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Following an earlier revision thread that was inconclusive -- partially due to attempting to cover several complicated subjects at the same time -- I am re-addressing what I think is the most important issue to revise so that the discussion is not too complicated to get more staff input. The subject in question is the dimensions within Nasuverse. This subject is fairly intense by itself, so I have done my best to organize the post well so that it is easy to digest despite how much text is involved.
Sections One and Two, "Avalon" and "The Moon Cell" explain the two constructs that are currently tiered as higher dimensional, and provide some brief objections to the premise of their scaling. If you're already familiar with these subjects, you can mostly skip over this or just read the "objections" at the end.
Section Three, "Higher Dimensions" explains the scan that serves as the foremost basis for tiering both of these as higher dimensional, and provides a thorough breakdown of why I do not consider that basis particularly sound. Much of this was already covered in the last thread, so if you already participated in that one, you can probably skip this.
Section Four and Five, "Souls" and "Heroic Spirits" provides counter-evidence to the interpretation of higher dimensions being higher infinities by providing concrete proof in the verse of powers that are called higher dimensional but are explicitly portrayed as having finite levels of power, between Tier 9 and Tier 6. I provided some of this at the end of the last thread, but it closed shortly thereafter before it was assessed by other staff (partially due to the fatigue from how dense the discussion had become) so this is more the focal point.
Avalon:
Objections: In a nutshell, many characters in the verse scale to Low 1-C essentially because one of the four guidebooks that describes Avalon's ability does so by saying it "blocks multidimensional communication up to the sixth" with no expansion on what those dimensions are. Avalon's ability is never described that way in any of the actual source material, and the three other guidebooks that describe this ability simply say it blocks out physical interference. We have dozens of characters treated as Low 1-C because of this.
The Moon Cell:
Objections: Essentially, this supercomputer that contains digital worlds is treated as 8-D because of a single line from BB saying that a "perfectly spherical spirit particle defense wall that cuts through eight dimensions" blocked her from getting into the Moon Cell's core, which has seven layers below it and thus that is likely the true meaning. This quote is the sole reference to anything "8-dimensional" in the Moon Cell, and it is certainly not spatial because this is describing a digital world made of numbers.
Further, this wall is described as "perfectly spherical." Spheres are three-dimensional, the same way that circles are two-dimensional. An eight-dimensional sphere makes as much sense as an eight dimensional circle. A four dimensional analogue is called a glome.
Higher Dimensions:
Objections: This relationship isn't spatial dimensionality, of which there is none within the Moon Cell (it is digital, information), it is BB's distinct position outside of these timelines as the admin of a computer system which is running them as a simulation. This has nothing to do with Avalon or the Spherical Defense Wall that we currently use to tier some of these characters. What Rin is describing here is currently being used to model the guidebook statement for Avalon as meaning "three layers of R>F transcendence over the regular world" when in fact these two pieces of information couldn't be more unrelated.
Souls
Objections: All of these quotes are regarding characters who we currently treat as Tier 6. They absorb souls on a regular basis, but the energy that these souls provide to them is not infinite, and the power they wield with this energy is mountain level. The point being, souls are not a higher infinity, and they are directly stated to be the same kind of higher dimensional as the Moon Cell.
Heroic Spirits
Objections: Essentially, true Heroic Spirits are directly described as being within a single order of magnitude of power as their Servant counterparts, despite this, they are directly said to exist in a higher dimension that transcends time, viewing time in a similar manner to BB.
Conclusion
In conclusion, we currently treat Avalon as 6-D and the Moon Cell as 8-D on a very poor basis. For Avalon it is because one of the several guidebooks that describes it says it blocks communications up to the sixth dimension, with this concept and ability being entirely absent outside of that guidebook and with no explanation given as to the nature of these dimensions. For Moon Cell it is because BB encountered a wall that "cuts through eight dimensions" blocking her from entering the Core, which is stated to be above seven layers of the Moon Cell (and thus, the wall is probably described as such due to it guarding the Core, it "blocks off the eight layer"). Both of these statements are regarded as multiple levels of infinity due to a monologue by Rin which, in the context it was given, is very clearly explaining a difference in the perception of time (answering a question about the difference between the Recorded Universe and the Observed Universe), and explaining BB's position in the Core as giving her an atemporal view of the digital worlds that the Moon Cell simulates. The Moon Cell, meanwhile, is routinely described as non-physical.
