Nasuverse Dimensions Revision

[Deagonx]

Following an earlier revision thread that was inconclusive -- partially due to attempting to cover several complicated subjects at the same time -- I am re-addressing what I think is the most important issue to revise so that the discussion is not too complicated to get more staff input. The subject in question is the dimensions within Nasuverse. This subject is fairly intense by itself, so I have done my best to organize the post well so that it is easy to digest despite how much text is involved.

Sections One and Two, "Avalon" and "The Moon Cell" explain the two constructs that are currently tiered as higher dimensional, and provide some brief objections to the premise of their scaling. If you're already familiar with these subjects, you can mostly skip over this or just read the "objections" at the end.

Section Three, "Higher Dimensions" explains the scan that serves as the foremost basis for tiering both of these as higher dimensional, and provides a thorough breakdown of why I do not consider that basis particularly sound. Much of this was already covered in the last thread, so if you already participated in that one, you can probably skip this.

Section Four and Five, "Souls" and "Heroic Spirits" provides counter-evidence to the interpretation of higher dimensions being higher infinities by providing concrete proof in the verse of powers that are called higher dimensional but are explicitly portrayed as having finite levels of power, between Tier 9 and Tier 6. I provided some of this at the end of the last thread, but it closed shortly thereafter before it was assessed by other staff (partially due to the fatigue from how dense the discussion had become) so this is more the focal point.

Avalon:

Spoiler: Avalon

We currently treat dimensions in Nasuverse as having qualitative superiority. There is an item in Nasuverse called "Avalon" which is essentially the scabbard of Excalibur, but there is a scan that describes Avalon as being the Inner Sea of the World, where the soul of the Earth is kept. Thus, beings that can destroy the Earth are often scaled as though they can destroy Avalon.

Its name is Avalon. The inner sea of the planet.
It is another name for the place where the Earth's soul is kept.
-Fate/Grand Order, "The Tower of Avalon" (Merlin's Bond CE)

Why does that matter? Well, in one of the guidebooks titled Fate/side material, an ability that Avalon's ability is described as such (shortened to relevant portion):

It was a Noble Phantasm reaching the realm of True Magic. Avalon shut out all physical interference, operation of parallel worlds, and multi-dimensional communication (up to the sixth dimension).

As a result, we currently treat every character who can destroy Avalon as being able to destroy a infinite six-dimensional multiverse. I will point out that this guidebook is only one location where Everdistant Utopia is described, and none of the others mention anything about dimensions, see below:

Spoiler: The Everdistant Utopia

Fate/Zero Material:

The power of the sheath of Excalibur. Expanding the sheath, it shuts out all physical interference by placing the owner in the land of the fairies.

Fate/Complete Material III:

The matching “scabbard” of the holy sword Excalibur. The wielder does not age, and injuries will also quickly heal.
After invoking its true name, Avalon dissipates as tiny particles into the air, and shields the wielder from all interference. No damage can be done to the wielder when a state of absolute defence is initiated. Even interference from the parallel world based on the Second Magic will be blocked. An “absolute defence” that can even repel the assault of True Magic, it is a True Magic in itself. No one can harm the tranquil King that stands in the land of Avalon.
When Avalon was unleashed, not even the King of Heroes could harm Sabre.

The sheath of Excalibur, a Noble Phantasm with its origin in the Fairyland Avalon where King Arthur rests. The wielder will heal from any wound, and the aging process will cease. Unleashing the true name of Avalon will deploy a Bound Field that provides the greatest defence. A Noble Phantasm that annuls the interference of True Magic; its existence is equivalent to True Magic.
In legend, losing this sheath casted an ominous shadow onto the life of King Arthur, eventually cascading to the collapse of the kingdom. In modern times, the Einzberns excavated Avalon at Cornwall and passed it into the hands of Emiya Kiritsugu. Afterward, it was planted into the body of Emiya Shirou to save his life, eventually becoming the link that led to his bond with Artoria. In Fate Route, Artoria learned that Shirou was her “sheath”, which led the duo to emerge victorious in the Holy Grail War.

Fate/Complete Material II:

Avalon, the Everdistant Utopia. The name of Excalibur’s sheathe, which also holds power as a Noble Phantasm. Aside from healing the user’s wounds and halting their aging, it also turns into a perfect fortress that protects against all physical interference when activated. Even in Arthurian legend, Excalibur’s sheathe is a “magic sheathe”. After Arthur received Excalibur from the fairy of the lake, he was approached by the wizard Merlin, who bequeathed upon him an enchanted sheathe. It is said that as long as he possessed this sheathe, he would not spill so much as a drop of his own blood. As such, it was even more valuable than Excalibur, and its loss to the machinations of his half-sister Morgan Le Faye is connected to King Arthur’s death.

Objections: In a nutshell, many characters in the verse scale to Low 1-C essentially because one of the four guidebooks that describes Avalon's ability does so by saying it "blocks multidimensional communication up to the sixth" with no expansion on what those dimensions are. Avalon's ability is never described that way in any of the actual source material, and the three other guidebooks that describe this ability simply say it blocks out physical interference. We have dozens of characters treated as Low 1-C because of this.


The Moon Cell:

Spoiler: Moon Cell

The Moon Cell is a super-computer within the Moon that digitally simulates worlds. It observes the Earth and records the data, and models outcomes in a large number of digital timelines that are maintained within it. It cannot be entered physically, mages must convert their souls into data to enter those worlds. One character, BB, takes over the Moon Cell by entering the Core. Just before reaching the core, she comes across the Moon Cell's final defense that she describes as such:

It's a perfectly spherical spirit particle defense wall that cuts through eight dimensions. It looks like it'll be very hard to break down this wall. But this is the last move. After I break this wall into little pieces I'll have reached my goal.

On a similar basis as above, this has warped Moon-level scaling to Low 1-C as well, as it was interpreted as BB essentially being able to destroy an eight-dimensional universe. It is worth noting, this is the only instance where anything in the Moon Cell is described this way. The Moon Cell has 7 layers below the core, so the odd phrasing of "cuts through eight dimensions" sounds more like it blocks off the eight layer, the Moon Cell's core.

The Moon Cell‘s core is the Moon Cell. As far as Moon Cell is concerned, the seven layers that make up the interior of the Moon are just “additional memory.”

From another angle, we are told repeatedly that the Moon Cell is a non-physical space. All of this takes place in a digital form of existence as light particles within the giant fiber-optic crystals within which the worlds of the Moon Cell exists. There are no spatial dimensions in the Moon Cell, mages literally turn themselves into numbers and leave their bodies behind to enter it.

Going beyond the inner second level is difficult for non-wizards, there is no way to get inside physically.
Without soul transference, without having a data body converted into virtual spiritrons, it isn't possible to look into the abyss.

To be a true hacker, one 'must have the rare ability to clearly imagine the nature of one's body virtually as a sequence of numbers, utilizing a set of imaginary "nerves" known as "magical circuits." The Moon Cell recognizes beings with this ability, and allows them to cultivate its virtual space

Before, consciousness was thought to only manifest through a physical body. But magi managed to measure the position of “the soul” and redirect its output into a new world; the cyber world. They succeeded in allowing one to create a digital copy of themselves

Objections: Essentially, this supercomputer that contains digital worlds is treated as 8-D because of a single line from BB saying that a "perfectly spherical spirit particle defense wall that cuts through eight dimensions" blocked her from getting into the Moon Cell's core, which has seven layers below it and thus that is likely the true meaning. This quote is the sole reference to anything "8-dimensional" in the Moon Cell, and it is certainly not spatial because this is describing a digital world made of numbers.

Further, this wall is described as "perfectly spherical." Spheres are three-dimensional, the same way that circles are two-dimensional. An eight-dimensional sphere makes as much sense as an eight dimensional circle. A four dimensional analogue is called a glome.

Higher Dimensions:

Spoiler: Higher Dimensions

So, why are dimensions treated as higher infinities in Nasuverse in the first place, even if Avalon was actually a 6-D shield that protects the Earth or the Moon Cell was actually an 8-D construct? Well, the primary source of evidence for this is a quote from Rin, a character in Fate/Extra which takes place within the Moon Cell. She is asked to explain the difference between the Recorded Universe (the digital timelines of the Moon Cell) and the Observed Universe (the world that the Moon Cell observes and predicts the future of). It reads as follows:

Rin :: The observed universe…? Ah, I mentioned that in my explanation, I guess. “There’s no passage of time here. If it were a loop we might still have hope…” was that it? A time loop is when time goes in a circle. It means you return to the past, so theoretically you could alter not only known situations, but also unknown ones. But we don’t have dreams like that here. Because no matter what happens the “result” can’t be changed. The far side of the moon is a world made of imaginary numbers. There’s a concept of time here, but the way it works is different from the real thing.

You would call it the difference between “recognized time” and “recorded time,” I guess. See, right now we’re standing here talking, and that’s the present, right? But, …one, two, three, and. Right. So now the previous me…what I said three seconds ago has become the “past.” Even though we’re still in the middle of the “same conversation.” That’s the flow of time according to your cognizance. Humans divide time and space into past, present, and future according to their own cognizance. That’s the very simple physical law of observed space. As we can’t see what will come after the present, there fluctuations in related parties can change the future. It’s too late now, but the real world and the near side of the moon are both operated as this observed universe. You understand so far?


Rin :: On the other hand, the laws of the recorded universe are different. The perception of the recorded universe is over many dimensions…think of it as a higher dimensional existence. From this higher dimension, the third dimension looks like a flat scroll. Er, if the three-dimensional world is a world drawn in a book, and then if you jumped inside the book and came out outside the book, something like that? And then you’re able to look down on any point in your past, present, and future from when you were inside the book, as a record — that’s the higher dimensional perspective. You get it? Under these circumstances, all time inside the book becomes equivalent. Since you can always turn to whatever time you want to. There’s no past or future. It’s the same as that.

This is imaginary number space, a higher dimensional information space made from light. The far side of the moon is fundamentally operated according to the laws of the recorded universe, not the observed universe. We are foreign bodies…no, guests. Creatures of the the observed universe that have been thrown into the recorded universe. Whereas the Moon Cell’s Core is a concurrent world simulator where all possibilities are calculated and the past, present, and future all exist at the same time. In other words, it belongs to the recorded universe. BB has become that Moon Cell. She’s obtained a higher dimensional perspective. So — BB can handle the past and the future simultaneously. The moment BB reached the core, she obtained the power to select and determine the future. The Moon Cell, when used to be only the eyes of god, by combining with the AI BB, has become the brain of god. I don’t know how many hours in the future it is, but at any rate BB has reached the Moon Cell. That fact alone is completely immovable. Having thus become a being of the recorded universe, BB, able to make things true retroactively, became aware of “this present moment.” …your head gets mixed up thinking about it though. So as soon as she became the Moon Cell, BB was able to convey “this present moment” even to her past self. …So, BB knew from the beginning. That no matter what we wouldn’t make it in time.

Due to some key phrases, such as "From this higher dimension, the third dimension looks like a flat scroll. Er, if the three-dimensional world is a world drawn in a book, and then if you jumped inside the book and came out outside the book, something like that?" the higher dimensionality is treated as referring to a sort of R>F difference of infinitely greater power, and this is used to say that the 8-D Moon Cell has 5 such layers of infinitely greater power above a typical 3-D universe. However, if we dig deeper I think it's clear that this is not a great representation of BB's relationship with these worlds.

First, Rin is explaining the difference between the Observed Universe and the Recorded Universe, and she does so first by explaining the difference in the passage of time. In the real world, time passes and can never be reversed. The past is set in stone. However, the worlds of the Moon Cell are just data. Inhabitants of these worlds might experience something akin to time from their own perspectives, but from a "higher dimensional perspective" such as BB who took control of the Moon Cell's core and is now in charge of the supercomputer that simulates these timelines, she can oversee the entire timeline like a flat scroll, or a book, where you can flip back and forth freely. She is not bound to the simulation of time within the worlds.

She explains this concretely in this section:

The Moon Cell’s Core is a concurrent world simulator where all possibilities are calculated and the past, present, and future all exist at the same time. In other words, it belongs to the recorded universe. BB has become that Moon Cell. She’s obtained a higher dimensional perspective. So — BB can handle the past and the future simultaneously.

Objections: This relationship isn't spatial dimensionality, of which there is none within the Moon Cell (it is digital, information), it is BB's distinct position outside of these timelines as the admin of a computer system which is running them as a simulation. This has nothing to do with Avalon or the Spherical Defense Wall that we currently use to tier some of these characters. What Rin is describing here is currently being used to model the guidebook statement for Avalon as meaning "three layers of R>F transcendence over the regular world" when in fact these two pieces of information couldn't be more unrelated.

Souls

Spoiler: Souls

Souls are an important topic here and I think they compose the most direct "counter-evidence" about seeing the term "higher-dimensional" as referring to Higher Infinities within Nasuverse, because we can concretely observe that they are higher-dimensional but not higher infinities.

Souls are definitively higher dimensional, they are called such many many times, and not only that, we know that they are precisely the same kind of higher-dimensional as the Moon Cell, as they are directly used to interact with it and create computers that can interact with it.

Spoiler: Higher-Dimensional Souls

Pseudo-Spiritron Computer
This is a super computer that was created using spiritrons made based on the Magic Theory of Pseudo-Spiritrons.
It is a machine that uses spiritrons created from a soul defined as a machine. The use of spiritrons makes high speed computation possible.
The Pseudo-Spiritron Computer is a parallel computation device that uses the soul (which resides in a higher dimension) as its axis to activate a “something” which lies in a parallel world.
The first version of the Pseudo-Spiritron Computer was completed in 1980.
Its processing power was so great that it even surpassed the expected processing power of a quantum computer that would finish being developed and built in 2030.
(Quantum computer development was frozen by the West Europe Plutocracy in 1999)
The United Nations led investigation unit first managed to infiltrate the Moon with the assistance of this Pseudo-Spiritron Computer.

In that case―――what do you think records my body and gives it form?" It is obvious. The soul.
It is not the law of the physical world, but something of the higher order, the record of all the bodies within the concept of the astral world.

Pseudo-Spiritron [concept]
Before, consciousness was thought to only manifest through a physical body. But magi managed to measure the position of “the soul” and redirect its output into a new world; the cyber world. They succeeded in allowing one to create a digital copy of themselves (a bunshin).
After this magi could transfer themselves into the digital world and carry out higher level information gathering.
The soul is a energy body that resides in a higher dimension, and is actually an unbelievably excellent information medium.

Soul [concept]
A soul resides in all life forms that are intelligent. It is spiritual life that is not part of any physical phenomenon.

The soul is a “will” that lies in another dimension, and that will occupies a body.

Defined as the substance that is the “true essence” of the soul, which is thought to reside in a higher dimension.

That unchanging thing is the “meaning” of the existence of the soul which lies in a higher dimension.

The families combined their secret techniques to develop the system to give structure and summon a Holy Grail capable of serving as a wish granting machine with the aim of enabling man to evolve to escape the bonds of the material body, and ascend to be higher dimension beings, or “souls” that do not require a physical body to serve as an medium or output device.

The Pseudo-Spiritron Computer is a parallel computation device that uses the soul (which resides in a higher dimension) as its axis to activate a “something” which lies in a parallel world.

I probably could have made my point with fewer scans, but I wanted to drive the point home: Souls are higher dimensional in Nasuverse, that much is beat into our heads over and over again. They're also not a physical phenomenon and thus shouldn't be thought of as having spatial dimensions. Moreover, we know that they do not have infinite power. This is a particularly crucial aspect. We are shown time and time again that servants, most of whom are Tier 6 or even lower, absorb many hundreds or even thousands of souls to increase their magic energy.

There are boundary fields that drain physical and mental strength from people within them, but the boundary field laid out over this school is on a completely different level.
This is a soul-eater. It is a Bloodfort that dissolves people within it and claims the souls that seep out.

"...It is as you suspect. I told you we are basically spirits. Therefore, our meals consist of souls and mental constituents.
As you subsist on meat, we subsist on souls and minds.
Our basic abilities do not change from such nourishment, but we do become tougher. In other words, our magical energy capacity increases."

"So the magical energy the Master provides isn't enough?"
"It's not that, but it doesn't hurt to have more. In war, if you lack strength, you make up for it with supplies, right?
It's a basic tactic for a Master to steal energy from the people around them. In that regard, this boundary field is very efficient."

