Nasuverse Upgrade: High 1-A for Swirl of The Root

[Theoretical_Toxic19]

We have standard axioms like (zfc,mk,ngb) but people choose to believe in Canter.

Only scp scalers believe in cantor

This is zfc ??? LoL

It's not

Absolute Infinity by Cantor was mathematical in nature, but that's not very relevant

No there was never any theorem nor axiom that asserted its existence or modeled it

 

[Theoretical_Toxic19]

As well as that, if I remember correctly, there was also the argument of Root being above the Spiral of Origin. This, however, is a bit strange as the primary reason for the Spiral's 1A rating is its apophatic theology. Sure, it has additional evidence in the form of the dimensional theories, and being above duality and whatnot, but its primary justification is apophasis. If you're claiming that it's weaker than the Root due to the Root being apophatic and not the Spiral (due to the whole thing of any description given being weaker than its actual self), this would effectively go against the 1A rating of the Spiral of Origin, no?

What are you saying

 

[Tdjwo]

If ths thread gets closed before I wake up tomorrow without a staff member addressing my new post and waiting for my response, I think it would be justifiable for me to make a new crt when I wake up so that I can address any disagreements.

 

[Maxeez]

Reading through all of this is tiring me .

 

[Tarang123]

What are you saying

Okay, let me just try explaining it simpler. The Swirl's 1A rating is primarily based on apophasis. Yet one of the major points of this upgrade is that the Root is indescribable (apophatic) to everything, including the described and lesser versions of itself which somehow includes the Swirl. Would this not then mean that the Swirl is not 1A as it is not truly apophatic (assuming, of course, that your interpretation is correct)?

 

[Tarang123]

No there was never any theorem nor axiom that asserted its existence or modeled it

Pretty sure that isn't true considering he theorized it to be God and above the math shit he came up with. But whatever, this is derailing

 

[Theoretical_Toxic19]

Reading through all of this is tiring me .

Don't bother

As well as that, if I remember correctly, there was also the argument of Root being above the Spiral of Origin. This, however, is a bit strange as the primary reason for the Spiral's 1A rating is its apophatic theology. Sure, it has additional evidence in the form of the dimensional theories, and being above duality and whatnot, but its primary justification is apophasis. If you're claiming that it's weaker than the Root due to the Root being apophatic and not the Spiral (due to the whole thing of any description given being weaker than its actual self), this would effectively go against the 1A rating of the Spiral of Origin, no?

The term spiral of Origin and the root is not [] the terms indescribable and inconceivable are not enough to capture [] because God has divine ineffability you can't assert anything about God hence why the terms indescribable and inconceivable are not enough to reach []

Neither the spiral nor the root are equivalent to [] those terms are only used by people to try to conceptualize of it

But I'm confused of what's being argued here so I was just clarifying also yes negative theology was used to solidify the statements of being transcendent quantitatively over dimensions

 

[Maxeez]

Okay, let me just try explaining it simpler. The Swirl's 1A rating is primarily based on apophasis. Yet one of the major points of this upgrade is that the Root is indescribable (apophatic) to everything, including the described and lesser versions of itself which somehow includes the Swirl. Would this not then mean that the Swirl is not 1A as it is not truly apophatic (assuming, of course, that your interpretation is correct)?

As it was discussed in the previous thread, the fact that it was described as a 1-A entity makes it automatically above that definition because any mention of [ ] that isn't [ ] is a lesser reality than what [ ] really is :

However, since the Spiral of Origin was called the Spiral of Origin, it was no longer ' '.

Pretty much like that.

 

[Theoretical_Toxic19]

Yet one of the major points of this upgrade is that the Root is indescribable (apophatic) to everything, including the described and lesser versions of itself which somehow includes the Swirl.

It being indescribable is part of it because it has some properties of unreachability the main points where the infinities stuff

And yes the Swirl is below [] but [] is already gaven 1-A I already said this beforehand hence you can't use [] to scale for an upgrade that's why additional evidence of the infinities stuff were gaven and why we had other stuff like Roa's soul being 1-A which [] would exist inaccessibly beyond to justify to help as an addition to high 1-A

The arguments weren't addressed and instead the non Euclidean geometry statement for some reason was nitpicked to refute everything which not everything was contingent upon that statement but I'm tired I don't feel like continuing so idrc

 

[Theoretical_Toxic19]

As it was discussed in the previous thread, the fact that it was described as a 1-A

Unfortunately it was not it was never a 1-A entity in itself negative theology was used to boost that

 

[Tarang123]

But I'm confused of what's being argued here so I was just clarifying also yes negative theology was used to solidify the statements of being transcendent quantitatively over dimensions

Okay, so wouldn't that just not exist then? Because it's not actually apophatic then.

