One Piece - 6-C revision

[Damage3245]

That's a lot to process and respond to, and I'm pretty sure you've gotten a few of my points wrong.

I'll write up a response when I can in the morning, please be patient.

 

[CinCameron20]

Except the High 7-A comes from Fujitora -> Luffy -3x> Gear 4th Luffy -> Kata/Cracker/Doflamingo in the first place. Therefore Aokiji and Akainu follow that chain and their 7-A/6-B mentions are redundant as the former is a lower value and the latter needs further explanation for viewers who are definitely not going to look for/find a discussion thread that occurred a while ago.

It's POINTLESS to have a bunch of information on a page that's going to simply que a new person to make a CRT thread or ask questions.

Doffy does not scale to Aokiji (unless of course that's yet another page that has been lazily touched upon after major revisions from the Low 6-B downgrade)

 

[Xulrev]

Except the High 7-A comes from Fujitora -> Luffy -3x> Gear 4th Luffy -> Kata/Cracker/Doflamingo in the first place. Therefore Aokiji and Akainu follow that chain and their 7-A/6-B mentions are redundant as the former is a lower value and the latter needs further explanation for viewers who are definitely not going to look for/find a discussion thread that occurred a while ago.
It's POINTLESS to have a bunch of information on a page that's going to simply que a new person to make a CRT thread or ask questions.

Doffy does not scale to Aokiji

It's simply how editing is done on the wiki; that seems to be a CRT issue on how information is presented, since nothing requires every change to be justified via the linking of the relevant CRT in question.

The inclusion of every feat, however, is definitely a necessity for an indexing wiki. Their inclusion causing confusion isn't for this thread, realistically, however, so I've no clue why this is even being brought up. It's not the time nor place, I'd suggest the general discussion thread or a separate CRT on resolving this matter since there's a lot of sidetracking going on now

 

[Eminiteable]

Had a read through, Cin's right here Gear third should scale to 1.52 Gigatons and Gear second scaling below that. Doffy'a durability should be 6-C and AP "likely 6-C with Awakening" or just plain 6-C with awakening.

 

[Antvasima]

I also think that Cin makes good points.

 

[Damage3245]

I think Cin makes some fair arguments as well, but I have issues with his conclusion.

> Assumption 1) Doflamingo isn't counting Gear 3rd.

Doflamingo simply witnessing an attack isn't going to give him an accurate indication of power. What exactly did he witness? He saw a Gear 3 punch fail to break through his Spiderweb and another Gear 3 punch scrape the roof of the royal palace.

The only thing we know for sure is that Gear 4 is more powerful than Gear 3.

> Assumption 2) Gear 2nd Luffy should not scale to Fujitora.

Gear 2 Luffy never landed a hit on Fujitora on-panel. It is an assumption that he was able to damage Fujitora at all with it, and a bit of an inconsistency to assume Gear 2 could do remotely the same level of damage considering that Gear 3 is supposed to be significantly more powerful than Gear 2 and yet all Gear 3 managed to accomplish was a virtually non-existent bruise.

> Assumption 3) Fujitora's normal attacks w/ DF are inferior to his Rubble feat, which in turn is equal to his Ferocious Tiger.

It's not an opinion, it is rudimentary powerscaling.

His rubble feat is the maximum value we can use for scaling to his attacks; and the most powerful attack he used against Luffy was the Ferocious Tiger. Therefore his other attacks that he used are weaker than it, and therefore we can consider them to be weaker than his rubble feat.

> We also see that Luffy has sustained several bruises, suggesting that he took attacks from Fujitora directly long before Ferocious Tiger came into play.

There isn't any reason why Luffy couldn't be bruised from weaker attacks, if he wasn't protecting himself from Haki at the time.

> As stated and proven numerous times, Luffy has taken hits from Fujitora, clashed with him, and no-sold the Ferocious Tiger (Pretty certain he only went flying because... it's gravity). Therefore his durability would also scale from 1.52GT.

