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Nasuverse Mega CRT Part 1: 1-A Root

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Dont post it here, but in the discussion thread. This is one of the reason why Nasu thread is a pain, people keep posting stuff that is unrelated to the thread.......
 
Unfortunately I do not have time to debate at length, but thankfully Paul Frank said basically everything I was going to on Unified Language. Also most of the stuff that was disagreed with like resonating with Akasha itself and scaling to it, and the powers effecting Shiki despite her resistance to it is also already on Godword's profile so you would need a separate CRT to get that stuff removed anyway if one did not want it scaling to Akasha and the like
 
The Mooncells operate as the Holy Grail only within the scope of Earth. While Mooncells clearly demonstrated the achievement of building an eight-dimensional barrier, he was not able to demonstrate the full power of being a high-dimensional being to exert an infinite influence on the low-dimensional. I don't think Mooncells can easily destroy a sub-dimensional universe that is lower than eight dimensions. Furthermore, there is no evidence that Mooncells can exert infinite influence on the sub-dimension as a high-dimensional being. For the easiest example, the reality of the Type Moon worldview is 3dimensions, and Mooncells are observing the 3dimensions Earth through 4dimensions, but without vast amounts of observational data accumulated over tens of thousands of years, it is impossible to even operate as a Holy Grail within the Earth's range.

Also, Zeletch uses a tool called a book to observe parallel worlds, but this does not mean that he can recognize low-dimension as fiction and exert infinite influence on it. Zelretch is just a traveler who recognizes and moves around the parallel world, and I don't think that tearing a book can destroy that parallel world. You should not focus on the word 'book', which is a tool Zeletch needs to observe parallel worlds, and many people are distorting the truth just as Zeletch perceives low-dimension as fiction. I assure you, Zelretch is not a high-dimensional being, and this is not even worth arguing about.
 
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Paul_Frank said:
I fail to see how someone with a connection to the root being slightly resistant to it means it's not on equal footing

If they were completely unable to resist it, that'd actually imply that it's on a higher level than the others connected to it.

And people born with a connection to the root having reality warping abilities while this doesn't also doesn't seem like a good reason for them not to scale. They do different things, one is meant to work on humans, and so it does, the other one is a more general use of the root's power.

The unified language also explicitly resonates with the root.

In any case, it has also shown to work on Shiki

"“That is not what you will do, Miss Shiki,” the mage says with an air of authority as if to emphasize a point. I should be at him by now, making him regret those words. But instead, they somehow hold me in place, preventing me from performing an action that something inside me tells me is purely wrong, even as my mind says everything about it is right."

"The mental block still makes moving difficult, but I manage to pump
strength into my legs to close the distance, raise my hand—
“Your sight is lost.”
I hear his voice for a split second, and in that vital moment, it echoes in my mind like an undeniable truth. The next thing I know, I see neither hide nor hair of Satsuki Kurogiri, and my knife swings only at empty air."

This next one is where her slight resistance comes from, and even then, she's affected

“Your Eyes will not avail you here.”
The statement echoes confidently above and below the chapel, and darkness rapidly begins to curtain everything. Through his words, I am deprived of even the faintest light in moments, and become surrounded by a world of darkness.
“Hmph. The first tongue has less effect on you than I expected,” he grumbles. “The connection of both of our spells to the spiral of origin grants you some measure of resistance perhaps. But in the end, the death you cling so close to remains unseen. As does everything else"

This is also despite his usage of it not being as good as it could be

"Godword is the only known one able to reproduce this universal language, and work his Art through the high speech. He communicates to all men, a channel through which that demiurgic force, that ultimate origin passes through. That his lack of talent for magehood prevents him from truly using it dangerously is a blessing for us.”

Here is a quote also explicitly saying it taps into and uses Akasha

“If the medium of words is used, yes. But the man is different. He speaks not truly to men and beast, but to the soul in them that still contains that last connection to something higher. There is always a part of us that is culled from that primeval spiral of origin, and when the high speech speaks to the soul, our fallen selves are compelled to obey. To deny it is to ontologically deny the very structure of reality, and thus impossible. An absolute language, that starts from statement and then proceeds to become truth. It is the ultimate form of hypnotism. He accesses the Akashic Record unconsciously, and through the high speech, taps into it to channel his will. It’s how he draws forth the memory, not from your mind, but from the Record of things past that reality still contains."
Click to expand...