Moreover, we have multiple instances where higher-dimensional things in the verse do not have infinitely great power, and in fact wield a comparably modest level of power. Souls are regularly called higher dimensional and yet need to be absorbed in the thousands by Servants who only wield sub-planetary levels of power, and they very specifically are the same kind of higher-dimensional as the Moon Cell, being used to create computers that can interact with it. There is also the true heroic spirits which transcend time and exist in a dimension above our own, and yet Sakura obtained a power level comparable to them despite only absorbing 6 or 7 servants, and wielded a pool of magic energy that was very distinctly not infinitely greater than Rin, a normal human mage who is currently Tier 9.
Therefore, the dozens of profiles that are currently Low 1-C due to Avalon or the Moon Cell are tiered on a fairly egregious and extremely generous overestimation of the evidence we have, and thus should be downgraded to the next best feat that they actually scale to. There are quite a few feats that have never been critical evaluated due to being overshadowed by the Avalon and Moon Cell silliness, and they should be the basis for these power levels rather than specious dimensional tiering from a single fleeting reference in a guide book or a throw-away line about a wall.
Sections One and Two, "Avalon" and "The Moon Cell" explain the two constructs that are currently tiered as higher dimensional, and provide some brief objections to the premise of their scaling. If you're already familiar with these subjects, you can mostly skip over this or just read the "objections" at the end.
Section Three, "Higher Dimensions" explains the scan that serves as the foremost basis for tiering both of these as higher dimensional, and provides a thorough breakdown of why I do not consider that basis particularly sound. Much of this was already covered in the last thread, so if you already participated in that one, you can probably skip this.
Section Four and Five, "Souls" and "Heroic Spirits" provides counter-evidence to the interpretation of higher dimensions being higher infinities by providing concrete proof in the verse of powers that are called higher dimensional but are explicitly portrayed as having finite levels of power, between Tier 9 and Tier 6. I provided some of this at the end of the last thread, but it closed shortly thereafter before it was assessed by other staff (partially due to the fatigue from how dense the discussion had become) so this is more the focal point.
Avalon:
We currently treat dimensions in Nasuverse as having qualitative superiority. There is an item in Nasuverse called "Avalon" which is essentially the scabbard of Excalibur, but there is a scan that describes Avalon as being the Inner Sea of the World, where the soul of the Earth is kept. Thus, beings that can destroy the Earth are often scaled as though they can destroy Avalon.
Why does that matter? Well, in one of the guidebooks titled Fate/side material, an ability that Avalon's ability is described as such (shortened to relevant portion):Its name is Avalon. The inner sea of the planet.
It is another name for the place where the Earth's soul is kept.
-Fate/Grand Order, "The Tower of Avalon" (Merlin's Bond CE)
As a result, we currently treat every character who can destroy Avalon as being able to destroy a infinite six-dimensional multiverse. I will point out that this guidebook is only one location where Everdistant Utopia is described, and none of the others mention anything about dimensions, see below:It was a Noble Phantasm reaching the realm of True Magic. Avalon shut out all physical interference, operation of parallel worlds, and multi-dimensional communication (up to the sixth dimension).
Fate/Zero Material:
Fate/Complete Material III:The power of the sheath of Excalibur. Expanding the sheath, it shuts out all physical interference by placing the owner in the land of the fairies.
The matching “scabbard” of the holy sword Excalibur. The wielder does not age, and injuries will also quickly heal.
After invoking its true name, Avalon dissipates as tiny particles into the air, and shields the wielder from all interference. No damage can be done to the wielder when a state of absolute defence is initiated. Even interference from the parallel world based on the Second Magic will be blocked. An “absolute defence” that can even repel the assault of True Magic, it is a True Magic in itself. No one can harm the tranquil King that stands in the land of Avalon.
