NiGHTS 2-B Upgrade

[Theuser789]

Ignoring arguments from the opponent does not make your point better, literaly all that Mephisto has been given is proof and it requires way more mental gynastics to reject then then to accept, it does require evidence which is given and it is requiring way more assumptions to reject, my point stands

 

[AKM sama]

Again, all that proof isn't amounting to anything in this case. It is either not proving what is being claimed or is insufficient. We don't upgrade characters or verses just for the sake of an upgrade, especially of this scale when it involves making heavy assumptions and massive reaching that can be easily questioned and countered.

 

[Mephistus]

Stating that the proof doesn't amount to anything is a non arguement and as easily debunkable as me saying it fully amounts to enough evidence. If your assumption can be supported over another, then prove it or counter it outside of narrative with scans or context. There isn't even a basis for the time being linear between worlds in the context of the story, which you have yet to prove.

 

[AKM sama]

I don't have to prove a negative. As to why it doesn't amount to an upgrade, I and others already gave reasons.

 

[Mephistus]

And we already gave reasons as to why time isnt shared between two worlds via statments. Assuming that the set of worlds do otherwise share their timeline is an extraordinary claim which you need to back up. More narrative really doesnt debunk much at all here we all gave reasons too for the upgrade.

 

[Pritti]

Time doesn't have to be linear in order for realms to share the same time-space (case-in-point, Dragon Ball). There's such a thing as non-linear time.

Also, we're talking about metaphysical worlds, of course the only way to travel to them is portals. You can't physically travel from Soul Society to Hueco Mundo in Bleach without crossing the Dangai, but that doesn't mean they are completely separate time-spaces worthy of being considered evidence for 2-C. It doesn't work that way.

If we did that, we'd have to upgrade a truckload of verses that use magic-think and other "dimensions/realities/realms" to Multiversal levels (2-C DBZ incoming). And before you say "but false equivalency because in this case the worlds are universe-sized", not quite. It's seemingly universal sized based on the supposed evidence above but a bunch of galaxies is only 3-B.

In Saint Seiya, the Hyperdimension can be considered a universe+ structure because it is composed of billions of galaxies, has evidence that these galaxies are light years apart, and is described as being beyond space-time. That's clearly a different time-space containing a universe-sized dimension aka a Low 2-C structure. Nights is just a vague addition to the already ambiguous Sonic cosmology.

I know this seems harsh but I'm only seeing two possibilities here:

A. The worlds are 3-B sized so even if they were alt. time-spaces they aren't universal+ in scale and thus aren't 2-B.

B. The worlds are (most likely, at most) 3-A sized but evidence for different time-spaces (due to metaphysics being involved) is lacking, especially them being universal+ in scale.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Time doesn't have to be linear in order for realms to share the same time-space (case-in-point, Dragon Ball). There's such a thing as non-linear time.

So how do you explain DBS god tiers (Zeno, Grand Priest) are 2-C if it is, according to your ow words, the same space time? And if they are 2-C, why NiGHTS's realm can't be 2-B for the exact same reason?

You can't just say one verse can have one thing but another one that have the exact same thing can't

 

[AKM sama]

Pretty sure she(?) is talking about different dimensions/realms like RoSaT, heaven, etc being a part of one universe, not about different universes. I didn't bring it up myself because I knew it could cause some derailment.

 

[Pritti]

You're asking that to the #1 advocate of the "DBS downgrade squad". But AKM Sama is right, I'm talking about the realms of a universe and not the separate universes. Dragon Ball has both alternate timelines and alternate universes. It's not the same here.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

You're asking that to the #1 advocate of the "DBS downgrade squad". But AKM Sama is right, I'm talking about the realms of a universe and not the separate universes. Dragon Ball has both alternate timelines and alternate universes. It's not the same here.

Oh, So I probably misunderstood you here

 

[Antvasima]

Pritti seems to make sense to me. What do you think Medeus and AKM?

