Void Shiki vs Lancer (Fate/Stay Night.)

[Cautiousexedius]

I don’t get your points here


Non servant characters just get assigned classes based on what fits them the most in FGO, pretty sure they’re called “Saint Graph Designations”
Even characters that don’t possess any saint graph at all like luminary Arcueid, and Arcueid herself have “classes” (I’m not talking about the mooncancer from FGO)

Here's what I'm trying to explain:
When Nasu answers questions about Shiki in an interview, what we clearly see in the scan you sent is that we can't understand which Shiki Nasu is talking about. Because as a fanbase and as we've seen in the novels, there are cases where we identify the Void Shiki as the root or []. And if we ignore the possibility that Nasu is a senile person who forgets his own writings, we have 2 situations regarding the refutations (half of which are false) reflected in the profile:

Case 1 is that the Shiki Nasu is referring to is Void, and we can't address this case because Nasu clearly states in the interview that he wants to maintain consistency between the two series. And if the Shiki was the Void, then the two series would contradict each other because the Void exists in a basically indescribable and nameless form, and Nasu refers to it as having a name. And the other contradiction is that the Shiki in that singularity being Void can be recorded on the heroic throne where the true selves of the heroic souls reside, and this is impossible because to record the Void Shiki on the throne would inherently disrupt the very structure of the throne itself, it would be akin to placing the Root on the Throne, and this is also impossible because of their metaphysical position and ontological differences.

Case 2 is that the Shiki in question is Saber, not Void, which is the most appropriate case that would not create contradictions between the series, as Nasu wanted. The Throne of Heroes keeps a physically better version of it, because if the Void is active, the Throne itself will be broken, as I mentioned in the first case, and in order not to break it, the Calyvorence style only activates Omniscience. And in Saber's profile it says that the parameters are invalid if [] is active, which would create a contradiction in case it's Void Shiki. So the Shiki mentioned in the interview must be referring to Saber and Assassin because Nasu stated that he was trying to be consistent. The Saber Shiki is just a record of the Void Shiki on the Throne of Heroes. I mentioned one of the examples of the Saint Graph for ORT in my articles above. It is completely wrong to say that an entity that is the root itself, even through the Saint Graph, can also be FGO, as if equating it to ORT or Arcueid.

 

[Wankbreaker]

Here's what I'm trying to explain:
When Nasu answers questions about Shiki in an interview, what we clearly see in the scan you sent is that we can't understand which Shiki Nasu is talking about. Because as a fanbase and as we've seen in the novels, there are cases where we identify the Void Shiki as the root or []. And if we ignore the possibility that Nasu is a senile person who forgets his own writings, we have 2 situations regarding the refutations (half of which are false) reflected in the profile:

It is the exact same Shiki from KNK, as stated in the interview. It doesn’t make sense for it to be a “fake” shiki because we know that the “dreaming” transfers your soul to another world.

Even if she was the root (she isn’t), Angra Mainyu is directly said to be “ “, yet he’s the weakest out of all the servants. This means nothing.

Case 1 is that the Shiki Nasu is referring to is Void, and we can't address this case because Nasu clearly states in the interview that he wants to maintain consistency between the two series. And if the Shiki was the Void, then the two series would contradict each other because the Void exists in a basically indescribable and nameless form, and Nasu refers to it as having a name. And the other contradiction is that the Shiki in that singularity being Void can be recorded on the heroic throne where the true selves of the heroic souls reside, and this is impossible because to record the Void Shiki on the throne would inherently disrupt the very structure of the throne itself, it would be akin to placing the Root on the Throne, and this is also impossible because of their metaphysical position and ontological differences.

“Indescribable and nameless” Sure.


—It's been a while, Kokutou.

Ryougi Shiki was her name. But the tone she now took was unfamiliar. Who stood here was neither the Shiki he knew, nor the other he had known, but another still, altogether unknowable.

—It is you, then.

A pause.

—Somehow I thought it would be. Is Shiki - asleep, then?

—She is. Right now it's just me and you.

She smiled. Flawless, incarnate, feminine smile. He questioned her.


She later describes herself as nothing more than the body of Ryougi Shiki. The Counterforce has successfully crushed people with her origin before, her families ritual just protected/hid her from it.


