New Evidence the Overvoid/Monitor-Mind is an aspect of the Presence

[Xearsay]

The actual comic stories suggest the Source and the Overvoid are not the same thing. It’s only author statements from Grant and things alike that states this interpretation. However none of those will be taken as precedent over what’s in the stories so we can basically dismiss them.

 

[Deagonx]

No, they're identified as the same in the comics as well, such as on the Multiversity Map and again in the Absolute Edition.

Besides this, what you're saying contradicts our site policy on author statements:

Author statements will only be accepted when they clarify what has been shown or implied in the series itself

So Grant's explanation that clarifies the map is not dismissable, so you're objectively wrong on that part.

 

[Xearsay]

- "When a statement from a character, guidebook, or even word of god contradicts what occurs in the series, they won't be used.”

The Source is established to be a sentient energy that exist at center of the Greater Omniverse within the Overvoid. Grants author statements contradict this and will therefore not be used.

 

[Deagonx]

Different aspects of the same Godhood. Regardless, it's not just author statements that identify them as the same so that's a moot point.

 

[Xearsay]

They’re not aspects of any godhead and no comic supports such a thing. Furthermore, the only evidence you listed besides author statements was literally just some possible interpretation of the Multiversity map. And even if we accepted your interpretation it would be completely outweighed by all the evidence supporting them being not the same.

 

[Deagonx]

No, it isn't. The Map identifying them as the same isn't simply "possible" it is confirmed by the basic function of the map in every other instance where a location is labeled and is directly confirmed in the Absolute Edition.

You're entitled to your own opinion, not your own facts.

 

[NHTkenshin2]

Omg you two are literally Mandrakk and Superman.

 

[MichaelJZero]

We were told so many times in this thread alone that there is contradiction in the Morrison lore. Where? Tarang above in this thread and others said there was contradiction, but none of you ever post it beyond that you think there is. Nothing but that they want it to be that way and nothing more. Wow shocking, the self proclaimed masters of debating and knowledge of comic stuff unable to provide a single scan or piece of evidence except them shouting Nuh Uh at us....

Fact of the Matter, even DC officially itself had stated that the Morrison Map originally contained Convergence itself as a meta. If you cannot listen to DC itself confirm what all these content creators and the guidebook of the time said about that era, then you have no business being a debater or handling anything wiki related. Call yourself a shiller, not a debater, because it seems objective data is scary.

Convergence is the entire meta history of the DCU. Everything.

There is no contradiction. There is only the side that has shame. And the side that doesn't have shame. The Source from every single era of DC is contained within it and its absurd that anyone thinks the DC Comics Source is beyond the Marvel Continuity Earth 8 or the Image Continuity of Earth 41 in the original map context.

 

[Deagonx]

In the future, put your scans into a quotation box or resize them so they do not take up so much space. It becomes very difficult to navigate the thread when posting giant images in between each paragraph.

 

[NHTkenshin2]

This unfortunately arose from combining the Tynion/Snyder cosmologies with Morrisons. Which gave us two options, treat contradictions between the three very lightly, or literally just ignore any extremely well established cosmology made by Morrison. This is VSBW, so option 2 here was an objective fact.

Which of course led us into these very questionable 1-C ratings, even though we quite literally know that Morrison still considers his past cosmologies to be a part of his verse with the scans posted above, as well as the numerous scans regarding his Hypertime vision, some of said cosmologies being accepted to reach the 1-A tier.

Sadge.

 

[Deagonx]

There is only the side that has shame. And the side that doesn't have shame

Deagon up here googling for information and taking 10 seconds to feel he is educated enough on religious views to talk about this. While he just yesterday said the Buddhist Yogi, the most famous one to ever live, wasn't Buddhist. Dude suddenly becomes a sentient walking Google search no matter what any of us say and what insane horrible and anti-factual statements he makes on a whim. The mere fact anyone can even drop a skim over his posts is absolutely stunning to me.

but none of you ever post it beyond that you think there is. Nothing but that they want it to be that way and nothing more. Wow shocking, the self proclaimed masters of debating and knowledge of comic stuff unable to provide a single scan or piece of evidence except them shouting Nuh Uh at us....

then you have no business being a debater or handling anything wiki related. Call yourself a shiller, not a debater, because it seems objective data is scary.

