Nasuverse Discussion Board (New Forum)

[Grand_Saver_Ritsuka]

https://forums.sufficientvelocity.com/threads/type-moon-general.4892/page-3118?post=13857773#post-13857773

I think this covers enough, but it's a long topic to try to explain all.

Mirai Fukuin is literally an entire novel volume about how knowing the future can be awkward, to be fair, so excuse my inability to do a TL/DR.

my poor brain

 

[LehenDuo]

Fun fact - I once showed some parts of Nasu writtings to my teacher of Japanese. His reaction was basically "Who the **** is this guy and why the hell does he write like that?"

So... Evreyone's poor brain, I guess?

Guess Nasu is something like a Hegel-equivalent of a VN writer

 

[Grand_Saver_Ritsuka]

Fun fact - I once showed some parts of Nasu writtings to my teacher of Japanese. His reaction was basically "Who the **** is this guy and why the hell does he write like that?"

So... Evreyone's poor brain, I guess?

Guess Nasu is something like a Hegel-equivalent of a VN writer

So Higher dimensions DOES have R/F difference with lower ones correct?

 

[LehenDuo]

There is nothing that could be compared to such a distinction in Nasuverse when talking about Record or Observation at least. It's really ******* questionable if they could actually be described as proper Dimensions at all, but that's more my opinion if anything - even though people affirm they are with their opinions... If anything, at least as far as "reaching an outcome", beings per the Universe of Records are more limited, as there can be no "hope" of a different outcome given a certain process.

Using the book example, that is by the way misinterpreted so fucknig much, but anyway - If you are in page 4, page 5 is already written and there's no such a thing as changing it. Its a finished book. You don't have the ability to rewrite it - you exist as the thing that follows the narrative already written, if you are in Uni of Record.

People read it as "you get to read it and do what you want", but that is just a massive freestyling of what's written and what has been said in Mirai Fukuin, for example. The Volitional element of "having choice" shouldn't exist, to begin with. Understanding the future as a Record means the meaningless "birth" of it by the process (actions/present) established.

To humans, the future is ever merely a matter of 『consideration』.
　By way of precognition, I glimpse the future -- not to the purpose of changing it, [but such that] by way of living within the presentnow, I can create the future.
　Irrelevant of the extent to which the outcome has been seen, the future hasn't even yet been born.
　And were an immutable future observed, it would rather than an observation of the future be as [nothing more or less] than a decision [of such].

This is about how a Human deals with the observation of the future. Now, to a being of Record, the future already exists. It's not observation, not even a decision, but a matter of course. Just like an equation x = y is already defined in a point beyond the one you are, and so is before the point you are, Record beings exist as per a manner of course, not of choice or possibilities. (Here observation means Nasuverse Observation, by the way, not "knowing what happens")

This is highly related to how Gods are existences that could ever reach one outcome/result, and because of that were lesser than humans as far as "living beings" status - this is talked about in one of Gilgamesh's Secret Gardens, cant remember exactly which one.

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

The most detailed description of an observer's prespective is Zelretch's interlude in strange Fake. It is titled "Observer. Or, Character Creation", which gives credence to R/F; this is properly also a reference to the original strange Fake April Fools trailer teasing a video game with a customizable player character.

It isn't that Zelretch is incapable of intervention, it is that if he directly intervenes in a timeline he will 'confirm' that world and doom other timelines to erasure, so instead he back-calculates from a desired outcome and nudges events indirectly; in strange Fake he inserts a character into the war, even though a different person with an identical name and appearance already lives in Romania.

How do the claims that the Universe of Record having nothing to do with higher dimensionality, and that a Universe of Record perspective makes character incapable of changing outcomes, mesh with one of the main pieces of evidence cited for the interpretation adopted here:

It hasn't been mentioned on the thread, but there will be a strange Fake anime special covering at least some of the first volume, with the same cast as the animated PV. and the next volume will be released in Winter (even though the latest one is early in its translation).

---

There is commentary from Nasu hidden in Melty Blood Type Lumina's script, where he teases a crossover between old Tsukihime and the Tsukihime remake, and confirms that their characters fought each other in a tournament.