When Avalon was unleashed, not even the King of Heroes could harm Sabre.
Fate/Complete Material II:The sheath of Excalibur, a Noble Phantasm with its origin in the Fairyland Avalon where King Arthur rests. The wielder will heal from any wound, and the aging process will cease. Unleashing the true name of Avalon will deploy a Bound Field that provides the greatest defence. A Noble Phantasm that annuls the interference of True Magic; its existence is equivalent to True Magic.
In legend, losing this sheath casted an ominous shadow onto the life of King Arthur, eventually cascading to the collapse of the kingdom. In modern times, the Einzberns excavated Avalon at Cornwall and passed it into the hands of Emiya Kiritsugu. Afterward, it was planted into the body of Emiya Shirou to save his life, eventually becoming the link that led to his bond with Artoria. In Fate Route, Artoria learned that Shirou was her “sheath”, which led the duo to emerge victorious in the Holy Grail War.
Avalon, the Everdistant Utopia. The name of Excalibur’s sheathe, which also holds power as a Noble Phantasm. Aside from healing the user’s wounds and halting their aging, it also turns into a perfect fortress that protects against all physical interference when activated. Even in Arthurian legend, Excalibur’s sheathe is a “magic sheathe”. After Arthur received Excalibur from the fairy of the lake, he was approached by the wizard Merlin, who bequeathed upon him an enchanted sheathe. It is said that as long as he possessed this sheathe, he would not spill so much as a drop of his own blood. As such, it was even more valuable than Excalibur, and its loss to the machinations of his half-sister Morgan Le Faye is connected to King Arthur’s death.
Objections: In a nutshell, many characters in the verse scale to Low 1-C essentially because one of the four guidebooks that describes Avalon's ability does so by saying it "blocks multidimensional communication up to the sixth" with no expansion on what those dimensions are. Avalon's ability is never described that way in any of the actual source material, and the three other guidebooks that describe this ability simply say it blocks out physical interference. We have dozens of characters treated as Low 1-C because of this.
The Moon Cell:
The Moon Cell is a super-computer within the Moon that digitally simulates worlds. It observes the Earth and records the data, and models outcomes in a large number of digital timelines that are maintained within it. It cannot be entered physically, mages must convert their souls into data to enter those worlds. One character, BB, takes over the Moon Cell by entering the Core. Just before reaching the core, she comes across the Moon Cell's final defense that she describes as such:
On a similar basis as above, this has warped Moon-level scaling to Low 1-C as well, as it was interpreted as BB essentially being able to destroy an eight-dimensional universe. It is worth noting, this is the only instance where anything in the Moon Cell is described this way. The Moon Cell has 7 layers below the core, so the odd phrasing of "cuts through eight dimensions" sounds more like it blocks off the eight layer, the Moon Cell's core.
From another angle, we are told repeatedly that the Moon Cell is a non-physical space. All of this takes place in a digital form of existence as light particles within the giant fiber-optic crystals within which the worlds of the Moon Cell exists. There are no spatial dimensions in the Moon Cell, mages literally turn themselves into numbers and leave their bodies behind to enter it.
It's a perfectly spherical spirit particle defense wall that cuts through eight dimensions. It looks like it'll be very hard to break down this wall. But this is the last move. After I break this wall into little pieces I'll have reached my goal.
On a similar basis as above, this has warped Moon-level scaling to Low 1-C as well, as it was interpreted as BB essentially being able to destroy an eight-dimensional universe. It is worth noting, this is the only instance where anything in the Moon Cell is described this way. The Moon Cell has 7 layers below the core, so the odd phrasing of "cuts through eight dimensions" sounds more like it blocks off the eight layer, the Moon Cell's core.
The Moon Cell‘s core is the Moon Cell. As far as Moon Cell is concerned, the seven layers that make up the interior of the Moon are just “additional memory.”