"Of course. The Holy Grail merely summons these Servants, and it is the role of the Master to maintain them after that.
But that is possible only because the Holy Grail is aiding the Master. The magical energy of a magus is not enough to maintain a Servant. If one does not have a donor called the Holy Grail, their Servant will disappear."

"...I thought so. Then..."
"No. If you do not have enough, all you need do is compensate for that.
For Servants, furnishing magical energy is only an act of compensation. It is their true nature to consume souls. If their existence starts to fade, it can be replenished using other souls."

"Wha――"
Does that mean attacking random people like Shinji did?

"Exactly. Usually, they replenish enough magical energy from their Master.
But it's obvious that one gets more magical energy from many people rather than just one person, right?
To put it bluntly, a weak Master makes his Servant eat humans."
"――――"

"Servants transform human emotions and souls into magical energy.
That is the most efficient way to make your Servant more powerful. There are many Masters who kill humans as sacrifices for their Servant."

If you want to keep Saber, all you need to do is feed her souls."

Is she still not satisfied after consuming a heroic spirit with energy worth a few hundred thousand souls?

Also, Servants themselves are literally materialized souls.

"W-Wait...! So the Third Sorcery is the materialization of the soul!? But Servants are materialized souls too...!"

Objections: All of these quotes are regarding characters who we currently treat as Tier 6. They absorb souls on a regular basis, but the energy that these souls provide to them is not infinite, and the power they wield with this energy is mountain level. The point being, souls are not a higher infinity, and they are directly stated to be the same kind of higher dimensional as the Moon Cell.

Heroic Spirits

Spoiler: Heroic Spirits

Heroic Spirits are the true form of Servants that are summoned to Earth for Holy Grail wars. It is the case that Servants are weaker than true Heroic Spirits, as only a portion of their power comes to earth. However, these true forms are not infinitely more powerful, this much is spelled out fairly concretely within the verse.

1. Heroic Spirits are explicitly said to be an existence of a higher order, separate from the time axis, that transcends time and views past and present simultaneously (like in Rin's monologue.)

Heroic Spirits are a spiritual phenomenon of a higher order, and the Throne of Heroic Spirits exists in a dimension above this dimension.
They are an existence that transcend time.

Those who have become Heroic Spirits are freed from the constraints of time and are moved to the Throne of Heroes, existing to the outside of the World.

2. Sakura Matou, with the Black Shadow (antagonist of the Heaven's Feel route of Fate/stay night), was said to be on the level of pure Heroic Spirits, not just servants. She is currently Tier 6-C.

She's covering her body with her own dark magical energy.
―――The amount and the presence of her magical energy is beyond human capabilities.
She's at the same level as pure heroic spirits, the Counter Guardians.

Is she still not satisfied after consuming a heroic spirit with energy worth a few hundred thousand souls? (This was after she absorbed Gilgamesh)

3. Counter Guardians (of the Counter Force) are actual bonafide Heroic Spirits, summoned by the World.

What can be thought of as a heroic spirit’s “main body” resides in the Throne of Heroes, and can only be summoned by the World. A Servant is merely an “emanation” or pseudo-copy of a heroic spirit’s main body, summoned by ritual.

4. During this time, she was said to have 100,000,000 magical energy to Rin's 300. This was because she had access to the Holy Grail.

Sakura's magical energy is infinite.
Her capacity reaches a hundred million.
To Rin, whose capacity is a mere three hundred, Sakura is a monster.

5. This 100,000,000 pool of magical energy was based on collecting the magical energy from six Servants that were summoned. So the energy level that was said to be equal to a true Heroic Spirit was only a few times higher than a Servant.

"You should not be surprised. The Holy Grail is a filtration device that turns the soul into pure magical energy.
Yes, it should let you grant any wish. It contains more magical energy than a magus could ever use within his lifetime.
That is why it is better with more sacrifices. It should be omnipotent with six Servants as sacrifices.
Five Servants have filled the Holy Grail. Only one more is needed for the omnipotent grail they sought."

"―――Then... Then only the Masters can handle the Holy Grail. If it is a repository of pure magical energy, only magi can use it.
...Yes. If the Master is an excellent magus, it――――"

In conclusion, this is yet another case where a higher dimensional being (or rather, a character said directly to be similar in power to one) is shown to be not have a higher infinity level of power, as she had only absorbed seven servants (one of whom was said to be worth 100,000 souls).

I've been told that some of the true heroic spirits have potentially universal feats, which may render this objection moot, but at the moment most of those feats haven't been properly analyzed because all of these characters default to Low 1-C due to the Avalon scaling. My main point isn't to claim that there's no info in the verse that could scale true heroic spirits highly, just to show that despite their higher-dimensional nature, they are not intended to be Low 1-C by default due to transcending something. They are within an order of magnitude of power of their servant counterparts.

Objections: Essentially, true Heroic Spirits are directly described as being within a single order of magnitude of power as their Servant counterparts, despite this, they are directly said to exist in a higher dimension that transcends time, viewing time in a similar manner to BB.

Conclusion

In conclusion, we currently treat Avalon as 6-D and the Moon Cell as 8-D on a very poor basis. For Avalon it is because one of the several guidebooks that describes it says it blocks communications up to the sixth dimension, with this concept and ability being entirely absent outside of that guidebook and with no explanation given as to the nature of these dimensions. For Moon Cell it is because BB encountered a wall that "cuts through eight dimensions" blocking her from entering the Core, which is stated to be above seven layers of the Moon Cell (and thus, the wall is probably described as such due to it guarding the Core, it "blocks off the eight layer"). Both of these statements are regarded as multiple levels of infinity due to a monologue by Rin which, in the context it was given, is very clearly explaining a difference in the perception of time (answering a question about the difference between the Recorded Universe and the Observed Universe), and explaining BB's position in the Core as giving her an atemporal view of the digital worlds that the Moon Cell simulates. The Moon Cell, meanwhile, is routinely described as non-physical.

Moreover, we have multiple instances where higher-dimensional things in the verse do not have infinitely great power, and in fact wield a comparably modest level of power. Souls are regularly called higher dimensional and yet need to be absorbed in the thousands by Servants who only wield sub-planetary levels of power, and they very specifically are the same kind of higher-dimensional as the Moon Cell, being used to create computers that can interact with it. There is also the true heroic spirits which transcend time and exist in a dimension above our own, and yet Sakura obtained a power level comparable to them despite only absorbing 6 or 7 servants, and wielded a pool of magic energy that was very distinctly not infinitely greater than Rin, a normal human mage who is currently Tier 9.

Therefore, the dozens of profiles that are currently Low 1-C due to Avalon or the Moon Cell are tiered on a fairly egregious and extremely generous overestimation of the evidence we have, and thus should be downgraded to the next best feat that they actually scale to. There are quite a few feats that have never been critical evaluated due to being overshadowed by the Avalon and Moon Cell silliness, and they should be the basis for these power levels rather than specious dimensional tiering from a single fleeting reference in a guide book or a throw-away line about a wall.

 

[Deagonx]

I'm going to tag some staff members who either participated in the last revision or who may be interested.

@Firestorm808 @DarkGrath @Ultima_Reality @Qawsedf234 @DontTalkDT @Eficiente @Antvasima @DarkDragonMedeus @Maverick_Zero_X @FinePoint

 

[Ultima_Reality]

I'm going to tag some staff members who either participated in the last revision or who may be interested.

@Ultima_Reality

I'm not reading allat.

(I'm busy today, so, will read through this when I set aside some time later)

 

[Deagonx]

No worries, I appreciate you putting it on your to-do list.

 

[TISSG7Redgrave]

Ngl looking at this i want to give a bit of two cents.

Firstly just because its not in the guidebook doesn't mean 6D is gone from avalon. It's just probs not worth mentioning because the important is: heal, defense, can't be broken by anyone.

For Moon Cell I would say I get the idea as it seems to just be layers before Moon Cell itself and that they are simulated universes but saying about it being a "perfect sphere" kinda means nothing for this. I can say maybe not taking 8D moon cell is one thing and I would say it could be fine but if we take the simulated universes which can be infinite and BB having a higher POV that's 5D already anyway.

I would honestly say the thing you should focus on is the 8D layers to Moon Cell thing instead of everything else because nothing here really debunks the higher dimensional stuff. I can only see downgrading moon cell to 5D, Avalon is still 6D (and afaik even with mystic codes for the servants true power, nothing stated Avalon could be breached afaik) and that's about it.

Just my two cents don't ask me more cuz I'm dumb. Later.

 

[Deagonx]

Firstly just because its not in the guidebook doesn't mean 6D is gone from avalon.

I agree. I am just pointing out the fact that Avalon has four guidebook entries and only one references "dimensions" without explaining what kind of dimensions they are, and that this ability isn't described as such in any of the source material. This is not intended, by itself, to conclude that the scaling is wrong, I am just pointing out that the amount of evidence for this is quite thin (as compared to, say, if it had been said multiple times, if it had been said in the source material rather than just a guide book, if it had explained the nature of these dimensions).

If you were to ask me whether I thought this guidebook reference was enough to qualify Avalon as being Low 1-C I'd say no, currently it is based on connecting it to the Rin monologue in Section 3, but I feel that we have very little basis for connecting these two pieces of information as they're offered in completely different pieces of media in very different contexts, and there's nothing really connecting them.

For Moon Cell I would say I get the idea as it seems to just be layers before Moon Cell itself and that they are simulated universes but saying about it being a "perfect sphere" kinda means nothing for this.

I agree it's a rather minor point. Not every single thing mentioned is meant to be the whole she-bang, but IMO even minor issues are worth bringing forward when presenting a thorough case, as I see evidence as being cumulative.

nothing here really debunks the higher dimensional stuff.

The "Souls" section is what debunks the higher dimensional aspect, as it shows that "higher dimensional" does not equate to qualitative superiority, showing that the leading interpretation of Rin's statement is erroneous in the way it's being applied to the rest of the verse.

 

[FinePoint]

This is a fairly long and complicated revision of a verse I am completely unfamiliar with.
I would be willing to read through and attempt to understand it if you are unable to gather enough input from supporters, but until then I feel as if my input simply isn't worth the effort, my apologies.

 

[Deagonx]

No worries, thanks for checking it out.

 

[Firestorm808]

Reiterating my stance from last time:

I do not see how Avalon meets the requirements of being a qualitatively superior realm, either being infinitely larger or infinitely more powerful than a standard Tier 2 Structure.

The same thing goes for the different realms of the Moon Cell. It's not elaborated on how we got to each of the alleged 5 levels of infinity larger than the 3-D realm

 

[Paul_Frank]

Received permission from Ultima

A lot of these are already on the last thread and not changed at all

Objections: In a nutshell, many characters in the verse scale to Low 1-C essentially because one of the four guidebooks that describes Avalon's ability does so by saying it "blocks multidimensional communication up to the sixth" with no expansion on what those dimensions are. Avalon's ability is never described that way in any of the actual source material, and the three other guidebooks that describe this ability simply say it blocks out physical interference. We have dozens of characters treated as Low 1-C because of this.

Firstly, it's not described that way in "the actual source material" because it's used a total of one single time. It is described repeatedly as not just shutting out physical interference, but then it goes on to mention interference from parallel worlds, etc. You're correct that they don't elaborate right then and there on what dimensions mean, because they didn't really have any reason to, they mention things being higher dimensional a lot in that era, and eventually an explanation of what that actually is is given. Also the number of times they mention higher d in regards to it is a weird point? This is a weird objection overall

Objections: Essentially, this supercomputer that contains digital worlds is treated as 8-D because of a single line from BB saying that a "perfectly spherical spirit particle defense wall that cuts through eight dimensions" blocked her from getting into the Moon Cell's core, which has seven layers below it and thus that is likely the true meaning. This quote is the sole reference to anything "8-dimensional" in the Moon Cell, and it is certainly not spatial because this is describing a digital world made of numbers.

No, it's completely impossible to even remotely argue it meant "uhh actually it's just cutting through layers" not only, as shown a few times on the previous thread, does the JP just not allow that to be true, but as I also said there, logic doesn't even allow that to be true, you can't protect the core by cutting through 7 layers and it with a wall, the wall has to go around the core to block it off.

The idea of it not being spatial because its in the Mooncell is also dumb, because you yourself have seen the several scans outright saying that the Mooncell is equally as real as outside reality

For instance, this "data" can affect reality in several ways, including power gained within leaving it. It merging with and overwriting a physical location and then digging througu the planet (CCC event). The entire basis of all the Extra games is using this "data" to rewrite all of reality outside, despite the explicit protections reality has against being warped like that, hell, Leo even says that in some ways, it's more real than outside

If that is the case, this world is in some ways more real than the real world it represents. How about you guys? What are your thoughts on this?

Further we know even more concretely this isn't true, because the Mooncell isn't true data in the sense that we know, it's spiritrons. Saint Quartz, a physical object, is composed of spiritrons, being called a Quasi or Psuedo Spiritron crystal, pseudo spiritrons are what are used by everyone when doing things with spiritrons usually, including stuff like Rayshifting, where the physical body is split into them as well, but let's continue.

Back Alley Alliance says they can take any shape of size

Spiritron
Although they may morph into any variety of shapes and sizes

Crest of the Wandering Star also shows us that this "information" or spiritrons, are equal to what you think of normal physical matter like in importance, if not more so

This is a passive skill that allows Altera to absorb the lives, buildings, and concepts she destroys as spiritron-information, making her grow even larger

Altera possesses the ability to also break buildings and beings down into spiritrons and it causes her to physically grow in size and power, further showing that these Spiritron worlds aren't some simple computer data. You see, spiritrons compose things outside of the SE.RA.PH as well, much like they compose the worlds within.

Furthermore, BB as a whole disproves this whole "just data therefore fake" argument. BB, a servant made of data sent by the Mooncell, exists in physical reality in Chaldea with us, caused the Summer event using power from the Mooncell (by warping space and time in hawaii to make it constantly loop), and overall is equal to if not stronger than non data servants, something impossible if your logic of data therefore not spatial/real is correct

Overall the idea that the Mooncell is only data incomparable to baseline reality is absurd and only works if you ignore everything to do with it.

Further, this wall is described as "perfectly spherical." Spheres are three-dimensional, the same way that circles are two-dimensional. An eight-dimensional sphere makes as much sense as an eight dimensional circle. A four dimensional analogue is called a glome

I'm not going to lie to you, I didn't even know that glome was a term. Now go find me the name of an eight dimensional circular shape and argue "well why didn't Nasu use this really unknown term rather than just sphere, which everyone knows and would be able to understand that it means it's round". Also, the sphere isn't what's said to be 8 dimensional, the barrier cuts through that many, meaning that main a present to cut through

Objections: This relationship isn't spatial dimensionality, of which there is none within the Moon Cell (it is digital, information), it is BB's distinct position outside of these timelines as the admin of a computer system which is running them as a simulation. This has nothing to do with Avalon or the Spherical Defense Wall that we currently use to tier some of these characters. What Rin is describing here is currently being used to model the guidebook statement for Avalon as meaning "three layers of R>F transcendence over the regular world" when in fact these two pieces of information couldn't be more unrelated.

I've addressed the data point above, but this is so much worse. So to begin, it is 100%, certainly, completely impossible to even remotely begin to argue that the only reason behind the higher d mentions is "BB is above the data therefore can just read the timelines." To begin with possibly the most damning part, the Mooncell has this same view over timelines outside of itself.

Firstly, as I mentioned, it affects the outside world, the way it does this is by observing and changing the timeline to one where your wish is granted

Holy Grail [Circumstances]
This had once been a term pointing out to the "wish granting machine that could grant any wish", but in Extra it's referring to the "right to use the Moon Cell."
If you browse through the vast records of Earth simulations stored in the Moon Cell, you are sure to find the Earth with the future you desire.
All you, you who have earned the right to use the Moon Cell, have to do is tell it this:
"Recreate my ideal future."

If it were just able to have a transcendental view over its own timelines and not the outside world, then frankly, this level of reality alteration would be completely impossible, especially given the World actively fighting said things, to the point where it crushes anything vaguely interfering like Projections.

To quote myself from the other thread as well

Regardless, the fact it does affect the outside when wished on rings true, regardless of how long you think it takes, showing its not only the data it can affect. Its also explained via a combination of the mats and FSF, that if it didn't stop itself, it'd be constantly affecting the world, see here

An observation device must be fair. If it is to observe, there must be nothing unseen. Thus, it required capabilities for knowing everything about the Earth.
To record all things without bias, it needed performance greater than that of an observation device.

And so, it had made a giant leap in evolution.