It is commentary to these lines about Mash and Neco Arc going on a journey to different worlds:

The reassuring presence:

/*-comment- ＭＢvsＦateにしか見えないが、実は旧月姫（レン）vs月姫Ｒの戦いなのである */ /*-comment- いつか、とっておきの時にお話しますので、 それまでお待ちください。 */ \l

It only looks like MBvs Fate, but it's actually a battle between Old Tsukihime (Len) vs Tsukihime R. I'll tell you about it someday, at a special time. Please wait until then.

 

[LehenDuo]

The most detailed description of an observer's prespective is Zelretch's interlude in strange Fake. It is titled "Observer. Or, Character Creation", which gives credence to R/F; this is properly also a reference to the original strange Fake April Fools trailer teasing a video game with a customizable player character.

It isn't that Zelretch is incapable of intervention, it is that if he directly intervenes in a timeline he will 'confirm' that world and doom other timelines to erasure, so instead he back-calculates from a desired outcome and nudges events indirectly; in strange Fake he inserts a character into the war, even though a different person with an identical name and appearance already lives in Romania.

Don't understand what you mean. Yeah - he's an OBSERVER, of course his observation would render the perceived outcome as set in stone per the fact he possesses volition. Unless you are saying Zelretch became an Universe of Record being. The fact Mooncell didn't possess volition - and the Dict bits go out of their way to say this is a NECESSARY quality for it to retain proper function - is one of the things that permits it be what it is, an Adjacent Worlds Simulator.

How do the claims that the Universe of Record having nothing to do with higher dimensionality, and that a Universe of Record perspective makes character incapable of changing outcomes, mesh with one of the main pieces of evidence cited for the interpretation adopted here:

I remember someone, probably Comun of fallacies even, doing a translation themselves and comparing to this image... It basically is mirrormoon level bullshit, this has been called out multiple times also. But anyway, the post I linked is a wall of text to even try to explain what the **** Record and Observation even means, and they do talk about exactly what you are talking. Even Moon Cell isn't a proper "standard" Universe of Record, because it exists as an Adjacent Worlds Simulator.

You could even question if this described ability (retroactively making things be as she wants, which isn't all that surprising, because Animusphere magecraft does something similar at least in the time aspect) isn't her NP, to begin with, instead of a characteristic of beings of Record. (Which "mysteriously" makes all contradictions go away...)

But I do remember you that BB was defeated in the end... So the so to say fiction was stronger than reality, or in Nasu-way, the oscillations caled hope overcame the outcome of the process so established. Or, maybe, that such distinction doesn't exist.

The people who actually translated half F/GO text (instead as freestyling it and calling it a localization as in the EN version of the game) and read the originals always speak of this topic with doubt. I find it funny someone using a cheap translation can have so much certainty. In the end, trying to force Nasuverse into a clearly Comics based system in one aspect that is so metaphysical that you could just say it's pure ideology without any concrete information actually being discussed, similarly to how it happens in basically all the others oriental verses, leads to stupid.

 

[Grand_Saver_Ritsuka]

Don't understand what you mean. Yeah - he's an OBSERVER, of course his observation would render the perceived outcome as set in stone per the fact he possesses volition. Unless you are saying Zelretch became an Universe of Record being. The fact Mooncell didn't possess volition - and the Dict bits go out of their way to say this is a NECESSARY quality for it to retain proper function - is one of the things that permits it be what it is, an Adjacent Worlds Simulator.



I remember someone, probably Comun of fallacies even, doing a translation themselves and comparing to this image... It basically is mirrormoon level bullshit, this has been called out multiple times also. But anyway, the post I linked is a wall of text to even try to explain what the **** Record and Observation even means, and they do talk about exactly what you are talking. Even Moon Cell isn't a proper "standard" Universe of Record, because it exists as an Adjacent Worlds Simulator.

You could even question if this described ability (retroactively making things be as she wants, which isn't all that surprising, because Animusphere magecraft does something similar at least in the time aspect) isn't her NP, to begin with, instead of a characteristic of beings of Record. (Which "mysteriously" makes all contradictions go away...)

But I do remember you that BB was defeated in the end... So the so to say fiction was stronger than reality, or in Nasu-way, the oscillations caled hope overcame the outcome of the process so established. Or, maybe, that such distinction doesn't exist.

The people who actually translated half F/GO text (instead as freestyling it and calling it a localization as in the EN version of the game) and read the originals always speak of this topic with doubt. I find it funny someone using a cheap translation can have so much certainty. In the end, trying to force Nasuverse into a clearly Comics based system in one aspect that is so metaphysical that you could just say it's pure ideology without any concrete information actually being discussed, similarly to how it happens in basically all the others oriental verses, leads to stupid.