The term spiral of Origin and the root is not [] the terms indescribable and inconceivable are not enough to capture [] because God has divine ineffability you can't assert anything about God hence why the terms indescribable and inconceivable are not enough to reach []

Neither the spiral nor the root are equivalent to [] those terms are only used by people to try to conceptualize of it

When I said Root, I was referring to []. Should have clarified. Let's say [] is A, and the Root and Spiral of Origin are B. I find it a bit circular to make the argument that A is High 1A due to being apophatic over B due to B being lesser descriptions of A, or as you said:

Neither the spiral nor the root are equivalent to [] those terms are only used by people to try to conceptualize of it

The real circular shit comes from the fact that B is 1A precisely because it's supposed to be apophatic. It's both apophatic and yet still bound to conceptualization and description. That doesn't seem right.


An alternate interpretation is that each of these things, are merely descriptions of []. That doesn't mean it particularly scales above them, but closer to the idea that nothing you say about it could ever really give justice to its actual level of existence. It's pretty much the phrase "words can't do it justice" embodied. That's just my personal interpretation of it though

 

[Tarang123]

As it was discussed in the previous thread, the fact that it was described as a 1-A entity makes it automatically above that definition because any mention of [ ] that isn't [ ] is a lesser reality than what [ ] really is :

But it's described as 1A on the basis that it's ineffable, and therefore impossible to actually describe. That's literally the biggest reason why it's 1A on the wiki right now

 

[ShivaShakti]

Alright. It's time for me to truly explain why I think The root should be High 1A using the apparently well translated version of the scan

I would be interpreting the scan from each parts to make the explanation easier and better.

"Infinity is not 「　」. In order to render infinity, one must define limits. Without limits, infinity cannot exist."

The first part shows that Infinity is a concept that refers to something without limits or bounds. The mathematical symbol we know it as is ∞. However, simply having this symbol does not mean that it's 「　」, which is basically an idealized version of something without any limits whatsoever(something infinity isn't). It then notes that in order to make sense of infinity, we need to define limits.
A limit is a value that a sequence or function approaches as the input approaches a certain value or as the sequence continues indefinitely. For example, if we have the sequence 1/2, 3/4, 7/8, 15/16, ... then the limit of this sequence as it continues indefinitely is 1.

Without limits, infinity is undefined and cannot be observed. This is because infinity is not a number in the traditional sense - it is a concept that describes something that is unbounded and never-ending. However, no matter how "infinite" something is, whether countable or uncountable, or aleph 1, 2,3,4, etc it still would always have a limit. That's how we are able to differentiate between Aleph 1, 2, etc. And that's why we can observe infinity in certain contexts.
However, the statement then mentions Ryougi Shiki, described as "immersed in infinity". This means that she is in a situation where there is supposed to be no limits, and everything is unbounded and never-ending. However, Shiki is able to find a non-existent limit and sever it. To interpret this better, it's saying that Shiki was trapped in something infinite but that infinity still had a limit which is why Shiki is able to cut it down because there isn't really "infinity" if limits exists therefore, it's not really infinity.

This means that she is able to identify a boundary where there was none before and create a finite world within the infinite one.

In short, what the entire scan is saying is that infinity and it's notions doesn't really exist. The very concept of infinity itself, whether it's in Aleph 1,2,3,4, etc would always have limits. But 「　」is the embodiment that surpasses the such limit. Think about it again. Firstly, it claimed that limits do not exist in infinity so it's impossible to sever something that doesn't exist. However, without limits, infinity wouldn't exist either.

Basically;

• There are no limits inside infinity.
• But if there's no limit, infinity cannot exist. And that is because the conventional infinities and alephs we all know always have a limit to where they reach. Aleph 1 is lower than aleph 2 which is lower than aleph 3 and so on. This is why there are limits inside infinities.

That's why the final part of the scan then says, If there's actually no limit, then it's not infinity. Instead, it's「　」. That is because 「　」has an absolute superiority above the concept of infinity itself. It is the only thing that has no limits. Ontologically, this makes「 」　represent either the True Infinity or above every sort of infinity based on how you interpret it. As long as it represents something that truly has no limits, then it's 「　」. That means Aleph 1,2,3,4, etc. And that is exactly the scan concludes that anything that has limits would always fall under the wrath of Shiki, who embodies「　」for that is the only thing that embodies or supersedes the true limitless infinity.

This should make it at least High 1A.

