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Nasuverse Discussion Board 26
- Thread starter DragonEmperor23
- Start date
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Eh, its worth it to have Archer's sass in every one of Shirou's thoughts.
As for anime, I watched Zero first though I had just finished the VN the year before so I can't really tell you from an anine only perspective. Its definitely a better adaption but does kinda drop you into it assuming you have a rough grasp of the mechanics. Considering you (1997) have been in threads involving Fate before, you can just jump right in to either tbh. Also release and chronological order is Zero first anyway (anime wise).
As for anime, I watched Zero first though I had just finished the VN the year before so I can't really tell you from an anine only perspective. Its definitely a better adaption but does kinda drop you into it assuming you have a rough grasp of the mechanics. Considering you (1997) have been in threads involving Fate before, you can just jump right in to either tbh. Also release and chronological order is Zero first anyway (anime wise).
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Even the longest novels take maybe 3 days for me to read, though I guess my reading speed is a bit faster than average.
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Lmao.
I didn't mean all three routes, I meant maybe one route. Which is like maybe 20 hours total?
And longer novels usually err on that length.
I didn't mean all three routes, I meant maybe one route. Which is like maybe 20 hours total?
And longer novels usually err on that length.
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I mean, 6 hours a day is nothing really, since I usually read random things between classes and after I'm done studying.
Only really changes when I'm working, but that's only 3 days a week.
Only really changes when I'm working, but that's only 3 days a week.
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> Muv Luv trilogy
Hmmm, you just caught my attention, sir
Hmmm, you just caught my attention, sir
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Right, the classic Muv Luv PTSD always haunt us forever
Well i obviously agree about what you said but what i mean here you know, the start of verse page creation?
Well i obviously agree about what you said but what i mean here you know, the start of verse page creation?
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Well the problem is i mostly use Mobile nowadays and its really hard to navigate, if you said use PC instead then the answer is no, my PC performance are not good anymore i rest it for a while
Hmmm, that could be a good idea, imma ask him later
Hmmm, that could be a good idea, imma ask him later
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I'm personally pretty used to Takeuchi's old art, so I can't really say anything about it. I just don't think too hard about it and focus on what each sprite conveys in expression than the quality of the art itself.ZERO7772 said:
Also, no offense, but speaking as a fan of Zero, even I can see that it's gravely overhyped. Bit of a rant here, but...
Zero fans love to throw around phrases like "its themes are mature" and "the story is complex" when most of them are the same people who completely missed the themes of each route in Fate/Stay Night and the complexities of its main character that actually grows compared to Kerry being a mostly static character with more backstory than personal development.
"Every Master has great motivations" is another one I hear a lot, but it's really untrue. Kariya's a discount Sakura whose only redeeming quality is tied directly to and horribly stained by his most damning one: He wants to rescue Sakura, but he also wants to steal Tokiomi's family from him by doing so because of his pent-up jealousy. Tokiomi's a Rin with zero backbone and way too much ego. His motivation to win is as shallow as could be, and his sheer subservience isn't even funny, it's just boring. If he were more like his daughter, and actually had the balls to back-talk Gilgamesh, he'd have been more enjoyable at least, and if Gil had been written more like his recent incarnations, he would've been quite amused by the guts to do so and actually start liking his Master.
Kayneth's own motivations are ironically the most understandable, if only for how straight-forward it is. He wants glory, and that's fine. Sure, he's an asshole, but so are most of the people in the War; if in different, less-obvious ways. Plus, he's actually trying to make things work with with his finacee in an engagement that neither of them really want, instead of complaining about it and nothing else like the aforementioned fiancee. Waver's motivations were so pathetic that even his own Servant scolded him for it. But that's a plot-point so it's forgiven.
This isn't even including how Urobuchi butchered Saber's character to glorify Rider's more ridiculous ideals. How the hell does the guy deserve to be called a great king when his own shoddily-built kingdom fell literally within a month of his death.
Needless to say, I've been very disillusioned with regards to Zero's hype.