 

[TheImagineBreaker121212]

A dimension can have spatial boundaries. It doesn't always have to be separate dimensions just because two visitors can't meet.

you can't even prove the 3rd dimension is literally the 3rd dimension when it's classified as a plane/realm in context to start, lmfao it's called a "corporal 3 dimensional environment" and the basis is "corporal" meaning it's a material classification. actually since there are planes in the dreams (parallel worlds and worlds) and those dreams reside in the plane of dreams on of those planes being NiGHTS' Dimension('s) there's literally no way to come to the conclusion that the material world and the dreams are the same size or host the same qualities on top of that, those places are conceptual as jungian archetypes, these dreams creating worlds and different notes all reside in the collective unconscious/conscious on sum of it is NiGHTS meaning it at least says they can house several billions of trillions of universes if it ain't higher. and still occam's razor says worlds are universes.

 

[Theuser789]

Is there any proof it actualy shares space and time instead of just assuming so without proof when the simplest and most logical is for both space and time being separated? Because all I am seeing we are just assuming it's that way by default and we need to prove otherwise, which doesn't make much sense to be a default assumption when it requires more mental gynastics to think so

Also adding a little just because we are upgrading a character to higher tier that doesn't make this a extraodinary claim, that is completely unrelated to a tier, this is the whole thing with lowballing, we are assuming the lowest possible just because we think a high tier is extraodinary claim that needs alot of proof, and not the actual assumptions and proof that require higher mental gynastics, all because we assume lowballing is correct because we care too much about the tier than the arguments and logic

 

[Pritti]

We're not assuming anything as default, we're saying it's not verifiable due to it's ambiguous nature.

We're not saying "they share the same space-time". We're saying "there isn't enough evidence they don't".

 

[Pritti]

Keep in mind I'm referring to the Night Dimension, not the regular universe. There's enough evidence the Night Dimension is a universe, but not nearly enough evidence to suggest it's a multiverse.

 

[Theuser789]

At least there's evidence for they not sharing space and time, but no evidence of sharing in this thread by the opposition, thus my assuming comment and the "default"

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

We're not assuming anything as default, we're saying it's not verifiable due to it's ambiguous nature.
We're not saying "they share the same space-time". We're saying "there isn't enough evidence they don't".

The default for universes is seperated, 4 dimensional (3+1) space-time. So saying that they're not seperated needed to be proved, rather than the other way around. Also saying "there isn't enough evidence that they don't" is like saying they do share the same space time, since in both case you assume that the space-time is shared between them.

That also means that by your logic, any multiverse that doesn't say that the space times are seperated or show it, is Low 2-C, since if they don't say it, it means that they're not seperated

 

[Pritti]

There isn't any evidence. If there is, please relay them again (I might have missed it).

 

[TheImagineBreaker121212]

^

 

[Pritti]

What? You're completely misunderstanding my argument. The Night Dimension itself has only been described as a universe. It's never been described in multiversal terms so how is the burden of proof on me to prove each location within it is Low 2-C sized?

 

[Theuser789]

There isn't any evidence. If there is, please relay them again (I might have missed it).

Well, Mephisto has been the one giving the most arguments in favor of it, so re-read his posts, plus the fact that each is separated would already prove so since it's illogical to assume they share time but not space with no proof of that, pretty sure in your examples there's actualy proof of they being quilted, while I haven't seen it here

I also strongly agree with Gilad here

 

[Sera_EX]

@Antvasima

I'm guessing we might have to create a discussion for Dream Worlds at some point. They're becoming as problematic as timeless voids.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

There isn't any evidence. If there is, please relay them again (I might have missed it).

You missed my point, I'm not talking about that, I'm talking about that the default for groups of universes are seperated, 3+1 dimensional space times (based on our own standard model of the universe, making it natural to assume that different, seperated spaces would also be temporally seperated as well) unless shown otherwise. We can't just assume that a group of seperated spaces that can't be accessed in regular means would also share the same time without any proofs, which the supporters still did not see.

 

[Theuser789]

What? You're completely misunderstanding my argument. The Night Dimension itself has only been described as a universe. It's never been described in multiversal terms so how is the burden of proof on me to prove each location within it is Low 2-C sized?

Being called a universe doesn't really debunk anything really, there's plenty of 2-B/A verses called universe who still are that, heck, even one of the defintions of universe isn't just low 2-C, I have to get that one

 

[Theuser789]

@Antvasima

I'm guessing we might have to create a discussion for Dream Worlds at some point. They're becoming as problematic as timeless voids.