Does zelretch sees timelines as fiction though? This suggests something else

Fate/strange fake (Free-Range Spoilers) - Page 100

Because I guess this deserves its own article. Or at least a dedicated spot for discussion. Manga thread Original Translation thread Nakulas' full translation of the original April Fool's Books: http://imgur.com/IsxwzQD.jpg

forums.nrvnqsr.com

 

[LehenDuo]

Does zelretch sees timelines as fiction though? This suggests something else

Fate/strange fake (Free-Range Spoilers) - Page 100

Because I guess this deserves its own article. Or at least a dedicated spot for discussion. Manga thread Original Translation thread Nakulas' full translation of the original April Fool's Books: http://imgur.com/IsxwzQD.jpg

forums.nrvnqsr.com

Yeah, if anything, the description is really ******* similar to him in the center of the Starlog of Kaleid (that is an equivalent of the World Egg/Celestial Egg as far as anyone I've read says), at least to me. And it again confirms the aspect that the individual has on the outcome, even if Zelretch can somehow "align" things towards a certain direction/axis/polarization. Caubac even says the person itself has somewhat of a final say on the end point, different from his labyrinths.

As Kaleidoscope function, one of them at least, has already been said to be alteration/manipulation of the records (and remembering 2nd is Manipulation of Adjacent Worlds), you could say what he does is basically creating QTLs, or at least something similar? All Worlds which Foundations don't align with the established QTL, as per Pruning, die. But, all those World which Foundation are still similar, even if there are different manners the outcome was reached - Items Permissible of Revision that Waver talks about in F/GO -, can continue for as long as they remain similar enough to the trunk of the tree of time.

One thing I noticed rereading the thread (this one https://vsbattles.com/threads/can-i-have-a-validation-about-r-f-in-nasuverse.143506/) - The fundamental wrong assumption that everyone seems to make is that "Universe of Record" is always linked to the capacity of seeing Adjacent Worlds, which has never been said anywhere. The only thing that has been said is that Time is perceived as past, present and future as individual entities/of individual values. Observation doesn't experience all timelines at the same time, so why would Record do?

EDIT: About the relation of observation and volition - Gudao observes Musashi as the winner of the fight between her and Kojiro Infinity. That part suggests the fight would never ever come to conclusion naturally, but the observation made by the protagonist was what decided the outcome and made it "exist".

This is probably one of the most "metaphysical" things in Nasuverse, and the lore has been scattered between the work since ******* KnK. To have one single paragraph and saying "that's it" is to ignore the many, many times descriptions or in-character things have been said that were figuratively, "wrong" or only partial. Who even is Rin to know about something even a Heroic Spirit couldn't explain (Waver in Zero event)?

Nerve Circuits, for example, were such a misunderstood topic in FSN, because people just literally ignored the "Switch" thing. El-Melloi didn't help with the Luvia thing turning her nerves into Circuits without mentioning the switch, and then Tsukihime RE made Roa use Shiki's nerves as Circuits literally. Even if Mahou Tsukai tried to elucidate the concept a bit, most people have never read it because it lacks a complete TL. One little misconception lead to so much discussion it's almost ridiculous looking back...

 

[John985]

Two hours had been several hundred years. Three hours became more than a thousand.

Her perception expanded as she stabilized as a Divine Spirit. Now, connected to the Root, time no longer mattered. She was now able to search for a point in the past while remaining in the present; not because she could see the past, but because she could see everything in the instant that her divine Saint Graph was compressed back into the form of a Ghost Liner.

There were limits to her power, of course. The bounds of her vision were limited by her scale as a Divine Spirit, and Faker was only a newborn god. She could only calculate points that she had a connection to.

Wew, at first I thought it should be Gods, but on the new TL, even Divine Spirit is connected to the root.

 

[LehenDuo]

Wew, at first I thought it should be Gods, but on the new TL, even Divine Spirit is connected to the root.

The difference between God and Divine Spirit is the existence of a material/physical body that is truly living, or as Nasu say, "being flesh"/incarnated, something like that. (Recall Tiamat and the "flesh of a God" thing in Babylon)
But Divine Spirits in the Age of Man can't use said connection in actuality (that would be their Authority being used as Authorities) anyway without going puff

And I'm almost certain that this only applies to Faker here because of the ritual thing, it's not a Divine Spirit-made into Servants things.

