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NiGHTS 2-B Upgrade

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They exist sleeping forever? LOL yeah no humans age.

They stay in the realm forever to search for their ideya while their body stays asleep and keeps them in that realm. You misunderstand context pretty badly here.

If the time passing in the world they were in was at the same rate as their world was, they'd die of old age long before eternity.
 
@Medeus & AKM

What revisions do you think need to be done here?
 
I don't think there's anything that needs to be changed, and personally think the thread is concluded.
 
medues can you even justify why you think the quote means that they die...when they appear right after that in Bellbridge? Like, using the "fancy words" arguement aint gonna fly here if they are said to continue searching in the realm forever and its not implied that they are gonna die, more like they are trapped there

Like legitimately you are not even making sense here lmao.
 
@Mephistus

Make a continuous effort to be polite and respectful please.

@Medeus

Okay. I also think that we should probably close this thread soon.
 
Because, we don't rely on vague statements as justifications for tierings. If someone says "You shall fall for eternity" and kicks them down a pit, we don't by default assume that's some timeless void without context. And there are statements such as "You can search down there for someone or something" can also just be a figure of speech to join someone in the afterlife.

Whirling in the sea of Darkness... Forever simply does not sound like a alternate universe cosmology lore. "Forever" can just mean "for life." Or just because he can't escape doesn't even mean the real world is frozen in time.
 
@Ant

o_0 you serious? Idk how you got im being disrespectful there even more like confused about this dudes points

@DDM

There is no figure of speech if they are trapped in the realm and their lives aren't threatened, which you have yet to prove.

If they are continually searching in the realm forever with their consciousness right after that point for the maguffins that they were looking for since the start of the game in bellbridge then there isn't much else i need to say, its no vague allegory statment. Forever means forever. Their human bodies would die long before eternity via aging unless the timeline wasnt different. Time might as well be stopped if that is the comparison of how time is relative between the two worlds here.
 
A thread shouldn't be closed because you "feel like it" or because you "think" it should be closed, or you "think it's concluded". That's not how debating works, and is purposefully ignoring the opposition because you either can't handle going on for much longer in a debate or you want a cheap way out.

If there is still something to debate, then that's what needs to be done. I don't mean any of that with any disrespect towards anyone either.
 
@Mephistus

You were laughing at him. That is not acceptable.

@Shake

The staff cannot continue to waste time on discussions forever after what is suggested there has been repeatedly rejected. It prevents us from being efficient in our other work. My apologies, but you will have to accept that it is a necessity for our working structure here.
 
Would time working differently in Nightopia than in the real world really matter tho? We already know Nightopia is not the same dimension as the real world. Question is the different dream worlds relative to each other.
 
Theuser789 said:
I don't think you understood the point, no offense, but each dream is the dream world, which have Galaxies and all, and Nighttopia is where all dream worlds are, the point is that Nighttopia is made of multiple universal dream worlds, which are universes via reasons OP and Mephisto explained
Click to expand...
I already talked about Pritti's point doesn't really make that much sense, and Shake is 100% right, staff need to give reasons outside of "I don't feel like It"
 
Also I really don't see when it isn't enough proof when they not being universes would require more assumptions and mental gynastics then they being universes, lowballing doesn't make it more right
 
I was going to stay neutral on this, but I also fully agree with Shake and Theuser about this. You can't just close a thread because " I don't feel like it"
 
That isn't the reason for why Medeus rejected this. He is just trying to follow our standard conventions of only allowing massive upgrades if there is clear conclusive evidence.
 
Except there is, it's just being rejected because there's not "enough" because it has to be explicit when there's verses here who have a similar rating with simular or even worse evidance, I will not say names not to derrail, when the contrary requires way more mental gynastics, lowballing something doesn't make it right
 
If other verses have even less evidence, then that is just a case of several wrongs not making a right, and that Medeus is trying to do his job and not let through massive upgrades that have poor or unreliable justifications.
 
Yes I know it doesn't, that's my point, if it has to be called universe and show separate timelines directely then alot of verses need fixing

I still think there is already enough proof and thinking it isn't is just lowballing for lowballing sake and requires way more assumptions, we go by what is the most logical thing, lowballing doesn't make it so
 
It also depends on if we have some other form of reliable evidence for universal scale, and we cannot revise everything at once, just take one thing at a time.
 