From another angle, we are told repeatedly that the Moon Cell is a non-physical space. All of this takes place in a digital form of existence as light particles within the giant fiber-optic crystals within which the worlds of the Moon Cell exists. There are no spatial dimensions in the Moon Cell, mages literally turn themselves into numbers and leave their bodies behind to enter it.
Going beyond the inner second level is difficult for non-wizards, there is no way to get inside physically.
Without soul transference, without having a data body converted into virtual spiritrons, it isn't possible to look into the abyss.
To be a true hacker, one 'must have the rare ability to clearly imagine the nature of one's body virtually as a sequence of numbers, utilizing a set of imaginary "nerves" known as "magical circuits." The Moon Cell recognizes beings with this ability, and allows them to cultivate its virtual space
Before, consciousness was thought to only manifest through a physical body. But magi managed to measure the position of “the soul” and redirect its output into a new world; the cyber world. They succeeded in allowing one to create a digital copy of themselves
Objections: Essentially, this supercomputer that contains digital worlds is treated as 8-D because of a single line from BB saying that a "perfectly spherical spirit particle defense wall that cuts through eight dimensions" blocked her from getting into the Moon Cell's core, which has seven layers below it and thus that is likely the true meaning. This quote is the sole reference to anything "8-dimensional" in the Moon Cell, and it is certainly not spatial because this is describing a digital world made of numbers.
Further, this wall is described as "perfectly spherical." Spheres are three-dimensional, the same way that circles are two-dimensional. An eight-dimensional sphere makes as much sense as an eight dimensional circle. A four dimensional analogue is called a glome.
Higher Dimensions:
So, why are dimensions treated as higher infinities in Nasuverse in the first place, even if Avalon was actually a 6-D shield that protects the Earth or the Moon Cell was actually an 8-D construct? Well, the primary source of evidence for this is a quote from Rin, a character in Fate/Extra which takes place within the Moon Cell. She is asked to explain the difference between the Recorded Universe (the digital timelines of the Moon Cell) and the Observed Universe (the world that the Moon Cell observes and predicts the future of). It reads as follows:
Due to some key phrases, such as "From this higher dimension, the third dimension looks like a flat scroll. Er, if the three-dimensional world is a world drawn in a book, and then if you jumped inside the book and came out outside the book, something like that?" the higher dimensionality is treated as referring to a sort of R>F difference of infinitely greater power, and this is used to say that the 8-D Moon Cell has 5 such layers of infinitely greater power above a typical 3-D universe. However, if we dig deeper I think it's clear that this is not a great representation of BB's relationship with these worlds.
First, Rin is explaining the difference between the Observed Universe and the Recorded Universe, and she does so first by explaining the difference in the passage of time. In the real world, time passes and can never be reversed. The past is set in stone. However, the worlds of the Moon Cell are just data. Inhabitants of these worlds might experience something akin to time from their own perspectives, but from a "higher dimensional perspective" such as BB who took control of the Moon Cell's core and is now in charge of the supercomputer that simulates these timelines, she can oversee the entire timeline like a flat scroll, or a book, where you can flip back and forth freely. She is not bound to the simulation of time within the worlds.
She explains this concretely in this section:
Rin :: The observed universe…? Ah, I mentioned that in my explanation, I guess. “There’s no passage of time here. If it were a loop we might still have hope…” was that it? A time loop is when time goes in a circle. It means you return to the past, so theoretically you could alter not only known situations, but also unknown ones. But we don’t have dreams like that here. Because no matter what happens the “result” can’t be changed. The far side of the moon is a world made of imaginary numbers. There’s a concept of time here, but the way it works is different from the real thing.
You would call it the difference between “recognized time” and “recorded time,” I guess. See, right now we’re standing here talking, and that’s the present, right? But, …one, two, three, and. Right. So now the previous me…what I said three seconds ago has become the “past.” Even though we’re still in the middle of the “same conversation.” That’s the flow of time according to your cognizance. Humans divide time and space into past, present, and future according to their own cognizance. That’s the very simple physical law of observed space. As we can’t see what will come after the present, there fluctuations in related parties can change the future. It’s too late now, but the real world and the near side of the moon are both operated as this observed universe. You understand so far?