 

[John985]

Nah, Volume 10 actually have tons of statement that gods are connected to the root. And on the season 2 of Case File as well.

 

[LehenDuo]

Yes, I know, what I mean is that it's not of any use/it bears no meaning. Gods and Root is a thing since... UBW DVD release?

It's same thing with Shiki's Body that was born connected to the Root. Okay, it's connect...
If they hadn't done the Origin awakening thing, she would still be a liveless body to this day.

As the Tl says - "not because she could see the past, but because she could see everything in the instant that her divine Saint Graph was compressed back into the form of a Ghost Liner."

Remember this is in the context of the Shadow Ascension Ritual using the Albion Tomb + Emiya Magecraft

 

[Ubdon]

So R>f in nasu might get debunk soon? need to prepare new description if this happen

 

[LehenDuo]

So R>f in nasu might get debunk soon? need to prepare new description if this happen

The awkward part is that R>F is exactly the opposite of how most Mahou Tsukai demonstrations points to, and by proxy, Nasuverse. If anything, F > R is the true relation, as Flat Snark's creations of fantasy itself can play by their own rules because of Tradition/Folklore Protection.

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

Don't understand what you mean. Yeah - he's an OBSERVER, of course his observation would render the perceived outcome as set in stone per the fact he possesses volition. Unless you are saying Zelretch became an Universe of Record being. The fact Mooncell didn't possess volition - and the Dict bits go out of their way to say this is a NECESSARY quality for it to retain proper function - is one of the things that permits it be what it is, an Adjacent Worlds Simulator.

People with perception are observers. The relevant question is what perspective they are observing from. Zelretch simultaneously views the past/present/future, so that would fall under Universe of Record.

Are you talking about this part of the dictionary?

Originally Moon Cell was just an observation device made by an otherworldly civilization. Moon Cell only contained equipment to observe and record life on Earth, but after many, many years it came to have its current functionality. Its mission was to observe, but when trying to observe there can be no “blind spots.” (Heisenberg’s Uncertainty Principle. The observer determines an event by observing it. What isn’t observed is not certain.) An observation device must be fair. If it is to observe, there must be nothing unseen. Thus, it required capabilities for knowing everything about the Earth. To record all things without bias, it needed performance greater than that of an observation device. And so, it had made a giant leap in evolution. It had enhanced its functions to the point where it went from making observations to surveilling, even gaining control over the administration of the planet. The greater its enhancements, the more complex its administration policy. It created many terminals and even made artificial intelligences to manage functions for each section. (These were later utilized for the NPCs and advanced AIs of the Holy Grail War.) However, on the other hand, Moon Cell was stubbornly opposed to loading artificial intelligence into itself. A true observer should not have a mind. If an observer has an intellect and knowledge, the meaning of things observed will be decided by the observer. For that reason, it kept to maintaining its absolute objectivity as an eye, doing so while always dismantling the emerging semblances of sapience that it had incorporated to administrate its functions. Thus, this computer has no conception of good and evil, no desire for the future, not even an outcome. Moon Cell is just a container that exists on the Moon. A typewriter that God left behind. An observation lens drilled into the Moon. In the future, when looking back on this crystal device that just shows people dreams, Moon Cell will be called thus. The Moon’s Eye. A bottomless Klein Cube. The observer of everything on our planet, and a Type-Moon whose master is no longer around.

If so, then this goes against your position. While an unbiased and emotionless observer would perpetually observe while changing nothing, the Moon Cell has the power to change things, and characters who gain access to its perspective and power can change outcomes.

I remember someone, probably Comun of fallacies even, doing a translation themselves and comparing to this image... It basically is mirrormoon level bullshit, this has been called out multiple times also. But anyway, the post I linked is a wall of text to even try to explain what the **** Record and Observation even means, and they do talk about exactly what you are talking. Even Moon Cell isn't a proper "standard" Universe of Record, because it exists as an Adjacent Worlds Simulator.

You could even question if this described ability (retroactively making things be as she wants, which isn't all that surprising, because Animusphere magecraft does something similar at least in the time aspect) isn't her NP, to begin with, instead of a characteristic of beings of Record. (Which "mysteriously" makes all contradictions go away...)

But I do remember you that BB was defeated in the end... So the so to say fiction was stronger than reality, or in Nasu-way, the oscillations caled hope overcame the outcome of the process so established. Or, maybe, that such distinction doesn't exist.