It had enhanced its functions to the point where it went from making observations to surveillance, even understanding the workings of the planet.

The greater its enhancements, the more complicated its administration policy.
It created many terminals and even made artificial intelligences to manage functions for each section.
(These were later utilized for the NPCs and advanced AIs of the Holy Grail War)
However, it firmly refused to install an artificial intelligence for itself.

The observer must not have a mind.
For the observer to have a mind would result in the meaning of things being decided by the observer.
Thus, it kept to maintaining its absolute objectivity as an eye, doing so while always dismantling the emerging semblances of sapience that it had incorporated to administrate its functions.

So it remains impartial because otherwise it would determine things, what does this mean exactly? Well, this is explained via interviews with Nasu, and FSF, with Zelretch

“This axis is wrong… these (ruby text: light polarization lines) lines will be annihilated too…”
When the man slipped his finger into the sky, the heavenly bodies displayed on the surrounding walls began to revolve.
“Oh, this cut-off isn’t so… no, it’s the worst. That damned giant spider will wake up. It’s a century too early to face that.”
Then, as if to match his words, the pages in the book hovering in front of the man turned with a flutter, inscribing multifarious information in real-time.
The thickness of the book was about that of a standard encyclopedia.
Regardless, as the man guided his finger through the air, thousands— tens of thousands of pages were born and erased.
After continuing this activity again and again, the old man muttered as if in boredom

But if Zelretch was observing, it'd become true

As seen here, the mooncell is intentionally nerfing itself so as to not simply determine what is true. In FSF, this is shown to result in worlds being changed constantly, or destroyed as Zelretch observes others (shown as the information on the pages). This is corroborated further by the eyes of the serial bomber in KnK, and Musashi

You might as well say that this is an extremely unique set of mystic eyes, which confines the naturally infinite futures into “just a single” result.

And we see that this is true, much like with the Calculation ability of the serial bomber. By determining one thing to be true, they inherently negate all other possible branches of that event, confining things to pass as they've seen, before returning to being immutable and infinite possibilities.

This is the power of Zelretch, and a power the Mooncell wants to avoid. If one were to argue that the Mooncell is just data and can only affect data and doesn't have power transcendeding reality, this wouldn't be a concern, however it is, showing that this simply can't be true. Rin says as much herself as well.

That’s what the Moon Cell Core is. …this wishing device has obtained a will, and determined the “future.” That future is the annihilation of mankind. The outside world is proceeding with that future of annihilation as its set history

This is because as Rani says, the Mooncell core, which observes reality, is higher dimensional

The Moon Cell is the eyes of god. The photon-based recording medium in the Core is a higher dimensional existence. The Moon Cell Core knows how the human race will end. But there is no valuation of any kind in that result. The Moon Cell has within it no basis to judge the options, how to create a better future — to judge between good and evil, you could say. This is the management of the Earth was left to humanity. Or, why a third party overlooked it and did not intervene. But, if an AI with a clear basis for judgment were inserted, the Moon Cell would select the best future according to a single intelligence. — which is to say, the erasure of mankind. If they are to be ultimately destroyed, it is because now they must be destroyed

As Rani says, the core of the Mooncell is higher d, and from that perspective it has already seen the end of humanity (remember, higher dimensions can see the lower ones as flat and see all of time at once) because of this, should an AI take control, it will realize that since humanity will always die out, they might as well die now. Further, this alone disproves the idea that it can only affect the data within and only has that perspective over the data, it specifically says this in reference to the outside world, and says it has already seen how humanity will end, it has the higher d perspective over the outside world too. If it did not have this perspective over the outside, there would be no reason to hinder its own growth to avoid selecting outcomes like Zelretch does

Further this whole "uhh its just talking about BB's perspective gg" is wrong as well. As mentioned in the previous thread, thats not at all what the text says, but further as I've said, that part of the text isn't talking specifically about BB, but rather in general terms, it's a generic example to describe it to us. Rin says that it is "何次元か上の知覚/a perspective from some dimension above (or a higher dimension in other words)" then goes onto, in very generic terms, describe how higher dimensions work, giving the whole spiel about how when viewed from dimensions above, lower dimensions are like stories or whatever else, giving the very blatant r>f, and then after that's done, she finally relates it back to us by saying the Mooncell has it (something Rani also says) and then finally saying that by becoming the Mooncell, BB does now too

Objections: All of these quotes are regarding characters who we currently treat as Tier 6. They absorb souls on a regular basis, but the energy that these souls provide to them is not infinite, and the power they wield with this energy is mountain level. The point being, souls are not a higher infinity, and they are directly stated to be the same kind of higher dimensional as the Moon Cell.

So, this is funny, but we're directly told that souls have infinite power, via the 3rd magic.

Materialization of the soul, in other words, the magic that realizes true immortality. When accomplished, the practitioner will acquire an unlimited source of magical energy due to the soul becoming analogous to a perpetual motion machine. This is the Magic of the Einzbern lineage, and the Holy Grail War was established to acquire this Magic.

So when the soul is able to exist independent of the body, it is able to exercise its full power, as a higher dimensional planar which has unlimited energy. The reason then, that eating souls gives a finite boost is actually said very directly in the series.

There is a limit to the energy any given body can contain. This is highlighted directly in the Rin vs Sakura fight. One can not exceed their own capacity, even when a source much larger exists,

Because mana is the magical energy of "that space" which fills the atmosphere, magi can use it freely.
…Of course, the amount that can be utilized directly corresponds to the capacity of the magus – which is to say, the number of magic circuits they have.

That is why superior magi excel at drawing magical energy from the world.
It's like a filter.
A magus turns his body into a filter, sucks up the mana from the world around him, and changes it into something he can use.
This filter is what we call a Magic Circuit.

This is the talent one is born with, and the number of the Magic Circuits within you is determined the moment you are born.
A normal human being does not have many Magic Circuits.
To begin with, there are always very few.
That is why magi pile them up generation after generation, making their children more suitable to use magic.
I hear some families go too far and increase the number of Magic Circuits by selective breeding.

Mana or in general non internally generated magical energy is taken in, and converted to a usable form (Od), this has a hard cap determined by your number of circuits.

•Magic‌ ‌powered‌ ‌by‌ ‌the‌ ‌Greater‌ ‌Source‌
The‌ ‌Greater‌ ‌Source‌ ‌is‌ ‌the‌ ‌life‌ ‌force‌ ‌of‌ ‌the‌ ‌planet,‌ ‌expressed‌ ‌as‌ ‌the‌ ‌life‌ ‌force‌ ‌of‌ ‌the‌ ‌atmosphere‌ ‌and‌ ‌other‌ ‌parts‌ ‌of‌ ‌nature.‌ ‌It‌ ‌is‌ ‌the‌ ‌life‌ ‌force‌ ‌that‌ ‌permeates‌ ‌the‌ ‌outer‌ ‌world.‌ ‌
The‌ ‌nature‌ ‌of‌ ‌it‌ ‌is‌ ‌the‌ ‌same‌ ‌as‌ ‌the‌ ‌Lesser‌ ‌Source,‌ ‌but‌ ‌the‌ ‌amount‌ ‌is‌ ‌orders‌ ‌of‌ ‌magnitude‌ ‌greater‌ ‌than‌ ‌that‌ ‌of‌ ‌the‌ ‌Lesser‌ ‌Source.‌ ‌However,‌ ‌the‌ ‌amount‌ ‌of‌ ‌the‌ ‌Greater‌ Source‌ ‌that‌ ‌a‌ ‌magus‌ ‌can‌ ‌convert‌ ‌at‌ ‌one‌ ‌time‌ ‌is‌ ‌limited‌ ‌by‌ ‌one’s‌ ‌magic‌ circuits,‌ ‌so‌ ‌no‌ ‌matter‌ ‌how‌ ‌much‌ ‌mana‌ ‌is‌ ‌available,‌ ‌it‌ ‌cannot‌ ‌be‌ ‌used‌ ‌without‌ ‌limit.‌ ‌
There‌ ‌is‌ ‌also‌ ‌a‌ ‌limit‌ ‌to‌ ‌the‌ ‌amount‌ ‌of‌ ‌energy‌ ‌someone‌ ‌can‌ ‌hold‌ ‌at‌ ‌once,‌ ‌so‌ ‌it‌ ‌is‌ ‌not‌ ‌possible‌ ‌to‌ ‌convert‌ ‌the‌ ‌Greater‌ ‌Source‌ ‌to‌ ‌mystic‌ ‌energy‌ ‌in‌ ‌advance‌ ‌and‌ ‌build‌ ‌up‌ ‌a‌ ‌massive‌ ‌reserve.‌

In Rin and Sakura's case, they are then able to simply repeatedly output their max capacity because they're connected to a constant source of mana which replenishes (infinite worlds and the grail respectively), in the case of absorbing souls, this just isn't the case. When absorbing souls for energy, they're essentially breaking it down to convert some to magical energy, if said magical energy exceeded their capacity, unlike Rin and Sakura, it's not something they can keep around and channel, and instead, it'd just disappear, as the soul passes on when seperated from the anchoring of the body, except when under the third magic.

Objections: Essentially, true Heroic Spirits are directly described as being within a single order of magnitude of power as their Servant counterparts, despite this, they are directly said to exist in a higher dimension that transcends time, viewing time in a similar manner to BB.

Okay this section is something else. So no, Heroic spirits aren't ever described as a single order of magnitude greater than servants (hell, Prillya Gilgamesh is an order of magnitude stronger than Salter explicitly, and is still a servant). To begin with, using the logic of "well the grail had 6 sacrifices and had a finite magical power, which is only X times Rin's, therefore Heroic spirits aren't infinitely stronger" is really odd. The grail clearly just, doesn't acquire magical energy in any linear or really normal sound way, given that the jump from 6 to 7 becomes "can freely overwrite all of reality and do literally anything and potentially help reach a path to the root", which just can't be achieved with any finite amount of energy at all.

But besides that all, let's go after the root of the issue here, The heroic spirit comparison. Sakura being said to be on the level of a "pure Heroic spirit, a counter guardian" is overall a really odd statement, firstly, counter guardians are not full Heroic spirit level, they are also summoned into containers (that's why the ritual to summon them uses containers as a basis), further, they have a variable power level, not a set one to compare to

The Counter Force is a formless spiral of power. It adjusts its scale based on the target that needs to be obliterated. The Counter Force will always appear with a status above the target, enough to absolutely secure a victory.

Even worse however, is that this numerical game doesn't work because even sans higher d things, full Heroic Spirits are just outright tier 2. 7 of them can take Primate Murder, they are able to participate in Solomon, fighting the demon pillars (and Goetia if you use the movie), with them all also being able to fight on equal footing with Goddess Rhongomyniad, who is relative to Grand Servant Hassan, who is able to fight beasts, which have tier 2 feats themselves (Kama for instance), there's also stuff like Amaterasu, etc, in general, there's a reason why the verse was previously tier 2 before it was tier 1, even before using Mooncell stuff it was still tier 2. Last time it wasn't at least low 2-C was pre Ooku

 

[Deagonx]

I'd like to prevent this from becoming too dense for people to read, I'll limit my response to the most crucial points and not engage with stuff like the proposed justification for why the "six dimensional communication" thing for Avalon is only referenced in 1 out of 4 guidebooks, since that's largely subjective speculating and the debating about it wouldn't really go anywhere.

The idea of it not being spatial because its in the Mooncell is also dumb, because you yourself have seen the several scans outright saying that the Mooncell is equally as real as outside reality

For instance, this "data" can affect reality in several ways, including power gained within leaving it. It merging with and overwriting a physical location and then digging througu the planet (CCC event). The entire basis of all the Extra games is using this "data" to rewrite all of reality outside, despite the explicit protections reality has against being warped like that, hell, Leo even says that in some ways, it's more real than outside

I'll clarify this is a misunderstanding of my argument, when I point out that the Moon Cell isn't spatial and is just data, I am not making the claim that it is incapable of influencing the reality outside the Moon Cell. It certainly has magical power and has the ability to affect the real world. That information is not a problem for my argument, I am just pointing out that the digital worlds of the Moon Cell are explicitly not physical.

Further we know even more concretely this isn't true, because the Mooncell isn't true data in the sense that we know, it's spiritrons.

This is a misunderstanding. Spiritrons are defined as the "true essence" of the soul. Not everything within the Moon Cell is spiritrons, just the people. However, this very concretely is data. This is the description of what it means when Magi transform themselves into Spiritrons.

To be a true hacker, one must have the rare ability to clearly imagine the nature of one’s body virtually as a sequence of numbers

Firstly, as I mentioned, it affects the outside world, the way it does this is by observing and changing the timeline to one where your wish is granted

Almost, but not quite. It doesn't literally change the timeline, it can influence the world to a limited degree in order to grant your wish, but it cannot change the past. This is the description given of the Moon Cell's ability to grant wishes:

For example, if you were to wish “Make all the girls on Earth my little sisters.” In about ten years or so societies on Earth would have changed to be so. Or alternatively, all of Earth would be managed and directed to work in order to make a device to allow one to experience that dream realistically. There’s nothing that the human race can’t realize as long as it’s within the scope of human imagination. No matter what kind of fantasy, no matter how unrealistic, there is a way to realize and experience it.

I'll reiterate that I am not denying that the Moon Cell has the ability to influence the outside world, but it is clearly not infinitely great and is not as far reaching as you claim. In fact, the source material is very explicit that the work-around the Moon Cell will use for tasks that it cannot accomplish is to have technology made to experience it.

As Rani says, the core of the Mooncell is higher d, and from that perspective it has already seen the end of humanity (remember, higher dimensions can see the lower ones as flat and see all of time at once) because of this, should an AI take control, it will realize that since humanity will always die out, they might as well die now

Again, you're just a bit off here. Yes they're saying the Moon Cell is higher dimensional (though my post proves this does not mean infinitely more powerful), but the reason it knows the future is not because of this, the Moon Cell cannot actually view the physical future of the world due to being higher dimensional, rather, it can predict the future with extreme accuracy. What you're saying runs contrary to the basic function of the Moon Cell. If it were the case that the Moon Cell could literally view the future of the Observed Universe, it's function as a prediction device would be rendered nonsensical, the very concept of prediction is impossible. What Rin tells us in the monologue in the OP is that the observed universe simply doesn't function this way. BB can only view the Recorded Universe this way because it's all digital, there is no "time" in the Moon Cells worlds in the physical sense.

Moon Cell is a computational device that accurately simulates all of Earth and its life forms, and can even accurately predict the future.

So, this is funny, but we're directly told that souls have infinite power, via the 3rd magic.
Materialization of the soul, in other words, the magic that realizes true immortality. When accomplished, the practitioner will acquire an unlimited source of magical energy due to the soul becoming analogous to a perpetual motion machine. This is the Magic of the Einzbern lineage, and the Holy Grail War was established to acquire this Magic.
So when the soul is able to exist independent of the body, it is able to exercise its full power, as a higher dimensional planar which has unlimited energy. The reason then, that eating souls gives a finite boost is actually said very directly in the series.

Not quite. This statement does not support the claim that souls inherently have infinite power. Rather, it says that through the magic that realizes true immortality the soul becomes analogous to a perpetual motion machine. This suggests that prior to this magic being applied, it is not a perpetual motion machine. This absolutely does not tell us that souls have infinite power.

More importantly, there is a wealth of evidence to the contrary. If souls contained infinite power, Servants would not need to devour thousands up them to put up Tier 6 feats. One would be enough, but it's very clearly the case that souls do not contain infinite power. Your statement that the 3rd Magic simply "allows souls to exercise their full power" isn't supported by your scan.

In Rin and Sakura's case, they are then able to simply repeatedly output their max capacity because they're connected to a constant source of mana which replenishes (infinite worlds and the grail respectively), in the case of absorbing souls, this just isn't the case. When absorbing souls for energy, they're essentially breaking it down to convert some to magical energy, if said magical energy exceeded their capacity, unlike Rin and Sakura, it's not something they can keep around and channel, and instead, it'd just disappear, as the soul passes on when seperated from the anchoring of the body, except when under the third magic.

Sorry, but you're basically making this up. Nothing in the verse suggests that when souls are absorbed that they simply take some pittance of power from the infinite reservoir that is any single soul and then the rest disappears or passes on. In fact, what we are told about souls suggests this is quite blatantly untrue. Gilgamesh was directly stated to have power equal to a few hundred thousand souls:

Is she still not satisfied after consuming a heroic spirit with energy worth a few hundred thousand souls?

