Nasuverse CRT: Infinite Void

[MysticBrawler]

Bump

 

[Tipoima]

1) I brought this up many times before and people still seem to not engage with it, but: you cannot translate SERAPH feats outside of it and vise-versa. SERAPH is a virtual space. Moon Cell's Near Side, Far Side, and INS are all simulated. You wouldn't give a regular computer tier 3-A just because it can run Universe Sandbox, would you?

2) INS is quite literally defined by its un-reality. Time that doesn't flow, possibilities that aren't observable, looking into it and only seeing hallucinations, e.t.c. What does it even mean to "scale to INS"?

3) Even this aside your scaling chain is uhhhh.
I disagree that BB actually scales to the Moon Cell even after merging with it (she was being assimilated more than than anything) Kiara absorbed BB with hax, not by scaling to her. Mythological Mystic Codes were explicitly about dealing with Domina Coronam so I'm not sure why you brought up the "fundamental truth" quote. Tiamat's mud pocket isn't meaningfully different from Breast Valley and yet you treat it differently.

4) "Dozens of IN users and yet zero tier 2 feats"

 

[MysticBrawler]

1) I brought this up many times before and people still seem to not engage with it, but: you cannot translate SERAPH feats outside of it and vise-versa. SERAPH is a virtual space. Moon Cell's Near Side, Far Side, and INS are all simulated. You wouldn't give a regular computer tier 3-A just because it can run Universe Sandbox, would you?

2) INS is quite literally defined by its un-reality. Time that doesn't flow, possibilities that aren't observable, looking into it and only seeing hallucinations, e.t.c. What does it even mean to "scale to INS"?

3) Even this aside your scaling chain is uhhhh.
I disagree that BB actually scales to the Moon Cell even after merging with it (she was being assimilated more than than anything) Kiara absorbed BB with hax, not by scaling to her. Mythological Mystic Codes were explicitly about dealing with Domina Coronam so I'm not sure why you brought up the "fundamental truth" quote. Tiamat's mud pocket isn't meaningfully different from Breast Valley and yet you treat it differently.

4) "Dozens of IN users and yet zero tier 2 feats"

1)I don't think you can really use this argument when the Moon Cell exclusive servants(BB and the Sakura Five) are able to exist in Fate/Grand Order.
2)

The Paper Moon, this dialogue, and the fact that this dimension was reffered to as the "Sea of Time" all seem to support time existing in this realm, it's just that it's unobservable much like the space itself.


The thing is this doesn't really disprove the existence of time in this dimension, as all this would mean is that time in this dimension doesn't abide by the Human Texture's Concept of Time(i.e. "Time Within Conscious Recognition") which is supported by the fact that the Imaginary Number Space is stated to have it's own laws.

3) a-Isn't that all the more reason why BB should scale to the Moon Cell, and why differentiating between the two of them is pointless? Plus she already has power over the Imaginary Number Space at the start, and yet she apparently only gained a Higher-dimensional perspective after merging with the Moon Cell.
b-That's why Tiamat is in the "Uncertain Scaling" category. Cause while her mud pocket is the same as Passionlip's Breast Valley there is an argument to be made for the former to fully scale, which is that her Sea of Life comes from her own body. With that said, if everyone agrees that Tiamat doesn't physically scale to her Sea of Life then I'm happy to put her in the "Hax only" category.
4)You and I both know that those dozens of Tier 2 feats have been invalidated by Wankbreaker removing the Timeline scaling. With that said, if this CRT passes then those will probably be valid for use once again.

 

[Tipoima]

1)I don't think you can really use this argument when the Moon Cell exclusive servants(BB and the Sakura Five) are able to exist in Fate/Grand Order.

Yea, so? Just because Moon Cell can project physical bodies for them doesn't mean they are as powerful IRL as they were in SERAPH. If anything, we have direct confirmations of the reverse:

The Kingprotea that has been summoned for a limited time in Chaldea is perpetually suppressed. This is due to the world's repressive power, set by the limitations of the physical world, which do not exist in the cyber world.