The entire thing seems just universal in scale. If you can provide a statement of the realms being described as beyond space-time, we'll have enough evidence for 2-B (that would suggest they are disconnected not just spatially, but spatio-temporaly). Otherwise it can't be 2-B without breaking the math behind the system.
 
Wouln't the fact they are separated already cover that point? If the entire space is separated it would already imply time is as well without any evidence to the contrary

By that logic a lot of tier 2 verses would have to be downgraded because they say shit like "other/parallel worlds" instead of outright specifying they have a separate space-time.
 
@Pritti

Thank you for helping out.
 
I agree with Pritti, and I literally elaborated other reasons. Keep in mind that there are other verses with significantly more context to imply worlds being similar to Universes but haven't been accepted as a multiverse. So the counter intuitive arguments do not really mean much. And also, plenty of those verses that are treated as multiverses outright describe worlds as "Alternate Realities" and/or have individual statements such as being "endless" or actual showings that Time works differently. Simply being outside the physical universe is not enough to make them entire universes; otherwise stuff like RoSaT would be a Tier 2 feat.

And yes, it's not because "We feel like it" it's because we already debated enough and nothing new or more specific and/or elaborate has been brought up since. It's just repeating the same points there simply don't hold up as a qualification of a true multiverse.
 
I strongly agree with Medeus.
 
https://ia800302.us.archive.org/Boo...e_007_-_may_1996_UK_0030.jp2&scale=1&rotate=0

The dimension and its subsets already exists outside of our universe and on a different plane, Pritti

DDM hasn't proven that the timeline shiz is incorrect outside of analogies which don't hold up if the statement means they are trapped in the realm forever, longer than they could sleep or even live to old age for in their world, which them being thrown into Bellbridge copy world is pretty dang apparent.

Literally there has been no refute so far for the copy world which extends its copied parts into outer space and how to reason to not be equivalent in qualities if it has the same world classification.

We can bring up the Dream Depot if you wanna bring up context of other verses here not stating individual realms being a universe and equated to worlds, much like Effi was saying.

Only one dream outright gets called a dream of the universe in dream depots case, each and every other dream is equivalent out of comparing the world term classification.
 
@Mephistus those are still false equivalencies. Plus, that scan outright calls the Dream World a 3-dimensional world; thus ruling out the idea that the dream worlds have alternate timelines. And actually, "Sleeping forever" is still another way to say they died. If they are trapped in the sea of darkness forever, it could just mean their real body is in a deep sleep for good.

And only addressing it because it was brought up again when it was clearly addressed multiple times on multiple threads. Future Dream being just the one of many "Worlds" alone outright stating to be an entire universe with the other "worlds" being parallel to it was enough context rather than just A Universe containing many worlds with none of those worlds in the world having statements or showings of being universes. Plus, that's not the only back up; there's many statements throughout that franchise that describe Dreams as equating to Alternate Realities; such as in Super Mario RPG, Super Paper Mario, ect.

Anyway, I'm still not seeing any context here that treats NiGHTS dream world as a multiverse.
 
No DarkDragonMedeus I don't think you understand, the third dimension is the material world, it's own existence and that's in context. they are talking about planes, realms and how they link to dreams. if you looked at all of it instead of nitpicking we wouldn't have this problem. actually nights dimensions are in the plane of dreams, it is illogical to come to the conclusion it only has 3 dimensions of metrics when it clearly talks about dimensions as a scale of planes, they even bring up the collective conscious and unconscious which are applied to dreams and the plane of dreams. planes can have worlds upon worlds upon worlds. sega/sonic team has "worlds" as universe (or higher) size unless specified otherwise.
 
I'm inclined to believe that all the dream worlds exist in a single universe, Nighttopia. There isn't enough evidence to suggest that the dream worlds are all separate universes. Quite frankly that would be an assumption of the highest level which would require extraordinary evidence.
 
By the way, I don't mind removing the 4-A low-end given the entirety of all Dream Worlds is a Universe. But 3-A seems like the most reasonable suggestion.
 
@DDM

those are still false equivalencies. Plus, that scan outright calls the Dream World a 3-dimensional world; thus ruling out the idea that the dream worlds have alternate timelines.

"According to Team Sonic's thinking, this is a dimension which exists close to our corporeal three-dimensional environment"

"No, Nights is set in the actual plane of dreams, called the Night Dimension"

No, the comparison I am making is entirely equivalent. The human's separate dimensional space is directly equivalent in the context of comparing worlds to be called "another world" by a knowledgable character. Separate dimensions (space) implies that that time is separate also too by Occam's Razor with how space-time works in the world the humans come from and how space is interwoven with time. The different plane it takes place in correlates from their humans world it stems from, which has space-time.