Rin :: On the other hand, the laws of the recorded universe are different. The perception of the recorded universe is over many dimensions…think of it as a higher dimensional existence. From this higher dimension, the third dimension looks like a flat scroll. Er, if the three-dimensional world is a world drawn in a book, and then if you jumped inside the book and came out outside the book, something like that? And then you’re able to look down on any point in your past, present, and future from when you were inside the book, as a record — that’s the higher dimensional perspective. You get it? Under these circumstances, all time inside the book becomes equivalent. Since you can always turn to whatever time you want to. There’s no past or future. It’s the same as that.
This is imaginary number space, a higher dimensional information space made from light. The far side of the moon is fundamentally operated according to the laws of the recorded universe, not the observed universe. We are foreign bodies…no, guests. Creatures of the the observed universe that have been thrown into the recorded universe. Whereas the Moon Cell’s Core is a concurrent world simulator where all possibilities are calculated and the past, present, and future all exist at the same time. In other words, it belongs to the recorded universe. BB has become that Moon Cell. She’s obtained a higher dimensional perspective. So — BB can handle the past and the future simultaneously. The moment BB reached the core, she obtained the power to select and determine the future. The Moon Cell, when used to be only the eyes of god, by combining with the AI BB, has become the brain of god. I don’t know how many hours in the future it is, but at any rate BB has reached the Moon Cell. That fact alone is completely immovable. Having thus become a being of the recorded universe, BB, able to make things true retroactively, became aware of “this present moment.” …your head gets mixed up thinking about it though. So as soon as she became the Moon Cell, BB was able to convey “this present moment” even to her past self. …So, BB knew from the beginning. That no matter what we wouldn’t make it in time.
Due to some key phrases, such as "From this higher dimension, the third dimension looks like a flat scroll. Er, if the three-dimensional world is a world drawn in a book, and then if you jumped inside the book and came out outside the book, something like that?" the higher dimensionality is treated as referring to a sort of R>F difference of infinitely greater power, and this is used to say that the 8-D Moon Cell has 5 such layers of infinitely greater power above a typical 3-D universe. However, if we dig deeper I think it's clear that this is not a great representation of BB's relationship with these worlds.
First, Rin is explaining the difference between the Observed Universe and the Recorded Universe, and she does so first by explaining the difference in the passage of time. In the real world, time passes and can never be reversed. The past is set in stone. However, the worlds of the Moon Cell are just data. Inhabitants of these worlds might experience something akin to time from their own perspectives, but from a "higher dimensional perspective" such as BB who took control of the Moon Cell's core and is now in charge of the supercomputer that simulates these timelines, she can oversee the entire timeline like a flat scroll, or a book, where you can flip back and forth freely. She is not bound to the simulation of time within the worlds.
She explains this concretely in this section:
The Moon Cell’s Core is a concurrent world simulator where all possibilities are calculated and the past, present, and future all exist at the same time. In other words, it belongs to the recorded universe. BB has become that Moon Cell. She’s obtained a higher dimensional perspective. So — BB can handle the past and the future simultaneously.
Souls
Souls are an important topic here and I think they compose the most direct "counter-evidence" about seeing the term "higher-dimensional" as referring to Higher Infinities within Nasuverse, because we can concretely observe that they are higher-dimensional but not higher infinities.
Souls are definitively higher dimensional, they are called such many many times, and not only that, we know that they are precisely the same kind of higher-dimensional as the Moon Cell, as they are directly used to interact with it and create computers that can interact with it.
I probably could have made my point with fewer scans, but I wanted to drive the point home: Souls are higher dimensional in Nasuverse, that much is beat into our heads over and over again. They're also not a physical phenomenon and thus shouldn't be thought of as having spatial dimensions. Moreover, we know that they do not have infinite power. This is a particularly crucial aspect. We are shown time and time again that servants, most of whom are Tier 6 or even lower, absorb many hundreds or even thousands of souls to increase their magic energy.