But besides that all, let's go after the root of the issue here, The heroic spirit comparison. Sakura being said to be on the level of a "pure Heroic spirit, a counter guardian" is overall a really odd statement, firstly, counter guardians are not full Heroic spirit level, they are also summoned into containers (that's why the ritual to summon them uses containers as a basis), further, they have a variable power level, not a set one to compare to

Two things, first is that Counter Guardians are true heroic spirits, it is explicitly stated that only the world can summon the main body (whereas Servants are summoned by ritual).

What can be thought of as a heroic spirit’s “main body” resides in the Throne of Heroes, and can only be summoned by the World.

Second, Counter Guardians don't themselves have variable power, the Counter Force does, this is an important distinction. The varying power of the Counter Force isn't like some random sliding scale for the individual Guardian summoned, it is the level of response the Force itself uses, which sometimes doesn't even involve summoning a Heroic Spirit. Also, from Garden of Avalon:

——————“The difference between a Heroic Spirit and a Guardian,
although they are both spirits of the throne, a Heroic Spirit is summoned by
people's hope, whilst a Guardian is summoned by people's despair.”

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

Got permission for a comment from @FinePoint

There is an apparent violation of the discussion rules which is something to take note of, especially with Sections One to Three using recycled arguments:

Nasuverse Rules​ Do not attempt to downgrade the tier 1 ratings of Nasuverse characters. Its cosmology, consistency, and ratings have been debated heavily over the years, and attempts at downgrades have frequently been rejected before (Examples include: this, this and this. Threads that compile evidence for the tiers can be seen here and here). Debates over this have grown tiring, and proven to be a waste of time for all parties involved.

I will provide a refutation to the main points in a manner that I hope will have both comprehensiveness and brevity.

one of the four guidebooks that describes Avalon's ability does so by saying it "blocks multidimensional communication up to the sixth" with no expansion on what those dimensions are

Spoiler: Avalon

The six dimension statement is mentioned in "Fate/Complete Material III", one of the guidebooks you are actually using as a source; so you mentioned three guidebooks overall in this section not four. The objections about something not being mentioned an arbitrary number of times, or something being elaborated elsewhere instead of immediately, aren't of siginifance.

Despite the claim that the ability is entirely absent outside the guidebooks, the guidebook statements are actually an elaboration of an ability Avalon demonstrated in the source material:

Furthermore, there is no reference to interpret the "sixth dimension" except as a 6D world. The same source material refers to the "third dimension" as a 3D world:

And so does CCC:

From this higher dimension, the third dimension looks like a flat scroll. Er, if the three-dimensional world is a world drawn in a book, and then if you jumped inside the book and came out outside the book, something like that?

Also something important: You missed an other guidebook statement which once again mentions that Avalon brings its target to a higher dimension:

The Occasionally Hazy Wall of Chalk A Defense Skill that allows one to arbitrarily put an Invincibility Effect on someone among their party. Their NP also goes up a little. In accordance with its name of how it is called ‘Occasionally Hazy’, the target temporarily shifts out of the time axis in order to avoid attacks. If the rank was higher, the target could even phase through attacks, among other things, from a higher dimension. That principle is close to a certain Defensive Noble Phantasm that is used to target its own user. ~FGO material I

So a weaker version of Avalon's ability would shift the target out of the time axis, while the proper Avalon brings them to a higher dimension.

The Moon Cell has 7 layers below the core, so the odd phrasing of "cuts through eight dimensions" sounds more like it blocks off the eight layer, the Moon Cell's core.

Spoiler: The Mooncell

As mentioned in previous CRT regarding this argument, your formulation doesn't make any sense unless you are claiming that the barrier is "cutting through" the Mooncell's core, in which case it has damaged the core and is doing the opposite of protection.
"Cuts through eight dimensions" ≠ "Blocks off the eighth layer". The latter is an unjustified distortion of the quote that completely changes the meaning, and the core is never described as a layer.

Take note that this takes place in CCC, and BB and the barrier were located in the Far Side which doesn't have layers.

Far Side of the Moon This is the setting of CCC. If one thinks of the Moon as being perfectly divided into two, the side facing the Earth is the Near Side, and the opposite side, which cannot be observed from Earth, is the Far Side. Fate/EXTRA takes place on the Near Side, and the player progresses from the first layer to the seventh layer, and finally on to the Moon Cell‘s core. CCC takes place on the Far Side (no layers though), and the player similarly aims to reach the Moon Cell‘s core. Although the path is different, the goal is the same; Moon Cell‘s core.

The argument cannot be accurately described as coherent or valid. There are no layers to block to begin with.

and it is certainly not spatial because this is describing a digital world made of numbers.

Spoiler: Space in Digital World

The arguments in Section Two and Three largely rest on the claim that since Fate/Extra takes place in a digital world, there is no concept of spatial dimensions. Not only is this non-sequitur, but it is plainly false.

BB states that the digital world contains space-time:

BB states that Passionlip's storage space is a four-dimensional pocket (how is that the case if space doesn't exist? isn't a three-dimensional space supposedly non-existent?), and the materials state that its capacity is infinite [This is further evidence of qualitative superiority by the way]:

02 - Breast Valley A simple trash box. Has the function of storing away and safeguarding unneeded data files. It's a garbage can. In Passionlip's case, the icon is set right in the middle of her chest for some reason. To put it frankly, an imaginary space pocket into which you can put anything as long as it's as trash. If it is dust data that Passionlip has crushed, she can stow away an infinite amount, regardless of capacity. ~Fate/EXTRA CCC - Passionlip (Alter Ego) Matrix

BB mocks characters for not having more than three spatial dimensions:

Kiara's recreation of Mooncell's digital environment; SE.RA.PH, is stated to contain higher spatial dimensions and higher temporal dimensions:

Further, this wall is described as "perfectly spherical." Spheres are three-dimensional, the same way that circles are two-dimensional. An eight-dimensional sphere makes as much sense as an eight dimensional circle. A four dimensional analogue is called a glome.

This is a weird objection. What apparent outer shape are you proposing higher-dimensional beings and objects in fiction should mandatorily have?

This has nothing to do with Avalon or the Spherical Defense Wall that we currently use to tier some of these characters.

Spoiler: Qualitatively Superior Higher Dimensions

Rin states that the perception of the recorded universe is over many dimensions, and then explained the concept of higher dimensional existence and higher dimensional perspective in general using an analogy of R>F over 3D space, and then stated that BB obtained a higher dimensional perspective.

The perception of the recorded universe is over many dimensions…think of it as a higher dimensional existence. From this higher dimension, the third dimension looks like a flat scroll. Er, if the three-dimensional world is a world drawn in a book, and then if you jumped inside the book and came out outside the book, something like that? And then you’re able to look down on any point in your past, present, and future from when you were inside the book, as a record — that’s the higher dimensional perspective. [...] BB has become that Moon Cell. She’s obtained a higher dimensional perspective.

The general description provided by Rin is applicable to BB and everyone who has a higher dimensional perspective, including over each of those many dimensions.

Furthermore, qualitative superiority in the Nasuverse is fulfilled through two methods: R>F (explanation by Rin mentioned in the thread, and explanation about the status of being an Observer in Zelretch's ability), and the acknowledgment that 4D space is able to contain infinite 3D volume:

The universe hosting infinite demons Kiara holds within her is stated to be something that cannot be encompassed by a hyperdimensional cube, so higher than 4D space:

Not even a 4D cube'd be enough to give us a good visual representation of that. Who had the big idea of letting her build a universe inside her belly? ~Koyanskaya of Darkness dialogue

the energy that these souls provide to them is not infinite

Spoiler: Souls

The infinite energy of the soul cannot be harvested except through Heaven's Feel. Servant summoning is considered an incomplete/defective application of Heaven's Feel.

Third True Magic Materialization of the soul, in other words, the magic that realizes true immortality. When accomplished, the practitioner will acquire an unlimited source of magical energy due to the soul becoming analogous to a perpetual motion machine. This is the Magic of the Einzbern lineage, and the Holy Grail War was established to acquire this Magic. ~Fate/Complete Material III

The materialization of the soul is compared to a perpetual motion machine. In a Singularity that allows Maxwell's Demon (a conceptual Servant representing the creation of a perpetual motion machine) the full use of his ability, it is stated that he has unlimited energy:



I also like to point out that this is literally a misquotation:

Also, Servants themselves are literally materialized souls.

What you provided was a misconception which was immediately answered with: "No."

This higher dimensional stuff grants infinite energy. For example it allowed BB to become an infinite concept able to cross an infinite distance:

It’s actually an infinite distance that cannot be covered even if you try for centuries. The only thing that can serve as a bridge across the borderline to connect Moon Cell‘s core to the normal address space is the arena that Moon Cell made to summon the victor of the Holy Grail War. …Is how it’s supposed to be, but BB used an imaginary number space to force herself to become an infinite concept, and by using a fake arena she managed to break past the borderline. ~Fate/EXTRA Material

She also raised all her stats (including Strength, Endurance, and Agility) to ★ Rank, which is stated to be a value so high it is impossible to numerically represent.

Class: Moon Cancer Name: BB Master: None Noble Phantasm: Cursed Cutting Crater (C. C. C.) Keyword: Advanced level AI, khakkhara of direction Strength: ★, Endurance: ★, Agility: ★, Magic: ★, Luck: ★ Golden Grail: EX, Self-Modification: EX, Potnia Theron: EX

Sakura Matou, with the Black Shadow (antagonist of the Heaven's Feel route of Fate/stay night), was said to be on the level of pure Heroic Spirits, not just servants.

Spoiler: Heroic Spirits

This entire argument is based on misconception regarding terminology.

The Counter Force is a formless spiral of power. It adjusts its scale based on the target that needs to be obliterated. The Counter Force will always appear with a status above the target, enough to absolutely secure a victory. Normally, the Counter Force empowers "a normal person" to remove the factor that can trigger destruction. As a result, these individuals are worshiped as "Heroes". Individuals who became Heroes through the aspect of Alaya are said to be integrated into Alaya after death. However, the accuracy of this statement is uncertain. These individuals are also called Counter Guardians. The emphasis here is "Counter", because they have no autonomy and will only activate in response to an event. ~Kara no Kyoukai Special Pamphlet

Things that are called "Heroic Spirits":

1. Servants
2. Counter Guardians (aka. Pseudo-Heroic Spirits)
3. Heroic Spirits within the Throne of Heroes (Servants are inferior/incomplete copies of them)

Servants are Tier 6.
The power of Counter Guardians is variable, as the Counter Force utilizes the minimum power needed against an opponent.
Heroic Spirits within the Throne of Heroes are Tier 1.

Sakura was stated to be beyond human capabilities like Counter Guardians, which doesn't really mean much scaling wise.

Also, you seem to argue in point 3. that since the World can Summon the main body of Heroic Spirits... all Counter Guardians are as strong as the main body of Heroic Spirits, which is not a valid argument.

For example, Okita Alter is a Counter Guardian who is just a modified copy of who Okita is in the Throne of Heroes:

A different aspect of Okita Souji. This version is a highly specialized Heroic Spirit whose Spirit Origin was altered to exercise her power to act as a deterrent. As she was designed for a single, temporary manifestation, her Spirit Origin was modified to the point that it became entirely different from the first Okita's, aside from her essential features. This is also why she has been summoned as an Alter Ego, rather than Okita's more suitable class of Saber. She is, in a way, a result of one of the possible lives Okita may have led, since she died so young. Independent Action: A As a Guardian, she is able to act independently. As she manifested in desperate times for the sole purpose of annihilating the target on her own or taking the target out in a suicide attack, this skill was adjusted to be high-ranking.

The same thing goes for the different realms of the Moon Cell. It's not elaborated on how we got to each of the alleged 5 levels of infinity larger than the 3-D realm

I think you got confused about the context. They are not ascending levels, each higher dimensional than the other. The character just encountered an 8D barrier blocking an entrance.

Almost, but not quite. It doesn't literally change the timeline, it can influence the world to a limited degree in order to grant your wish, but it cannot change the past.

???

If we establish that a generic non-specific command can cause the wish to come gradually or in unexpected ways, what does this prove?

 

[Deagonx]

???

This is regarding the Recorded Universe, the digital simulations within the Moon Cell, not the Observed Universe -- the real world outside the Moon.

That monologue, the parts cut off above that section, are Rin explaining the fundamental difference in the passing of time between the Real World and the Moon Cell. The Moon Cell cannot influence the real world retroactively, as the scan I provided shows, it can only affect the digital timelines in that manner because they're just data, the passage of time is illusory.

I'll respond to the rest later when I have time. As far as the discussion rule is concerned, this was brought up in the last thread and we determined it was fine. Discussion rules aren't unchallengeable and most of these points have never been properly evaluated.

 

[Deagonx]

Despite the claim that the ability is entirely absent outside the guidebooks, the guidebook statements are actually an elaboration of an ability Avalon demonstrated in the source material:

I think you misunderstood my argument. I was not claiming the ability was absent, I pointed out that the reference to a "sixth dimension" is absent, which your scans don't rebuke, there's no reference to the sixth dimension within them which was my primary point. The reference to a "sixth dimension" exists solely in 1 of the 4 guidebooks entries for Avalon. Nowhere else.

The argument cannot be accurately described as coherent or valid. There are no layers to block to begin with.

They may have pursued the Core from the other side of the Moon, but that doesn't mean the layers aren't there. The Near Side of the Moon still exists. This appears to be the best interpretation of the "cuts up to the eighth dimension" line, as it fits the most cleanly into the existing structure whereas "eight spatial dimensions" contradicts both the nature of the Moon Cell as well as appears out of nowhere.

Not only is this non-sequitur, but it is plainly false.

BB states that the digital world contains space-time:

It's rather plainly true. Even in this scan BB talks about this individual returning to the physical world. The world they are in is not physical, so the notion of "space time" is likely metaphorical, as for the "organic life form" to be in this space their body must be converted to a sequence of numbers.

BB mocks characters for not having more than three spatial dimensions:

They're not in the Moon Cell here.

SE.RA.PH, is stated to contain higher spatial dimensions and higher temporal dimensions:

None of these scans say either of these things.

Rin states that the perception of the recorded universe is over many dimensions, and then explained the concept of higher dimensional existence and higher dimensional perspective in general using an analogy of R>F over 3D space, and then stated that BB obtained a higher dimensional perspective.

As explained in the OP, she isn't describing R>F. The question is about the difference between the Observed Universe (the real world) and the Recorded Universe (the world's of the Moon Cell) in terms of the passage of time. Rins explanation is that from a "higher dimension" (the Moon Cells core) the data timelines of the Moon Cell are like reading a book, past present and future exist simultaneously. This isn't analogous to how higher dimensions work throughout the verse, as it's been proven that higher dimensional beings do not have infinitely great power.

The infinite energy of the soul cannot be harvested except through Heaven's Feel.

None of these scans state the soul has infinite energy, although this largely seems to be a rehash of Paul's same argument in the subject which I addressed in detail above so I'll avoid repetition.

This higher dimensional stuff grants infinite energy. For example it allowed BB to become an infinite concept able to cross an infinite distance:

This was in the Moon Cell, but none of these scans references souls, and again, none of this speculation overrides the concrete treatment of souls in F/SN as finite power sources.

Sakura was stated to be beyond human capabilities like Counter Guardians, which doesn't really mean much scaling wise.

No, the important part of the scan is that she was "on the level of pure Heroic Spirits" aka the ones within the Throne of Heroes.

 

[Paul_Frank]

I'd like to prevent this from becoming too dense for people to read, I'll limit my response to the most crucial points and not engage with stuff like the proposed justification for why the "six dimensional communication" thing for Avalon is only referenced in 1 out of 4 guidebooks, since that's largely subjective speculating and the debating about it wouldn't really go anywhere.


I'll clarify this is a misunderstanding of my argument, when I point out that the Moon Cell isn't spatial and is just data, I am not making the claim that it is incapable of influencing the reality outside the Moon Cell. It certainly has magical power and has the ability to affect the real world. That information is not a problem for my argument, I am just pointing out that the digital worlds of the Moon Cell are explicitly not physical.

Except as I pointed out, said data is physical, as the same things composing it compose matter outside of it, which is why the Umbral Star is able to break down physical matter and absorb it

This is a passive skill that allows Altera to absorb the lives, creations, and concepts she destroys as spiritron-information, making her grow even larger. It is not a skill that she can remove of her own volition.