Also, these types of comments need to stop. This isn't like other websites where you can say whatever you want as long as you don't actively cuss someone out. The constant peppering of inflammatory mockering in each of your posts is not acceptable.

Particularly your point about Maharishi is bizarre, as this is not even a matter of opinion and the information about his religious background is widespread and freely available. Maharishi wasn't Buddhist, he was Hindu. Your own scan that you posted to try and establish him as a Buddhist called him Hindu.

He's Hindu. The second link is just a course about Buddhism from a university he started. Specifically, if you actually click on the link, it's from the department of Vedic Science. The root word of Vedic is Vedas, which is a Hindu religious text that is not considered authoritative within Buddhism.

 

[MichaelJZero]

You are backpeddling. You insisted he wasn't Buddhist and he was. And now you are trying to save face.

This unfortunately arose from combining the Tynion/Snyder cosmologies with Morrisons. Which gave us two options, treat contradictions between the three very lightly, or literally just ignore any extremely well established cosmology made by Morrison. This is VSBW, so option 2 here was an objective fact.

Which of course led us into these very questionable 1-C ratings, even though we quite literally know that Morrison still considers his past cosmologies to be a part of his verse with the scans posted above, as well as the numerous scans regarding his Hypertime vision, some of said cosmologies being accepted to reach the 1-A tier.

Sadge.

This is 100% spot on correct. Some users purposely feared separtion of the Morrison cosmology because it disrupted the classic view of the Lucifer 2000 and Gaiman Vertigo cosmology. Debaters are stuck on this sadistic notion that the DC Comics Presence is somehow or for whatever insane reason, beyond the scope of the entire Marvel and Image comics continuity in the Orrery. They think the Orrery is just DC Comics in the Morrison series, but the other authors later actually did remove that entire idea from their version of it. Debaters then blurred them and said its all the same.

Let me bust their logic again. There are users right here in this same thread we are typing in now, who flat out lied to the mods and got them to alter the wiki on WoD Jevoha. Have not been able to verify these are legit, but I was given these by a friend who I will credit after I hear back from them on if they want me to name them,

.

WoD Jevoha ranked 1A likely 0. When the actual guidebook for the series says the unified field VOID consumes it and its where it came from, its the alpha sphere where nothing is beyond it.

This is the same as the Overvoid. Its the final anything where all anythings came from. Morrison FC/Multiversity Overvoid is the same.

So if vsbattles users are fine with saying a lower tier than the Void in WoD is likely 0, then the Overvoid is a 0

And Mandrakk is a high 1A, and CAS is everything not the field. Therefore, CAS = 1A at minimum, likely also high 1A.

Are these debaters going to be fair about this? OF COURSE NOT. These scans won't ever see the light of day and users who dislike this will explain it away in whatever way they need to, so they can fee better.

 

[Deagonx]

You are backpeddling. You insisted he wasn't Buddhist and he was. And now you are trying to save face.

Doesn't the phrase "backpedaling" imply that I have changed my stance about something?

He objectively was not Buddhist. You haven't posted any evidence that he was, and the evidence you did post called him Hindu.

You're not even engaging with the information in front of you, you're just repeating yourself. How would he be Buddhist if he follows the Vedas? That's like calling someone a Muslim despite following the Christian Bible. He's identifed as a Hindu in your own scan.

Are these debaters going to be fair about this? OF COURSE NOT. These scans won't ever see the light of day and users who dislike this will explain it away in whatever way they need to, so they can fee better.

I just asked you to stop with the mockery in your posts. If it happens again I will have to take this to RVR.