Also, Servants themselves are literally materialized souls.
Souls are definitively higher dimensional, they are called such many many times, and not only that, we know that they are precisely the same kind of higher-dimensional as the Moon Cell, as they are directly used to interact with it and create computers that can interact with it.
Pseudo-Spiritron Computer
This is a super computer that was created using spiritrons made based on the Magic Theory of Pseudo-Spiritrons.
It is a machine that uses spiritrons created from a soul defined as a machine. The use of spiritrons makes high speed computation possible.
The Pseudo-Spiritron Computer is a parallel computation device that uses the soul (which resides in a higher dimension) as its axis to activate a “something” which lies in a parallel world.
The first version of the Pseudo-Spiritron Computer was completed in 1980.
Its processing power was so great that it even surpassed the expected processing power of a quantum computer that would finish being developed and built in 2030.
(Quantum computer development was frozen by the West Europe Plutocracy in 1999)
The United Nations led investigation unit first managed to infiltrate the Moon with the assistance of this Pseudo-Spiritron Computer.
In that case―――what do you think records my body and gives it form?" It is obvious. The soul.
It is not the law of the physical world, but something of the higher order, the record of all the bodies within the concept of the astral world.
Pseudo-Spiritron [concept]
Before, consciousness was thought to only manifest through a physical body. But magi managed to measure the position of “the soul” and redirect its output into a new world; the cyber world. They succeeded in allowing one to create a digital copy of themselves (a bunshin).
After this magi could transfer themselves into the digital world and carry out higher level information gathering.
The soul is a energy body that resides in a higher dimension, and is actually an unbelievably excellent information medium.
Soul [concept]
A soul resides in all life forms that are intelligent. It is spiritual life that is not part of any physical phenomenon.
The soul is a “will” that lies in another dimension, and that will occupies a body.
Defined as the substance that is the “true essence” of the soul, which is thought to reside in a higher dimension.
That unchanging thing is the “meaning” of the existence of the soul which lies in a higher dimension.
The families combined their secret techniques to develop the system to give structure and summon a Holy Grail capable of serving as a wish granting machine with the aim of enabling man to evolve to escape the bonds of the material body, and ascend to be higher dimension beings, or “souls” that do not require a physical body to serve as an medium or output device.
The Pseudo-Spiritron Computer is a parallel computation device that uses the soul (which resides in a higher dimension) as its axis to activate a “something” which lies in a parallel world.
I probably could have made my point with fewer scans, but I wanted to drive the point home: Souls are higher dimensional in Nasuverse, that much is beat into our heads over and over again. They're also not a physical phenomenon and thus shouldn't be thought of as having spatial dimensions. Moreover, we know that they do not have infinite power. This is a particularly crucial aspect. We are shown time and time again that servants, most of whom are Tier 6 or even lower, absorb many hundreds or even thousands of souls to increase their magic energy.
There are boundary fields that drain physical and mental strength from people within them, but the boundary field laid out over this school is on a completely different level.
This is a soul-eater. It is a Bloodfort that dissolves people within it and claims the souls that seep out.
"...It is as you suspect. I told you we are basically spirits. Therefore, our meals consist of souls and mental constituents.
As you subsist on meat, we subsist on souls and minds.
Our basic abilities do not change from such nourishment, but we do become tougher. In other words, our magical energy capacity increases."
"So the magical energy the Master provides isn't enough?"
"It's not that, but it doesn't hurt to have more. In war, if you lack strength, you make up for it with supplies, right?
It's a basic tactic for a Master to steal energy from the people around them. In that regard, this boundary field is very efficient."
"Of course. The Holy Grail merely summons these Servants, and it is the role of the Master to maintain them after that.
But that is possible only because the Holy Grail is aiding the Master. The magical energy of a magus is not enough to maintain a Servant. If one does not have a donor called the Holy Grail, their Servant will disappear."
"...I thought so. Then..."
"No. If you do not have enough, all you need do is compensate for that.