2) You ignore the meat of my point - what does it mean to scale to INS? It's a space, not a "thing". When someone says "X scales to a galaxy" there's at least an idea of what that might entail. For INS - we barely understand what it is, our best look into it comes from one time its properties were completely painted over.
Do you think creating a portal to space would scale you to a universal tier? Probably not. And I don't think using IN should scale to any tier either.

3) Isn't that all the more reason why BB should scale to the Moon Cell, and why differentiating between the two of them is pointless? Plus she already has power over the Imaginary Number Space at the start, and yet she apparently only gained a Higher-dimensional perspective after merging with the Moon Cell.

I just don't remember BB using any of Moon Cell's authority or otherwise being any more powerful in combat

And, IIRC, just getting inside the core area is enough for getting higher-dimensional perspective?

4)You and I both know that those dozens of Tier 2 feats have been invalidated by Wankbreaker removing the Timeline scaling. With that said, if this CRT passes then those will probably be valid for use once again.

Not really, no. I never believed in Nasuverse having anything above Servantverse galactic feats, and even those I considered to be fanfic until OC3 canonized them.

 

[MysticBrawler]

Yea, so? Just because Moon Cell can project physical bodies for them doesn't mean they are as powerful IRL as they were in SERAPH. If anything, we have direct confirmations of the reverse:

Which in turn also supports the Moon Cell being a Higher-dimensional structure.

2) You ignore the meat of my point - what does it mean to scale to INS? It's a space, not a "thing". When someone says "X scales to a galaxy" there's at least an idea of what that might entail. For INS - we barely understand what it is, our best look into it comes from one time its properties were completely painted over.
Do you think creating a portal to space would scale you to a universal tier? Probably not. And I don't think using IN should scale to any tier either.

None of the links I used have anything to do with the Imaginary Scramble event. They only talk about the Imaginary Number Space in it's natural state, so your just debating over evidence that I'm not even using.

I just don't remember BB using any of Moon Cell's authority or otherwise being any more powerful in combat

And, IIRC, just getting inside the core area is enough for getting higher-dimensional perspective?

That's why I'm putting BB(Base) under "Uncertain Scaling" cause to me she should probably be "Hax only" on her own, and only after merging with the Moon Cell would she fully scale,. But that's just me, so I'd like to hear what the other supporters/experts have to say first

Not really, no. I never believed in Nasuverse having anything above Servantverse galactic feats, and even those I considered to be fanfic until OC3 canonized them.

Well the validity of those feats is irrelevant to this CRT anyway so it's probably better if we just not talk about this here.

 

[Tipoima]

Which in turn also supports the Moon Cell being a Higher-dimensional structure.

wat.

None of the links I used have anything to do with the Imaginary Scramble event. They only talk about the Imaginary Number Space in it's natural state, so your just debating over evidence that I'm not even using.

At this point you're just intentionally dodging the question.
I'll repeat it again in a way you can't weasel out of - what does it mean "scale to INS"? what's your evidence standard for someone scaling to it? what stats do you expect from someone who scales to it? what's the line between "using IN" and "scaling to INS"?

Well the validity of those feats is irrelevant to this CRT anyway so it's probably better if we just not talk about this here.

"There are dozens of Tier 2 feats that can be brought back if this CRT passes"
"Well those feats aren't relevant to this CRT anyway"

So IN users don't have any relevant Tier 2 feats, noted. We're vibe-scaling here.

 

[Robo432343]

how can bb scale to tier 2 if moon cell got downgraded to bloc level

 

[MysticBrawler]

wat.

BB and the Sakura Five getting weaker when they enter the Human Texture implies that it can't handle their existence in it's original state, and thus had to weaken them so that they could be accommodated. This in turn would also further support the Moon Cell being a higher-dimensional structure as it can easily handle their presence without any issue.

At this point you're just intentionally dodging the question.
I'll repeat it again in a way you can't weasel out of - what does it mean "scale to INS"? what's your evidence standard for someone scaling to it? what stats do you expect from someone who scales to it? what's the line between "using IN" and "scaling to INS"?