 

[MichaelJZero]

Don't really care and will continue to slam you at every point possible when you make up stuff. Your threats mean nothing to me, kiddo. At this point, you and your 19 alias's can't' do anything else but try to flag me each time I debunk you or show that you lied to everyone.

YOU SAID HE WAS NOT BUDDHIST, sit down already. You trying to now flip flop and try to make it seem like you didn't clearly say that is just adorable and classic Deagon behavior. You like a beached whale that doesn't understand it got blown out of the water, just flopping around on the beach like a toddler who cannot accept that you said a real naive thing and then got called out on it, and now you are trying to spin it like you didn't say it. And you dislike that I mock you? lol...

At least have the adult fortitude to admit when you stated something incorrect, jeez. Oh wait, you might only speak whale...let me rephrase

Awoooooooo whoaaaammmmm ahhmoooooo eieeeeeeee oiiiiioooooowwwwwwww

How's that for mockery?

 

[NHTkenshin2]

Calm down there Mike, this typa stuff pisses people off.

 

[Deagonx]

YOU SAID HE WAS NOT BUDDHIST, sit down already

You're right. I don't know why you're implying I am in some way flustered or embarrassed on this subject. Maharishi was not Buddhist, he was Hindu.

I have to assume this mockery is a tactic to evade the subject? This is very concrete, I have provided ample proof that he was Hindu, showing you that he was cited as Hindu in your own scan, showing that his college is named after a Hindu religious text that is not authoritative to Buddhists, showing that his teacher was Hindu, that he is referred to as Hindu in academic coverage of his following.

Instead of engaging with any of this information or presenting any counterargument or reasoning, you keep retreating to this juvenile form of mockery.

 

[Xearsay]

First off, where’s the evidence they’re aspects of some godhead like you said? You can’t just make a bunch of bullshit claims and not provide evidence for them.

Second, even if what you’re saying about the map is true it would be a single minuscule piece of evidence that’s completely contradicted and outweighed by all the shit supporting that they’re not the same.

Also mischaracterizing my arguments as “opinions” so you can discredit them is stonewalling. And I’d advise you not to do that.

 

[MichaelJZero]

Calm down there Mike, this typa stuff pisses people off.

Thats true, I should chill. Please, let me explain why I mocked him and to apologize for it.

He said that FH > Overvoid for years while the author confirmed the opposite and so did the comics literally at the same moment his posts were made. Nobody here even saw the Twitter statements I posted until I posted them. His reply was Maharishi wasn't Buddhist.

I showed that the original author considers the Overvoid the social alpha and it's outside of DC Comics entirely, while he stated it was inside DC. The reply was Maharishi isn't Buddhist.

I showed that the Presence was killed a few times in the comics

and also the Parliaments almost took him out, according to the Phantom Stranger and the Word. His reply was Maharishi isn't Buddhist.

I showed that Maharishi is Vedic and that his Transcendental Meditation practices are lifted from Buddhism and tweaked a bit, and his entire philosophy on abstract thinking meditation is inherently Buddhist. His reply was this is some type of Muslim parallel and that Maharishi wasn't Buddhist.

I showed that DC itself as a property officially regarded the Cosmic Map as showcasing Convergence itself as within it and a part of it. His reply was Maharishi wasn't Buddhist.

I showed that there are multiple authors who discuss the Overvoid topic and define it differently, so then why generalize all of them with a low scaling when one of them contains all the other ones? The reply was Maharishi isn't Buddhist.

I showed that his school teaches a course on Transcedental Meditation and how it is essentially a tangent idealogy of Buddhist viewpoint. The reply was Maharishi wasn't Buddhist.

I showed 8 authors from DC Comics and one published fan fiction writer (who created an entire JL Legacies series) confirm the exact same thing without any cross talk between them that the Presence is the lowest tier. The reply from him was Maharishi wasn't Buddhist.

I showed that World of Darkness's Jevoha has a Tier 0 rank despite all the WoD guides saying he is contained by a Void that is unbeatable called the unified field. And that field is essentially the same as the Overvoid from FC. The reply from him was Maharishi wasn't Buddhist.