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It definitely is darker than Unlimited Blade Works. This is from anime perspective, because most fans have only watched anime and judge those two works from that. The main problem with Stay Night is that most characters are highschool students, and that involves the main characters. That's something people are so fed up right now and Zero has adults as masters, which was seen as a good thing. Adult characters are also more likely to have reasonable actions. When I watched Zero I constantly had a feeling that characters understand that they are in a war and that they have some sort of tactics that they are using to win. When I watched UBW all I could see is Shirou charging like an idiot all the time. Deployment of reasonable tactics was rare and pretty much only Rin was aware that they are in a war. For example, Tokiomi's and Kirei's strategy of using the fact that Assassin has multiple bodies led to them creating a scene where it seems as though Assassin died so that other Masters would completely forget about him. Which is great, they've used a resource which they had in order to gain an advantage.
I wouldn't say Shirou is a complex character. Shirou is an idealistic hero, while Kiritsugu is a realistic hero, which is why he seems more relatable. While Shirou wants to be a hero who saves everyone, Kiritsugu understands that not everyone can be saved and that sacrifices have to be made. Kiritsugu didn't need character development because he was already a well developed character and there weren't any events that could impact until the end when he sees that everything he did and sacrificed was for nothing. Shinji had more "growth" (pun intended) than Shirou in UBW. Tbh I can't really say that any character from UBW had some sort of meaningful character growth except Archer. I think one episode of Zero featuring Rin had more character development for her than 24 episodes of UBW.
As far as character motivation for the war, Zero showed it way better, even what the motivation of side characters were. UBW's character had either childish motivation or no motivation at all. Kariya's driving motivation is the will to protect Sakura from Zouken, but his fuel is also hatred for Tokiomi due to him being a better mage and having that which Kariya desires, which is also tied to the fact that he is in love with Aoi. A very relatable idea, which is why you can see many people who reacted to Zero on youtube wished for Kariya to win for a good portion of the anime. Tokiomi is a man whose principles are related to traditional values of his family and mages. I don't see how him having Rin's attitude would benefit his character. Considering the fact that Hakuno can get killed by Gilgamesh for saying something wrong, there is no way in hell Rin would be able to be his Master.
You know why Rider was a great king? Because from a rather small kingdom of Macedon he created one of the greatest empires in history. Also, it's not really his fault that his empire was divided. He died too young (possibly with the help of others). If he had lived another 10-15 years he could've consolidated his power and take measures to lower the negative impact of his death. No matter how great a monarch is, once he is dead, problems begin.
I wouldn't say Shirou is a complex character. Shirou is an idealistic hero, while Kiritsugu is a realistic hero, which is why he seems more relatable. While Shirou wants to be a hero who saves everyone, Kiritsugu understands that not everyone can be saved and that sacrifices have to be made. Kiritsugu didn't need character development because he was already a well developed character and there weren't any events that could impact until the end when he sees that everything he did and sacrificed was for nothing. Shinji had more "growth" (pun intended) than Shirou in UBW. Tbh I can't really say that any character from UBW had some sort of meaningful character growth except Archer. I think one episode of Zero featuring Rin had more character development for her than 24 episodes of UBW.
As far as character motivation for the war, Zero showed it way better, even what the motivation of side characters were. UBW's character had either childish motivation or no motivation at all. Kariya's driving motivation is the will to protect Sakura from Zouken, but his fuel is also hatred for Tokiomi due to him being a better mage and having that which Kariya desires, which is also tied to the fact that he is in love with Aoi. A very relatable idea, which is why you can see many people who reacted to Zero on youtube wished for Kariya to win for a good portion of the anime. Tokiomi is a man whose principles are related to traditional values of his family and mages. I don't see how him having Rin's attitude would benefit his character. Considering the fact that Hakuno can get killed by Gilgamesh for saying something wrong, there is no way in hell Rin would be able to be his Master.
You know why Rider was a great king? Because from a rather small kingdom of Macedon he created one of the greatest empires in history. Also, it's not really his fault that his empire was divided. He died too young (possibly with the help of others). If he had lived another 10-15 years he could've consolidated his power and take measures to lower the negative impact of his death. No matter how great a monarch is, once he is dead, problems begin.