I strongly agree with this as well, currentely it seems like each verse has his own standards for it, so I would apreciate a fixed standard for it, it would make arguing easier as well

 

[Pritti]

No no no no no no. Different universes are not separated by 3+1 dimensions. Who told you that? Because that's objectively false.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

@Antvasima
I'm guessing we might have to create a discussion for Dream Worlds at some point. They're becoming as problematic as timeless voids.

I agree as well. Creating a standard would make debating much easier on those topics

 

[Pritti]

Being called a universe doesn't really debunk anything really, there's plenty of 2-B/A verses called universe who still are that, heck, even one of the defintions of universe isn't just low 2-C, I have to get that one

I know that but regardless, there's no evidence for 2-B, there's plenty evidence for 3-A and enough for Low 2-C, but not 2-B.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

What? You're completely misunderstanding my argument. The Night Dimension itself has only been described as a universe. It's never been described in multiversal terms so how is the burden of proof on me to prove each location within it is Low 2-C sized?

Being called "Universe", "Multiverse" or whatever is just semantics, and they don't mean anything about the nature of it

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

No no no no no no. Different universes are not separated by 3+1 dimensions. Who told you that? Because that's objectively false.

Why wouldn't they be seperated? Our universe is 3+1 dimensional (which is a fact), so it's just natural to assume that other universes are similar in that way to our own (3+1 dimensional with space-time of their own)

 

[Theuser789]

I mean, there is, which has been explained and saying there is no argument is kinda rude for people bringing arguments, what there isn't evidence is each world being quilted thus only being low 2-C, which hasn't been argued with no real proof, which I would like, this goes back in my other comment that putting something at a higher tier isn't something relevant, but the actual arguments, and lowballing doesn't make it right

 

[Pritti]

That's not what I'm saying. I'm aware that there are even 1-A planes called "universes". But you can't just see a bunch of disconnected realms and assume it's a multiverse, that's the highest of highballs. Especially when the argument is about needing portals to travel to them and other things that's can be applied to even pocket realities.

 

[Theuser789]

A highball doesn't really make something wrong when there's nothing supporting a lowball except lowballs sake, while at least the highball has proof, can someone please post any proof of it being quilted, then I might accept it

 

[Pritti]

@Gilad

Yes, our universe is 3+1 and other universes are too. So if different variations of a single universe are separated by the fourth dimension (this is how time travel is possible), separate fourth dimensional space-time continuums are believed to be separated by a fifth dimension.

 

[Greenshifter]

@Theuser can't you just repost every argument for an upgrade in a summary and then someone either debunks those reasons in one post or doesn't manage to debunk them and the upgrade happens?

 

[Sera_EX]

Isn't Marvel's Dark Dimension considered 2-A for having "worlds beyond counting"? That's a metaphysical realm that's considered multiverse-sized.

 

[Theuser789]

@Theuser can't you just repost every argument for an upgrade in a summary and then someone either debunks those reasons in one post or doesn't manage to debunk them and the upgrade happens?

I mean sure? It does seen like each dream being 3-A was already accepted, so I might only get the ones against the quilted assumption, tho I haven't been the one who made most arguments

 

[TheImagineBreaker121212]

Is there any proof it actualy shares space and time instead of just assuming so without proof when the simplest and most logical is for both space and time being separated? Because all I am seeing we are just assuming it's that way by default and we need to prove otherwise, which doesn't make much sense to be a default assumption when it requires more mental gynastics to think so
Also adding a little just because we are upgrading a character to higher tier that doesn't make this a extraodinary claim, that is completely unrelated to a tier, this is the whole thing with lowballing, we are assuming the lowest possible just because we think a high tier is extraodinary claim that needs alot of proof, and not the actual assumptions and proof that require higher mental gynastics, all because we assume lowballing is correct because we care too much about the tier than the arguments and logic

this is irrelevant anyhow, 1. they need substantial proof why occam's razor shouldn't apply to NiD. 2. we've already brought up it's connections to Sonic The Hedgehog.

anyhow https://ia800302.us.archive.org/Boo...e_007_-_may_1996_UK_0030.jp2&scale=1&rotate=0 and http://www.nightsintodreams.com/?p=1343 and http://shmuplations.com/nights/

let's layer the context here.

when they talk about "3D Dimensional Environment" they are talking about the graphics as we see here.