First Issue : Translation

Are you sure about what you're quoting? Because you... are using Cokesato quotes, which is pretty much instant disqualification. For example, Magecraft is never referred to as fricking "Art".
Cokesato is notorious for messing with the translations.
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/693494655278383224/815519734963503104/20210228_033953.png

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/693494655278383224/815519815481294849/20210228_034109.png


He outright admits to changing things because he felt like it. Which, compared to real translators, is utterly misrepresenting not only the world, but the setting as a whole.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/693494655278383224/815522271426904084/20210228_035139.png


This is why you don't use Cokesato translations.


And here is more of his translations getting dunked on : https://nrvnqsr.fandom.com/wiki/Kara_no_Kyoukai_Resources


Nobody has fully translated KnK yet, and we have proof Coke adds his own headcanon. At best, it's unreliable. And just because he's the only translation available doesnt mean it should be used when we know it's inaccurate.

Cokesato changes so much stuff it's insane. In his hands, Nasuverse might as well be : Fate/Cokesato timeline.

Second Issue : It still doesn't change the core of my previous post

Even if hypothetically assuming that Cokesato's scans are magically accurate, it still doesn't really change anything. Nothing in canon has the UL relating to "ontological reality". It just says denying the words would be the same as denying your own existence.

The Unified Language is connected to the Root, and we already have evidence to support that one's individual connection to the root is important. Manaka and Ryougi are key examples - they're both connected to it from birth, but their abilities with it are drastically at different levels.

You guys to make it automatically Root-level, 1-A hax, except its only feats are messing with normal Ryougi. This is forgetting so much context, thinking a character is operating at their max 100% of the time.

And again, the UL can't affect the natural world. So it shouldn't scale anyway. They're not comparable. It shouldn't be used as an example of 1A.


So I still disagree with UL automatically being Root-level and hence 1-A hax. And finally, the "connection" to it should not be a valid argument either on its own. Canonically, the Root is the foundation of everything, everything comes from it. So by that logic everything in Nasu would be 1-A. This is just NLF.

TL;DR of the TL;DR A 1-A hax rating for Unified Language is not granted without any feats on that scale. And again it can't affect the natural world anyway.
 
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I will say that even though the source of an ability may be at a certain scope, there still needs to be proof that said ability can act at such a scope.

Anyway, let's continue. We can discuss who scales if this is accepted.
 
leo1235 said:
The Mooncells operate as the Holy Grail only within the scope of Earth. While Mooncells clearly demonstrated the achievement of building an eight-dimensional barrier, he was not able to demonstrate the full power of being a high-dimensional being to exert an infinite influence on the low-dimensional. I don't think Mooncells can easily destroy a sub-dimensional universe that is lower than eight dimensions. Furthermore, there is no evidence that Mooncells can exert infinite influence on the sub-dimension as a high-dimensional being. For the easiest example, the reality of the Type Moon worldview is 3dimensions, and Mooncells are observing the 3dimensions Earth through 4dimensions, but without vast amounts of observational data accumulated over tens of thousands of years, it is impossible to even operate as a Holy Grail within the Earth's range.

Also, Zeletch uses a tool called a book to observe parallel worlds, but this does not mean that he can recognize low-dimension as fiction and exert infinite influence on it. Zelretch is just a traveler who recognizes and moves around the parallel world, and I don't think that tearing a book can destroy that parallel world. You should not focus on the word 'book', which is a tool Zeletch needs to observe parallel worlds, and many people are distorting the truth just as Zeletch perceives low-dimension as fiction. I assure you, Zelretch is not a high-dimensional being, and this is not even worth arguing about.
Click to expand...
I don't understand you last text for moon cell what you mean by that?

"but without vast amounts of observational data accumulated over tens of thousands of years, it is impossible to even operate as a Holy Grail within the Earth's range."


For Zelrechhe doesn't use a tool for observing parrallele world, it's litteraly is True magic that allow him that, the book here is more here to allow him to observe indirectly.