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Hassan was a better ruler than her and he lead a group of religious fanatics.
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He was a de facto ruler and they had a form of a state, the Nizari Ismaili state.
Ea has 2-A key on its page when used by full power Gilgamesh: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Ea
Ea has 2-A key on its page when used by full power Gilgamesh: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Ea
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I had a whole thing written out about how ThisIsMySwagPack misunderstood the entire story and themes of Fate/Stay Night, as well as an attempt to summarize them, but it was somehow swallowed up after I posted it here and now I just don't give a shit.
Anyway, on the topic of kingship. Yes, Iskandar was a shitty King. The shittiest in Fate so far.
Seriously, Arturia's kingdom was being targeted by the World itself because it was becoming too perfect. The only reason Camelot fell was because fate decided to deliberately work against her, as stated by Merlin. If it weren't for Morgan (a member of the Fae, an extension of the World), Mordred wouldn't have been rejected, the rebellion wouldn't have happened, and Camelot wouldn't have fallen. Even after Camelot fell, the crown was still passed on to Constantine, who ruled Britain after Arturia died, so it isn't as if the country actually fell apart with her death, even if Camelot was destroyed. As for Arturia's legacy, people still loved her and called her the perfect king, and Camelot a heaven on earth. The moniker of Once and Future King wouldn't have even become a thing if they didn't, so Iskandar accusing her of making it so that her people didn't believe in her rule was just flat-out wrong.
Compared to that immortalized legacy, Iskandar conquered territory after territory, leaving no working governing systems behind after having slain a notable number of each territory's leaders, and the moment he died, the whole thing collapsed. It wasn't even over time. The whole kingdom collapsed into separate territories under differing rulers not one month after Iskandar's death. Nobody remembers Iskandar for his kingship, nor his kingdom. He's remembered as a brilliant military strategist and tactician, and his feat of conquering most of the known world. His actual kingdom was pathetic.
Iskandar is literally the worst king in Fate.
Anyway, on the topic of kingship. Yes, Iskandar was a shitty King. The shittiest in Fate so far.
Seriously, Arturia's kingdom was being targeted by the World itself because it was becoming too perfect. The only reason Camelot fell was because fate decided to deliberately work against her, as stated by Merlin. If it weren't for Morgan (a member of the Fae, an extension of the World), Mordred wouldn't have been rejected, the rebellion wouldn't have happened, and Camelot wouldn't have fallen. Even after Camelot fell, the crown was still passed on to Constantine, who ruled Britain after Arturia died, so it isn't as if the country actually fell apart with her death, even if Camelot was destroyed. As for Arturia's legacy, people still loved her and called her the perfect king, and Camelot a heaven on earth. The moniker of Once and Future King wouldn't have even become a thing if they didn't, so Iskandar accusing her of making it so that her people didn't believe in her rule was just flat-out wrong.
Compared to that immortalized legacy, Iskandar conquered territory after territory, leaving no working governing systems behind after having slain a notable number of each territory's leaders, and the moment he died, the whole thing collapsed. It wasn't even over time. The whole kingdom collapsed into separate territories under differing rulers not one month after Iskandar's death. Nobody remembers Iskandar for his kingship, nor his kingdom. He's remembered as a brilliant military strategist and tactician, and his feat of conquering most of the known world. His actual kingdom was pathetic.
Iskandar is literally the worst king in Fate.
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Can't wait for Constantine servant
Well tbh Britain has a really great Rulers from what i know
Well tbh Britain has a really great Rulers from what i know
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And you misunderstood the whole idea why people view Zero as mature and why Iskandar was a great ruler. You have to see the context in order to understand.
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... Should we make a F/Z VS F/sn Thread?
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Everything you say just points further and further into the direction of "I've only watched the anime and therefore know what I'm talking about".
Iskandar inspired his army, but what about his people? He sure never talks about them. His "eternal friends" are all members of his army. Not his governors and certainly not the citizens of his kingdom. He conquers, claims the throne of the territory, then leaves with his army to conquer someplace else.