NiGHTS Dimension Is a Dream which is also one of the Dreamworlds, if NiGHTS Dimension is a Dream and is a Universe, then any dream in the verse would be a universe as well.

Naka: the "dream" theme came into focus, we soon realized that the best way to bring this dreamworld to life and give it a proper sense of "reality" was with 3D polygons

Oshima: 2D sprites were always a backup option though, if the polygon approach had turned out to look too clunky or angular.

—Why were you so resistant to 3D?
Naka: Because the TV screen is a flat, two-dimensional screen, we reasoned, you can't really get the sense of depth and perspective in it that a 3D game would require. How would you be able to discern between objects that were close-up and those far away? We just didn't think we'd be able to create interesting gameplay in a completely 3D environment.

I'd seen a lot of "3D" games before, but very few of them made me feel like I was really playing in three dimensions. And what were you usually doing in those games? Shooting. But the targetting cursor always had computer-assisted aiming, so basically you weren't playing the game, the computer was. Even the good 3D games were like that. But one of our design principles at Sonic Team was that we didn't want to include guns and shooting mechanics. If you do that it ultimately just turns into a STG game. On the other hand, making a difficult platformer without weapons, one where you just make difficult jumps and such—that also wouldn't appeal to the average person.

It was extremely important to us to have a strong connection between what happens on the screen and the controls, and that those controls be responsive and fun. So 3D was out. We did try some early experiments with full 3D, but as we thought, it didn't feel right. But pure 2D would have looked "old" to today's audiences. What we settled on is the game you see today: the gameplay appeal of 2D with a 3D presentation.

I wouldn't have been against a game where you fly around in true 3D—if we could have made it a good game. It's very difficult. Maybe we will do that in the future, but we went this way for now. For us, this was our very first Saturn development, and as such it was a lot of experimentation and finding our way. We consider NiGHTS a first step.

—What were some of the challenges of creating this "dream world" ?
Naka: Well, the very first designs that Oshima drew were very different from where we ended up. He interpreted the theme in a more fantastic way, a fantasy world of dreams. When I saw that, I told him that no one really has dreams like that. Dreams are usually closer to reality, and bear more of a resemblance to one's inner psyche and subconscious. Everyone dreams, so I said let's try and create a more natural image, something closer to the dreams we all have. The world of NiGHTS (in this game at least) derives from that way of thinking.

Iizuka: Since this was a world of "dreams" we were depicting—the mysterious world of the unconscious—we had to understand the whole thing before we could begin creating it. Take an island. If it's a real island, it's easy enough to create. Once we settled on the "dream" concept, though, it meant we had to design and create every detail of that island ex nihilo.

Nidcom: NiGHTS is considered to be one the most magical, inspiring and mischievous characters Sonic Team ever created, continuing on through dreams long after the game has been won. Has NiGHTS ever appeared in your own dreams?


Yuji Naka: Of course. NiGHTS came from your dreams too. Being so, NiGHTS will keep living for a long time.

this also means those dreams are universes as well.

at this point it's arguing from ignorance to resist a 2-B polish to NiGHTS

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

@Gilad
Yes, our universe is 3+1 and other universes are too. So if different variations of a single universe are separated by the fourth dimension (this is how time travel is possible), separate fourth dimensional space-time continuums are believed to be separated by a fifth dimension.

Time travel don't make you travel to a different universe, it just returns you to an earlier or later point in time (mostly, but the default is not traveling to a different universe)

Time is kind of a "4th" dimension, but there can also be a 4+1 realm, so there is a reason why I say "3+1" and not 4-dimensional space-time.

You don't necessarily need a 4th spatial dimension to travel to other space time continuums. You can have a bunch of finitely sized 3+1 seperated universes contained in a larger multiverse and it's possible to travel between them without needing to use 4th dimensional space

 

[Pritti]

But in Dormammu's case the Dark Dimension isn't his sole justification for a 2-A rating anyway.