I don't understand what you mean by infinite influence on it. We just need to show that higher dimmension are ontologically supperior to lower dimmension.

The ability of zelrech is litteraly the ability to make what he observed become the only truth and then that finish by erase the other timeline as they become meaningless.

And the novel litteraly show that destroy page, destroy these timeline and that the book create new page for new timeline.

When the man slipped his finger into the sky, the heavenly bodies displayed on the surrounding walls began to revolve.
“Oh, this cut-off isn’t so… no, it’s the worst. That damned giant spider will wake up. It’s a century too early to face that.”
Then, as if to match his words, the pages in the book hovering in front of the man turned with a flutter, inscribing multifarious information in real-time.
The thickness of the book was about that of a standard encyclopedia.
Regardless, as the man guided his finger through the air, thousands— tens of thousands of pages were born and erased.
 
leo1235 said:
The Mooncells operate as the Holy Grail only within the scope of Earth
Click to expand...
This doesn't really matter due to Earth/Gaia's nature, and is also provably false since it is a universal observational AI. It grabbed the 8-D wall from elsewhere.
leo1235 said:
I don't think Mooncells can easily destroy a sub-dimensional universe that is lower than eight dimensions. Furthermore, there is no evidence that Mooncells can exert infinite influence on the sub-dimension as a high-dimensional being. For the easiest example, the reality of the Type Moon worldview is 3dimensions, and Mooncells are observing the 3dimensions Earth through 4dimensions, but without vast amounts of observational data accumulated over tens of thousands of years, it is impossible to even operate as a Holy Grail within the Earth's range.
Click to expand...
Most of this is also false. First of all, i said to leave the MoonCell having 8-D shit to other threads.

Infinite "influence" over a lower dimension isn't needed to exist, they just need to be proven to be ontologically superior, which they are given the entire concept of compact universes given by Rin.

The Zelretch stuff has been explained above.

And finally, none of this matters to the thread, which is about the Root.
 
Nepuko said:
Second Issue : It still doesn't change the core of my previous post

Even if hypothetically assuming that Cokesato's scans are magically accurate, it still doesn't really change anything. Nothing in canon has the UL relating to "ontological reality". It just says denying the words would be the same as denying your own existence.

The Unified Language is connected to the Root, and we already have evidence to support that one's individual connection to the root is important. Manaka and Ryougi are key examples - they're both connected to it from birth, but their abilities with it are drastically at different levels.

You guys to make it automatically Root-level, 1-A hax, except its only feats are messing with normal Ryougi. This is forgetting so much context, thinking a character is operating at their max 100% of the time.

And again, the UL can't affect the natural world. So it shouldn't scale anyway. They're not comparable. It shouldn't be used as an example of 1A.


So I still disagree with UL automatically being Root-level and hence 1-A hax. And finally, the "connection" to it should not be a valid argument either on its own. Canonically, the Root is the foundation of everything, everything comes from it. So by that logic everything in Nasu would be 1-A. This is just NLF.

TL;DR of the TL;DR A 1-A hax rating for Unified Language is not granted without any feats on that scale. And again it can't affect the natural world anyway.
Click to expand...

I'll ignore the translation part for now and address this, since that series of events is consistent across both that translation, the movies, and other tls I've seen

Your entire argument is "this ability doesn't reality warp, so it must not be 1-A" that's what it boils down to

I don't think you understand how much of an inane leap in logic it is to go "both of these things are directly powered by the root, but this one doesn't have the ability to destroy reality with a thought so its clearly not 1-A."

You say that Manaka and Shiki both being connected shows there can be different levels to it, sure, someone being the root, and someone just being connected to it can be at different levels I guess, but this still doesn't support your idea of the unified language not scaling for some reason.

The root being the foundation of everything wouldn't make everything scale to 1-A, that's a false equivalency, because not everything is explicitly using the root, resonating with it, etc. This however, is, it is explicitly made to have been powered by the root, which is why the entire series of events at the end of Oblivion Recording can even happen.