He's a general, a tactician, and an inspiration to his troops, that's true, but I refuse to call him a good king, because he isn't one. His rulership was idiotic, and the results of his death was proof of that. No other King in Fate had their kingdom so utterly demolished by their death. Britain was succeeded by Constantine. Uruk was succeeded by Ur-Nungal. Egypt was fine after Ozy, obviously, and Rome went on for a long while yet. Macedonia? What's that?
Zero's "maturity" is surface-level. Did Zero go into themes of survivor's guilt? Parental abandonment? The nature of evil? No.
Zero had a war to its name, and that's it. Everything it talked about philosophically: heroism, idealism, kingship and duty, F/SN already talked about.
The flaw in Saber's ideals? The Fate route went far deeper and more realistically about exploring it and having her learn the error of her wish, compared to an objectively inferior ruler ******** on her ideals as King, talking about "leaving an example for people to follow", when no one followed his own after he died.
The cruel nature of heroism? Shirou explored its harsh realities and need for sacrifices far more than Kiritsugu did, and on a far more personal level. He experienced, learned and grew from it. Compared to that, Kiritsugu was the same person from beginning to end, except by the end he's given up because he couldn't handle the harsh realities and refused to accept that he was wrong until it was too late.
And you wanna talk about dark? Zero had a few betrayals, a pair of serial killers, a threat of torture, and cold-blooded murder. Try having Shirou's head severed and his still-connected nervous system attached to a teddy bear for Illyasviel to torture for as long as his soul hasn't decayed. What about the children kidnapped from an orphanage by Kirei and Gilgamesh and repurposed as magical batteries for nearly a decade until they were nothing but eternally-pained and fully-conscious skeletal meatbags? How about when Bloodfort Andromeda was used on the school and every non-magical person inside began spontaneously melting.
Seriously, don't judge F/SN by its anime adaptations. As much as they get the point across, they do not do a good job of showing the severity of everything going on.
Iskandar inspired his army, but what about his people? He sure never talks about them. His "eternal friends" are all members of his army. Not his governors and certainly not the citizens of his kingdom. He conquers, claims the throne of the territory, then leaves with his army to conquer someplace else.
He's a general, a tactician, and an inspiration to his troops, that's true, but I refuse to call him a good king, because he isn't one. His rulership was idiotic, and the results of his death was proof of that. No other King in Fate had their kingdom so utterly demolished by their death. Britain was succeeded by Constantine. Uruk was succeeded by Ur-Nungal. Egypt was fine after Ozy, obviously, and Rome went on for a long while yet. Macedonia? What's that?
Zero's "maturity" is surface-level. Did Zero go into themes of survivor's guilt? Parental abandonment? The nature of evil? No.
Zero had a war to its name, and that's it. Everything it talked about philosophically: heroism, idealism, kingship and duty, F/SN already talked about.
The flaw in Saber's ideals? The Fate route went far deeper and more realistically about exploring it and having her learn the error of her wish, compared to an objectively inferior ruler ******** on her ideals as King, talking about "leaving an example for people to follow", when no one followed his own after he died.
The cruel nature of heroism? Shirou explored its harsh realities and need for sacrifices far more than Kiritsugu did, and on a far more personal level. He experienced, learned and grew from it. Compared to that, Kiritsugu was the same person from beginning to end, except by the end he's given up because he couldn't handle the harsh realities and refused to accept that he was wrong until it was too late.
And you wanna talk about dark? Zero had a few betrayals, a pair of serial killers, a threat of torture, and cold-blooded murder. Try having Shirou's head severed and his still-connected nervous system attached to a teddy bear for Illyasviel to torture for as long as his soul hasn't decayed. What about the children kidnapped from an orphanage by Kirei and Gilgamesh and repurposed as magical batteries for nearly a decade until they were nothing but eternally-pained and fully-conscious skeletal meatbags? How about when Bloodfort Andromeda was used on the school and every non-magical person inside began spontaneously melting.
Seriously, don't judge F/SN by its anime adaptations. As much as they get the point across, they do not do a good job of showing the severity of everything going on.