Knowing how the Root works, this shouldn't come off as a surprise. If it weren't for the fact that Negative Theology wasn't accepted as High 1A or 0, then this wouldn't have been an issue to understand at all. The root is basically something undescribable in it's very primordial form which is seen as 1A on this site. But that's because we are tiering the Root wrongly.
If we accept that the Root represents or surpasses the notion/concept of infinity itself(as I explained above) since it basically embodies an infinity that actually has no limits unlike aleph 1,2,3,4, then the root would have been at the very least High 1A. Then adding Apophatic Theology to it would have made it higher. But instead, we disregard other explanations of the Root such as this and focus solely on Negative Theology which makes it cap at 1A.
God Unsong for example got High 1A for being above the concept of Infinity

But this very same character still got boundless because his very primordial version which is Atzmus is the nameless and incomprehensible aspect of his High 1A version

Basically, the same way we see Swirl of The Root but there's still the very undescribable version that is 「　」

We have already explained, in every conceivable manner, why this is incorrect in its interpretation, what is being asserted from said interpretation, and foremostly why this does not give a tier.

"Infinity" being percieved by her eyes as "Finite" is not a mathematical statement. It is asserting that even physically infinite objects are ephemeral, and will be subject to dissolution in the root. This is consistent with how her power and The Root has been described in the past. There are no mathematical concepts being invoked. And even if it was, you are extrapolating information which is not implicit, and requires far more evidence than has been presented in this entire thread. Stop using Unsong as an example, for it directly mentions George Cantor and his system of Transfinite Numbers, unlike the evidence presented within this thread.

If we're only going to revisit the same refuted arguments repetitiously, this thread should be closed.

 

[Tarang123]

And yes the Swirl is below [] but [] is already gaven 1-A I already said this beforehand hence you can't use [] to scale for an upgrade that's why additional evidence of the infinities stuff were gaven and why we had other stuff like Roa's soul being 1-A which [] would exist inaccessibly beyond to justify to help as an addition to high 1-A

Isn't Roa's soul 1A for resisting the effects of the Root?

The arguments weren't addressed and instead the non Euclidean geometry statement for some reason was nitpicked to refute everything which not everything was contingent upon that statement but I'm tired I don't feel like continuing so idrc

In all fairness, you were using that non-euclidean argument for quite a while, so it was obviously going to be the point most argued over. But anyway, now we can actually focus on the main arguments of the thread

 

[Theoretical_Toxic19]

The real circular shit comes from the fact that B is 1A precisely because it's supposed to be apophatic. It's both apophatic and yet still bound to conceptualization and description. That doesn't seem right.

Oh I already agreed with this I said this in the other thread but other stuff cough again like Roa's soul are 1-A which [] exists beyond

It's both apophatic and yet still bound to conceptualization and description. That doesn't seem right.

I don't know where this so entailed

An alternate interpretation is that each of these things, are merely descriptions of []. That doesn't mean it particularly scales above them, but closer to the idea that nothing you say about it could ever really give justice to its actual level of existence. It's pretty much the phrase "words can't do it justice" embodied. That's just my personal interpretation of it though

That's not how negative theology works tho lol and the symbol [] doesn't denote for any of that it denotes for God having ineffability therefore you can't speak of God which is called the ineffability thesis that's why things like spiral of Origin which try to reference [] are not [] because they are still predicates which [] can't be captured by any predicate and you can't speak of it

 

[Theoretical_Toxic19]

Isn't Roa's soul 1A for resisting the effects of the Root?

That's crazy however made that should nuke that argument void shiki is accepted as the highest in the hierarchy of power because she's connected deeper than anyone to the root infact [] she'll most likely just erase Roa's if she tried that immediately debunks Roa's soul being completely root level

In all fairness, you were using that non-euclidean argument for quite a while, so it was obviously going to be the point most argued over.

I used that because it was never attacked but I did say r>f still suffices that again

We have already explained, in every conceivable manner, why this is incorrect in its interpretation, what is being asserted from said interpretation, and foremostly why this does not give a tier.

"Infinity" being percieved by her eyes as "Finite" is not a mathematical statement. It is asserting that even physically infinite objects are ephemeral, and will be subject to dissolution in the root. This is consistent with how her power and The Root has been described in the past. There are no mathematical concepts being invoked. And even if it was, you are extrapolating information which is not implicit, and requires far more evidence than has been presented in this entire thread. Stop using Unsong as an example, for it directly mentions George Cantor and his system of Transfinite Numbers, unlike the evidence presented within this thread.