For Servants, furnishing magical energy is only an act of compensation. It is their true nature to consume souls. If their existence starts to fade, it can be replenished using other souls."
"Wha――"
Does that mean attacking random people like Shinji did?
"Exactly. Usually, they replenish enough magical energy from their Master.
But it's obvious that one gets more magical energy from many people rather than just one person, right?
To put it bluntly, a weak Master makes his Servant eat humans."
"――――"
"Servants transform human emotions and souls into magical energy.
That is the most efficient way to make your Servant more powerful. There are many Masters who kill humans as sacrifices for their Servant."
If you want to keep Saber, all you need to do is feed her souls."
Is she still not satisfied after consuming a heroic spirit with energy worth a few hundred thousand souls?
Also, Servants themselves are literally materialized souls.
"W-Wait...! So the Third Sorcery is the materialization of the soul!? But Servants are materialized souls too...!"
Objections: All of these quotes are regarding characters who we currently treat as Tier 6. They absorb souls on a regular basis, but the energy that these souls provide to them is not infinite, and the power they wield with this energy is mountain level. The point being, souls are not a higher infinity, and they are directly stated to be the same kind of higher dimensional as the Moon Cell.
Heroic Spirits
Heroic Spirits are the true form of Servants that are summoned to Earth for Holy Grail wars. It is the case that Servants are weaker than true Heroic Spirits, as only a portion of their power comes to earth. However, these true forms are not infinitely more powerful, this much is spelled out fairly concretely within the verse.
1. Heroic Spirits are explicitly said to be an existence of a higher order, separate from the time axis, that transcends time and views past and present simultaneously (like in Rin's monologue.)
2. Sakura Matou, with the Black Shadow (antagonist of the Heaven's Feel route of Fate/stay night), was said to be on the level of pure Heroic Spirits, not just servants. She is currently Tier 6-C.
3. Counter Guardians (of the Counter Force) are actual bonafide Heroic Spirits, summoned by the World.
4. During this time, she was said to have 100,000,000 magical energy to Rin's 300. This was because she had access to the Holy Grail.
5. This 100,000,000 pool of magical energy was based on collecting the magical energy from six Servants that were summoned. So the energy level that was said to be equal to a true Heroic Spirit was only a few times higher than a Servant.
In conclusion, this is yet another case where a higher dimensional being (or rather, a character said directly to be similar in power to one) is shown to be not have a higher infinity level of power, as she had only absorbed seven servants (one of whom was said to be worth 100,000 souls).
I've been told that some of the true heroic spirits have potentially universal feats, which may render this objection moot, but at the moment most of those feats haven't been properly analyzed because all of these characters default to Low 1-C due to the Avalon scaling. My main point isn't to claim that there's no info in the verse that could scale true heroic spirits highly, just to show that despite their higher-dimensional nature, they are not intended to be Low 1-C by default due to transcending something. They are within an order of magnitude of power of their servant counterparts.
1. Heroic Spirits are explicitly said to be an existence of a higher order, separate from the time axis, that transcends time and views past and present simultaneously (like in Rin's monologue.)
Heroic Spirits are a spiritual phenomenon of a higher order, and the Throne of Heroic Spirits exists in a dimension above this dimension.
They are an existence that transcend time.
Those who have become Heroic Spirits are freed from the constraints of time and are moved to the Throne of Heroes, existing to the outside of the World.
2. Sakura Matou, with the Black Shadow (antagonist of the Heaven's Feel route of Fate/stay night), was said to be on the level of pure Heroic Spirits, not just servants. She is currently Tier 6-C.
She's covering her body with her own dark magical energy.
―――The amount and the presence of her magical energy is beyond human capabilities.
She's at the same level as pure heroic spirits, the Counter Guardians.
Is she still not satisfied after consuming a heroic spirit with energy worth a few hundred thousand souls? (This was after she absorbed Gilgamesh)
3. Counter Guardians (of the Counter Force) are actual bonafide Heroic Spirits, summoned by the World.
What can be thought of as a heroic spirit’s “main body” resides in the Throne of Heroes, and can only be summoned by the World. A Servant is merely an “emanation” or pseudo-copy of a heroic spirit’s main body, summoned by ritual.