Its not only from life that she can gain them, creations here is 建造物, referring to like, buildings and stuff

This is a misunderstanding. Spiritrons are defined as the "true essence" of the soul. Not everything within the Moon Cell is spiritrons, just the people. However, this very concretely is data. This is the description of what it means when Magi transform themselves into Spiritrons.

This is also incorrect, its not only the body which is converted into spiritrons, the entirety of the inside of the Mooncell is, hence it being called a Spiritron world, the Golden City being another Spiritron World, the rules being called spiritron laws, the spiritron network, stuff like the Spiritron Imaginary Pit, etc. Going back to the Umbral Star, who takes spiritrons from wherever it attacks, it takes them from the Mooncell too (keep in mind, last time it attacked there wouldn't have been people in it, humans didn't discover it until billions of years later). Spiritrons are called the true essence of the soul, this is correct, however we do know that spiritrons and pseudo spiritrons are able to just, compose matter. For instance, Saint Quartz, or Da Vinci's nano machines, everything according to Crest of the Wandering Star, etc. To go even further, a physical location, the Seraphix, made of just straight up physical matter, existing in our space time, is able to not only be merged with as I've repeatedly mentioned, but then converted to SE.RA.PH. If this data was just data and not at all able to have spatial or temporal dimensionality, this would be fundamentally impossible, to merge with a physical, three dimensional object

To be a true hacker, one must have the rare ability to clearly imagine the nature of one’s body virtually as a sequence of numbers


Almost, but not quite. It doesn't literally change the timeline, it can influence the world to a limited degree in order to grant your wish, but it cannot change the past. This is the description given of the Moon Cell's ability to grant wishes:

For example, if you were to wish “Make all the girls on Earth my little sisters.” In about ten years or so societies on Earth would have changed to be so. Or alternatively, all of Earth would be managed and directed to work in order to make a device to allow one to experience that dream realistically. There’s nothing that the human race can’t realize as long as it’s within the scope of human imagination. No matter what kind of fantasy, no matter how unrealistic, there is a way to realize and experience it.

This doesn't say it can not change the past as you're implying, at all really, but lack of ability to change the past when its a thing really just comes down to the existence of QTLs, the anchoring bands which will determine the past as a fixed event at times. In fact in some of the scans Shadow posted, they mention changing the past, and its really weird to try and argue its talking about only inside the Mooncell, because the wishes are granted outside, in addition to mentioning the heroic spirit's world, which isn't in the Mooncell, its outside

I'll reiterate that I am not denying that the Moon Cell has the ability to influence the outside world, but it is clearly not infinitely great and is not as far reaching as you claim. In fact, the source material is very explicit that the work-around the Moon Cell will use for tasks that it cannot accomplish is to have technology made to experience it.

That's not really what that line implies, that it would use that technology to do it if its unable to do so otherwise, instead it implies it just can do that as an alternative, which makes more sense given the whole, you know, infinite worlds thing, if there are infinite worlds there's more than one method by which a goal can be accomplished. Additionally to further drive home the idea that it you know, just alters the timeline, see the entire section I posted above with the whole determining outcomes thing.

Again, you're just a bit off here. Yes they're saying the Moon Cell is higher dimensional (though my post proves this does not mean infinitely more powerful), but the reason it knows the future is not because of this, the Moon Cell cannot actually view the physical future of the world due to being higher dimensional, rather, it can predict the future with extreme accuracy. What you're saying runs contrary to the basic function of the Moon Cell. If it were the case that the Moon Cell could literally view the future of the Observed Universe, it's function as a prediction device would be rendered nonsensical, the very concept of prediction is impossible. What Rin tells us in the monologue in the OP is that the observed universe simply doesn't function this way. BB can only view the Recorded Universe this way because it's all digital, there is no "time" in the Moon Cells worlds in the physical sense.

??????????
No, literally where are you getting any of this from. It knows the future because it has seen the future along with simulating everything, what I'm saying doesn't run contrary to the basic function of the Mooncell at all, we're in fact, told it specifically nerfs itself to maintain that function. Rani herself says

The Moon Cell is the eyes of god. The photon-based recording medium in the Core is a higher dimensional existence. The Moon Cell Core knows how the human race will end. But there is no valuation of any kind in that result. The Moon Cell has within it no basis to judge the options, how to create a better future — to judge between good and evil, you could say. This is the management of the Earth was left to humanity. Or, why a third party overlooked it and did not intervene. But, if an AI with a clear basis for judgment were inserted, the Moon Cell would select the best future according to a single intelligence. — which is to say, the erasure of mankind. If they are to be ultimately destroyed, it is because now they must be destroyed

Now, my argument is simply that this says literally exactly what it says, the Core is higher dimensional, and knows how humanity will end, it already knows the result. You instead argue that this can't be what it means because otherwise the Universe of Observation would be predetermined, however this misses what I posted above, it wants this to not happen, and has thus avoided it

An observation device must be fair. If it is to observe, there must be nothing unseen. Thus, it required capabilities for knowing everything about the Earth.
To record all things without bias, it needed performance greater than that of an observation device.

And so, it had made a giant leap in evolution.

It had enhanced its functions to the point where it went from making observations to surveillance, even understanding the workings of the planet.

The greater its enhancements, the more complicated its administration policy.
It created many terminals and even made artificial intelligences to manage functions for each section.
(These were later utilized for the NPCs and advanced AIs of the Holy Grail War)
However, it firmly refused to install an artificial intelligence for itself.

The observer must not have a mind.
For the observer to have a mind would result in the meaning of things being decided by the observer.
Thus, it kept to maintaining its absolute objectivity as an eye, doing so while always dismantling the emerging semblances of sapience that it had incorporated to administrate its functions.

By not having a mind, even when viewing it from the higher perspective, it doesn't end up choosing a result, it is this choosing a result according to KnK, FSN, FSF, and Extra, that locks in a world to one determined result. So in that case, by not being able to choose a result, it doesn't matter if it views it from a transcendental perspective like we're told, it doesn't mess anything up. So no, it doesn't run contrary to the way the Mooncell works at all

Moon Cell is a computational device that accurately simulates all of Earth and its life forms, and can even accurately predict the future.


Not quite. This statement does not support the claim that souls inherently have infinite power. Rather, it says that through the magic that realizes true immortality the soul becomes analogous to a perpetual motion machine. This suggests that prior to this magic being applied, it is not a perpetual motion machine. This absolutely does not tell us that souls have infinite power.

You must have just missed how the magic works. The reason why it becomes that way is because prior to that said infinite energy can not be used. This is because as I mentioned, there is a hard limit at birth as to how much power you can use due to your body. What the third magic does is allow the soul to not need the body, and in doing so, it can use its infinite power.

More importantly, there is a wealth of evidence to the contrary. If souls contained infinite power, Servants would not need to devour thousands up them to put up Tier 6 feats. One would be enough, but it's very clearly the case that souls do not contain infinite power. Your statement that the 3rd Magic simply "allows souls to exercise their full power" isn't supported by your scan.

Again, read the part about the hard limit on energy

Sorry, but you're basically making this up. Nothing in the verse suggests that when souls are absorbed that they simply take some pittance of power from the infinite reservoir that is any single soul and then the rest disappears or passes on. In fact, what we are told about souls suggests this is quite blatantly untrue. Gilgamesh was directly stated to have power equal to a few hundred thousand souls:

Is she still not satisfied after consuming a heroic spirit with energy worth a few hundred thousand souls?

I can't believe I'm making up the literal direct quotes saying that you have a max cap on energy. Anyway no nothing directly says they only take a pittance, but when we're told first that the soul has infinite power, and then told that you have a hard max cap on energy that can not be exceeded, its pretty obvious how it works. And like, okay? Gilgamesh has energy worth a few hundred thousand souls and that means what exactly? Sakura if you didn't know, has a much different method of absorption, not only having the imaginary element of INS as her element, which aids in making hers better, but having the trait of absorption, and having the grail to help with all that. Sakura absorbing Gilgamesh does not suddenly change anything about the max cap or anything, that's completely irrelevant

Two things, first is that Counter Guardians are true heroic spirits, it is explicitly stated that only the world can summon the main body (whereas Servants are summoned by ritual).

What can be thought of as a heroic spirit’s “main body” resides in the Throne of Heroes, and can only be summoned by the World.

Second, Counter Guardians don't themselves have variable power, the Counter Force does, this is an important distinction. The varying power of the Counter Force isn't like some random sliding scale for the individual Guardian summoned, it is the level of response the Force itself uses, which sometimes doesn't even involve summoning a Heroic Spirit. Also, from Garden of Avalon:

——————“The difference between a Heroic Spirit and a Guardian,
although they are both spirits of the throne, a Heroic Spirit is summoned by
people's hope, whilst a Guardian is summoned by people's despair.”

This doesn't support your point though? You post that Guardian's are spirits of the throne as well, which are summoned by people's despair, and that the main body of a heroic spirit is said to be only able to be summoned by the world, and allege that means that Counter Guardians are always heroic spirit level, this is incorrect see Shadow's post which includes stuff like you know, Okitan being a counter guardian and in fact not being heroic spirit level.

The Counter Force doesn't have varying power, the Counter Force uses varying power levels, this is applied to what it summons or calls on when needed, for instance, it called on Ryougi Shiki, and didn't amp her vs Araya, it called on EMIYA in his past to fight humans, it had no reason to amp him there, the only time it'd actually have a reason to amp something to full heroic spirit level is if its fighting like, a beast (but in that case Grands exist). Its not that the counter force just chooses what to send based on the circumstance, but it also amps it, specifically they mention it empowering people, and then Enkidu exists with his mats just directly saying this is the case, that it will increase its power given to something

The Counter Forces known as Alaya and Gaia's powers flow into a keystone made of light. Then giant amounts of energy are transformed into a form that the world can recognize and pierces the opponent in one hit. In response to things that threaten the destruction of the planet or humanity, the power is increased.

All in all, mats saying that the World can summon full heroic spirits =/= Counter Guardians are at that level at all times. This then makes the Sakura statement sorta meaningless? Unless you try to allege then that Pure Heroic Spirit means the ones in the throne (and that Kirei somehow knows their power levels to have that monologue), despite that not being said. Even if you do that, we end up in a situation where the statement doesn't do anything anyway. So even under these assumptions, the actual statement is talking about her presence and amount of overall magical energy, not like, her physical stats. And then nothing actually scales to Dark Sakura, you see she's just like, not hit, ever, besides by Rule Breaker through a specific interaction, Rin's Jeweled Sword is able to beat the Shadows she conjures because these shadows have an explicitly limited amount of power due to her circuits

This is regarding the Recorded Universe, the digital simulations within the Moon Cell, not the Observed Universe -- the real world outside the Moon.

That monologue, the parts cut off above that section, are Rin explaining the fundamental difference in the passing of time between the Real World and the Moon Cell. The Moon Cell cannot influence the real world retroactively, as the scan I provided shows, it can only affect the digital timelines in that manner because they're just data, the passage of time is illusory.

I'll respond to the rest later when I have time. As far as the discussion rule is concerned, this was brought up in the last thread and we determined it was fine. Discussion rules aren't unchallengeable and most of these points have never been properly evaluated.

They definitely have been evaluated but okay.

Anyway this is definitely not about the recorded universe, because all the wishes described there are only granted on the outside, hence the mention in the manga scan there of the Spirit's world.

They may have pursued the Core from the other side of the Moon, but that doesn't mean the layers aren't there. The Near Side of the Moon still exists. This appears to be the best interpretation of the "cuts up to the eighth dimension" line, as it fits the most cleanly into the existing structure whereas "eight spatial dimensions" contradicts both the nature of the Moon Cell as well as appears out of nowhere.

It uhh, it does mean that. If the wall is protecting the Core from intruders that are coming from the Far Side, assuming it is cutting through layers in the Near Side is illogical, not to mention the repeatedly stated fact that this interpretation means the wall which is meant to cut off the Core, would be going through the core and thusly not protecting it

It's rather plainly true. Even in this scan BB talks about this individual returning to the physical world. The world they are in is not physical, so the notion of "space time" is likely metaphorical, as for the "organic life form" to be in this space their body must be converted to a sequence of numbers.

This is an assumption with no basis at all. You're just going "well she says return back to the physical world, therefore space-time doesn't actually exist there and is a metaphor", that's not a good argument in any sense

They're not in the Moon Cell here.

They don't need to be because it still lends credence to the Mooncell having them, as you know
BB came from there, and got her power from there because she's the same one
BB was higher dimensional in the Mooncell, which is why she's able to mock people outside of it for not being higher dimensional, as she still is, outside of the Mooncell with her true power not sealed by herself.

As explained in the OP, she isn't describing R>F. The question is about the difference between the Observed Universe (the real world) and the Recorded Universe (the world's of the Moon Cell) in terms of the passage of time. Rins explanation is that from a "higher dimension" (the Moon Cells core) the data timelines of the Moon Cell are like reading a book, past present and future exist simultaneously. This isn't analogous to how higher dimensions work throughout the verse, as it's been proven that higher dimensional beings do not have infinitely great power.

No.

We begin by asking about Universe of Observation and stuff, and then after that, during the explanation she shifts, her exact wording being

On the other hand, the laws of the Universe of Records are different. The Universe of Records is a perception from some dimension above... Think of it like a higher-dimensional existence.

So now she has established that the Universe of Record is a perception from some dimension above, or in other words, a higher dimensional existence, then her next lines are all dedicated to not explaining the Universe of Record specifically, but rather what a higher dimensional existence is

Viewed from a higher dimension, even a three-dimensional object is the same as a flat scroll.
Like... If the three-dimensional world was mere writing in a book, and you jumped to escape from the book, right?
The past, present, and future of the "You" that was just in that book... You'll be able to look down upon all of it as mere records.

You know the rest, its all explaining a higher dimensional existence then relates it back to the Universe of Records afterwards, it is in fact in general terms and then applied to stuff

 

[Deagonx]

Well, so much for keeping it short.

At this point the real obstacles becomes convincing people to actually evaluate the arguments, so I'm going to refrain from responding until some more staff provide input and determine which points are the most important for them, because I fear this will end up like the last thread where the thread dies mostly due to word count.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Objections: In a nutshell, many characters in the verse scale to Low 1-C essentially because one of the four guidebooks that describes Avalon's ability does so by saying it "blocks multidimensional communication up to the sixth" with no expansion on what those dimensions are. Avalon's ability is never described that way in any of the actual source material, and the three other guidebooks that describe this ability simply say it blocks out physical interference. We have dozens of characters treated as Low 1-C because of this.

Avalon's ability only being described that way a single time is irrelevant, as long as it isn't contradicted by other instances of it. Blocking out physical interference and blocking out multidimensional interference up to the sixth dimension, after all, are not mutually exclusive.

Overall the objections here are quite weird: You admit that this isn't meant to assess that the scan is wrong, but that the evidence is, in your words, "thin." Yet it seems much of your grievances lie with connecting this statement with the one regarding the Moon Cell, in which case... Why mention this at all? Seems pointless to do so when this statement is only meant to serve as evidence for Tier 1 with background context and not in a vacuum.

Objections: This relationship isn't spatial dimensionality, of which there is none within the Moon Cell (it is digital, information), it is BB's distinct position outside of these timelines as the admin of a computer system which is running them as a simulation. This has nothing to do with Avalon or the Spherical Defense Wall that we currently use to tier some of these characters. What Rin is describing here is currently being used to model the guidebook statement for Avalon as meaning "three layers of R>F transcendence over the regular world" when in fact these two pieces of information couldn't be more unrelated.

The argument, to my understanding, basically boils down to "Things with Property X can do Y. Z has Property X, therefore it can do Y." Which isn't a bad argument by any means. It's sound logic. Your grips with the Moon Cell as a whole seem to reach higher than this alone, though, so, moving on to them:

This relationship isn't spatial dimensionality, of which there is none within the Moon Cell (it is digital, information), it is BB's distinct position outside of these timelines as the admin of a computer system which is running them as a simulation.

It's rather plainly true. Even in this scan BB talks about this individual returning to the physical world. The world they are in is not physical, so the notion of "space time" is likely metaphorical, as for the "organic life form" to be in this space their body must be converted to a sequence of numbers.

A sizeable portion of the OP's argument, as these two tidbits tell me, is that, since the Moon Cell is not physical, it can't have spatial dimensions, and as such the statements about higher dimensionality pertaining to it are surely metaphors for other things. In fact the argument goes as far as saying that mentions of "space-time" in relation to the Moon Cell are metaphorical due to that.