The people who actually translated half F/GO text (instead as freestyling it and calling it a localization as in the EN version of the game) and read the originals always speak of this topic with doubt. I find it funny someone using a cheap translation can have so much certainty. In the end, trying to force Nasuverse into a clearly Comics based system in one aspect that is so metaphysical that you could just say it's pure ideology without any concrete information actually being discussed, similarly to how it happens in basically all the others oriental verses, leads to stupid.

This is pretty much the translation being used here. If you manage to find the alternative translation, feel free to share it so we can learn which parts of the passage is inaccurately translated. I posted the defining passage that is supposed to explain what the term means, which is more reliable than extrapolating on something a disputed theory/interpretation didn't go in-depth on.

I mean BB was defeated after effort to replicate her power at the same rank, so she wasn't just power of friendship'd.

I am open with Nasuverse translations (even official ones) being bad; but the better translation should be offered or at least it should be explained where the translation is bad (assuming you are not advocating to completely discard it). Nasuverse is inspired by all sort of things; if it happened to coincidently fit the requirements of VSBW's tiering system then people will upgrade.

Does zelretch sees timelines as fiction though? This suggests something else

Fate/strange fake (Free-Range Spoilers) - Page 100

Because I guess this deserves its own article. Or at least a dedicated spot for discussion. Manga thread Original Translation thread Nakulas' full translation of the original April Fool's Books: http://imgur.com/IsxwzQD.jpg

forums.nrvnqsr.com

The character doesn't have to spell out "I view you as fiction because I have higher dimension". But to have a higher dimensional perspective such that lower dimensional objects are perceived as akin to fictional constructs or something infinitesimal. In the CCC explanation, the lower dimension is analogized as timeline on a flat scroll or a book that can be interacted with, and in Zelretch's case he views the timelines as if they are pages in a book that can easily get erased/replaced.

 

[John985]

If only I have Archuria.......I cant 3T this node.

 

[LehenDuo]

People with perception are observers. The relevant question is what perspective they are observing from. Zelretch simultaneously views the past/present/future, so that would fall under Universe of Record.

If so, then this goes against your position. While an unbiased and emotionless observer would perpetually observe while changing nothing, the Moon Cell has the power to change things, and characters who gain access to its perspective and power can change outcomes.

"If an observer has an intellect and knowledge, the meaning of things observed will be decided by the observer."
"Thus, this computer has no conception of good and evil, no desire for the future, not even an outcome."


Now, BB's NP:

01 - Cursed Cutting Crater (C. C. C.)
An attack on the world by BB in control of the Moon Cell.
Also called the spiritron imaginary pit.

A World Purge through event rewriting that makes maximum use of the EX skill "Conception of All Animals"Potnia Theron BB has acquired.

The goddess who is the mother of earth mother goddesses that created earth is, in other words, the 'root' that created all creation. This anti-world Noble Phantasm outputs that information through an ultra-precise 3D printer and crushes the present world with the world the user desires.

The space eroded by BB becomes imaginary space and a curse that consumes reality. "CCC", as the name suggests, is a cursed pit that bores out reality.

In addition to scattering all objects inside on an atomic level and reconstructing them, it is capable of overwriting and reprinting information in fields such as luck and coincidence. While theoretical, it is also thought possible to distort the time axis by interfering with gravitational fields and rewrite the law of cause and effect.

The character doesn't have to spell out "I view you as fiction because I have higher dimension". But to have a higher dimensional perspective such that lower dimensional objects are perceived as akin to fictional constructs or something infinitesimal.

But there is nothing being seen as fictional, infinitesimal or not real in the Zelretch scene, man.
He himself is worried about what axis he would be destroying, how he would be affecting the outcome and etc. And even with all that, Caubac goes out of his way to say that "Of course, unlike my labyrinth, the destination one makes depends upon the person.”
And we are talking about Zelretch Kaleidoscope, that is, a person doing something that should be categorically impossible.

In the CCC explanation, the lower dimension is analogized as timeline on a flat scroll or a book that can be interacted with, and in Zelretch's case he views the timelines as if they are pages in a book that can easily get erased/replaced.

No, the CCC part says TIME is able to be perceived as past, present and future, exactly like the description of Universe of Records says. BB is the one that can do stupid bullshit with it, it's never even implied to be a standard feature of the Universe of Record. I don't understand why the analogy of a book makes it so different from anything else.