1.52 Gigatons... until we remember the environmental damage that was also caused by the attack. If the full 1.52 Gigatons was tanked by Luffy directly, the remaining energy wouldn't have destroyed the nearby mountains. So to account for this, by taking away the energy that went into environmental damage, we arrive at 1.19 Gigatons.

This isn't an arbitrary value; this is the result of taking in all of the context surrounding the feat:

• We scale the most powerful attack to Fujitora's most powerful showing, and take into account the energy that wouldn't by hitting the Luffy, and we arrive at a final value of 1.19 Gigatons which can be used for scaling.

Since the possibility remains that it could be higher, even though 1.19 Gigatons is the solid number that we scale from, we can ammend it with a possibly/likely higher on the end.

As for Doflamingo's scaling, that's a whole other conversation and I'm leaning towards agreeing with Dr. Fix for now, at least as far as AP goes.

 

[Dr.Fix]

@Cin you are right in that this has already been discussed to death. As such I will not indulge your walls of text. I rather keep it consciese on the key points.

1) As you pointed out off-panel means nothing. I won't indulge unprovable theories

2) Weakened state sounds like a bad record at this point.

a) You keep forgetting the more damaged Duffy is the more poorly it reflects on him being that way from 7-A Law.

b) it is also an argument from ignorance. You cannot prove that Duffy is powerful enough to compete with Gear 4, your argument is you think he can because he was weakened.

c) I do not care how you spin it because at the end of the day I take Oda's words far more creditable than any possibly bias analysis. Oda clearly writes both Luffy and Duffy are in bad shape and that it is equal.

3) Less important since it ties to #1 but saying this anyway. If Luffy actually did evade and that is a sign of weakness it looks much worse on Duffy. I can't recall Luffy in Gear 4 dodging but I do recall that pretty much anytime faced with an attacl Duffy either tried to dodged or block.

4) Your definitions of blocking are exaggerated. If Luffy had mangled Duffy's arm the difference between them would be massive, multiples difference. Simply the act of being pushed back is enough to show a difference and Duffy was damaged enough to be confused as KO after a few hits. Just because the damage isn't extremely apparent doesn't mean it is not happening.

Again @Ci, @Damage, @Ant, remember the numbers here. Duffy would be>1.9 &<4.5 gigatons. that's not enough difference for the kind of damage you expect to happen. Meanwhile If Duffy were 4.3 to Luffy's 4.5 you'd expect them to basically be matching each other perfectly. Then consider what this means when he is facing Law, Sanji, Luffy-Gear4. Now if Luffy had a jump to 15 Gigatons then I could maybe see island level Duffy with that breath of margin. These margins just do not support @Cin's beleifs.

 

[Damage3245]

@Dr. Fix; you are correct that Gear 4 Luffy dodging Doflamingo's attacks isn't good evidence for Doflamingo being comparable to him. Doffy has dodged Gear 2 and Gear 3 attacks before.

 

[Antvasima]

I suppose that I am neutral then.

 

[Xulrev]

Doflamingo outright never harms Gear 4 Luffy, and Gear 4 Luffy easily evades most if not all his attacks.

Even with Awakening, Doflamingo barely manages to injure base Luffy so scaling him to Gear 4 in AP would be quite ludicrous, since that'd recursively scale to Base Luffy.

His strings fail to restrict Gear 4 Luffy. His strings fail to block any substantive attack from Gear 4 Luffy. He never, NEVER, damages Gear 4 Luffy. The only reason Doffy survives the encounter as long as he does is that he has an excessive amount of ways he's assailing Luffy which keeps him on his toes since it's literally an entire town of building-turned-string Luffy is evading.

Also. Even using Doflamingo's statement of 'raising his power several times beyond its limit' has issues; Doflamingo doesn't possess Information Analysis of any sort, he has never been hit by Luffy's full power in Gear 3, only Gear 2, so why do we presume he knows this at all and isn't simply pointing out the obvious fact of 'spring/elastic-based attacks hit A LOT harder when imbued with Haki like this guy kicking my ass is doing'?