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I seriously do not understand why everyone seems to think Arturia was a bad ruler. Her rule was perfect. She built the kingdom from scratch, protected the people, earned their adoration, her knights and soldiers were unfailingly loyal, and she fought off violent invaders. Her only cruel acts came from sacrificing villages in order to fuel necessary war efforts against the Saxons, but even then she had the villagers escorted to Camelot for their safety and provided them new homes.
Her sole mistake was rejecting Mordred, but even that was excusable because she had a right to be suspicious of Morgan's schemes. And even though some knights left because they felt she wasn't capable of understand humans, those who did were still loyal enough to willingly listen to the Lion King when she summoned them during the Camelot Singularity.
Her sole mistake was rejecting Mordred, but even that was excusable because she had a right to be suspicious of Morgan's schemes. And even though some knights left because they felt she wasn't capable of understand humans, those who did were still loyal enough to willingly listen to the Lion King when she summoned them during the Camelot Singularity.
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Tfw my second sentence says "anime perspective because most fans only watched anime".
Yes, you just described what it means to be a conqueror. Do you really think kings or emperors were concerned with the lives of normal citizens? Maybe when rebellions were brewing. Then they thought "oh, maybe taxes are too high, maybe we should let them have something to eat". Especially in the age when he ruled, the most important trait for a ruler was that he is a great warrior and strategist. Everything else was secondary. What other ruler in Fate had the same circumstances as Iskandar?
Did Zero go into themes of survivor's guilt? Parental abandonment? The nature of evil? Yes, although "parental abandonment" is a bit unfair. In my eyes it's like saying Doctor Who is a better show than Peaky Blinders because it has time travel. It's not a focus point of Zero, but you still can see relations between parents and childrend and results ot those relations.
Yes, both works talk about the same thing. Don't see how that part is relevant.
Advice, putting "objectively" next to something doesn't make it objective. Again, you are not looking at the context of what it meant to be a monarch and I don't see why you think his men didn't follow his ideals.
Bullshit. Go and tell someone who has seen Zero and UBW anime that Shirou sacrificed more.
People died, extremely dark. 12 year old me would be impressed, but that was long time ago.
Yes, you just described what it means to be a conqueror. Do you really think kings or emperors were concerned with the lives of normal citizens? Maybe when rebellions were brewing. Then they thought "oh, maybe taxes are too high, maybe we should let them have something to eat". Especially in the age when he ruled, the most important trait for a ruler was that he is a great warrior and strategist. Everything else was secondary. What other ruler in Fate had the same circumstances as Iskandar?
Did Zero go into themes of survivor's guilt? Parental abandonment? The nature of evil? Yes, although "parental abandonment" is a bit unfair. In my eyes it's like saying Doctor Who is a better show than Peaky Blinders because it has time travel. It's not a focus point of Zero, but you still can see relations between parents and childrend and results ot those relations.
Yes, both works talk about the same thing. Don't see how that part is relevant.
Advice, putting "objectively" next to something doesn't make it objective. Again, you are not looking at the context of what it meant to be a monarch and I don't see why you think his men didn't follow his ideals.
Bullshit. Go and tell someone who has seen Zero and UBW anime that Shirou sacrificed more.
People died, extremely dark. 12 year old me would be impressed, but that was long time ago.
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Well then that's fine. I also said that my perspective is from that of someone who read the source materials. But that doesn't change the fact that your opinions are objectively flawed regarding the works themselves, because you're referring to the flawed adaptations (not Zero, Zero's anime was better than its LN).
We are clearly using different definitions of the word "King", so I'll leave this alone since you're technically right if we go by your definition. That still doesn't change the fact that going by modern definitions of "kingship" or even just "rulership", Iskandar was a terrible one.
Survivor's guilt is a definite no. The only case close to that was Kerry, but his issues were entirely different, and if he had it after the Fire, then it was obviously never explored. The nature of evil? Kirei's whole story in Zero was a step-by-step explanation of how he got to be the way he was in Stay Night. For someone who has seen Stay Night, it's terribly boring philosphically, because his actual ideology was expanded upon much more interestingly in Heaven's Feel than in Zero.