I showed that the guidebook 3x confirmed that Earth 33 cannot be bypassed in that Morrison cosmology by anything but an idea passed down into the DCU or up from the DCU while we read their stories printed in it. The reply was Maharishi wasn't Buddhist.

I showed the same guidebook saying that the Source and the Overvoid are two different paths that retcons and rebooted things can take to hope to get recycled. The reply was Maharishi wasn't Buddhist.

I showed that Grant called the Source the Ain Sophh Aurr twice, and that the Ain Sophh Aurr is just one of the three pillars of the Absolute Void. The reply was Maharishi wasn't Buddhist.

I showed the literal name of Yahweh (Elohim) on the map in the Sphere of Gods. The reply was Maharishi wasn't Buddhist.

I showed Final Crisis's Revelations story was based on the notion that The Presence had been killed. The reply was Maharishi wasn't Buddhist.

I showed how a few authors considered the Great Darkness below the Source and that the Swamp Thing comic already defined it as just the concept of Evil personified. The reply was Maharishi wasn't Buddhist.

I pulled a brand new interview nobody ever saw here but me about how the Overvoid contains Earth 33 despite him and many others here insisting Earth 33 was outside of the Overvoid. The reply was Maharishi wasn't Buddhist.

I showed Grant saying that the FC cosmology has infinite Multiverses in it, but the ranking for that verison of the Overvoid is complex Multiversal ranked which isn't infinite Multiversal in status and that needed to be revised. The reply was Maharishi wasn't Buddhist.

I copied the scan of Lucifer himself saying the Void wasn't nonbeing. But the Overvoid is nonbeing according to everything and everyone at DC. The reply was Maharishi isn't Buddhist.

At this point I then started to mock him after a few posts of this, and then he reported me for mocking him. May the Comic deities forgive me for hurting their feelings after I endured a slew of fraudulent claims and and endless stream of trolling replies. I feel like I was super patient with the constant trolling and inverted rhetoric, and the flagrant false claims that I was debunked and all of the copy and pastes of the comic panels were subjectively debunked by some unknown person somewhere. 50X trolling statements and fraudulent claims made against me? No prob bob.

MJ replies with some mocking statements? BAN THIS MAN! REPORT HIM!!!


Same ol' same ol'

all the things you have posted got debunked on comic vine

Imagine reading everything I posted and then falsely claim all of it got debunked by someone, somewhere, sometime in the past, by a fan theorist, but no need to show where or who or when or how or what was said. Nobody there debunked me, tis' me who debunked all of you with casual calm and no effort what so ever.

 

[Deagonx]

I showed that Maharishi is Vedic and that his Transcendental Meditation practices are lifted from Buddhism and tweaked a bit

No, lifted from Hinduism and tweaked a bit. Vedic isn't Buddhist. The word Vedic refers to Vedas, a Hindu scripture that isn't recognized by Buddhism. It can't be Vedic and Buddhist. That be like saying it's Quranic and Jewish.

 

[Deagonx]

First off, where’s the evidence they’re aspects of some godhead like you said? You can’t just make a bunch of bullshit claims and not provide evidence for them.

First, relax. There is no justification for being hostile.

Second, aside from Snyder saying it in an interview, it is an impression many DC fans have gotten based on the numerous incidents over the years that equate them. I don't expect that to convince you, since even Grant himself saying it or writing it on the map doesn't matter to you.

Second, even if what you’re saying about the map is true it would be a single minuscule piece of evidence that’s completely contradicted and outweighed by all the shit supporting that they’re not the same.

It's not an if, it's 1) how maps work and 2) directly confirmed in Absolute Edition. It's not outweighed by anything, there's quite a lot of information that identifies the Source, Presence, and Overvoid together in various aspects, both within Morrison's Overvoid writings and as a composite. Heck, Williamson just made the Presence and the Overvoid the same.

Also mischaracterizing my arguments as “opinions” so you can discredit them is stonewalling. And I’d advise you not to do that.