There's a lot of stretches(heh) all around here

 

[AstralKing7]

^sounds like u think Luffy is jsut outright stronger than Doffy

 

[Xulrev]

^sounds like u think Luffy is jsut outright stronger than Doffy

In Gear 4?

No I don't think he is, I know he is because the feats and narrative show us as much. Gear 4 Luffy thrashes Doflamingo. Doflamingo never harms Gear 4 Luffy. In no conscionable way can you scale someone who gets their ass handed to them and can't put a scratch on their foe, to said foe.

 

[CinCameron20]

>Doflamingo outright never harms Gear 4 Luffy, and Gear 4 Luffy easily evades most if not all his attacks.

We never see him harm Gear 4th Luffy because as seen in the manga, the moment Doflamingo uses Awakening, there's a 20 minute time-skip, and we're focused almost entirely on King Riku's speech to the people with the fight going on in the background.

We see literally 3 panels of fighting before the Leo Bazooka double page, which is an insignificant amount of the fight.

>Even with Awakening, Doflamingo barely manages to injure base Luffy so scaling him to Gear 4 in AP would be quite ludicrous, since that'd recursively scale to Base Luffy.

Luffy was using Haki, which by nature negates DF attacks, and it's pretty obvious that both Luffy and Doflamingo are on their last leg. Using this one "anti-feat" to suggest Doflamingo is just at this PL in general is ridiculous when it contradicts his earlier showings. He gradually got weaker as the fight went on because he kept soaking damage.

>His strings fail to restrict Gear 4 Luffy. His strings fail to block any substantive attack from Gear 4 Luffy. He never, NEVER, damages Gear 4 Luffy. The only reason Doffy survives the encounter as long as he does is that he has an excessive amount of ways he's assailing Luffy which keeps him on his toes since it's literally an entire town of building-turned-string Luffy is evading.

His threads blocked a double culverin attack (so basically two attacks at once), then he holds his own for 20 minutes off-panel. I don't deny Doflamingo is inferior in power to Bound Man from what we've seen, but if he were so weak, how come Luffy couldn't just power through all of his attacks and then just KO him.

>Also. Even using Doflamingo's statement of 'raising his power several times beyond its limit' has issues; Doflamingo doesn't possess Information Analysis of any sort, he has never been hit by Luffy's full power in Gear 3, only Gear 2, so why do we presume he knows this at all and isn't simply pointing out the obvious fact of 'spring/elastic-based attacks hit A LOT harder when imbued with Haki like this guy kicking my ass is doing'?

Again, Doflamingo experiences Gear 3rd, blocks an attack, and Luffy clearly can't land a hit with Gear 3rd anyways. Also, he literally says his attack power is increased several times over its limit.

Sadly, it all comes down to the fact that the battle went off-panel until Gear 4th was going to run out and Luffy seemingly defeated Doflamingo. RIP

 

[Damage3245]

I will say that Oda does have a bad track record by now of putting stuff off-panel. It's pretty annoying.

 

[CinCameron20]

Also, i'm dealing with 3 walls of text. I'm just going to wait a bit.

Also this topic isn't (currently) about the scaling.

It's about making Luffy 6-C or not. Scaling can come after this is decided.

 

[CinCameron20]

@Fix

1) Except Doflamingo wouldn't have been able to hold out so long if he was just too weak to resist Gear 4th, and he actually is shown taking the hits.

2) Law's tier has nothing to do with the fact he negates durability w/ his DF. Fact of the matter is that Law stabbed him twice, and caused an explosion that would have killed Doflamingo within his body. Luffy then points out the irony in Doflamingo's mockery of his condition, noting that he's in bad shape from all Law did to him.