You keep bringing up "it can't affect the natural world" like that at all matters. That's not how it works, something doesn't have to affect every part of reality to have a certain rating for its hax. If you have 2-A mindhax, you don't need to be able to destroy the multiverse with it for instance.

So with that part of it being a complete non argument, you're left with "its not 1-A because it's not 1-A". Your entire argument has relied on "its a different level because this one doesn't reality warp." when reality warping is not at all a requirement for an ability to be a tier. The fact Shiki is affected is proof of it not being some infinite degrees weaker when it's using the same power source, as the entire reason she can resist, even in other translations, is that she is also connected to the root. You can argue this is base Shiki and not Void, okay.

This still doesn't change the fact of the matter, that this exchange shows its on a similar level, otherwise her connection wouldn't give a slight degree of resistance, if the unified language was completely nothing compared to any other connections to the root, it would do nothing to her. You can't even say that it's only because it's Ryougi that it was used on, because the connection is intrinsic to her body, which is why Void can exist in the first place.
 
Paul_Frank said:
I'll ignore the translation part for now and address this, since that series of events is consistent across both that translation, the movies, and other tls I've seen

Your entire argument is "this ability doesn't reality warp, so it must not be 1-A" that's what it boils down to

I don't think you understand how much of an inane leap in logic it is to go "both of these things are directly powered by the root, but this one doesn't have the ability to destroy reality with a thought so its clearly not 1-A."

You say that Manaka and Shiki both being connected shows there can be different levels to it, sure, someone being the root, and someone just being connected to it can be at different levels I guess, but this still doesn't support your idea of the unified language not scaling for some reason.

The root being the foundation of everything wouldn't make everything scale to 1-A, that's a false equivalency, because not everything is explicitly using the root, resonating with it, etc. This however, is, it is explicitly made to have been powered by the root, which is why the entire series of events at the end of Oblivion Recording can even happen.

You keep bringing up "it can't affect the natural world" like that at all matters. That's not how it works, something doesn't have to affect every part of reality to have a certain rating for its hax. If you have 2-A mindhax, you don't need to be able to destroy the multiverse with it for instance.

So with that part of it being a complete non argument, you're left with "its not 1-A because it's not 1-A". Your entire argument has relied on "its a different level because this one doesn't reality warp." when reality warping is not at all a requirement for an ability to be a tier. The fact Shiki is affected is proof of it not being some infinite degrees weaker when it's using the same power source, as the entire reason she can resist, even in other translations, is that she is also connected to the root. You can argue this is base Shiki and not Void, okay.

This still doesn't change the fact of the matter, that this exchange shows its on a similar level, otherwise her connection wouldn't give a slight degree of resistance, if the unified language was completely nothing compared to any other connections to the root, it would do nothing to her. You can't even say that it's only because it's Ryougi that it was used on, because the connection is intrinsic to her body, which is why Void can exist in the first place.
Click to expand...
1)
No. My argument was that it shouldn't be 1-A simply because it's "connected" to the Root, everything is. The "depth" of connection differs from individual. Its feats differ individually, and none ever came close to Root. So this is straight up NLF.

Also Ryougi shiki is not the frigging Root. Context matters, context that is being ignored here.

Her Third Personality literally questions this. She is connected to the root more than anything else, but the Root is a place not a person.

Just because the connection is intrinsic does not mean that the connection is always strongest. There is a reason the third personality has to take over to do anything.

The Third Personality,Void Shiki, describes her connection to the Root as simply the ability to "go deeper" than normal Ryougi.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/693494655278383224/815629214945509376/Spiral_of_Radix_2.png


She even calls herself "a part of it". Comparing normal Ryougi's connection to the Root to the Void Personality is like comparing a dripping faucet to a waterfall.

The reason why it worked on Ryougi at all is because the Third Personality didn't come out. And the point isn't that it can't warp reality, its that it literally is specifically tailored to doing one thing with clearly defined limitations.

Void Shiki is undoubtedly Root-tier since she has the strongest connection in the entire franchise, but Unified Language has never been pitted against Void Shiki.
Output changes depending on which personality is in place. This has been obvious since the entire concept was introduced.

So again, there is no reason to magically make Unified Language Root-level hax.