Validity of this particular conclusion aside, it clashes with this point, which the thread maker declares the more central one:

I probably could have made my point with fewer scans, but I wanted to drive the point home: Souls are higher dimensional in Nasuverse, that much is beat into our heads over and over again. They're also not a physical phenomenon and thus shouldn't be thought of as having spatial dimensions.

Basically, the goal here is to showcase that souls in Nasuverse are higher-dimensional constructs, and yet have only a finite amount of power to them, thus meaning that higher dimensions in this verse don't grant infinitely more power. Yet this very same argument goes out of its way to reason that, since souls are non-physical, their nature isn't dimensional, either, and as such their "higher dimensionality" isn't to be thought of as referring to axes.

Honestly, though, if you reason that "higher dimension" with regards to souls doesn't refer to higher dimensionality in the geometrical sense, then the "Souls only have finite power" thing becomes redundant, since the point of argumentation that'd serve as the crux of its would-be high-tier (Higher spatial dimensions) would then be an invalid one. It only becomes a piece of counterevidence under the premise that they are, in fact, properly higher-dimensional. Without that, there is nothing for it to counter to begin with.

Furthermore if souls being higher-dimensional is interpreted as not referring to literal dimensions but to some ill-defined other thing, then you don't have much leverage to use them as a counterargument against the Moon Cell's statements, either, since then "higher dimension" becomes a nebulous descriptor with no concrete meaning (Other than what the verse decides, that is) instead of a well-defined characteristic that you could use to link both.

There is an attempt at smoothing this over here:

Souls are definitively higher dimensional, they are called such many many times, and not only that, we know that they are precisely the same kind of higher-dimensional as the Moon Cell, as they are directly used to interact with it and create computers that can interact with it.

Referring to these two things:

Before, consciousness was thought to only manifest through a physical body. But magi managed to measure the position of “the soul” and redirect its output into a new world; the cyber world. They succeeded in allowing one to create a digital copy of themselves (a bunshin).
After this magi could transfer themselves into the digital world and carry out higher level information gathering.
The soul is a energy body that resides in a higher dimension, and is actually an unbelievably excellent information medium.

The Pseudo-Spiritron Computer is a parallel computation device that uses the soul (which resides in a higher dimension) as its axis to activate a “something” which lies in a parallel world.

But I don't see how either of those would prove that souls are higher-dimensional in the same way BB is, given that, as far as I can tell, the "sees the universe as a flat scroll where all time exists at once" thing is described as something exclusive to BB and the Moon Cell itself.

So, you have two choices here, and you can't go with both at once:

a) Souls are literally higher-dimensional, but this doesn't matter because they explicitly have only finite power (This forces you to concede on the point regarding the nature of the Moon Cell's dimensionality, since you'd be accepting that those things do have a degree of spatiality to them, despite everything)

b) Souls aren't literally higher-dimensional, as they are not physical constructs to begin with (This allows you to maintain the argument about the Moon Cell being just data and as such non-dimensional)

---

All that aside, there is also this point:

Essentially, true Heroic Spirits are directly described as being within a single order of magnitude of power as their Servant counterparts, despite this, they are directly said to exist in a higher dimension that transcends time, viewing time in a similar manner to BB.

Paul seems to have given a good enough response to this here:

Even worse however, is that this numerical game doesn't work because even sans higher d things, full Heroic Spirits are just outright tier 2. 7 of them can take Primate Murder, they are able to participate in Solomon, fighting the demon pillars (and Goetia if you use the movie), with them all also being able to fight on equal footing with Goddess Rhongomyniad, who is relative to Grand Servant Hassan, who is able to fight beasts, which have tier 2 feats themselves (Kama for instance), there's also stuff like Amaterasu, etc, in general, there's a reason why the verse was previously tier 2 before it was tier 1, even before using Mooncell stuff it was still tier 2. Last time it wasn't at least low 2-C was pre Ooku

If Heroic Spirits are Tier 2 even outside of all the higher-dimensional statements, then the whole "A Heroic Spirit only 6x stronger than Tier 6 characters" is pretty worthless, and seems like an example of a case where we'd just gladly ignore stated multipliers. If we apply this argument while simultaneously acknowledging that Heroic Spirits are, in fact, more than 6x stronger than Servants, then this situation plays out more or less like this:

"We have to downgrade these characters from Tier 1 because they're only six times stronger than Tier 6s!"

"Shucks, what tier should they be?"

"Tier 2."

Which is obviously comically bad and if anything a sign of massive short-sightedness on the part of the person proposing the downgrade.

---

Lastly, there is the matter of the nature of souls themselves. If they are accepted as being literal higher-dimensional constructs, then the fact they are only finitely powerful, even in relation to Tier 6 characters, is indeed a pretty solid blow to the verse's Tier 1 ratings.

The arguments aganst it seem to revolve around this:

Materialization of the soul, in other words, the magic that realizes true immortality. When accomplished, the practitioner will acquire an unlimited source of magical energy due to the soul becoming analogous to a perpetual motion machine. This is the Magic of the Einzbern lineage, and the Holy Grail War was established to acquire this Magic.

Which is taken to mean that Souls are actually sources of limitless power when properly materialized. The counterargument given, then, was:

Not quite. This statement does not support the claim that souls inherently have infinite power. Rather, it says that through the magic that realizes true immortality the soul becomes analogous to a perpetual motion machine. This suggests that prior to this magic being applied, it is not a perpetual motion machine. This absolutely does not tell us that souls have infinite power.

Which was responded with:

You must have just missed how the magic works. The reason why it becomes that way is because prior to that said infinite energy can not be used. This is because as I mentioned, there is a hard limit at birth as to how much power you can use due to your body. What the third magic does is allow the soul to not need the body, and in doing so, it can use its infinite power.

Granted, I'd want more information on all the stuff about Third Magic and the materialization of the soul, and how it leads to the latter becoming a source of limitless power. For what's worth, it seems Nasuverse correctly portrays higher-dimensional spaces as having infinitely more room than lower-dimensional ones, so I can probably be persuaded to the opposition's side if given some framing context. So far it all just seems a bit scattered to me, though.

 

[Deagonx]

Thanks for the response. I am going to be busy today but I'll respond later tonight about points of contention.

 

[Theglassman12]

Yeah I'm not the biggest Nasu guy out there but where does Avalon's 6-D statement get contradicted? It being mentioned once doesn't invalidate the statement in any way, you have to prove that Avalon doesn't actually reach the 6th dimension instead of just saying "oh it's mentioned once so therefore it's contradicted".

As for the Moon Cells stuff, Idk why the "it's stated to be spherical" remotely shoots the 8-D stuff in the foot, that's just describing the appearance of the object, not the nature of its dimensionality.

Paul and Ultima sums up the counter points here pretty well, Disagree with the OP for their reasons.

 

[Firestorm808]

Yeah I'm not the biggest Nasu guy out there but where does Avalon's 6-D statement get contradicted? It being mentioned once doesn't invalidate the statement in any way, you have to prove that Avalon doesn't actually reach the 6th dimension instead of just saying "oh it's mentioned once so therefore it's contradicted".

As for the Moon Cells stuff, Idk why the "it's stated to be spherical" remotely shoots the 8-D stuff in the foot, that's just describing the appearance of the object, not the nature of its dimensionality.

Paul and Ultima sums up the counter points here pretty well, Disagree with the OP for their reasons.

The Avalon and Mooncell statements don't have any context supporting there being multiple levels of Infinite greater size/superiority from the other realms.

A dimension/realm where you are able to see an entire timeline does not indicate infinite superiority, otherwise any realm that contains timelines would be Tier 1.

 

[CloverDragon03]

I'm gonna go ahead and voice my disagreement as well. I feel Paul and Ultima sum up my main gripes, that being the lack of an actual contradiction in Avalon being 6-D and the description of the Moon Cell not being relevant to its dimensionality

 

[Firestorm808]

I still don't follow how Avalon is supposed to have superiority.

The statements basically says it has some dimensional travel resistance rather that the realm itself being superior in size and power.

What demonstrable properties does Avalon have to support such infinite superiority to other realms on multiple levels.

 

[Deagonx]

Which is taken to mean that Souls are actually sources of limitless power when properly materialized. The counterargument given, then, was:

Which was responded with:

Granted, I'd want more information on all the stuff about Third Magic and the materialization of the soul, and how it leads to the latter becoming a source of limitless power. For what's worth, it seems Nasuverse correctly portrays higher-dimensional spaces as having infinitely more room than lower-dimensional ones, so I can probably be persuaded to the opposition's side if given some framing context. So far it all just seems a bit scattered to me, though.

So, with regard to Souls and the Third Magic, the explanation that Paul is giving is largely infused with his own conjecture to sort of fill in the gaps left behind by the theory that he is proposing.

The Third Magic is described as the materialization of the soul, and it is said to make the soul analogous to a perpetual motion machine thus providing infinite energy. Paul's conjecture that this is due to essentially "unlocking" some infinite pool of energy that all souls have is wrong, the Third Magic is said to elevate the soul to the next level of life.

"W-Wait…! So the Third Sorcery is the materialization of the soul!? But Servants are materialized souls too…!"
--
"No. The system does use a part of the Third Sorcery, but the heroic spirits are summoned.
Servants aren't alive as part of this world or time. It's too imperfect to be the Third Sorcery. And heroic spirits can take form in this world without the help of sorcery as long as they have a host."
--
"Heavens Feel is not a spell that duplicates a soul perceived in the past.
It's actually a spell to make an existence of a higher dimension that can take a spirit form and still influence the physical world.
It takes a soul and elevates it to the next level of life."

Keep in mind that there are only five Magics, which is different from Magecraft, they are things that involving doing what is normally considered impossible and performing it involves accessing the Root. A normal soul is not a container of infinite energy. When I pointed out how souls are treated as finite energy deposits Paul attempted to circumvent this by pointing out that people can only contain a finite amount of magical energy, essentially proposing that Servants could absorb a soul and reach their full capacity, but the rest of the "infinite energy" of the soul would need to disperse or be left behind due to limitations on capacity.

This is also, again, made up on the spot to justify this theory and it is directly incompatible with what is actually happening in the series. In many cases Servants absorb many souls at once or in a relatively short period of time. If Paul's theory were accurate (that they are simply reaching their max capacity with a single soul and then forsaking the rest) then this would not make any sense. One of the earliest scenes in the F/SN series is Rin discovering the spell circle that was designed to harvest an entire high school. This is also contradicted by the fact that Gilgamesh was said to be worth a few hundred thousand souls. Human souls do not have infinite power, neither do Servant souls.

Also, these scans also very concretely disproves this theory:

"You should not be surprised. The Holy Grail is a filtration device that turns the soul into pure magical energy.
Yes, it should let you grant any wish. It contains more magical energy than a magus could ever use within his lifetime.
That is why it is better with more sacrifices. It should be omnipotent with six Servants as sacrifices.
Five Servants have filled the Holy Grail. Only one more is needed for the omnipotent grail they sought."

"The Great Holy Grail administers the system of the Holy Grail War. The Holy Grail collects the souls of the defeated heroic spirits and acts as the reactor core to activate the Great Holy Grail."

"And once the Holy Grail collects enough souls to activate the Great Holy Grail, it uses the heroic spirits' souls to open a hole.
The Great Holy Grail fixes the small hole created when the heroic spirits return to their original place after their roles are fulfilled. This opens up the passage to the origin that humans cannot reach."

The function of the Holy Grail is to collect the souls of defeated heroic spirits. Humans, coffins, stew pot, it doesn't matter what it's made of as long as it has that special function. It just has to be a sufficiently large container of souls."

The Holy Grail literally converts souls into pure magical energy, but needs six servants (one of which was said to be worth a few hundred thousand souls). If Paul's theory were accurate a single soul would be fine, because the Holy Grail would be able to store all of it. Yet this is clearly not the case.

 

[Deagonx]

Basically, the goal here is to showcase that souls in Nasuverse are higher-dimensional constructs, and yet have only a finite amount of power to them, thus meaning that higher dimensions in this verse don't grant infinitely more power. Yet this very same argument goes out of its way to reason that, since souls are non-physical, their nature isn't dimensional, either, and as such their "higher dimensionality" isn't to be thought of as referring to axes.

Honestly, though, if you reason that "higher dimension" with regards to souls doesn't refer to higher dimensionality in the geometrical sense, then the "Souls only have finite power" thing becomes redundant, since the point of argumentation that'd serve as the crux of its would-be high-tier (Higher spatial dimensions) would then be an invalid one. It only becomes a piece of counterevidence under the premise that they are, in fact, properly higher-dimensional. Without that, there is nothing for it to counter to begin with.

Furthermore if souls being higher-dimensional is interpreted as not referring to literal dimensions but to some ill-defined other thing, then you don't have much leverage to use them as a counterargument against the Moon Cell's statements, either, since then "higher dimension" becomes a nebulous descriptor with no concrete meaning (Other than what the verse decides, that is) instead of a well-defined characteristic that you could use to link both.

There is an attempt at smoothing this over here:

Referring to these two things:

But I don't see how either of those would prove that souls are higher-dimensional in the same way BB is, given that, as far as I can tell, the "sees the universe as a flat scroll where all time exists at once" thing is described as something exclusive to BB and the Moon Cell itself.

So, you have two choices here, and you can't go with both at once:

a) Souls are literally higher-dimensional, but this doesn't matter because they explicitly have only finite power (This forces you to concede on the point regarding the nature of the Moon Cell's dimensionality, since you'd be accepting that those things do have a degree of spatiality to them, despite everything)

b) Souls aren't literally higher-dimensional, as they are not physical constructs to begin with (This allows you to maintain the argument about the Moon Cell being just data and as such non-dimensional)

I would frame it a bit differently. Bear with me here.

Spoiler: Rin's Monologue

Currently, Rin's monologue is being fashioned as an "overall explanation for how higher dimensions work throughout the verse" and it is through that characterization that Avalon and the Moon Cell are being treated as x infinities above a universe, because the content of Rin's monologue is being applied to them as "the overall explanation for higher dimensionality" and this is why Servants are treated as having "4-D invulnerability" (because they are materialized souls.) This is not an accurate characterization of Rin's monologue.

She was asked a question about the Recorded Universe and Observed Universe, and explained that the difference between them is the concept of time. Her explanation never shifts to one of "generically explaining higher dimensionality" as I will demonstrate below. This is absolutely crucial.

She answers the question first by explaining the concept of time in the observed universe (the Real World) in the first paragraph.

You would call it the difference between "recognized time" and "recorded time," I guess. see, right now we're standing here talking, and that's the present, right? But, …one, two, three, and. Right. So now the previous me…what I said three seconds ago has become the "past." Even though we're still in the middle of the "same conversation." That's the flow of time according to your cognizance. Humans divide time and space into past, present, and future according to their own cognizance. That's the very simple physical law of observed space.

Simple, in the observed universe time passes, there is a cognizant flow of time and a division between past and present. When this alleged "shift" in topic occurs... she's still explaining this same thing, there's no shift in topic. She had just finished explaining time as it exists in the Observed Universe, and then explains it in the Recorded Universe. This isn't an assumption, that's literally what she says:

On the other hand, the laws of the recorded universe are different. The perception of the recorded universe is over many dimensions…think of it as a higher dimensional existence. From this higher dimension, the third dimension looks like a flat scroll. Er, if the three-dimensional world is a world drawn in a book, and then if you jumped inside the book and came out outside the book, something like that? And then you're able to look down on any point in your past, present, and future from when you were inside the book, as a record — that's the higher dimensional perspective.

The section of this monologue which is being fashioned as "how dimensions work overall" literally begins with a preface that she is explaining the laws of the Recorded Universe. Once the section I just quoted ends, she explains even further about the concept of time in the Recorded Universe:

You get it? Under these circumstances, all time inside the book becomes equivalent. Since you can always turn to whatever time you want to. There's no past or future. It's the same as that. This is imaginary number space, a higher dimensional information space made from light. The far side of the moon is fundamentally operated according to the laws of the recorded universe, not the observed universe. We are foreign bodies…no, guests. Creatures of the the observed universe that have been thrown into the recorded universe. Whereas the Moon Cell's Core is a concurrent world simulator where all possibilities are calculated and the past, present, and future all exist at the same time. In other words, it belongs to the recorded universe. BB has become that Moon Cell. She's obtained a higher dimensional perspective. So — BB can handle the past and the future simultaneously.