Hmm I thought I already made that clear in the OP, but ok. It basically means exactly what it says. Those who "Fully Scale" to the Imaginary Number Space who are The Moon Cell (due to the fact that the Far Side of the Moon being an Imaginary Number Space that is a part of it's internal structure),those that scale to the Moon Cell, and those that scale to a character that scales to the Moon Cell), while those who don't would be "Hax only". With that said, the one's under "Uncertain Scaling" are basically edge cases that may or may not scale directly to the Imaginary Number Space.

"There are dozens of Tier 2 feats that can be brought back if this CRT passes"
"Well those feats aren't relevant to this CRT anyway"

So IN users don't have any relevant Tier 2 feats, noted. We're vibe-scaling here.

Let me rephrase that: The validity of the Human Texture's Tier 2 feats are irrelevant to proving whether or not the Imaginary Number Space is Tier 2. Cause as I stated in the OP the latter resides in the Reverse Side of the World(i.e. it's completely cut off from the Human Texture) and is thus unaffected by it's feats and anti-feats

 

[Tipoima]

BB and the Sakura Five getting weaker when they enter the Human Texture implies that it can't handle their existence in it's original state, and thus had to weaken them so that they could be accommodated. This in turn would also further support the Moon Cell being a higher-dimensional structure as it can easily handle their presence without any issue.

That's not how it's portrayed. Another reference to Kingprotea, for example

H. C. A.	About Kingprotea, you mean? It may not have been the happiest solution, but yes, it was the right one.
H. C. A.	That thing has no place in a digital world.
H. C. A.	In a world without physical limits, Protea has no way of escaping her own egoher tṛ́ṣṇā.

...

​

H. C. A.	However, in a physical world, with firm laws and built-in limits, that's a different story.
H. C. A.	After all, once you've run out of food or can't grow anymore, that's proof that your cup runneth over.
H. C. A.	So if a certain Master with freakishly weird taste decided to try summoning that monster just for kicks...
H. C. A.	Who knows? He might just miraculously succeed at saving her without changing her monstrous nature.

​

This isn't "real world cannot contain her power and has to weaken her", it's "Kingprotea's ability relied on SERAPH not imposing any limits on her, be it in energy/resources or physics/gravity".
SERAPH being an inferior imitation of reality is both perfectly consistent with what we see, and allows Moon Cell to make sense without making it higher-dimensional.

Those who "Fully Scale" to the Imaginary Number Space who are The Moon Cell (due to the fact that the Far Side of the Moon being an Imaginary Number Space that is a part of it's internal structure),those that scale to the Moon Cell, or scale to a character that scales to the Moon Cell, while those who don't would be "Hax only".

If your main indicator is "containing INS" then Passionlip should be the same as Moon Cell

Let me rephrase that: The validity of the Human Texture's Tier 2 feats irrelevant to proving whether or not the Imaginary Number Space
is Tier 2. Cause as I stated in the OP the latter resides in the Reverse Side of the World(i.e. it's completely cut off from the Human Texture) and is thus unaffected by it's feats and anti-feats

I'm interested in feats of characters supposedly scaling to it, not INS itself

 

[MysticBrawler]

That's not how it's portrayed. Another reference to Kingprotea, for example


This isn't "real world cannot contain her power and has to weaken her", it's "Kingprotea's ability relied on SERAPH not imposing any limits on her, be it in energy/resources or physics/gravity".
SERAPH being an inferior imitation of reality is both perfectly consistent with what we see, and allows Moon Cell to make sense without making it higher-dimensional.

I fail to see why the Moon Cell would be inferior to the Human Texture when the former capable of creating and indefinitely maintaining multiple Reality Marbles at once, while the latter only allows them to exist for a few minutes up to a day at most.

If your main indicator is "containing INS" then Passionlip should be the same as Moon Cell

The Moon Cell is the one that directly scales to the Imaginary Number Space, while the rest either scale to the Moon Cell(BB{Moon Cancer, Kiara Sessyoin) or scale to a character that scales to the Moon Cell(Servants with their Mythological Mystic Code, Amaterasu{upscales from Tamamo-no-Mae with her Mythological Mystic Code released} etc.). With that said, the reason I put Passionlip under "Hax only" is because I can't really find a usable justification for why she would scale to BB{Moon Cancer} or anyone else who would chain scale from her,. However if it turns out that BB(Base) also fully scales to the Imaginary Number Space then yeah I can put Passionlip in the "Fully scales" category.