Universe of Record is objectively defined as a perception of time that is inherently different from ours. We ALSO perceive time, but differently.

If only I have Archuria.......I cant 3T this node.

****... Gonna have to slow farm it, it seems

 

[John985]

****... Gonna have to slow farm it, it seems

Using this team, I was able to 3T it without RNG. I didnt think it was possible though, because the difference in damage of Archuria and Chloe is 10k. And I was told that Archer Anastasia is able to 3T it as well.

 

[LehenDuo]

Don't have MLB Black Grail, but my Chloe is 90, so may I can do it too
Thanks

 

[Newendigo]

Avalon le Fae Synopsis

Character list This list is an internal document written before Fate/Grand Order Lostbelt 6’s production. The text here will be different from the characters as officially released. Chaldean team Protagonist A traveler observing Fairy Britain and experiencing the different history of...

forums.nrvnqsr.com

Some of those were right not? The appearance of Vortigen and the creation of Excalibur.

 

[TypeOU]

Some of those were right not? The appearance of Vortigen and the creation of Excalibur.

Because it's the original version.

 

[luis3333]

The awkward part is that R>F is exactly the opposite of how most Mahou Tsukai demonstrations points to, and by proxy, Nasuverse. If anything, F > R is the true relation, as Flat Snark's creations of fantasy itself can play by their own rules because of Tradition/Folklore Protection.

no statements shows lower dimensions nasuverse are like books or fictional

 

[LehenDuo]

It's too late to materialize his soul. It won't turn back time.

That's the domain of another magic. One far distant from the third one.

I'll just do what I must.

New Strange Fake chapter TL. Maybe the fifth really does "deal with time", as Kaleidoscope couldn't be called "far distant" from the third one, at least in my view.

 

[TypeOU]

Eh, I still think that it's causality related. Both the 2nd and the 5th can turn back time but Narita probably meant the 5th though

 

[LehenDuo]

Eh, I still think that it's causality related. Both the 2nd and the 5th can turn back time but Narita probably meant the 5th though

I'm still betting it is something along the lines of manipulation of time per the entropy of the system.
Even if technically what happens is a time travel, it is not the same time travel we mean normally/the one done by Kaleidopscope. The whole thing about "mental/psychological time" and all, specially.

Another very interesting thing that is being said again in Strange Fake ch. 21

This is why I'm accelerating your thought channels and taking turns talking to you one by one.

Flat would never do something like this. He's too efficiency-minded for it. If he were in my place, he'd have laughed this whole thing off.

It has never been a Main Topic per se, but efficiency is a very big deal in some chapter of Nasuverse. (It is a topic that has been brought up in TsukiRE also, when talking about DAs)
One special case is Aoko vs Touko - Aoko is very efficient in her use and has the whole thing of being able to do something similar to running a car for 1000km with 1L, and Toko has repeatedly said to do thing in ways that make you question her sanity because of how not efficient she is. The Aoko Doll scene comes to mind. Touko is also a Grand and seems to be in line with the "magus mentality".

Flat is the opposite of that, and has been repeatedly said not to have the magus mentality,
To me, at least, this seems to point that one of the "foundational" aspects of the magus mentality has to deal with doing things in ways that are not necessarily efficient/straightforward. (Dont remember if this has ever been said explictly, but by deduction, it seems fairly clear it is "true" given Mystery and its Concealment)

 

[Artorimachi_Meteoraft]

cernunnos gang everyone

we just need two more users to be barghest and melusine and the Avalon four will be complete.

 

[GiornoGiovannaF]

huh wait where are the leaks for L7??

 

[John985]

huh wait where are the leaks for L7??

Lostbelt 7: Golden FOrest Journey: Nahui Mictlan

New Servants:

Rider SSR Kukulkan
Foreigner SSR Tezcatlopica = Oort
Berserker SSR Wukong
Saber SR: Manuela Saenz
Caster SR: Maya twins
Rider R: Hernan Corez

New Materials:

Bronze: Hevea leaf
Silver: Crystal Skull

NPC only:

Simon Bolivar
Malinche
huitzilopochtli boss form
Maize God boss form
Ort boss form
Grand Saber Artoria Avalon (no combat sprite)

 

[Artorimachi_Meteoraft]

Lostbelt 7: Golden FOrest Journey: Nahui Mictlan

New Servants:

Rider SSR Kukulkan
Foreigner SSR Tezcatlopica = Oort
Berserker SSR Wukong
Saber SR: Manuela Saenz
Caster SR: Maya twins
Rider R: Hernan Corez

New Materials:

Bronze: Hevea leaf
Silver: Crystal Skull

NPC only:

Simon Bolivar
Malinche
huitzilopochtli boss form
Maize God boss form
Ort boss form
Grand Saber Artoria Avalon (no combat sprite)

crystal skull like those in Indiana Jones?