There's no departure anywhere in the monologue from the explanation of the difference between the Recorded Universe and Observed Universe where you could fashion Rin's statement as a generic explanation for how higher dimensions function across Nasuverse. The book analogy serves solely as a function of explained the laws of time in the Recorded Universe that they are in and explains that the Moon Cell's Core is a world simulator where all time exists simultaneously, in other words, it belongs to the Recorded Universe.

My point being, I am critical of the reasoning used to extend this monologue to mean "higher dimensions are higher infinities because Rin is explaining how higher dimensions work in the verse" and my aim in demonstrating the non-physical nature of the world of the Moon Cell is to show that these are not spatial dimensions, and souls similarly are not higher spatial objects, they are astral and non-physical.

So b) is most accurate to my view, but a) is still relevant as it provides a defeater to the current tiers even if we continue to consider dimensions as uniform.

In summary, I would organize my points as such:

a) Rin's monologue is solely an explanation on difference in the concept of time between the Observed Universe and Recorded Universe. There can be no doubt about this, she is answering a question about that and from start to finish that is what she refers to. There is no point at which she shifts to "generally explaining higher dimensionality" and the section about BB only refers to her perception of time, which itself is embedded as a further explanation about the Recorded Universe, not "dimensions in general." It is assumed that this is what grants BB the power that she has (and this assumption is what couples the higher dimensionality to higher infinities throughout the verse) but that's not what the explanation is about, and that is not where BB's power comes from.

b) If we cannot use Rin's monologue as a unifying blanket dimensional theory that can be applied indiscriminately across the verse, we lose the basis for treating the Avalon dimension statement and Spherical Defense Wall statement as something that refers to stacked infinities, and for giving Servants "4-D invulnerability" due to being materialized souls.

c) If one were to insist, despite the above argument, that Rin's argument can be used as a blanket dimensional theory or that the verse in general treats dimensions consistently, we would still be forced to conclude that we cannot treat higher dimensions as higher infinities by default because Souls are a definitive counter-example to this. (Expanded upon further in my last comment)

Hopefully, through this lens, my approach to the OP is more sensible (even if awkwardly handled or poorly explained). My purpose in describing the current basis for the tiers as thin (by pointing out they are each from one-off statements that have no further context) is to show that once we depart from the notion that references to dimensions can be treated the same throughout the verse (which is what allows this limited information to result in such a high tier) it becomes clear that we lack the appropriate justification to treat a phrase like "blocks communications up to the sixth dimension" as a Low 1-C fortress.

 

[Deagonx]

Just a heads up, only thread moderators and administrators can grant permission to post on staff discussions. Content mods and CGMs cannot.

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

Received permission from @Ultima_Reality

About the argument of the Moon Cell not having having spatial properties, I believe others have already made clear in this thread and the previous one that it have indeed spatial properties, but to make things esier to other judging this thread I would like to to point out how part of the Moon Cell, specifically the Far Side of the Moon where all the events of the C.C.C game happens, is made of imaginary space

The Far Side of the Moon is a place where data deemed unnecessary by the Moon Cell is kept, similar to a dumping ground.
It is imaginary number space that continuously takes in data categorized as malignant information――that which is nothing but harmful to humans as well as intelligent lifeforms in general.

If we look at things made of Imaginary Numbers Space (also called void element or just imaginary space) we would notice how the in-game profile of Tiamat (an important character in the story) say that her body contain a four-dimensional space with infinite room (a correct portrayal of higher dimensions as Ultima said) due to how part of her is made of void element. There also one of the artificial beings created inside the Moon Cell (the Sakura Fives), Kingprotea, who is an amalgation of goddsess that include Tiamat, and who also possess an infinite size, an infinite size that BB normally nerf. Another Sakura Five, Passionlip, also possess a body made of imaginary space in the form of an infinite storage inside her breast. And by using imaginary number space BB can become infinite and cross an infinite distance:

It’s actually an infinite distance that cannot be covered even if you try for centuries.
The only thing that can serve as a bridge across the borderline to connect Moon Cell‘s core to the normal address space is the arena that Moon Cell made to summon the victor of the Holy Grail War.
…Is how it’s supposed to be, but BB used an imaginary number space to force herself to become an infinite concept,
and by using a fake arena she managed to break past the borderline. ~Fate/EXTRA Material

So the Moon Cell, as a matter of fact, possess spatial properties due to the simple fact of contain imaginary number space, additionally there is the whole spiritron part mentioned in length previously by Paul but I wanted to clarificate that even if somehow ignored that whole thing (for some reason) it would still possess spatial dimensions from that part. But even if the spatial properties it possess from both the spiritron and imaginary number space parts where ignored (again for some reason), even then the Moon Cell still would possess spatial properties do to straight up be called an bottomless klein cube:

An eye of the moon.

A bottomless (底無し: bottomless, endlessly deep, infinite) Klein cube.

So it's just impossible to say that it don't have spatial properties when everything show it having spatial properties, the spiritron argument, the imaginary number space argument, the statements about its spatial properties, the feats about its spatial properties, all of it would need to be overlooked in favor of the argument about it just being normal digital data despite the contradictions that cause.


Another weird thing is the argument about the Moon Cell don't having the same influence outside because we see all the time beings from the Moon Cell interact with the outside world, like Kiara (who have a body superior to a 4D cube btw) fusing the digital world with the real one through the CCC event, BB (who mocks beings with just three dimensions) creating a time loop in Hawaii or permanently stopping time before the Lostbelts happen (so the protagonist Ritsuka never suffer going through them), the protagonist of Extra and CCC (Hakuno) affecting from the Moon Cell two different timelines so a Beast like Draco gets a happy ending (in the process also affecting other Beasts like Tiamat, who have 4D space inside herself, and Female Merlin, who normally reside inside the 6D Avalon), etc. So the Moon Cell and the beings from inside it are always having a massive impact in the outside world, with things always getting resolved by the participation of more Moon Cell related things or beings of equal level as it.


And the constant argument that the R>F perspective and manipulation of timelines is only inside the Moon Cell instead of a general explanation of what higher dimensional perspective is in verse is something that just completely ignore other examples from different works that support that notion, like the most blatant case being the one show in Fate/Strange Fake where Zelretch (and a Dead Apostle) where looking at timelines as pages of a book and manipulated them as they pleased:

Extra Chapter
“Observer. Or, Character Creation”


The space was a completed world.
Jet black with points of light.
In the center of a room in the wide, perfect sphere dyed in the color of the night sky, there floated a wooden chair.
Based on its appearance alone, it would be enough to call the chair extravagant, but its wood gave it a refined hue, and one would not think it a repulsive gaud of the elite. Rather, just by existing here, it imbued the space around it with a conspicuous gravity.
If an unrefined person sat in the chair, that person would likely be consumed by the weight of the chair’s existence and hidden from surrounding view. Such was the significance of the chair.
The space had been prepared for the sole purpose of exhibiting the chair.
A man exuding a solemnity that outweighed that of the chair leaned back in it, emitting a loud creak.
“Hm…”
If one were to draw a reduced map of the universe based on this room, the man sitting in the chair would be at its center, emitting an air surely befitting its master.
His external appearance would probably place his age in the 50s or 60s.
One could sense the trials of his life in the wrinkles etched deeply on his face, but his eyes remained brimming with brilliance, such as one might see in someone ten years his junior.
“This axis is wrong… these lines(light polarization lines) will be annihilated too…”
When the man slipped his finger into the sky, the heavenly bodies displayed on the surrounding walls began to revolve.
“Oh, this cut-off isn’t so… no, it’s the worst. That damned giant spider will wake up. It’s a century too early to face that.”
Then, as if to match his words, the pages in the book hovering in front of the man turned with a flutter, inscribing multifarious information in real-time.
The thickness of the book was about that of a standard encyclopedia.
Regardless, as the man guided his finger through the air, thousands— tens of thousands of pages were born and erased.
After continuing this activity again and again, the old man muttered as if in boredom.
“As I thought, no matter how this is resolved, it doesn’t result in a satisfactory outcome for the Association. Having said that, there isn’t enough reason in my interventions. Yes, it’s a complete stalemate.”
The man who seemed to be talking to himself suddenly asked the space behind him for an opinion.
“What do you think? It’s about time you said hello. That communication device there is working fine.”
At that, the space replied,
“How rude of me. It seems you’ve noticed.”
There was a small wooden table of similar design to the chair. Atop it sat a telephone.
It had the shape of a very old telephone, the kind that looked like a table lamp at first glance. But instead of a light bulb, there was a conical speaker. Mounted on a thin post was a microphone. A dial was affixed to the base of the device.
It was a telephone you would only find in movies, museums, or antique shops, save for one difference. Unlike the black color of most antique telephones, this one was a beautiful blue color that evoked sapphire. At a glance, one could only think that it had been crafted from an enormous precious gem.
As for the question of how long the telephone had been there, there shouldn’t have been anything in that space until several minutes prior. But, the telephone was wonderfully integrated with the harmony of the room, as if it had always existed there.
Indeed, addressing the phone had confirmed the fact of its existence, as if the history of the room had been rewritten.
“With a little more time, I had planned to make the phone's bell ring.”
A youthful-sounding voice resounded from the telephone's speaker.
It seemed as if the phone was speaking according to its own will.
“Do I strike you as an old man who talks to himself?”
“Did you ask me that because you knew it was me?”
“Where do you think we are? I can count the number of people who can get inside.”
Rolling his shoulders, the old man glanced at the blue telephone.
“So, what business do you have here? If you want to have tea, come back later. Unfortunately, I’m wrapped up in some troublesome work.”
“Yeah, I’m actually here because of that.”
“What?”
“If you’re going to choose someone to observe the incident at Snowfield, don’t pick from the magi. You should select a world on the basis of being an intruder.
With that, the telephone’s dial slowly began to turn, returning to its starting point at certain intervals before turning again.
At the same time, the heavenly bodies revolving around the room — and the book that the old man was reading — began turning faster than they had been before.

Inscribed on the pages was the face of a human, and that person’s information(parameters).
At times, it was male. At times, it was female.
At times, it was elderly. At times, it was a child.
At times, it was musclebound. At times, it was obese.
At times, it was a saint. At times, it was a vicious murderer.
At times, it was a magus. At times, it was a priest.
Flipping between countless qualities such as race, gender, age, body type, clothing, personality, and occupation, the book’s pages turned with incredible momentum.
“You’re quite confident in the turning of the planets.”
“The trajectory to the future is like a labyrinth. It’s my specialty.”
Someone passing by the two at this moment would likely have found it a bizarre conversation.
“Of course, unlike my labyrinth, the destination one makes depends upon the person.”
The pages kept turning at a high speed, and the displayed faces smoothly blended into each other.
As if he was watching a scene from times past, the old man sat back and watched as the telephone continued to turn its own dial.
Then, after some time, the turning of the pages slowed.
Inscribed on one page was an Eastern person.
“Next is to… yes, she needs some glasses.”
The pages turned delicately. A thin-framed pair of glasses appeared on the person’s face.
“...Is that important?”
“Who knows? I’m just back-calculating from the result I arrived at. Whether or not it has any meaning at all is something we can consider later.”
“Hmph.”
As he looked at the information on the final page, the old man spoke to the telephone behind him.
“Still, you’ve suddenly involved yourself with the world. If you’re that bored, just visit the town yourself. Shouldn’t there be a cafe that caters to readers? You can kill plenty of time there.”
“No… this isn’t exactly killing time. I’m rather involved with the incident this time.”
“...I see. It’s something that one has thought of.”
The old man immediately understood the meaning behind the telephone’s words, and recalled someone’s face. He took a deep sigh— and then his lips twisted into a smile.
“So you have a bit of a plan… all the more reason you can’t intervene. It’s the sort of monster(fool) that rejoices as more intruders are involved. Let the Holy Grail War this time be followed through by an outsider.”
“Yeah, you’re right. If you handled this poorly, it would confirm the world.”
It was certainly a bizarre conversation that could only happen between these two. Then, the person behind the telephone — or possibly, the telephone itself — looked at the person now described in the open book, and spoke in a cheerful voice.
“Her universe is a pseudepigraphon, or perhaps it’s the opposite. Let’s hope for the best and watch over her.”


The book was opened to a picture of a young girl.
It was an apparently Eastern girl in her late teens to early twenties, with dyed blonde hair.
Below her portrait was a name beginning with the letter A.

And then, with her as the center(Player)—
Here and now, the curtain would rise on a Holy Grail War smeared in falsehood and vanity.

And since I just mentioned Zelretch I will also take the chance to point how Avalon is above him and his Second Magic, the True Magic that manipulate parallel worlds, due to block things up to the sixth dimension.

Avalon
Rank: EX
Type: Bound Field
Maximum Targets: 1 Person
The sheath of Excalibur, a Noble Phantasm with its origin in the Fairyland Avalon where King Arthur rests. The wielder will heal from any wound, and the aging process will cease. Unleashing the true name of Avalon will deploy a Bound Field that provides the greatest defence. A Noble Phantasm that annuls the interference of True Magic; its existence is equivalent to True Magic. Fate/complete material III: World Material - The Servants of the Fifth Holy Grail War: Saber

The Everdistant Utopia [Noble Phantasm]
Avalon.
The paradise in the Arthurian legends; a scabbard bearing the name of the Faerie Land.
The utopia Avalon was thought to be derived from the island that produced the "Apple of Immortality" in Greek mythology.
Avalon mended all wounds and halted the wielder's aging process. After unleashing its true name, Avalon would break into hundreds of shards and shield the wielder from all interference.
The sheath of the holy sword was excavated by the Einzberns from Cornwall. It was given to Kiritsugu as a catalyst to summon King Arthur.
It was a Noble Phantasm reaching the realm of True Magic. Avalon shut out all physical interference, operation of parallel worlds, and multi-dimensional communication (up to the sixth dimension).
If Saber went hikikomori, no one would reach her. Fate/side material - Encyclopedia: The Everdistant Utopia [Noble Phantasm]

•Avalon: The Everdistant Utopia
The matching “scabbard” of the holy sword Excalibur. The wielder does not age, and injuries will also quickly heal.
After invoking its true name, Avalon dissipates as tiny particles into the air, and shields the wielder from all interference. No damage can be done to the wielder when a state of absolute defence is initiated. Even interference from the parallel world based on the Second Magic will be blocked. An “absolute defence” that can even repel the assault of True Magic, it is a True Magic in itself. No one can harm the tranquil King that stands in the land of Avalon.
When Avalon was unleashed, not even the King of Heroes could harm Saber. Fate/complete material III: World material - Theory of Magic - Magecraft: Effects on the Level of True Magic

Regarding souls, the op recognize that they indeed are higher dimensional without doubt, however at the same time it have problems with the fact that people don't get infinite energy from them, I believe Paul explained quite well the motive of that with the max cap that everyone with a body have, despite this there still exist opposition from the fact that servants don't get infinite energy after eat souls, to which I want to ask, why should they get infinite energy from that? Yes, we are explicitly told that the Third Magic let to use the infinite energy of souls:

Materialization of the soul, in other words, the magic that realizes true immortality. When accomplished, the practitioner will acquire an unlimited source of magical energy due to the soul becoming analogous to a perpetual motion machine. This is the Magic of the Einzbern lineage, and the Holy Grail War was established to acquire this Magic.

However, we are also explicitly told that servants are too imperfect to be the Third Magic, so why is expected of them to do what a perfect Third Magic can do? Heck, even the Third Magic of an Illya that become a Holy Grail wasn't a perfect Third Magic:

The Holy Grail Illya can only use the divine mystery called the Third Sorcery.
Ilya managed to revive Shirou's soul with that.
She revived his soul and gave him a body free of wounds.

You might not believe me, but this is the Third Sorcery we're talking about.
It's not just putting your spirit into someone else's brain and controlling them.
Once you give it a container or a body, the soul manifested by the Third Sorcery will take perfect form.
It's the genes of the soul, not those of the body.
Preserving Shirou's soul, Ilya revived him by inserting it into a container.

…But it wasn't perfect. Maybe Ilya's Third Sorcery didn't match the original.

So it's just ridiculous to expect that something too imperfect can do the same thing as something perfect.


Also, this:

Currently, Rin's monologue is being fashioned as an "overall explanation for how higher dimensions work throughout the verse" and it is through that characterization that Avalon and the Moon Cell are being treated as x infinities above a universe, because the content of Rin's monologue is being applied to them as "the overall explanation for higher dimensionality" and this is why Servants are treated as having "4-D invulnerability" (because they are materialized souls.) This is not an accurate characterization of Rin's monologue.