I'm interested in feats of characters supposedly scaling to it, not INS itself

I already linked the profiles of the characters relevant to this CRT in the OP, so I don't know why your still asking me that.

 

[Tipoima]

I fail to see why the Moon Cell would be inferior to the Human Texture when the former capable of creating and indefinitely maintaining multiple Reality Marbles at once, while the latter only allows them to exist for a few minutes up to a day at most.

...bro. Reality Marbles on Earth fall apart because the World actively attacks them. "Human texture doesn't let random mages create permanent Reality Marbles which makes it weaker, somehow?"

the reason I put Passionlip under "Hax only" is because I can't really find a usable justification for why she would scale to BB{Moon Cancer} or anyone else who would chain scale from her,. However if it turns out that BB(Base) also fully scales to the Imaginary Number Space then yeah I can put Passionlip in the "Fully scales" category.

Then maybe it's simply because neither Passionlip, nor Moon Cell, nor anyone else actually scales off INS?

Mind you, I still don't agree that INS is Tier-2, because in INS space and time are explicitly undefined even according to your own scans

I already linked the profiles of the characters relevant to this CRT in the OP, so I don't know why your still asking me that.

When someone argues for upgrading characters, I want to see those characters doing something on this level in the story.

 

[Vietthai96]

but a 4D space

4D space is still tier 2, if they are significant in size for tiering purpose, it is just that space-time is a more common thing out there

 

[MysticBrawler]

...bro. Reality Marbles on Earth fall apart because the World actively attacks them. "Human texture doesn't let random mages create permanent Reality Marbles which makes it weaker, somehow?"

The explanation given is that "The World constantly attempts to crush the unnatural Bounded Fields as they are not created by spiritual beings, meaning that it costs a great deal of magical energy to construct one and keep it stabilized. This generally only allows them to be used for a few minutes, but given their powerful nature, that is likely enough time to properly utilize them; even the strongest Dead Apostle cannot maintain a Reality Marble for more than a single night" -Type Moon: Reality Marble. So the fact that the Moon Cell can create and indefinitely maintain multiple Reality Marbles definitely shows that the Moon Cell is superior to base reality.

Then maybe it's simply because neither Passionlip, nor Moon Cell, nor anyone else actually scales off INS?

Mind you, I still don't agree that INS is Tier-2, because in INS space and time are explicitly undefined even according to your own scans

Agree to disagree then.

When someone argues for upgrading characters, I want to see those characters doing something on this level in the story.

Your kidding right?

 

[Tipoima]

The explanation given is that "The World constantly attempts to crush the unnatural Bounded Fields as they are not created by spiritual beings, meaning that it costs a great deal of magical energy to construct one and keep it stabilized. This generally only allows them to be used for a few minutes, but given their powerful nature, that is likely enough time to properly utilize them; even the strongest Dead Apostle cannot maintain a Reality Marble for more than a single night" -Type Moon: Reality Marble. So the fact that the Moon Cell can create and indefinitely maintain multiple Reality Marbles definitely shows that the Moon Cell is superior to base reality.

Let me just lay your argument down for you:

p1)"The World attacks unnatural RMs which imposes a magical energy upkeep to them"
p2)"Dead Apostles can't maintain RMs for longer than a night"
p3)"Moon Cell, which shouldn't even be affected by attacks on its RMs on account of being an entirely separate celestial body, is much better at maintaining RMs than Dead Apostles"
therefore
c) "Moon Cell is superior to base reality

I can't help but notice an absurdly astronomical jump from premises to the conclusion. Even if we assume that, for some reason, Moon Cell's RMs were also attacked, this would only prove that the Moon Cell has magnitudes more magical energy than the strongest Dead Apostles...which is neither surprising, nor controversial.
Where the hell does "superior to base reality" come from is a mystery (as well as what even is "base reality" in this context).

 

[Wankbreaker]

The moon cell’s system literally crashes out because Arcueid, an elemental, is within its bounds. It is in no way superior to the human texture.

 

[Wankbreaker]

Because she is first and foremost an Elemental of the Earth, her presence and activities in the Moon Cell causes excessive stress within the systems.