The entire grail war exists because heroic spirits going back to the throne makes a pathway into the root.

Case 2 is that the Shiki in question is Saber, not Void, which is the most appropriate case that would not create contradictions between the series, as Nasu wanted. The Throne of Heroes keeps a physically better version of it, because if the Void is active, the Throne itself will be broken, as I mentioned in the first case, and in order not to break it, the Calyvorence style only activates Omniscience. And in Saber's profile it says that the parameters are invalid if [] is active, which would create a contradiction in case it's Void Shiki. So the Shiki mentioned in the interview must be referring to Saber and Assassin because Nasu stated that he was trying to be consistent. The Saber Shiki is just a record of the Void Shiki on the Throne of Heroes. I mentioned one of the examples of the Saint Graph for ORT in my articles above. It is completely wrong to say that an entity that is the root itself, even through the Saint Graph, can also be FGO, as if equating it to ORT or Arcueid.

This is just a huge nothing burger. You know what else has the connection to the root skill that is supposedly beyond all parameters? The Greater Grail/Dark Iri.
And this was while the greater grail was incomplete with only 4-5 out of the 7 servants absorbed.

She’s beaten with the help of Chaldea.

 

[Cautiousexedius]

It is the exact same Shiki from KNK, as stated in the interview. It doesn’t make sense for it to be a “fake” shiki because we know that the “dreaming” transfers your soul to another world.

Even if she was the root (she isn’t), Angra Mainyu is directly said to be “ “, yet he’s the weakest out of all the servants. This means nothing.

“Indescribable and nameless” Sure.


—It's been a while, Kokutou.

Ryougi Shiki was her name. But the tone she now took was unfamiliar. Who stood here was neither the Shiki he knew, nor the other he had known, but another still, altogether unknowable.

—It is you, then.

A pause.

—Somehow I thought it would be. Is Shiki - asleep, then?

—She is. Right now it's just me and you.

She smiled. Flawless, incarnate, feminine smile. He questioned her.


She later describes herself as nothing more than the body of Ryougi Shiki. The Counterforce has successfully crushed people with her origin before, her families ritual just protected/hid her from it.


The entire grail war exists because heroic spirits going back to the throne makes a pathway into the root.

This is just a huge nothing burger. You know what else has the connection to the root skill that is supposedly beyond all parameters? The Greater Grail/Dark Iri.
And this was while the greater grail was incomplete with only 4-5 out of the 7 servants absorbed.

She’s beaten with the help of Chaldea.

It is the exact same Shiki from KNK, as stated in the interview. It doesn’t make sense for it to be a “fake” shiki because we know that the “dreaming” transfers your soul to another world.

Even if she was the root (she isn’t), Angra Mainyu is directly said to be “ “, yet he’s the weakest out of all the servants. This means nothing.

“Indescribable and nameless” Sure.


—It's been a while, Kokutou.

Ryougi Shiki was her name. But the tone she now took was unfamiliar. Who stood here was neither the Shiki he knew, nor the other he had known, but another still, altogether unknowable.

—It is you, then.

A pause.

—Somehow I thought it would be. Is Shiki - asleep, then?

—She is. Right now it's just me and you.

She smiled. Flawless, incarnate, feminine smile. He questioned her.


She later describes herself as nothing more than the body of Ryougi Shiki. The Counterforce has successfully crushed people with her origin before, her families ritual just protected/hid her from it.


The entire grail war exists because heroic spirits going back to the throne makes a pathway into the root.

This is just a huge nothing burger. You know what else has the connection to the root skill that is supposedly beyond all parameters? The Greater Grail/Dark Iri.
And this was while the greater grail was incomplete with only 4-5 out of the 7 servants absorbed.

She’s beaten with the help of Chaldea.

I never said that Shiki is a "fake", and the fact that dreaming sends your soul to another world temporarily does not prove that Shiki is Void, as Nasu mentioned in the interview, or in the arguments you mentioned as an anti feat, the process of transferring the soul to another world is something that can happen between Saber and Assassin, which is what we understand from the interview.

What you're talking about in the sequel is told from Kokuto's point of view. Even though it was Void Shiki that Kokuto saw, since Void Shiki used Ryougi's body, it is normal for him to identify him as "Ryougi Shiki". Don't think that you can draw a rebuttal from this.

