. But for some reason you have the need to point an obvious topic over and over when you're trying to debunk a CRT.

 

[Damage3245]

I just think it's worth pointing out how loose we can be in what we decide actually counts as someone scaling to something. If you're fine with it, that's whatever, but it is an inconsistency in general.

Anyway, I've given my counter-proposal so I'll wait to see what Cin says.

 

[The_Prince_of_Counters]

If Luffy took attacks from Fujitora while in base form then at the very least the Durability for Gear Fourth should be 6-C. This is a pretty simple revision so I'll have to agree with the pro-side for the time being.

 

[Damage3245]

@Prince of Counters; did you see my alternative proposal?

 

[CinCameron20]

@Calaca; Character A gives Character B a tiny scratch. --> "Character A fully scales to Character B's durability."

Character B is kicked by Character A and gets back up a few moments later --> "Character B's durability in no way scales to Character A".

More like:

Character A gives Character B a deep lashing from one attack, then causes him to bleed from a kick to the face, then proceeds hurt him some more off panel.

Therefore A scales to B

Vs

Character B takes a hit from a dismissive Character A and is still hurt despite getting up shortly after.

Also, regarding the scaling, your math is wrong: 1.523044407 Gigatons is the result of Fujitora's AP if we're excluding the energy needed to keep the rubble uplifted. Luffy would still be 6-C at the end of the day.

Regarding Gear 2nd Luffy, of course I don't think he is EQUAL to Fujitora, but he's been shown to be capable of pressuring him. Therefore he'd be "Likely High 7-A" as in "Likely 1.52 GT" or "At most 1.52 GT".

3x Multiplier = 4.56 GT or 6-C anyways.

However, I disagree and would scale Luffy fully to Fujitora due to the previous arguments in other threads. You also disregarded this scaling anyways.

 

[Damage3245]

@CinCameron; I do think it is better without that scaling, but my suggestion is a compromise designed to help resolve this.

We take away the energy required to sustain the rubble in the air, and the energy that went into destroying the environment in Fujitora's attack. That gets us the 1.19 Gigatons.

This seems like the fairest compromise to me.

 

[Eminiteable]

Cin and Cal make the most sense.

 

[CinCameron20]

This isn't about fairness and compromise. It's about what should be done based on the standards of the wiki.

If Character A (Luffy) can match the attacks and successfully block an incoming assault from Character B (Fuji), whose ability is shown performing High 7-A energy without resorting to some special situatio (charge-ups, sacrifice, etc), without giving ground, let alone suffering damage (Luffy and Fuji each sustained incredibly superficial injuries from an extended battle that lasted at least minutes with no pause), then Character A would scale to Character B, despite the opposing argument that "Character B is arguably the superior combatant" as there is no implication to suggest this as their battle was inconclusive and Character A was prevented from engaging further, and actually put up a serious resistance for an extended period (At least minutes).

"We take away the energy required to sustain the rubble in the air, and the energy that went into destroying the environment in Fujitora's attack. That gets us the 1.19 Gigatons"

Preposterous. If it were a situation where Luffy only took that single hit and tanked it outside of the AoE that shattered the rock, I would whole-heartedly agree. But this is simply not something that can be argued as Luffy intercepted other attacks on panel and was not forced back. You can argue that Ferocious Tiger is stronger than a normal strike because "It is a named attack", but even if this is true (I believe so), the rubble lifting feat itself was a casual display of power--and definitely not a named ability.

• Point is, Ferocious Tiger is not the only attack Luffy blocked or clashed with and their battle went on off-panel and was regarded by the spectators to be a "serious fight".

I'm sticking with my final opinion. The ONLY thing I'd agree with is simply subtracting the PE of the feat because Fuji would have to apply constant energy to keep it afloat, meaning Luffy would still be 1.52 GT w/ Gear 3rd and comparable with Gear 2nd, and thus still be 6-C With Bound Man

Snake-Man and Tank-Man is a matter I'd like to discuss tbh.