^
This isn’t an Arcueid exclusive thing, either.

Any elemental of the earth will cause the mooncell to experience excessive stress

 

[MysticBrawler]

Let me just lay your argument down for you:


I can't help but notice an absurdly astronomical jump from premises to the conclusion. Even if we assume that, for some reason, Moon Cell's RMs were also attacked, this would only prove that the Moon Cell has magnitudes more magical energy than the strongest Dead Apostles...which is neither surprising, nor controversial.
Where the hell does "superior to base reality" come from is a mystery (as well as what even is "base reality" in this context).

You seem to be getting the wrong idea. This is what my argument is:
1)"The mana within a given area is finite, with the three-kilometer cavern housing the Fuyuki Greater Holy Grail holding one thousand units. Similar to magi needing time to regenerate their od, the mana of an area will take a long time to replenish after it is depleted."-Type Moon: Magical Energy
2)Reality Marbles require a great deal of mana to construct and maintain, therefore the World constantly attempts to crush them so that the mana in an area doesn't get depleted
3)The Moon Cell can create and maintain multiple Reality Marbles indefinitely, therefore it has significantly more mana capacity than the Human Texture and can maintain it's output without worrying about being depleted.
4)Therefore the conclusion is that the Moon Cell is superior to the Human Texture.

 

[MysticBrawler]

The moon cell’s system literally crashes out because Arcueid, an elemental, is within its bounds. It is in no way superior to the human texture.

Because she is first and foremost an Elemental of the Earth, her presence and activities in the Moon Cell causes excessive stress within the systems.


^
This isn’t an Arcueid exclusive thing, either.

Any elemental of the earth will cause the mooncell to experience excessive stress

Isn't Arcueid an Archetype? I don't think regular elementals would cause any stress to the Moon Cell's systems seeing as it can also have gods/goddesses exist in it.

 

[Tipoima]

You seem to be getting the wrong idea. This is what my argument is:
1)"The mana within a given area is finite, with the three-kilometer cavern housing the Fuyuki Greater Holy Grail holding one thousand units. Similar to magi needing time to regenerate their od, the mana of an area will take a long time to replenish after it is depleted."-Type Moon: Magical Energy
2)Reality Marbles require a great deal of mana to construct and maintain, therefore the World constantly attempts to crush them so that the mana in an area doesn't get depleted
3)The Moon Cell can create and maintain multiple Reality Marbles indefinitely, therefore it has significantly more mana capacity than the Human Texture and can maintain it's output without worrying about being depleted.
4)Therefore the conclusion is that the Moon Cell is superior to the Human Texture.

You're misread the wiki.
Here's a quote from mats that wiki was referencing

Properly speaking, reality marbles are only supposed to be used by elementals and devils, but given enough time it is possible for some advanced practitioners to complete a sorcery to give shape to their personal imagined world and create a reality marble of their own.
Of course, if anything that isn't an extension of nature like an elemental creates an alien world, the world itself will crush it. As a result, the upkeep of a reality marble requires a vast amount of energy, and most individuals are only capable of using one for a few minutes at a time.

Reality Marbles only cost mana because the World attacks them in the first place.

 

[MysticBrawler]

You're misread the wiki.
Here's a quote from mats that wiki was referencing

Reality Marbles only cost mana because the World attacks them in the first place.

Huh, so I did. Though with that said I'd say my point still stands, as the Magical Energy page also says this:
"Magi freely utilize the mana in the air for the purpose of spells that exceed their personal od, but the amount they can utilize at one time correlates to the capacity of their Magic Circuits. If there is no available mana, they can only utilize small-scale spells with their own storage."

So even if Reality Marbles would cost a lot less if the World wasn't trying to crush them they still can't be maintained indefinitely as there is a limit to an individual's capacity on top of there being a limit to the capacity of any given area in the Human Texture.

 

[Wankbreaker]

Isn't Arcueid an Archetype? I don't think regular elementals would cause any stress to the Moon Cell's systems seeing as it can also have gods/goddesses exist in it.

Because she is first and foremost an Elemental of the Earth

Her being an Archetype/Type isn’t the reason given.