You have to understand that Zero was written as a prequel to Stay Night. It's a-given that you already know what happens in F/SN before going into it. That's why, when all it does is parrot Stay Night's thematic explorations, it's a flaw on the part of Zero's writing for having nothing going for it on its own and not expanding on the themes its copying from Stay Night. It's not a feat of its own, and thus, any praise attributed to its exploration of its themes is praise that's rightfully directed at Stay Night. That's why it's relevant.
It is objective. Using the modern standards for rulership, a King's quality is measured by their capacity to protect, govern, sustain and improve their kingdom. Iskandar failed at least two out of the four, arguably three, because his only "improvements" came from adding even more territories to his kingdom, but that just makes him fail even harder at everything else, because that's all he's doing.
It's a matter of exploring the concept of those sacrifices, not actually experiencing them. Shirou came to a better understanding of the flaws of his ideals far more than Kiritsugu's stubborn ass ever did. Archer was basically Kiritsugu, but with having sacrificed and suffered far more, with the added bonus of being Emiya Shirou. Archer was living proof of the flaws in Shirou's ideals, and their knowledge and memories bled over during their fight, so Shirou experienced everything Archer did. Shirou experienced the same betrayal of his ideals and the despair that came at the end, that Kiritsugu did, through Archer. Shirou went far deeper into understanding Kiritsugu's ideals than Kiritsugu himself ever did, he realized his own personal desires on top of that, reached an epiphany with his own guilt, before finally reaching his own resolutions regarding heroism.
Fate/Zero is a tragedy first and foremost. The author intended for every member of its audience to know the ending before it even bega. If they didn't, then what they take away from their entire experience is wrong, because they don't have the perspective the author intended. Kiritsugu's entire story is effectively summarized as "heroism is tragic" and nothing else, because he gave up without ever coming to a resolution.
Shirou's own story goes beyond that and actually provides an answer to his own reflections and experiences. That alone already makes it better than Kiritsugu's story, which is nothing but a downer.
We are clearly using different definitions of the word "King", so I'll leave this alone since you're technically right if we go by your definition. That still doesn't change the fact that going by modern definitions of "kingship" or even just "rulership", Iskandar was a terrible one.
Survivor's guilt is a definite no. The only case close to that was Kerry, but his issues were entirely different, and if he had it after the Fire, then it was obviously never explored. The nature of evil? Kirei's whole story in Zero was a step-by-step explanation of how he got to be the way he was in Stay Night. For someone who has seen Stay Night, it's terribly boring philosphically, because his actual ideology was expanded upon much more interestingly in Heaven's Feel than in Zero.
You have to understand that Zero was written as a prequel to Stay Night. It's a-given that you already know what happens in F/SN before going into it. That's why, when all it does is parrot Stay Night's thematic explorations, it's a flaw on the part of Zero's writing for having nothing going for it on its own and not expanding on the themes its copying from Stay Night. It's not a feat of its own, and thus, any praise attributed to its exploration of its themes is praise that's rightfully directed at Stay Night. That's why it's relevant.
It is objective. Using the modern standards for rulership, a King's quality is measured by their capacity to protect, govern, sustain and improve their kingdom. Iskandar failed at least two out of the four, arguably three, because his only "improvements" came from adding even more territories to his kingdom, but that just makes him fail even harder at everything else, because that's all he's doing.
It's a matter of exploring the concept of those sacrifices, not actually experiencing them. Shirou came to a better understanding of the flaws of his ideals far more than Kiritsugu's stubborn ass ever did. Archer was basically Kiritsugu, but with having sacrificed and suffered far more, with the added bonus of being Emiya Shirou. Archer was living proof of the flaws in Shirou's ideals, and their knowledge and memories bled over during their fight, so Shirou experienced everything Archer did. Shirou experienced the same betrayal of his ideals and the despair that came at the end, that Kiritsugu did, through Archer. Shirou went far deeper into understanding Kiritsugu's ideals than Kiritsugu himself ever did, he realized his own personal desires on top of that, reached an epiphany with his own guilt, before finally reaching his own resolutions regarding heroism.