 

[FallenMaou2234]

Using this team, I was able to 3T it without RNG. I didnt think it was possible though, because the difference in damage of Archuria and Chloe is 10k. And I was told that Archer Anastasia is able to 3T it as well.

Used Kreimhild Grailing her came in handy this time around

 

[GiornoGiovannaF]

Lostbelt 7: Golden FOrest Journey: Nahui Mictlan

New Servants:

Rider SSR Kukulkan
Foreigner SSR Tezcatlopica = Oort
Berserker SSR Wukong
Saber SR: Manuela Saenz
Caster SR: Maya twins
Rider R: Hernan Corez

New Materials:

Bronze: Hevea leaf
Silver: Crystal Skull

NPC only:

Simon Bolivar
Malinche
huitzilopochtli boss form
Maize God boss form
Ort boss form
Grand Saber Artoria Avalon (no combat sprite)

no way Hernan is just an R

 

[LehenDuo]

The character doesn't have to spell out "I view you as fiction because I have higher dimension". But to have a higher dimensional perspective such that lower dimensional objects are perceived as akin to fictional constructs or something infinitesimal. In the CCC explanation, the lower dimension is analogized as timeline on a flat scroll or a book that can be interacted with, and in Zelretch's case he views the timelines as if they are pages in a book that can easily get erased/replaced.

But the problem is that Universe of Records is "more real" than reality (Awareness) itself, in a way. A Record shouldn't change - it would be a shitty Record if it did, right? Now, to us (Awareness) the Future (Present) that is brought into manifestation by our actions (Present) can, by oscillations (hope), bring forth a new outcome (Future/Possibility) that wasn't there before.
Found something that can probably seal this topic

Adjacent Movement [Circumstances]

Sliding. A privilege permitted to Archimedes as a System Administrator of SE.RA.PH, which permits the browsing of (閲覧, etsuran, lit. "browsing / reading / inspection") Quantum Realities (量子世界, ryoushi sekai), and, within such, the authority to enact transportation (移動権限, idou kengen, lit. "Authority of Transportation").
A capacity that permits movement between Adjacent Realities (並行世界, heikou sekai).

Originally, the capacity permitted only that browsing be conducted. Even within the domain of SE.RA.PH, the projection of the consciousness (意識, ishiki) and the direct transportation of the corpus (肉体, nikutai) are categorically impossible.
Per established record, the corpus is unable to withstand (耐えられず, taerarezu) Temporal Retrogression (時間の逆行, Jikan no Gyakkou) or the bypassing of the Walls of the Worlds (世界附の壁, sekai-hu no kabe), and collapses (崩壊, houkai) if such is attempted.
It was the taint (浸食, shinshoku, "corrosion / erosion") of the Wandering Star (遊星, yuusei) that permitted Archimedes and Dark Eliza to do so; in becoming profaned by the Spiritrons (Cells) of the Wandering Star, their Existential Integrity (存在強度, sonzai kyoudo) was enhanced.

As in the events of the present work, existences such as Archimedes and Dark Eliza were submitted to record by Moon Cell, Sliding will be prospectively disallowed to them as well.
The period of time (Extella) wherein "he wasn't yet identified as an accomplice to the Wandering Star" was to Archimedes the best opportunity by which to maneuver to as a saboteur -- but even so, his plot came to be foiled.

Incidentally, in the event that Archimedes or Dark Eliza slide into a different world, if there exists a reality similar to World (Route) of destination, their "analogue" in the World of destination is displaced into the similar reality -- merging into the particular existence that is identical to them. (Complicated ...)
If there exists no reality that is similar, a merging into a stronger "self" is enacted.