It isn't stonewalling, no. And the fact that your arguments are opinions isn't what discredits them. Rather, it's the evidence directly showing that the author of the Overvoid wrote them as being the same thing. If we look at what Grant has written about the Overvoid, there are no contradictions. If we look at composite DC, there are many retcons that these various characters have gone through, but it always circles back to them having a definite relationship, usually being identified as the same thing, like Williamson saying Presence = Overvoid, Snyder saying Presence = Source, DeMatteis saying Void = Source = God (the same thing Grant said about the Overvoid), et cetera.

 

[Xearsay]

Second, aside from Snyder saying it in an interview, it is an impression many DC fans have gotten based on the numerous incidents over the years that equate them. I don't expect that to convince you, since even Grant himself saying it or writing it on the map doesn't matter to you.

First, where did Snyder say in an interview that the Source and the Overvoid are different aspects of the same Godhead?

Second, you don’t speak for “many DC fans” and there isn’t “numerous incidents.” The only evidence you listed was the map, which as I already said is completely outweighed by all the other pieces of evidence that support them not being the same.

It's not outweighed by anything, there's quite a lot of information that identifies the Source, Presence, and Overvoid together in various aspects, both within Morrison's Overvoid writings and as a composite. Heck, Williamson just made the Presence and the Overvoid the same.

Besides the map, where in Morrison and Snyder’s writing is the Overvoid and The Source identified together?

Composite DC cosmology doesn’t even work and when it comes to the cosmic beings and hierarchy you can argue almost anything, so I’m not even gonna entertain that.

And the fact that your arguments are opinions isn't what discredits them. Rather, it's the evidence directly showing that the author of the Overvoid wrote them as being the same thing. If we look at what Grant has written about the Overvoid, there are no contradictions.

This is untrue. There’s written contradictions for Overvoid = Source with what Grant wrote and with what Snyder wrote.

In Grants stories the Source is depicted as a sentient energy that took part in making creation, understands what creation is, and to have created the New Gods. In Final Crisis and Multiversity the Overvoid is depicted as not a sentient energy, to have not taken part in making creation, to not understand what it is, and to have not created the New Gods. Grant also wrote that it’s possible to come from beyond the Source like with Maggedon. (JLA #37)

Snyder wrote the Source as a sentient energy which lies in the Overvoid at the center of the Greater Omniverse and exists due to the belief of Gods, and lives in all things.

 

[Deagonx]

First, where did Snyder say in an interview that the Source and the Overvoid are different aspects of the same Godhead?

It was in an Imaginary Axis interview.

Second, you don’t speak for “many DC fans” and there isn’t “numerous incidents.” The only evidence you listed was the map, which as I already said is completely outweighed by all the other pieces of evidence that support them not being the same.

I'm not speaking for them, I am referring to a widespread notion that exists amongst them. And there are numerous, yes, the fact that I have only mentioned one in this conversation does not change the fact that there are many others, and no, there's not evidence that contradicts it.

Besides the map, where in Morrison and Snyder’s writing is the Overvoid and The Source identified together?

That's not what I said.

there's quite a lot of information that identifies the Source, Presence, and Overvoid together in various aspects

Any pairing of these two has been fairly regularly equated and sometimes even all three together. It seems you primarily reject this out of a personal bias, not because of whats true in reality. Even the authors pretty staunchly reject your theory.

This is untrue. There’s written contradictions for Overvoid = Source with what Grant wrote and with what Snyder wrote.

Grant wrote the Source as a sentient energy that took part in making creation, understands what creation is, and to have created the the New Gods.

You're referencing material from a decade before Overvoid was created, that is an invalid approach.

Snyder wrote the Source as a sentient energy which lies in the Overvoid at the center of the Greater Omniverse and exists due to the belief of Gods, and lives in all things.

And he also considered them aspects of the same divinity, and heavily relied on the map which explicitly identifies them as the same, yes. You've largely made my point for me, and I'm inclined to think the authors that wrote these stories who have both identified the concept I'm talking about (a shared divinity amongst the three) know better than you on the subject.