Fate/Zero is a tragedy first and foremost. The author intended for every member of its audience to know the ending before it even bega. If they didn't, then what they take away from their entire experience is wrong, because they don't have the perspective the author intended. Kiritsugu's entire story is effectively summarized as "heroism is tragic" and nothing else, because he gave up without ever coming to a resolution.
Shirou's own story goes beyond that and actually provides an answer to his own reflections and experiences. That alone already makes it better than Kiritsugu's story, which is nothing but a downer.
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@Sol
I mean the reason why Camelot fell was because Lancelot betrayal right? Then again you can't blame to Lancelot
Btw fun fact, after Gareth was released i saw some of peoples starting to hate Lancelot even further because what he did to Gareth which is sad
I mean the reason why Camelot fell was because Lancelot betrayal right? Then again you can't blame to Lancelot
Btw fun fact, after Gareth was released i saw some of peoples starting to hate Lancelot even further because what he did to Gareth which is sad
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Camelot was fine after Lancelot's betrayal. It made things worse, sure, but it was Mordred's rebellion that caused the kingdom to fall, in the end. Either way, it was no fault of Arturia's that Lancelot and Guinevere ran off. All three were great friends, but Lance and Gwen couldn't help falling in love.
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I don't entirely agree with putting Kiritsugu down just because he didn't develop, because developing a character and revealing the layers of a character are both different things and not necessarily better in one or the other. I do, however, subscribe to the idea that Shirou had a better development over all than Kiritsugu had his revealed, but I don't think it is a big difference.
But yes, I am on the side that is a little fed up with people glorifying Zero. I may be wrong as well, but I think I even remember that after Rider puts Saber down in the LN, Saber's whole response to it is far more calm and collected, compared to the anime.
But yes, I am on the side that is a little fed up with people glorifying Zero. I may be wrong as well, but I think I even remember that after Rider puts Saber down in the LN, Saber's whole response to it is far more calm and collected, compared to the anime.
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Saying Kiritsugu character didn't get any develop us ridiculous, he did develop near the end but his character arc and story is just different than Shiru.
Also, Kerry's finale was carved in the stone since FSN so Zero author didn't really have that much freedom with him toward the end.
Also, Kerry's finale was carved in the stone since FSN so Zero author didn't really have that much freedom with him toward the end.
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I never intended to put Kiritsugu down. His story is inherently a tragedy, and that was how things played out. From the beginning I knew how his story would end, so seeing his character undergo that fall is the main appeal.
But while he is a respectable character in his own right, I don't believe for a second that he's as fleshed-out as Shirou, which is what ThisIsMySwagPack seems to believe.
But while he is a respectable character in his own right, I don't believe for a second that he's as fleshed-out as Shirou, which is what ThisIsMySwagPack seems to believe.
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@Sol
Truly, love can be so dangerous sometime
Btw did you agree about the amount of further hate for Lancelot due of Gareth released are sad? Also you missing some of big rulers on your other comment like post Charlie/Karl reign in French and post QSH reign in China, does their kingdom goes well after their death?
Truly, love can be so dangerous sometime
Btw did you agree about the amount of further hate for Lancelot due of Gareth released are sad? Also you missing some of big rulers on your other comment like post Charlie/Karl reign in French and post QSH reign in China, does their kingdom goes well after their death?
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Well Shirou had 3 routes to tell from his perspective to tell while Kerry had to share the spotlight with many characters so of course Shirou had more time to be flashed out.
Kerry is more relatable to many people because his ideals are grounded in reality. Shirou is a madman with HUGE survivor guilt and act out of logic. Many logical choices in FSN actually give you bad ending for some reason while most ridiculous are the good ones for some reason.
Kerry is more relatable to many people because his ideals are grounded in reality. Shirou is a madman with HUGE survivor guilt and act out of logic. Many logical choices in FSN actually give you bad ending for some reason while most ridiculous are the good ones for some reason.
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Considering Sol is mainly comparing the journey of Shirou as contrasted with Kiritsugu's only in UBW and leaving out Fate and Heaven's Feels, I doubt he's saying Shirou is more fleshed out by compiling all 3 routed.
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