4. During this time, she was said to have 100,000,000 magical energy to Rin's 300. This was because she had access to the Holy Grail.
Sakura's magical energy is infinite.
Her capacity reaches a hundred million.
To Rin, whose capacity is a mere three hundred, Sakura is a monster.
5. This 100,000,000 pool of magical energy was based on collecting the magical energy from six Servants that were summoned. So the energy level that was said to be equal to a true Heroic Spirit was only a few times higher than a Servant.
"You should not be surprised. The Holy Grail is a filtration device that turns the soul into pure magical energy.
Yes, it should let you grant any wish. It contains more magical energy than a magus could ever use within his lifetime.
That is why it is better with more sacrifices. It should be omnipotent with six Servants as sacrifices.
Five Servants have filled the Holy Grail. Only one more is needed for the omnipotent grail they sought."
"―――Then... Then only the Masters can handle the Holy Grail. If it is a repository of pure magical energy, only magi can use it.
...Yes. If the Master is an excellent magus, it――――"
In conclusion, this is yet another case where a higher dimensional being (or rather, a character said directly to be similar in power to one) is shown to be not have a higher infinity level of power, as she had only absorbed seven servants (one of whom was said to be worth 100,000 souls).
I've been told that some of the true heroic spirits have potentially universal feats, which may render this objection moot, but at the moment most of those feats haven't been properly analyzed because all of these characters default to Low 1-C due to the Avalon scaling. My main point isn't to claim that there's no info in the verse that could scale true heroic spirits highly, just to show that despite their higher-dimensional nature, they are not intended to be Low 1-C by default due to transcending something. They are within an order of magnitude of power of their servant counterparts.
Objections: Essentially, true Heroic Spirits are directly described as being within a single order of magnitude of power as their Servant counterparts, despite this, they are directly said to exist in a higher dimension that transcends time, viewing time in a similar manner to BB.
Conclusion
In conclusion, we currently treat Avalon as 6-D and the Moon Cell as 8-D on a very poor basis. For Avalon it is because one of the several guidebooks that describes it says it blocks communications up to the sixth dimension, with this concept and ability being entirely absent outside of that guidebook and with no explanation given as to the nature of these dimensions. For Moon Cell it is because BB encountered a wall that "cuts through eight dimensions" blocking her from entering the Core, which is stated to be above seven layers of the Moon Cell (and thus, the wall is probably described as such due to it guarding the Core, it "blocks off the eight layer"). Both of these statements are regarded as multiple levels of infinity due to a monologue by Rin which, in the context it was given, is very clearly explaining a difference in the perception of time (answering a question about the difference between the Recorded Universe and the Observed Universe), and explaining BB's position in the Core as giving her an atemporal view of the digital worlds that the Moon Cell simulates. The Moon Cell, meanwhile, is routinely described as non-physical.
Moreover, we have multiple instances where higher-dimensional things in the verse do not have infinitely great power, and in fact wield a comparably modest level of power. Souls are regularly called higher dimensional and yet need to be absorbed in the thousands by Servants who only wield sub-planetary levels of power, and they very specifically are the same kind of higher-dimensional as the Moon Cell, being used to create computers that can interact with it. There is also the true heroic spirits which transcend time and exist in a dimension above our own, and yet Sakura obtained a power level comparable to them despite only absorbing 6 or 7 servants, and wielded a pool of magic energy that was very distinctly not infinitely greater than Rin, a normal human mage who is currently Tier 9.
Therefore, the dozens of profiles that are currently Low 1-C due to Avalon or the Moon Cell are tiered on a fairly egregious and extremely generous overestimation of the evidence we have, and thus should be downgraded to the next best feat that they actually scale to. There are quite a few feats that have never been critical evaluated due to being overshadowed by the Avalon and Moon Cell silliness, and they should be the basis for these power levels rather than specious dimensional tiering from a single fleeting reference in a guide book or a throw-away line about a wall.