• Seriously, there's such a disparity between Doflamingo's initial performances against Luffy to the later ones. I am pretty certain people undersell how much damage Doflamingo sustained from Gamma Knife alone just because "Oh stitching. He's back to 100% now". Yeah, he got better, but it still affected his performance considerably.
  • Chapter 745: Gear 2nd Luffy is taken out like nothing.
  • Chapter 760: Taken out like nothing again.
  • Chapter 780: Gear 3rd Luffy is no-sold by the threads, Gear 2nd can't even touch Doflamingo--fight is interrupted by Law's "death". Granted, Luffy is the most injured of the two at this point, yet nothing really would have changed from before.
  • Chapter 781: The Gamma Knife happens
  • Chapter 782: Doflamingo takes damage from Luffy 1v1 for the first time, but still manages to overpower him with some struggle.
  • Chapter 783: It's still a contest, but Doflamingo is still the dominant fighter.
  • Chapter 784/5: Doflamingo takes a beating from Gear 4th.
  • Chapter 790: Doflamingo's just at his weakest at this point, but still overwhelms Luffy w/out G4.
• Pretty drastic difference tbh.

3) If I said it was a sign of weakness, that's on me and I didn't mean it like that, but it would imply Doflamingo's attacks are threatening and would hurt Luffy. As for "Doflamingo evading", He has outright blocked Gear 2nd and 3rd attacks. He only ever evaded a Grizzly Magnum (Which is probably one of Luffy's strongest Gear 3rd attacks) and a Hawk Gatling--both of which possessing Haki.

4) Doflamingo was never KO'd until KKG hit him. If he fell unconscious, then the Bird-Cage would have vanished. He was conscious after Leo Bazooka. He just couldn't move due to being stunned. We see his head lifting slowly while Luffy was trying to charge at him with a Kong Gun.

• Also, Doflamingo's arm wasn't even damaged is the point i'm trying to make. Any impact made to his torso would obviously harm him because he took Gamma Knife literally minutes ago and can't keep the damage contained with every impact (Hence why every gut-punch by Luffy from Chapter 782 onwards left him reeling. He kept going for the stomach, which was Doffy's weak point thanks to Law). He got up from a Kong Gun just fine, took a Rhino Schneider, Took a Culverin, and he only went down temporarily from Leo Bazooka because it hit him in the stomach. He couldn't block it fast enough.

Luffy isn't just barely 4.5 GT. He would be at LEAST that value. Keep in mind the 3x is a low end, and we can not assume higher without exaggerating. So Luffy would be =/>4.5GT while Doflamingo would be <4.5GT. Still Likely 6-C.

But I'd like to save this particular topic for later, as I don't think anyone who has fought Bound Man (except Kaido) is actually equal or superior to him in power, and defeated him through specific tactics. (Doflamingo just outlasted the transformation, Cracker stayed behind his soldiers, Katakuri relied on Future-sight and kept landing hits to whittle him down). If Doflamingo's tier comes under question, the rest of them should as well, as none of them (except anime Cracker... cringe) is shown to match Bound-Man in power. Probably downgraded to "At least High 7-A (> Gear 2nd and 3rd Luffy by A LOT), Likely 6-C (Held their own or just outright hurt Bound-Man over time)

 

[CinCameron20]

@Damage - I wont repeat myself. You're simply suggesting only Ferocious Tiger is = to Rubble and ignoring that Luffy took many other attacks and just undersell it by saying "Oh, they are weaker attacks... and we're only going to scale Fero Tiger to Luffy because I say so."

It's another circle argument, and you wont move from it. Nothing on the Wiki supports your claim.

As far as it would be concerned, Ferocious Tiger = Normal attacks = Rubble feat until proven/suggested otherwise (And I already pointed out that Fero Tiger visibly took more effort than the rest of his feats--including the 1.9 GT one). Ferocious Tiger is just an attack that sends gravity side-ways. It's not claimed to be a more powerful attack.

 

[Dr.Fix]

>>1.52 Gigatons... until we remember the environmental damage that was also caused by the attack. If the full 1.52 Gigatons was tanked by Luffy directly, the remaining energy wouldn't have destroyed the nearby mountains. So to account for this, by taking away the energy that went into environmental damage, we arrive at 1.19 Gigatons.

Are there any cases where DC was removed from a claculation? That seems counter productive to any calcs I've seen. Can't say I agree with this unless there is some substantial prescedence for it.