 

[NHTkenshin2]

And he also considered them aspects of the same divinity, and heavily relied on the map which explicitly identifies them as the same, yes. You've largely made my point for me, and I'm inclined to think the authors that wrote these stories who have both identified the concept I'm talking about (a shared divinity amongst the three) know better than you on the subject.

I believe the map simply displayed them both as existing outside of the Mutliverse. And you're like the only one who cant use that argument breh

 

[Deagonx]

I believe the map simply displayed them both as existing outside of the Mutliverse.

You're mistaken. The map identifies both of them as the white space beyond the Multiverse. This is clear from the convention that the map follows and has been explicitly confirmed in multiple interviews as well as officially within the Absolute Edition of Multiversity.

And you're like the only one who cant use that argument breh

No, you've repeatedly mischaracterized my stance on the matter. I've attempted to correct you multiple times, that I have no problem with author statements when used appropriately. Despite my attempt at correcting you, you've kept on like I've ever remotely implied or said that one can't use author statements, but that's not my stance at all.

 

[NHTkenshin2]

You're mistaken. The map identifies both of them as the white space beyond the Multiverse. This is clear from the convention that the map follows and has been explicitly confirmed in multiple interviews as well as officially within the Absolute Edition of Multiversity.

Yeah well, i too used to use that as an argument until i remembered the whole limitless energy and centre of the Omniverse thing.

And the several other instances clearly distinguishing the Overvoid from the Source, like how the Overvoid was clueless to how exactly the Flaw appeared on it and was straight up afraid of its contradictions and stories within it, while it itself supposedly tasked the Hands with creating countless Multiverses, even before the creation of the Orrery.

Its clear contradictory tidbits like this, that just clearly distinguishes between the two.

 

[Xearsay]

was in an Imaginary Axis interview.

Where in the imaginary axis interview does Snyder say the Overvoid and the Source are different aspects of a Godhead?

That's not what I said.

there's quite a lot of information that identifies the Source, Presence, and Overvoid together in various aspects

Any pairing of these two has been fairly regularly equated and sometimes even all three together. It seems you primarily reject this out of a personal bias, not because of whats true in reality. Even the authors pretty staunchly reject your theory.

Deagonx - “there's quite a lot of information that identifies the Source, Presence, and Overvoid together in various aspects, both within Morrison's Overvoid writings”

This is your claim literally copied and pasted. Besides the map, where is the evidence for the large amount of information within Morrison’s writing that identifies what you claimed?

You're referencing material from a decade before Overvoid was created, that is an invalid approach.

1) How can you say it was a decade before the Overvoid was created when The Source existed and you believe The Source and the Overvoid are the same?

2) The details about The Source I referenced were from both pre Final Crisis and post Final Crisis.

And he also considered them aspects of the same divinity, and heavily relied on the map which explicitly identifies them as the same, yes.

You haven’t posted any evidence of Snyder calling them aspects of the same divinity and even if you did have some evidence for that claim, it would be completely contradicted by Scott’s own material.

In Scotts own stories only part of the map featuring the Multiverse was used and that was to support his Dark Multiverse idea.

 

[Deagonx]

Where in the imaginary axis interview does Snyder say the Overvoid and the Source are different aspects of a Godhead?

There is a tweet that references this in this thread.

This is your claim literally copied and pasted. Besides the map, where is the evidence for the large amount of information within Morrison’s writing that identifies what you claimed?

I've already posted that he expressed this in Absolute Multiversity very explicitly and the numerous statements he has made to that effect.

1) How can you say it was a decade before the Overvoid was created when The Source existed and you believe The Source and the Overvoid are the same?

Because the Overvoid was created in 2008...?

You haven’t posted any evidence of Snyder calling them aspects of the same divinity and even if you did have some evidence for that claim, it would be completely contradicted by Scott’s own material.

No, it's not contradicted, and the evidence has been posted repeatedly.