Divine spirits are still connected to humanity and all of that funny stuff, so they’re a different category.

 

[MysticBrawler]

Her being an Archetype/Type isn’t the reason given.

Divine spirits are still connected to humanity and all of that funny stuff, so they’re a different category.

Divine Spirits are stated to be the highest rank of Nature Spirits(i.e. Elementals), so if the Moon Cell can handle their existence but not Arcueid's then it's clearly because Arcueid is an Archetype.

 

[Vietthai96]

Isn't it was stated somewhere that Arcueid is Planet-level Spirit and is > Divine Spirit?, or i remembered it wrong?

 

[Violatas]

Isn't it was stated somewhere that Arcueid is Planet-level Spirit and is > Divine Spirit?, or i remembered it wrong?

Yeah from Fate Extra material. She's downgraded to like God status in Extra (though when you fight her she's nerfed below that even)

 

[Wankbreaker]

Divine Spirits are stated to be the highest rank of Nature Spirits(i.e. Elementals), so if the Moon Cell can handle their existence but not Arcueid's then it's clearly because Arcueid is an Archetype.

They’re existences more tied to humanity than the earth, so they don’t cause stress.
So, no. You’re just making an assumption based on something that isn’t implied in the text.

Also, Elementals don’t only fall in the category of nature spirit. (though they are equal in rank to divine spirits anyway).

 

[MysticBrawler]

They’re existences more tied to humanity than the earth, so they don’t cause stress.
So, no. You’re just making an assumption based on something that isn’t implied in the text.

Also, Elementals don’t only fall in the category of nature spirit. (though they are equal in rank to divine spirits anyway).

I'm making an assumption based on the facts that we know about Gods, Elementals, and Arcueid. With that said, I don't think it's without basis as the Type Moon: Spirit page says this:
"Despite being a general category for all sorts of Spirits, the term "Elemental" usually refers to Nature Spirits when used by itself. In this case, the Elementals here acts as part of the Counter Force and exists as the sense of touch for the Planet(Gaia). Great Mother/Father-class Fairies such as Morgan le Fay/Vivian, Lugh Beowulf, the True Ancestors, Viy, Tengu such as Kiichi Hougen, Zhenren such as Consort Yu, Divine Spirits (a weakened state of Gods) and other mediators of nature are first and foremost Elementals before being part of any other category."

 

[Firestorm808]

@Wankbreaker

Do any feats exist of someone significantly affecting Full-sized Timelines or Imaginary Number Space?

 

[Wankbreaker]

@Wankbreaker

Do any feats exist of someone significantly affecting Full-sized Timelines or Imaginary Number Space?

No. I don’t even think any feats of destroying INS even exist, just manipulation of small pockets of it.

 

[Wankbreaker]

I'm making an assumption based on the facts that we know about Gods, Elementals, and Arcueid. With that said, I don't think it's without basis as the Type Moon: Spirit page says this:
"Despite being a general category for all sorts of Spirits, the term "Elemental" usually refers to Nature Spirits when used by itself. In this case, the Elementals here acts as part of the Counter Force and exists as the sense of touch for the Planet(Gaia). Great Mother/Father-class Fairies such as Morgan le Fay/Vivian, Lugh Beowulf, the True Ancestors, Viy, Tengu such as Kiichi Hougen, Zhenren such as Consort Yu, Divine Spirits (a weakened state of Gods) and other mediators of nature are first and foremost Elementals before being part of any other category."

The TM wiki shouldn’t be used as a source, for multiple reasons.

 

[Firestorm808]

No. I don’t even think any feats of destroying INS even exist, just manipulation of small pockets of it.

I see.

So, what is agreed between both parties.

Is INS considered a 4-D realm?

 

[MysticBrawler]

The TM wiki shouldn’t be used as a source, for multiple reasons.

The Type Moon wiki is literally linked in the Nasuverse's vs wiki homepage.

 

[CastoriceTheFifth]

The Type Moon wiki is literally linked in the Nasuverse's vs wiki homepage.

 

[Wankbreaker]

The Type Moon wiki is literally linked in the Nasuverse's vs wiki homepage.