@Cin I'm not even going to bother dissecting what's wrong with your post right now since it seems were not at the scaling part yet. Suffice to say you are exaggerating certain feats.

 

[Damage3245]

@Dr. Fix; to give a similar example, picture calculating someone's durability when they are close to an explosion. We wouldn't scale then to the full potency of the explosion because if we did that would imply the all of the explosions energy was received directly by them, even though it actually impacts their surroundings too.

 

[Dr.Fix]

I asked for past cases for prescedence; not a hypothetical @Damage.

 

[Damage3245]

Can't recall any off the top of my head but this is a pretty unique scenario when we're not even using the actual calc for Fujitora's attack but trying to his scale his attack to some higher calc.

Do you not agree with the scenario I provided about trying to scale someone's durability from the partial result of a calc? Because it is pretty straight forward and used on the site as explained here. What I'm proposing is essentially the same principle as this.

 

[Dr.Fix]

Your scenario is misrepresentative of the feat in question so no. Without prescedence I favour @Cin's take of 1.5 over @Damage's take of 1.2.

 

[Damage3245]

@Dr. Fix; that's fair but I still think the scenario I've outlined is an accurate assessment of the feat. Environmental damage is a thing, and we are discussing what Luffy's durability scales to.

Especially when there are other factors involved like Luffy's blunt force resistance which would contribute to the gravity affecting him less. (I'm not in favor of Cin's interpretation that we should just assume that Fujitora was using Haki on his gravity).

 

[CinCameron20]

@Damage - My question is why Ferocious Tiger even scales equal to the rubble feat while the rest of Fujitora's attacks on Luffy do not? It seems pretty convenient to downplay him. Nothing on the Wiki supports the idea that only the strongest attack (except Ferocious Tiger is just a side-ways attack... not even noted as being "stronger" than any of his others) scales to a completely different feat.

Yes, i agree with going 1.52GT simply because Fujitora likely expended some of his power to keep the rubble in the air without deactivating his power, but to only scale Luffy to Ferocious Tiger (claiming that the rest of the attacks are weaker by comparison with no support) seems very wonky if they've been in an intense battle (that appears to be pretty much a stalemate) and they've both been connecting hits and taking only light damage, or clashing evenly.

Even if you argue that Fujitora did NOT use Haki on Ferocious Tiger, it doesn't really matter since Luffy's taken plenty hits before hand and both of them clashed equally more than once--suggesting they are equal in power (At least in regards to Gear 3rd. My argument of Gear 2nd still stands since Luffy contested against Fujitora for some time)

@Fix - The only argument I'm making is that Doflamingo's really undersold simply because "he isn't seen damaging Bound-Man" but that's pretty strange to state because we only ever see him throw a single attack at Bound Man before and after the off-panel nonsense (NOT counting God Thread). It's the same regarding Cracker's Durability--because he is NEVER shown actually withstanding a single hit from ANYTHING. He got ONE SHOT. Katakuri's fight also went off-panel w/ Bound man, but at least we got to see something.

 

[Damage3245]

> My question is why Ferocious Tiger even scales equal to the rubble feat while the rest of Fujitora's attacks on Luffy do not?

The rubble feat is Fujitora's most powerful showing of his ability, pretty highly in excess of all his other feats.

It makes the most sense to me that we at most scale his most powerful attack against Luffy to be equal to that (while accounting for other factors which wouldn't contribute towards Luffy's durability).

Likewise Fujitora's significantly less powerful attacks had nowhere near the effect on Luffy as his Ferocious Tiger did. In fact that is decent evidence that Fujitora was in fact holding back with Luffy until that point. He was using significantly less than his full power, and we rate his full power to be 1.9 Gigatons (or 1.5 considering the rubble).

 

[CinCameron20]

Ferocious Tiger had no affect on Luffy outside of sending him side-ways. It didn't damage him.

Also, you clearly didn't read. Ferocious Tiger--again--is an attack regarded as being "side-ways gravity" and it is never once suggested to be a stronger attack by any means.