The whole entry is relevant, but I made the "most important part" bold. I think it makes it very clear that the difference between Awareness and Record is merely a difference in the manner/way of perceiving Time (El-Melloi Faker Shadow Ascension Ritual also has a (unfortunately) very short scene where Faker, while becoming a Divine Spirit, has what is basically Universe of Record perception) + shows BB to be stupid and someone who doesn't care about "Rules/Limitations" (which is very understandable because she has Potnia Theron EX and can literally Reality Warp the world - and here an addendum is due: the whole thing about "Servants being on equal footing to her because Myth Formal Wear" is a misleading simplification. BB NP would still just ignore them and they would have no defense/ability to protect themselves versus it. Myht Formal Wear only allowed them to be able to affect her as they are now beings of the same spiritual standing/rank.

 

[TypeOU]

man Sigurd being low 1-C here and still getting a loss against raikou really makes it clear how hilariously wanked she is

 

[Mageman460]

man Sigurd being low 1-C here and still getting a loss against raikou really makes it clear how hilariously wanked she is

That match up was made before Sigurd got Low 1-C iirc. Also, I argued against it after the fact too. Sigurd should absolutely curb stomp Raikou.

 

[TypeOU]

That match up was made before Sigurd got Low 1-C iirc. Also, I argued against it after the fact too. Sigurd should absolutely curb stomp Raikou.

even before the upgrade reading lb2 with your eyes closed should still tell you that anyone who isn't absolutely broken standing a chance against sealed sigurd!surtr is ridiculous tho, forget unsealed sigurd!surtr, forget sigurd

 

[LehenDuo]

man Sigurd being low 1-C here and still getting a loss against raikou

What the **** am I reading?!?!?!?1
I must have lost my acess/path to the Common Sense, this is too ridiculous to believe

Unless it was something like "Sigurd will act as a dumb character in a story and repeatedly do stupid things cause the plot has been written already", how the **** does a servant deals with the Original Runes that are Crest-like Single Action Spell Formulas (Having a CORE instead of Circuits)(Personally, I think this is one of those things will never be actually used fully because it just turns any story it touches into something meaningless) that are "Age of Gods Magecraft" "still alive" ability of someone who is basically a nightmare to deal with even if only using basic swordmanship because he can literally download a "How to Defeat XXX 101"? (And he's technically supposed to be equal in skill or maybe better than Siegfried, who could deal with Karna at non-sense output)

 

[TypeOU]

What the **** am I reading?!?!?!?1
I must have lost my acess/path to the Common Sense, this is too ridiculous to believe

Unless it was something like "Sigurd will act as a dumb character in a story and repeatedly do stupid things cause the plot has been written already", how the **** does a servant deals with the Original Runes that are Crest-like Single Action Spell Formulas (Having a CORE instead of Circuits)(Personally, I think this is one of those things will never be actually used fully because it justs any story it touches into something meaningless) that are Age of Gods Magecraft "still alive" ability of someone who is basically a nightmare to deal with even if only using basic swordmanship because he can literally download a "How to Defeat XXX 101"? (And he's technically supposed to be equal in skill or maybe better than Siegfried, who could deal with Karna at non-sense output)

I actually just reread the thread because I'm masochistic like that and it mostly boiled down to ignoring every sigurd!surtr feats (even though he was explicitly super nerfed to nerfed compared to sigurd)+saying that the only pure sigurd feat (fighting surtr) is an outlier+saying that he won't rune in character despite him doing it in his only story appareance+saying that he won't use his glasses/that they don't work because he never needed to do it in story+saying that gram can't shoot beams despite it shooting one to counter surtr+not scaling his combat skills to siegfried's despite the interlude scaling (sieg in siegfried form, where he gains siegfried skills, being skillstomped and impressed by sigurd)+saying that skillstomping holmes while he was defending isn't a good feat because baritsu is only a self-defense skill

So rather than Raikou wanking (though there was still quite a lot of that like scaling her to ushi gozen feats or saying that she scales to lancelot/peak Musashi/someone with peerless knowledge -due to saying that suzuka second np does that even though that's the effect of her third np- in skills), just saying that every single feat sigurd got ever since his first appearance is huuuh not real

 

[Artorimachi_Meteoraft]

is the revision accepted now?

https://vsbattles.com/threads/fate-grand-order-lostbelt-revision.139062/

or do we still need more agreement before it can finally be implemented?

 

[Artorimachi_Meteoraft]

what else needs to be agreed on for the lost belt revision before it can be added?

 

[Ubdon]

what else needs to be agreed on for the lost belt revision before it can be added?

i mean some of this already added