And actually, "Sleeping forever" is still another way to say they died.

Wiseman never says "sleeping forever" anywhere nor would it even be an allegory for death via him killing one of the humans here since ya know, he brings one of them to Bellbridge; I'd like to see you link to the exact timestamp for Wiseman saying "sleeping forever" because it really doesn't look like you watched the video closely enough and are taking what I said out of my mouth due to concluding they can dream forever in there.

The human visitors need to be dreaming to stay in the realm as evident by the Alarm Eggs waking them up with a Night Over and them getting in the realm via dreaming. That they can stay there forever has obvious significant repercussions on how time must work there relative to their world being different in passing.

If they are trapped in the sea of darkness forever, it could just mean their real body is in a deep sleep for good.

Again, IF the time was passing in their world at the same rate as the realm they were in, old age would kill them at some point.

That they can search forever in the world they were in (Wiseman's world ) with their consciousness only works if their human bodies have immortality (lol) or time isn't relative between worlds and they must have different individual timelines.

And only addressing it because it was brought up again when it was clearly addressed multiple times on multiple threads. Future Dream being just the one of many "Worlds" alone outright stating to be an entire universe with the other "worlds" being parallel to it was enough context rather than just A Universe containing many worlds with none of those worlds in the world having statements or showings of being universes.

Assuming the word world means the same in comparing two dimensional spaces is apparent here and quite logical, yes.

You don't have individual statements of each dream saying they are a dream of a universe in Dream Depot's case.

Here we have a direct comparison with the humans universe with Owl stating they come from another world.

>Bellbridge being another world and paralleling/copying everything in their universes setting that we can visually see even up to the stars in the sky and classified as just another world in of itself.

>Worlds being shown to holding multiple galaxies as far as the eye can see

"If any game can repeat Sonic's track record, this must be it - Team Sonic's quest to re-create the feeling of flight experienced in dreams and in space."

Heck another thing going by the scan, This is based directly with replicating our real life universes outer space in mind.

Plus, that's not the only back up; there's many statements throughout that franchise that describe Dreams as equating to Alternate Realities; such as in Super Mario RPG, Super Paper Mario, ect.

This is irrelevant to the simple world = universe justification here I brought up for Dream Depot which you have conceded was "enough context" so I'll leave it be.

Anyway, I'm still not seeing any context here that treats NiGHTS dream world as a multiverse.

I'm not seeing any real arguement that discredits the evident context.
 
"Nights is set in the world of dreams. Nights is set in the actual plane of dreams called the Night dimension. This is a dimension which exists close to our corporeal three-dimensional environment."

This piece of text makes a direct relation between the singular "world of dreams" (meaning a world containing many dreams) and our material universe. Them existing close to each other and the fact that they are even being compared like that only strengthens the fact that they are in fact comparable in size and other aspects too.

Such language wouldn't be used if the world of dreams was a 2-B structure. You don't say Andromeda galaxy exists close to dwarf planet Pluto's moon Kerberos. You say Andromeda galaxy is close to Milky Way galaxy, because generally objects of similar sizes are used for relative positioning. If the statement were something like "this is a dimension which contains countless worlds/universes/structures as our three-dimensional environment", then we wouldn't be having this problem.
 
The comparison for our dimension to a individual hub world they go to is already made by Owl too. Heck Helen even calls the Claris dream she goes to another world , not unlike owl referencing the dimension humans were from originally being just another world.

The individual dimensions called worlds existing separately that no two visitors can meet each other in their individual worlds to begin with already point to a larger cosmology.

Being alongside close to something is not a contradiction here in terms of 5-D. 3-D structures like planets is your analogy and it was a comparison to the trait of the dimension, not its location.
 
And that isn't evidence of different dimensions. It can still be one dimension with spatial boundaries separating one space from another.
 
Nor would it make sense if there are already stated timeline differences between their world and another world to go off of as a concrete example for the set of worlds that are known of in their cosmology. Narnia's cosmology doesn't randomly have to prove each individual world has a different timeline to come to the conclusion that the set of worlds are separate timelines due to the comparison between two worlds.

Which again, being different timelines already helps this being 2-B already.
 
Occam's razor never says we should make an assumption of the highest order when there's nothing concrete to go off of. There's not enough evidence for Occam's razor to even apply here. Though, ECREE still exists. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
 
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