 

[Damage3245]

Sideways gravity is the mechanism of of how it works; that's not a statement of it only being as strong as every other attack he does, especially when we see it has a very different effect on Luffy while it is blocking.

On a side note, I think I've discovered a potentially better method of scaling one of the things involved in the calc. I'll double-check it and post the results here later today.

 

[CinCameron20]

For the 4th time now, there's no statement indicating it is stronger than his other attacks. There's only ever a statement that it is sending gravity side-ways. Luffy blocking it wont prevent himself from being flung the direction gravity is pulling him, especially given the fact that he was mid-air when it hit.

> The rubble feat is Fujitora's most powerful showing of his ability, pretty highly in excess of all his other feats

Inaccurate, again. The meteor feats (minus the first one) are his strongest feats.

 

[Dr.Fix]

@Cameron that is technically inaccurate

1) Cracker took the compression of Tankman first. The canon ball was actually the release of energy on Luffy's part. So Cracker was actually two-shot but it was from one attack. He scales to his own AP anyway.

Issho's meteor's have been well established as ED. The actual energy (From Issho, not the meteor itself) has never actually been calculated to my knowledge.

 

[CinCameron20]

@Fix

1) Your suggestion that Luffy pulling in Cracker to have been an attack of some kind is wrong. It's quite explicitly showing Luffy pull and grip Cracker in place with his soft texture in Tank-man as he prepares for the actual attack. A hold is not an attack.

2) Be that as it may, it is wrong to state Fujitora's rubble lift is his strongest feat when that is technically false.

 

[Dr.Fix]

1) Clearly you have never wrestled so instead consider looking into compression and suffocation.

2) it is not his strongest in terms of how much damage he can no. It is in terms of his own energy.

 

[Antvasima]

I have to unsubscribe from this thread due to time constraints. You can notify me later via my message wall if you need my help after you have reached a conclusion.

 

[CinCameron20]

1) Luffy was holding him for literal seconds, and the compression LED INTO the Canon-Ball attack because he released all the pressure into one point to send Cracker flying. Suggesting it is "another attack" thus counting it as "Cracker tanked one before getting one-shot" is such an exaggeration.

2) Point still stands. But I'm dropping it because i'm not going into another circle argument.

Anyways, I'd prefer if everyone in the thread just points out their belief on where Luffy scales. 300+ comments is so unnecessary for this type of conversation.

1.52 Gigatons for Gear 3rd and <1.52 Gigatons for Gear 2nd (=/>4.56GT for Bound Man) is my final answer.

 

[Eminiteable]

I support this as well: "1.52 Gigatons for Gear 3rd and <1.52 Gigatons for Gear 2nd (=/>4.56GT for Bound Man)"

 

[Dr.Fix]

Attacks can last seconds, or even less, doesn't disqualify them.

Anyway I agree with @Cin we should just get feedback on which rating to apply

!.52 gigatons (Issho's value minus the minimum to hold up the rubble).

This also means 4.56 Giagtons for Gear 4 (baseline 6-C)

Or

1.2 Gigatons (Issho's value minus the minimum to hold up the rubble AND minus DC shown from ferocious tiger)

Also means 3.6 gigatons for Gear 4 (Mountain (high 7-A) level+)

Either way Gear 2 stays in 7-A range.

 

[Damage3245]

Apologies for the delay everyone but I've been a bit busy over the past couple days. Tomorrow morning I will be able to post my issues with the calc itself and hopefully that will clear the path towards a resolution on this scaling problem.

 

[AstralKing7]

Now there's a problem with the calc???ƒñ¿ƒñ¿

 

[CinCameron20]

Damage loses an argument that's persisting for several threads, so resorts to attempt at a debunk... againx5. Classic.

I'm unsubbing from my own thread and leaving the matter entirely. Can't debate with people like this who just straight up try to find any work-around to get what they want.

 

[Eminiteable]

I think that was what happened with the Zoro Upscaling as well.

 

[Xulrev]

Glad to see people just openly accept personal attacks and others support it.

Disgusting behavior honestly, its shameful anyone even gave kudos to that.