The power of the Holy Grail to fulfill every wish stems indirectly from the Root. When we speak of the Root, the source of all revelation and existence, we cannot speak of "granting every wish" to the same extent as we speak of the Holy Grail's ability to do so. The Holy Grail is not guaranteed to ever last in any timeline. Even Saber destroyed it with his NP. The case of the Root is completely different.

 

[Wankbreaker]

I never said that Shiki is a "fake", and the fact that dreaming sends your soul to another world temporarily does not prove that Shiki is Void, as Nasu mentioned in the interview, or in the arguments you mentioned as an anti feat, the process of transferring the soul to another world is something that can happen between Saber and Assassin, which is what we understand from the interview.

Void has the independent manifestation skill, the ability to summon themselves across parallel worlds, the "dreaming" is described the same way.

connect the dots

What you're talking about in the sequel is told from Kokuto's point of view. Even though it was Void Shiki that Kokuto saw, since Void Shiki used Ryougi's body, it is normal for him to identify him as "Ryougi Shiki". Don't think that you can draw a rebuttal from this.

This is the narration, not Kokuto, or his inner thoughts..... and you're ignoring the fact that Void Shiki describes herself as nothing more than the body and its personality.

The power of the Holy Grail to fulfill every wish stems indirectly from the Root. When we speak of the Root, the source of all revelation and existence, we cannot speak of "granting every wish" to the same extent as we speak of the Holy Grail's ability to do so. The Holy Grail is not guaranteed to ever last in any timeline. Even Saber destroyed it with his NP. The case of the Root is completely different.

This is one of the sentences of the "connection to the root" skill.

In other words, the same qualities of the omnipotent wish granter itself.

The only other possessor of this skill is the literal avatar of the greater grail.

 

[Cautiousexedius]

Void has the independent manifestation skill, the ability to summon themselves across parallel worlds, the "dreaming" is described the same way.

connect the dots

This is the narration, not Kokuto, or his inner thoughts..... and you're ignoring the fact that Void Shiki describes herself as nothing more than the body and its personality.

This is one of the sentences of the "connection to the root" skill.

The only other possessor of this skill is the literal avatar of the greater grail.

Saber Shiki can also do this because of its ability to use the root, it is not unique to Void.

Some of the excerpts from the novel and the movie are told from Kokuto's point of view, and it's clear what I mean here. And the fact that Void Shiki defines herself as consisting of her body and her personality is not relevant to what I'm saying, because Kokutou could have defined her as Shiki by her appearance as well. We know that Void Shiki is using Shiki's body in that part. And any definition that Void Shiki would have of himself would not have to agree with it because he is already basically undefined, he is the root, he doesn't have to. The Shiki's body may have a personality, but it is "not limited to that". It can manifest and refer to itself in any form it wants, don't underestimate its omnipotence. There is no one person who has the ability to connect to the root, we have seen more than one character in the series using the root. I assume you know all this, it's a baseless argument.

 

[Wankbreaker]

Saber Shiki can also do this because of its ability to use the root, it is not unique to Void.

…..saber shiki is void.

Some of the excerpts from the novel and the movie are told from Kokuto's point of view, and it's clear what I mean here. And the fact that Void Shiki defines herself as consisting of her body and her personality is not relevant to what I'm saying, because Kokutou could have defined her as Shiki by her appearance as well. We know that Void Shiki is using Shiki's body in that part. And any definition that Void Shiki would have of himself would not have to agree with it because he is already basically undefined, he is the root, he doesn't have to. The Shiki's body may have a personality, but it is "not limited to that". It can manifest and refer to itself in any form it wants, don't underestimate its omnipotence.

Yea…. no. That’s not how this works at all.

“She’s the same person as Shiki Ryougi, the girl who wears a jacket over her kimono. However, their personalities are different.“

“If Shiki Ryougi is the girl known as 「Shiki」, then this person is the woman known as「Shiki Ryougi」

The personality of the body itself, embodying 「 」 that represents the beginning.”

She slumbers within Shiki from her birth to her death.

There is no one person who has the ability to connect to the root, we have seen more than one character in the series using the root. I assume you know all this, it's a baseless argument.

Cool, so you agree void shiki isn’t special in that regard. Great that you came along

 

[Cautiousexedius]

…..saber shiki is void.