If we're only going to revisit the same refuted arguments repetitiously, this thread should be closed.

pretty sure I addressed but nonetheless I support the thread being closed this is tiring

 

[Tarang123]

Oh I already agreed with this I said this in the other thread but other stuff cough again like Roa's soul are 1-A which [] exists beyond

But Roa's soul is 1A because of interactions with the Root, which wouldn't be 1A if there was no apophasis

That's not how negative theology works tho lol and the symbol [] doesn't denote for any of that it denotes for God having ineffability therefore you can't speak of God which is called the ineffability thesis that's why things like spiral of Origin which try to reference [] are not [] because they are still predicates which [] can't be captured by any predicate and you can't speak of it

I never said that it denotes anything like that. I literally just said it's ineffable. That's the point of the descriptions. They're descriptions to describe it, but can't ever really get to how impressive it actually is. That doesn't change what is known like it being above dimensional theories, dualities, and all concepts. That's [], not some attempted description of it

 

[Reiner04]

Only scp scalers believe in cantor

Go to CSAP buddy.

 

[Theoretical_Toxic19]

Go to CSAP buddy.

So mean ion even like csap

 

[Theoretical_Toxic19]

Mfs in vsbw threads got jokes no cap

 

[Robo432343]

So mean ion even like csap

yea you do
u have a whole ass nasuverse page in it

 

[Rakih_Elyan]

Ten hours until grace.

You still can convince some staff in that ten hours or the CRT will be closed.

 

[Maxeez]

But Roa's soul is 1A because of interactions with the Root, which wouldn't be 1A if there was no apophasis.

Roa's soul isn't interacting with the Root but he in fact modified it so it doesn't come back to the Root when he dies.

 

[Chasekilleen]

I would be interpreting the scan from each parts to make the explanation easier and better.

Bro really made me go back to the third book of 空の境界 just to find something that doesn't even exist in the first place, there is nothing that even mentions the word Euclidean nor nothing remotely close to any mathematical theories within the third book. By the way, your post is just pure fan fiction and headcanon, the thing it talks about is not even literal infinite, it's just flowery language to describe that the "place" where Ryougi was stuck in was supposed to be eternal, with no exit points. The aleph and cantor shit you guys have been making up just fanfiction which I am daring to bet that CSAP came up with.

Not only is geometry, but the following Euclidean, aleph, cantor nor any mathematical theory have been stated anywhere when 根源の渦 is mentioned.
This is specifically to the mods and admins but I just wasted my time and I cannot find anything that's remotely 1A according to the current rating.

The closest I can find is that infamous quote from Shiki that states:

「……根源の渦。すべての原因が渦巻いている場所、すべてが用意されていて、だから何もない場所。それがわたしの正体。ただ繋がっているだけだけど、わたしはソレの一部だもの。それって同じ存在ってコトでしょう？
だからわたしはなんだってできる。……そうね、目に見えないほど小さな物質の法則を組み替えたり、遡って生物そのものの系統樹を変えてしまうことだって可能だわ。今の世界の秩序を組み替えることだって簡単よ。この世界を作り直すんじゃない。新しい世界で古い世界を握り潰すの」

言って、彼女は小さく笑った。自身を蔑むように、ばかばかしいと口元を歪めて

"The Spiral of Origin, it is the place where everything originated from, where everything is prepared, and thus, it is the place of nothingness. And that is my true nature, I am merely connected to it [Spiral of Origin]. This means that we are same existence wouldn't it?
That is why I am able to do anything. I can rearrange the laws of molecules that's invisible to the human eye, I am able to manipulate the gene tree of various organisms. Rearranging this world is nothing but a sweat, I can not only rebuild this very world but I am able to crush it from another new world."
Shiki says this as her lips twists, letting out a small chuckle as if she's mocking herself for saying something so ridiculous.

Spoiler: 空の境界下根源の渦

 

[Qawsedf234]

I don't recall saying "Euclidean space gets you to high 1-B or high 1-A" again

You're attempting to using recursive infinities to get to 1-A and then High 1-A. Euclidean Space doesn't work like that. It's just vector points.

As long as it represents something that truly has no limits, then it's 「　」. That means Aleph 1,2,3,4, etc.

Aleph-0 is something with no true limits. That isn't a justification for a Large Cardinal. You're base reasoning also doesn't work because it's not based in the Nasuverse. You would need to prove that Aleph-1 to Aleph-infinity exists conceptually in-universe, which you haven't done.

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

Doubt you change 3+ staff votes from 1 comment so just spend time on better thing than debating about some iffy explanation.

i cant read

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

Mfers, why y'all keep derailing the thread.

Anyways, with those context, high 1-A root will be nulled.

wait a sec you still have to argue with my thread

 

[Rakih_Elyan]

wait a sec you still have to argue with my thread

A silent place lol.

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

A silent place lol.

only because this thread was prioritized if this thread passed i was gonna change the argument to tier 0

 

[Planck69]

I've been asked by @Reiner to close this thread.