In Scotts own stories only part of the map featuring the Multiverse was used and that was to support his Dark Multiverse idea.

Yep, the map that identifies the Source and Overvoid as the same thing. Thanks, that was my whole point.

 

[Xearsay]

There is a tweet that references this in this thread.

No, it's not contradicted, and the evidence has been posted repeatedly.

That’s literally just a tweet from a random YouTuber. It’s not from Scott Snyder.

I've already posted that he expressed this in Absolute Multiversity very explicitly and the numerous statements he has made to that effect.

I asked you for evidence from Morrisons writing excluding the map, as in evidence from within the setting of the stories/narratives Morrison’s written. Those author statements are not Morrison’s writing.

Because the Overvoid was created in 2008...?

Under your view this statement doesn’t make any sense because to you the Overvoid is The Source and The Source was created way before 2008. You can’t say the Overvoid and The Source are the same being and then try act like the Overvoid is some separate character that was created decades after The Source.

Yep, the map that identifies the Source and Overvoid as the same thing.

No, that part of the map was explicitly cut off and not mentioned. Only the Multiverse up the Source Wall was ever shown.

 

[Deagonx]

Those author statements are not Morrison’s writing.

This is semantics, but I'm not trying to convince you of it regardless.

Under your view this statement doesn’t make any sense because to you the Overvoid is The Source and The Source was created way before 2008. You can’t say the Overvoid and The Source are the same being and then try act like the Overvoid is some separate character that was created decades after The Source.

I don't share that notion of what I'm saying at all.

No, that part of the map was explicitly cut off and not mentioned. Only the Multiverse up the Source Wall was ever shown.

That's not true, no. The Mxy scan only showed the circle, but the scan that introduced the Dark Multiverse included that portion of the map.

 

[Xearsay]

Lmao, you deadass tried to use a YouTubers comments on Twitter as evidence to support the Overvoid and the Source being aspects of a godhead. You realize that’s not evidence right? And I’m gonna keep posting this at the start of my comment, since I already know you’re gonna intentionally ignore it.

This is semantics, but I'm not trying to convince you of it regardless.

It’s not semantics. The author statements you’re referencing are literally not evidence from the setting of the story that is written and drawn. Hence why they’re “author statements.” This should be pretty simple to understand.

Also continuing to debate while also refusing to justify your claims like calling what I said “semantics” but then saying “I’m not trying to convince you of it” is stonewalling. As you’re debating with no purpose of reaching a conclusion.

I don't share that notion of what I'm saying at all.

Doesn’t matter and this isn’t a proper rebuttal. The comment you made implying the Overvoid was some separate character that was created decades after The Source, conflicts with your main stance that The Source and the Overvoid are the same being/entity. Whether you agree to this or not, doesn’t change that you did indeed go against your own argument.

That's not true, no. The Mxy scan only showed the circle, but the scan that introduced the Dark Multiverse included that portion of the map.

In that scan, we literally do not see anything labeled the “Overvoid” or anything labeled “The Source.” We specifically see only the Multiverse and Hawkgirl even states, “This is a map of what we believe to be our Multiverse.” Furthermore, the flip-side of the map was the Dark Multiverse, meaning the Overvoid and The Source couldn’t have been on it.

 

[Deagonx]

Lmao, you deadass tried to use a YouTubers comments on Twitter as evidence to support the Overvoid and the Source being aspects of a godhead. You realize that’s not evidence right? And I’m gonna keep posting this at the start of my comment, since I already know you’re gonna intentionally ignore it.

He was referencing his interview with Snyder. Also, stop with the rude comments.

It’s not semantics. The author statements you’re referencing are literally not evidence from the setting of the story that is written and drawn. Hence why they’re “author statements.” This should be pretty simple to understand.

That's not our policy on author statements, so if you'd like to change it that'd be a different conversation.

Also continuing to debate while also refusing to justify your claims like calling what I said “semantics” but then saying “I’m not trying to convince you of it” is stonewalling. As you’re debating with no purpose of reaching a conclusion.