Yea…. no. That’s not how this works at all.

“She’s the same person as Shiki Ryougi, the girl who wears a jacket over her kimono. However, their personalities are different.“

“If Shiki Ryougi is the girl known as 「Shiki」, then this person is the woman known as「Shiki Ryougi」

The personality of the body itself, embodying 「 」 that represents the beginning.”

She slumbers within Shiki from her birth to her death.


Cool, so you agree void shiki isn’t special in that regard. Great that you came along

You can't prove anything with what you say. And no Saber Shiki is not Void Shiki, I explained to you the reasons for that. And for you to say that Void Shiki is not special in that I thought you could clearly understand the difference between using the Root and being the Root itself. And the personality thing you mentioned is completely irrelevant because I never said anything different about it, we know from the outside that you have the same body as Shiki...

 

[Wankbreaker]

You can't prove anything with what you say. And no Saber Shiki is not Void Shiki, I explained to you the reasons for that.

And I explained the reasons why she is…. let’s review them.
1. Is the same Shiki from Kara no Kyoukai
2. Void possesses a skill that allows her to manifest in parallel worlds in some fashion
3. The “dreaming” is suspiciously similar to this skill.

What’s next, Shiki Ryougi isn’t Shiki Ryougi?

And for you to say that Void Shiki is not special in that I thought you could clearly understand the difference between using the Root and being the Root itself.

Quick question. Do you think “0” here is referring to the Root and its nature as the source of all things? This is important to proceed.

And the personality thing you mentioned is completely irrelevant because I never said anything different about it, we know from the outside that you have the same body as Shiki...

She is the body itself. This was explained to you multiple times using quotes from the novels and her FGO profile.

 

[Cautiousexedius]

And I explained the reasons why she is…. let’s review them.
1. Is the same Shiki from Kara no Kyoukai
2. Void possesses a skill that allows her to manifest in parallel worlds in some fashion
3. The “dreaming” is suspiciously similar to this skill.

What’s next, Shiki Ryougi isn’t Shiki Ryougi?

Quick question. Do you think “0” here is referring to the Root and its nature as the source of all things? This is important to proceed.



She is the body itself. This was explained to you multiple times using quotes from the novels and her FGO profile.

I gave a long explanation at the top of the page about whether it is the same as Shiki from Kara no Kyoukai, so I suggest you check again.

Saber indirectly has the ability to manifest in parallel worlds, and it is even possible that other characters can do so as well. This is not proof either.

Saying "similar" doesn't get you anywhere, you are only speaking hypothetically. And your assumptions are wrong. I pointed out that its invalidity would create a contradiction within the verse, and you are using these arguments with the prejudice that it is invalid and actually "weaker than we think". I think I have answered that sufficiently.

And no, we cannot say with certainty whether the 0 in the scan you mention refers to Origin or not. Because even such explanations would be insufficient to explain Origin.

I said that just because the body is itself does not mean that it is limited to this body. What you say might be true if it had no relation to Origin, but you continue to defend an invalid argument. Shiki in the FGO profile is not the Void.

 

[Stillwinston]

Poor Lancer he's getting ga shinda'd

 

[Hypercyber37]

I gave a long explanation at the top of the page about whether it is the same as Shiki from Kara no Kyoukai, so I suggest you check again.

Saber indirectly has the ability to manifest in parallel worlds, and it is even possible that other characters can do so as well. This is not proof either.

Saying "similar" doesn't get you anywhere, you are only speaking hypothetically. And your assumptions are wrong. I pointed out that its invalidity would create a contradiction within the verse, and you are using these arguments with the prejudice that it is invalid and actually "weaker than we think". I think I have answered that sufficiently.

And no, we cannot say with certainty whether the 0 in the scan you mention refers to Origin or not. Because even such explanations would be insufficient to explain Origin.

I said that just because the body is itself does not mean that it is limited to this body. What you say might be true if it had no relation to Origin, but you continue to defend an invalid argument. Shiki in the FGO profile is not the Void.

Are you planning to open a Thread that will bring back Shiki's root scale?

 

[Huesito88]

Are you planning to open a calc that will bring back Shiki's root scale?

A Calc?

 

[Hypercyber37]

A Calc?

I mean Thread. My bad