2)The root being the foundation of everything wouldn't make everything scale to 1-A, that's a false equivalency, because not everything is explicitly using the root [...]

Everything is using the Root. No living thing in Nasuverse exists without it. Every living thing unconsciously resonates with it on a subconscious level. That's literally what Origins are, and all humans match their actions to be in harmony with the driving force that originated them from the moment they enter into the world. We see this with Kiritsugu, who's Origin prevents him from fixing things. We see this with Ryougi, who's Origin of Nothingness makes her function like an empty vessel. We see this with Mikiya, who hasn't even awakened his, who literally cannot bring himself to inflict harm on anyone even if his life is in danger.

Everything resonates with the Root at some level.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/693494655278383224/815632817567957022/Origins.png


3)You keep bringing up "it can't affect the natural world" like that at all matters. That's not how it works, something doesn't have to affect every part of reality to have a certain rating for its hax. If you have 2-A mindhax, you don't need to be able to destroy the multiverse with it for instance.

No, I mention that as a defining, canonical limitation applied to it.

Unlike other abilities actually connected to the Root, this is not even close to being at that level. It's not even hyped to be around that level beyond Cokesato's "ontological reality" nonsense that came from nowhere. Your entire argument is that since it's connected to the Root, it has to be Root-tier. Which is also a false-equivalency since literally every Origin is connected to the Root, which would make Souren, Lio Shirazumi, and other Awakened Origin Users on that same tier.
They're not.


Hell, the only canonical information we have about the UL comes from this tiny interview with Nasu himself:

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/693494655278383224/815634699501568010/Unifed_Language.png


The command isn't even absolute according to Nasu himself, as it's limited :

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/693494655278383224/815635352760090654/UL.png


4)So with that part of it being a complete non argument, you're left with "its not 1-A because it's not 1-A". Your entire argument has [...] even say that it's only because it's Ryougi that it was used on, because the connection is intrinsic to her body, which is why Void can exist in the first place.

Once again, that's not the argument at all. Refer to previous parts.

The fact that Shiki is affected shouldn't be the reason you scale the UL to the Root, because Base Ryougi does not have the same connection as Void Shiki. Just because the connection is intrinsic does not mean that the connection strength is always the same. We know this is a fact, as the output changes depending on the Personality in control and has been that way since the entire concept was introduced. There is a reason the third personality has to take over to do anything, and when it does, shows feats vastly above base Ryougi and is hyped beyond belief by Nasu himself. The reason why it worked on Ryougi at all is because the Third Personality didn't come out, meaning even her standard connection was enough to resist it.


Further proof that the connection differs between personalities is this:

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/693494655278383224/815637350012420139/Spiral_Of_Radix_1.png



Indicated by the fact that she says she can go "even deeper" than base Shiki.

In other words, unless the UL was used against Void Shiki (it wasn't), it should not scale. Everything else is more or less fine, but not this. Void Shiki being Root-level? Without a doubt. Root being above dimensional theory? That as well.

Unified Language somehow being Root-level? No, just... no.


I hope this is all I'll have to say on this. If even after this the issue isn't clear, even with sources, then I don't think it will ever be... 😅




Well, on that note, have a nice day everyone.
 
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TL;DR

If it doesn't f*ck up an actual 1-A in some fashion, it really shouldn't scale.

Now moving on, we wait for staff.
 
This thread isnt even about whi scales to it tho? Talking sbout it is derailment, this thread is from the Roots tier and that alone.

Who scales to it will be discussed in Part II
 
I can see "Possibly 1-A" being a thing given the quotes on how it transcends concepts and life and death and names and is just an indescribable emptiness which originates all things.

But I'd like if we could make it "At least 1-C, possibly 1-A" or something. Because the quotes can imply 1-A but I'm not sure they are 100% definitive.
 
I can see this point of view, this definetly isn't the most objective 1-A i feel like, although i feel it's implied enough that solid 1-A is good.

Opinions, specially from staff, would be appreciated (although i unfortunally do not know who to contact, but you agreeing on even just possibly 1-A is actually a huge relief)
 
Are any of you good at evaluating if this qualifies for 1-A or not?

Nope.
 
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