Thats not what stonewalling is. This also isn't a CRT, nor is it a debate. What I'm saying has already been proven and accepted on this site, and your attempts to change it have not been successful.

Doesn’t matter and this isn’t a proper rebuttal

There can't be a proper rebuttal rebuttal what is not a proper argument. The idea that because I recognize the various proof that the Overvoid and Source are the same means I must anachronistically insert the Overvoid into stories the predate Morrison creating is not something I think is reasonable at all. I'm not going to try and change your mind, but I think it's pretty far fetched. What do you expect me to say, exactly? You've done nothing but provide an opinion. I don't share it. The end.

In that scan, we literally do not see anything labeled the “Overvoid” or anything labeled “The Source.”

I'm aware. Many parts of the map are not shown fully detailed, the point was that it wasn't cut off at the Source wall as you attempted to claim.

 

[Xearsay]

He was referencing his interview with Snyder. Also, stop with the rude comments.

Snyder never expressed the Imaginary Axis’s opinion in that video.

That's not our policy on author statements, so if you'd like to change it that'd be a different conversation.

Nothing I said conflicts with VSBW policy on author statements. An author statement is a statement made by an author. It’s not the same as evidence that takes place in the actual setting of the story that’s written and drawn.

Thats not what stonewalling is.

You’re right it’s actually avoiding the burden of proof. A common behavior of yours.

The idea that because I recognize the various proof that the Overvoid and Source are the same means I must anachronistically insert the Overvoid into stories the predate Morrison creating is not something I think is reasonable at all.

How can the Overvoid have been a separated character created after The Source if to you The Source and the Overvoid are the same entity?

I'm aware. Many parts of the map are not shown fully detailed, the point was that it wasn't cut off at the Source wall as you attempted to claim.

It was cut off as the Multiverse is literally the only thing drawn on that page. The Source and the Overvoid are not labeled or drawn anywhere and it wouldn’t make sense for them to be since the Dark Multiverse exists underneath that entire map as the flip side.

 

[Deagonx]

It’s not the same as evidence that takes place in the actual setting of the story that’s written and drawn.

Sure, but I didn't say that either way.

You’re right it’s actually avoiding the burden of proof. A common behavior of yours.

It's not that, either. And this is a second warning about rude comments. If you cannot handle having a discussion politely, you should excuse yourself.

How can the Overvoid have been a separated character created after The Source if to you The Source and the Overvoid are the same entity?

Because the Overvoid was not written until 2008. Similarly, the Source and the Presence have such a relationship, but the Presence predates the Source by 31 years. The fact that two cosmic beings are said to be the same does not mean it makes sense to anachronistically insert them into stories that predate their existence.

It was cut off as the Multiverse is literally the only thing drawn on that page. The Source and the Overvoid are not labeled or drawn anywhere

It wasn't, no. We know Snyder is using the map that Morrison created, so there's no reason to believe "Source" and "Overvoid" are not labelled on the white space outside the map.

it wouldn’t make sense for them to be since the Dark Multiverse exists underneath that entire map as the flip side.

That's not literal, she flipped the map as a metaphor to explain the idea. It's not a two sided map.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

I mean pretty much all things elude to the idea that the Source and Presence are one and the same.

As for the OP itself, it's pretty complicated. We know the Presence created the Light and the Darkness was cast into the Shadowlands. However, if we were using Lucifer's story instead of JLA then it's the same but the Presence shaped Lucifer into the Darkness to contrast his Light. He is defined as Light that needs an opposite. He is Yahweh to Lucifer, God to Devil, Light to Darkness, et cetera.

The only time we actually get the notion that Darkness is part of the Void is with DeMatteis where everything is part of it: Light, Darkness, Chaos, Order, etc.....

So the Great Darkness being a part of this larger God or the Presence isn't a stretch-out idea. I actually agreed to it since in Swamp Thing there is a God beyond both Lightand Darkness. The Presence is Infinite and Eternal like the Void where the concept of Light and Darkness are born.