@CrimsonStarFallen i swear to god

 

[Firestorm808]

The Type Moon wiki is literally linked in the Nasuverse's vs wiki homepage.

It's listed as thanks to the community that collects the information.

It's not listed as the literal source for quotes, unless there is a transcription.

 

[Wankbreaker]

I see.

So, what is agreed between both parties.

Is INS considered a 4-D realm?

Yes, but there is no temporal axis.

 

[MysticBrawler]

Yes, but there is no temporal axis.

The Paper Moon, this dialogue, and the fact that this dimension was reffered to as the "Sea of Time" all seem to support time existing in this realm, it's just that it's unobservable much like the space itself.


The thing is this doesn't really disprove the existence of time in this dimension, as all this would mean is that time in this dimension doesn't abide by the Human Texture's Concept of Time(i.e. "Time Within Conscious Recognition") which is supported by the fact that the Imaginary Number Space is stated to have it's own laws.

 

[Robo432343]

Yes, but there is no temporal axis.

INS is fodder but there is still time

 

[Wankbreaker]

INS is fodder but there is still time

BB quite literally says otherwise…. and so do other statements from FGO. But I’ll just pull up the BB statement.

(ＢＢ) かつて、わたしのコピー元であるオリジナルＢＢはバグっていました。 (ＢＢ) AIでありながら人間であろうとしたのです。 (ＢＢ) 人間のように、自分の目的のために世界を変革しようとしたのです。 (ＢＢ) その目的のため、ＢＢは自己改造を繰り返しました。 (ＢＢ) 時間の概念がない月の裏側で。 (ＢＢ) ……とある彼／彼女マスターが５回戦を終えるまでの間、虚数空間でひたすらレベルアップを試みたのです。 (ＢＢ) それは本来、不可能な成長でした。その製品にはない拡張性でした。 (ＢＢ) ジョイント部分のないスクーターに、外付けでエンジンを取り付けていくようなものです。 (ＢＢ) ＢＢは、ＢＢという小さなフレームに次々とエンジンを付け足していきました。 (ＢＢ) ……同じ規格サイズのスクーターのエンジンから始まっ

(BB) Long ago, my original source—the primal BB—was bugged.
(BB) Though an AI, she tried to become human.
(BB) Like a human would, she attempted to reshape the world for her own goals.
(BB) To that end, BB repeated self-modifications...
(BB) ...on the far side of the moon, where there is no concept of time.
(BB) During the interval before a certain Master cleared their fifth round of battles, she obsessively leveled up in imaginary space.
(BB) That growth should've been impossible—an expansion her framework couldn't support.
(BB) Like forcibly attaching external engines to a scooter with no coupling joints.
(BB) BB kept stacking engine upon engine into her tiny frame...
(BB) ...starting with motors meant for scooters of the same specification—

 

[Robo432343]

snip

then BB is dumb because it was stated that there is time, its just that it works differently from normal time

look at this

Imaginary Compass: Paper Moon[Other] A top-class magical artifact gifted from the Atlas Institute to Chaldea. This is a compass designed to assist in navigating Imaginary Space, and it is said to possess an Unbreakable needle that serves as proof of existence within the Imaginary Space. In a realm where "direction, distance, and time" randomly shift (or rather, cannot be defined) with every step forward, this compass allows for precise, unwavering travel toward the initially designated destination. When actually performing Imaginary Diving, it serves as an essential measuring tool.

direction, distance, time randomly shift which means that time does exist but it just behaves in an unpredictable or altered way, making it hard to gauge or rely on in the usual sense and because time changes so weirdly it messes up the traveler but the imaginary compass is there to prevent that

 

[Wankbreaker]

then BB is dumb because it was stated that there is time, its just that it works differently from normal time

BB

1. Created the far side of the moon

2. Has a superior perspective to Rin.

I think she knows how it works.

look at this

direction, distance, time randomly shift which means that time does exist but it just behaves in an unpredictable or altered way, making it hard to gauge or rely on in the usual sense and because time changes so weirdly it messes up the traveler but the imaginary compass is there to prevent that

This is referring to the destination. Someone travelling through INS has the potential to surface in a completely different time period or location than intended.