Not touching the whole Rin's monologue part but want to point out how the servants invulnerability part coming from them being "materialized souls" is just wrong, if you just bothered to at least check the servant physiology page you would notice how their invulnerability actually come from Mystery (explicitly due to be divine mysteries), and if you searched a bit previous crts you would see the thread were it was made clear that their invulnerability is 4D because Mystery itself is 4D as things with Mystery are explicilty called higher dimensional (with one of such examples being souls that you yourself directly recognized in the op as higher dimensional, and even said that they are higher dimentional like the Moon Cell), so it never was due to them being "materialized souls" (as they aren't actually materialized souls to begin as show previously).

 

[DarkGrath]

I have more input I could give on this topic regarding the other sections, but for now, I would like to focus my concern here with the Avalon Low 1-C objections.

To start, I don't believe the core premise to the objection here holds weight. It doesn't particularly matter that a relevant statement occurred in one guidebook and not others; if the statement exists, and it is not directly contradicted, then I see no reason why we wouldn't factor it in to our indexing. This is a moot point on its own. What I am concerned about, however, is whether the statement is even indicative of Low 1-C in the first place. To quote the statement verbatim:

It was a Noble Phantasm reaching the realm of True Magic. Avalon shut out all physical interference, operation of parallel worlds, and multi-dimensional communication (up to the sixth dimension).

If I understand correctly, the way we've interpreted this statement is that the bracketed text is in reference to all three prior claims individually. In other words, what this statement is saying is that Avalon shut out all physical interference (up to the sixth dimension), operation of parallel worlds (up to the sixth dimension), and multi-dimensional communication (up to the sixth dimension). Blocking all "physical interference" up to the sixth dimension would probably qualify for durability up to this level, and suggest that destroying it would require physical interference above six dimensions.

Reading this with the context of the other guidebook statements in mind, however, I don't think this is how it was supposed to be interpreted. Only the third claim (multi-dimensional communication) refers clearly to any kind of multi-dimensionality, and the bracketed text about dimensionality being attached to that implies that it is intended to be read as a clarification of that claim. In other words, what this statement is saying is that Avalon shut out all physical interference, operation of parallel worlds, and sixth-dimensional (or below) communication. "Communication" is a broad term, but if this is all it amounts to, I don't see how this would be anything more than a range feat. I can't imagine how "communication" by any means would be enough to justify sixth-dimensional AP.

Where my doubts here form is in the fact that, to my knowledge, this is a translation of a guidebook rather than the original text. What I would like to know is what the original text says, and what a direct translation of that text would be. Semantic issues like these can come about purely as a result of dodgy translations, and my intuition tells me that the original text isn't so vague or interpretive one way or the other about whether the other claims are sorted under the sixth-dimensional label.

 

[Firestorm808]

I have more input I could give on this topic regarding the other sections, but for now, I would like to focus my concern here with the Avalon Low 1-C objections.

To start, I don't believe the core premise to the objection here holds weight. It doesn't particularly matter that a relevant statement occurred in one guidebook and not others; if the statement exists, and it is not directly contradicted, then I see no reason why we wouldn't factor it in to our indexing. This is a moot point on its own. What I am concerned about, however, is whether the statement is even indicative of Low 1-C in the first place. To quote the statement verbatim:



If I understand correctly, the way we've interpreted this statement is that the bracketed text is in reference to all three prior claims individually. In other words, what this statement is saying is that Avalon shut out all physical interference (up to the sixth dimension), operation of parallel worlds (up to the sixth dimension), and multi-dimensional communication (up to the sixth dimension). Blocking all "physical interference" up to the sixth dimension would probably qualify for durability up to this level, and suggest that destroying it would require physical interference above six dimensions.

Reading this with the context of the other guidebook statements in mind, however, I don't think this is how it was supposed to be interpreted. Only the third claim (multi-dimensional communication) refers clearly to any kind of multi-dimensionality, and the bracketed text about dimensionality being attached to that implies that it is intended to be read as a clarification of that claim. In other words, what this statement is saying is that Avalon shut out all physical interference, operation of parallel worlds, and sixth-dimensional (or below) communication. "Communication" is a broad term, but if this is all it amounts to, I don't see how this would be anything more than a range feat. I can't imagine how "communication" by any means would be enough to justify sixth-dimensional AP.

Where my doubts here form is in the fact that, to my knowledge, this is a translation of a guidebook rather than the original text. What I would like to know is what the original text says, and what a direct translation of that text would be. Semantic issues like these can come about purely as a result of dodgy translations, and my intuition tells me that the original text isn't so vague or interpretive one way or the other about whether the other claims are sorted under the sixth-dimensional label.

"Up to six" is in reference to the communication.

2004.01.30 | Fate/Side Materials​

https://www.tmdict.com/book/#fate-side-material?lang=en

Avalon​

アーサー王伝説における常春の土地、妖精郷の名を冠した鞘。
アヴアロンはギリシャ神話において、“不死の林檎”があるとされる島から連想されたという理想郷。
持ち主の傷を癒し老化を停滞させるだけでなく、真 名を以って開放すれば数百のパーツに分解し、所有者をあらゆる干渉から守りきる。
聖剣の鞘はアインツベルンがコーンウォールより発 掘し、アーサー王召喚の触媒として切嗣に与えたもの。
魔法の域にある宝具で、あらゆる物理干渉‘並行世界からのトランスライナー、多次元からの交信（六次元まで）をシャットアウトする。
セイバーがこれで引き篭もったら手におえない。

DeepL:
Avalon.
This sheath bears the name of the land of everlasting spring in the legend of King Arthur, the fairyland.
Avalon is an ideal world associated with an island in Greek mythology where the "Apple of Immortality" is said to be located.
Not only does it heal the owner's wounds and slow the aging process, but it also protects the owner from any interference by disintegrating into hundreds of parts when opened with the true name.
The sheath of the Holy Sword was excavated by Einzbern from Cornwall and given to Kiritsugu as a catalyst for summoning King Arthur.
It is a magical treasure that shuts out all physical interference, transfer from parallel worlds, and communication from multiple dimensions (up to six).

 

[DarkGrath]

The sheath of the Holy Sword was excavated by Einzbern from Cornwall and given to Kiritsugu as a catalyst for summoning King Arthur.
It is a magical treasure that shuts out all physical interference, transfer from parallel worlds, and communication from multiple dimensions (up to six).

I greatly appreciate this clarification, though in mind with how it has been presented by someone with a pre-existing stance on the revision, I would prefer to also receive verification of this translation from someone independent of this revision. This isn't an accusation of anything, to be clear - it's simply that any chance of bias, intentional or unintentional, affecting the way the passage has been translated should be removed.

 

[Deagonx]

I would prefer to also receive verification of this translation from someone independent of this revision.

Perhaps @Executor_N0 could be of assistance here.

It may be worthwhile to note that the word "dimension" actually appears twice in the original Japanese. One of them is likely removed in translation for redundancy, but I think that including both instances of it makes it more clear what the parenthetical clause refers to.

魔法の域にある宝具で、あらゆる物理干渉‘並行世界からのトランスライナー、多次元からの交信（六次元まで）をシャットアウトする。

Mahō no iki ni aru takara-gu de, arayuru butsuri kanshō ‘heikō sekai kara no toransurainā, tajigen kara no kōshin (roku-jigen made) o shattoauto suru.

A Noble Phantasm in the realm of magic, it shuts out all kinds of physical interference, transliners from parallel worlds, and communications from multiple dimensions (up to the sixth dimension). There are also a couple of ambiguous points in those phrases, as it could be read as such: "Communications from [multiple/other] dimensions (up to [six/sixth] dimensions).

 

[Regidian]

Received permission from @DarkGrath to comment to show a skill that can help with Avalon case.

In, Fate/Grand Order material I — Profile of Mash Kyrielight. We have the description of the skill Wall of Chalk Obscured in Time/ The Occasionally Hazy Wall of Chalk (時に煙る白亜の壁).

The description is:

A Defense Skill that allows one to arbitrarily put an Invincibility Effect on someone among their party. Their NP also goes up a little.

In accordance with its name of how it is called ‘Occasionally Hazy’, the target temporarily shifts out of the time axis in order to avoid attacks. If the rank was higher, the target could even phase through attacks, among other things, from a higher dimension. That principle is close to a certain Defensive Noble Phantasm that is used to target its own user.

The last part of the description is about Avalon (it's litteraly quote part of Avalon's game profile).

Now it show that Avalon can escape/phase through attack from higher dimmension. If the Avalon "up to 6 dimmension" was only about communication it would not allow to escape an attack like this.

So the up to 6th dimmension count physical interferance too.

I don't have the physical version of the Material I for the raw so if someone have it, it can help.

 

[Deagonx]

Here is the raw:

時に煙る白亜の壁
パーティー内から一騎、任意に無敵をかける防御スキル。NPも少しあが
時に煙る、という名の通り、対象の時間軸を一時的にズラす事で攻撃を回避させる。
ランクが高くなればは高次元からの攻撃もスルーできるとか。その原理はとある個人用の防御宝具に近い。

The crucial phrase comes out differently with machine translation (the current translation comes from Reddit, which doesn't mean it's wrong but nonetheless). Through Google I get this:

As the name suggests, it temporarily shifts the target's time axis to evade attacks.

It is said that the higher the rank, the greater the ability to pass through attacks from higher dimensions. Its principle is similar to that of a certain personal defensive Noble Phantasm.

In the Reddit translation it makes it sound as though if the ability had a higher rank, it'd be able to pass through attacks from higher dimensions. In this case it's communicated as a spectrum, the higher the rank the greater the ability to do so. I don't think this particularly changes our interpretation of Avalon (as all we have is that they have "similar" principles) and our focus should be on whether or not the phrasing provided justifies an interpretation of "up to six dimensions/up to the sixth dimension" as referring to anything other than the communications. Although we can have an independent translation provided if we feel that this point is particularly important.

Although, I am also making the argument that higher dimensionality very clearly doesn't refer to higher infinities of power and I think this is beneficial to that, given that Mash Kyrielight is currently 6-C on the wiki.

 

[Migue79]

I don't have the physical version of the Material I for the raw so if someone have it, it can help.

Here ya go. Directly from the materials.

I also punched in the kanji into DeepL and got the translator to match the Reddit post’s translations closely enough. Still, should get a translator of ours to proofread the translations.

 

[Deagonx]

Here ya go. Directly from the materials.

I also punched in the kanji into DeepL and got the translator to match the Reddit post’s translations closely enough. Still, should get a translator of ours to proofread the translations.

Can you share the DeepL Translation for that section?

 

[Executor_N0]

Perhaps @Executor_N0 could be of assistance here.

It may be worthwhile to note that the word "dimension" actually appears twice in the original Japanese. One of them is likely removed in translation for redundancy, but I think that including both instances of it makes it more clear what the parenthetical clause refers to.

魔法の域にある宝具で、あらゆる物理干渉‘並行世界からのトランスライナー、多次元からの交信（六次元まで）をシャットアウトする。

Mahō no iki ni aru takara-gu de, arayuru butsuri kanshō ‘heikō sekai kara no toransurainā, tajigen kara no kōshin (roku-jigen made) o shattoauto suru.

A Noble Phantasm in the realm of magic, it shuts out all kinds of physical interference, transliners from parallel worlds, and communications from multiple dimensions (up to the sixth dimension). There are also a couple of ambiguous points in those phrases, as it could be read as such: "Communications from [multiple/other] dimensions (up to [six/sixth] dimensions).

Most of the time when you are dealing with translation there are two/three general things you need to pay attention to. The first is the general meaning of the words on their own, the second is the approximated meanings in our language, and the third is the feedback of things from our language going to the other language and that shaping their use of their own terminology. A lot of the use in physics of certain terms is a close adaptation of words in Japanese that can imply the meaning in our language, but going into the breakdown in Japanese will also result in many different results to what is being implied.

Dimension, Dimensions, Dimensional, these are all the same thing in Japanese 次元 (Jigen).

多次元 has the kanji "多" that means "many," "multiple", or more directly the prefix "multi-" when used alongside other kanji like this and the kanji for "dimension". You can translate it generically as multiple/other dimensions.

So in this case saying "multi-dimensional" fits a lot of the way it has been used in Japanese in regards to 多 being used as a prefix like "multi-" is in English.

For "六次元まで" the "まで" (màdé) is literally "up to". 六 is "six". "次元" is dimension. You could say "Up to Sixth-dimensional", "Up to the Sixth dimension", "up to six dimensions", etc. Those are all basically the same thing in Japanese.

Of course, any work is free to use them in a multitude of meanings especially when the use of "Jigen" as a dimension is as open to interpretation as it's in English because of the feedback of works going from English to Japanese using that meaning (For example, Yu-Gi-OH Arc-V has its entire plot around the 4 dimensions and the eventual creation of a fifth dimension, those are clearly not talking about the number of spatial axes, but just dimensions as parallel worlds).

So, what is to be done after this is all under the context of the work itself and no amount of indivudal translations can really do anything about something like this.

 

[Deagonx]

So, what is to be done after this is all under the context of the work itself and no amount of indivudal translations can really do anything about something like this.

I understand, I appreciate your help. I know that there is an element of subjectivity, but it would be helpful if you could provide your perspective on two matters:

1) In this phrase, do you believe the parenthetical applies to everything listed, or just "communications from other dimensions"

魔法の域にある宝具で、あらゆる物理干渉‘並行世界からのトランスライナー、多次元からの交信（六次元まで）をシャットアウトする。

2) In this phrase, which translation do you believe is best: "If the rank was higher, the target could even phase through attacks, among other things, from a higher dimension." or "It is said that the higher the rank, the greater the ability to pass through attacks from higher dimensions." (Or feel free to render your own translation)

ランクが高くなればは高次元からの攻撃もスルーできるとか

 

[Migue79]

Can you share the DeepL Translation for that section?

From DeepL unedited:

Sometimes Smoking Chalk Wall.

A defensive skill that applies invincibility to one horseman from within the party, at will. Also increases NP slightly.

As the name suggests, it temporarily shifts the time axis of the target to avoid attacks.

If the rank is high enough, it can even pass through attacks from higher dimensions. The principle is similar to a certain personal defence treasure.

 

[Executor_N0]

1) Technically I guess it could be both, but considering the close proximity of the text itself, I think it's most likely a reference to "communications from other dimensions"

2) ランクが高くなれば高次元からの攻撃もスルーできるとか。

If the rank becomes higher (ランクが高くなれば)
ランク is Rank (It's written with Katakana, so it's literally what is from English)
高くis "higher". The first is the kanji for high, tall. The hiragana くturns it into an adjective.
なれば/成れば. if becomes. The 成れ refers to be, become, is. ば turns int into a conditional, so "if".

Valid translations could be, the higher the rank, if the rank is/was higher, etc. Basically, it gives the condition to what will happen if the rank is high.

高次元からの攻撃もスルーできるとか。

高次元 is higher dimension, から is the source of something, its place of origin. So "from a higher dimension".

攻撃 is an attack. スルー means "ignore", できる/出来る means to be able to do something.

Basically, is the rank is high, you can, for example, ignore atacks from a higher dimension.

 

[Deagonx]

1) Technically I guess it could be both, but considering the close proximity of the text itself, I think it's most likely a reference to "communications from other dimensions"

I agree, thank you for your input.

2) ランクが高くなれば高次元からの攻撃もスルーできるとか。

If the rank becomes higher (ランクが高くなれば)
ランク is Rank (It's written with Katakana, so it's literally what is from English)
高くis "higher". The first is the kanji for high, tall. The hiragana くturns it into an adjective.
なれば/成れば. if becomes. The 成れ refers to be, become, is. ば turns int into a conditional, so "if".

Valid translations could be, the higher the rank, if the rank is/was higher, etc. Basically, it gives the condition to what will happen if the rank is high.

高次元からの攻撃もスルーできるとか。

高次元 is higher dimension, から is the source of something, its place of origin. So "from a higher dimension".

攻撃 is an attack. スルー means "ignore", できる/出来る means to be able to do something.

Basically, is the rank is high, you can, for example, ignore atacks from a higher dimension.

Thank you for the thorough breakdown. So, this is better translated as a conditional (if, then) rather than a spectrum (higher rank = greater ability to ignore attacks)?

 

[Executor_N0]

Thank you for the thorough breakdown. So, this is better translated as a conditional (if, then) rather than a spectrum (higher rank = greater ability to ignore attacks)?

I would say so, I guess that the "higher the rank, the more" is on its own a way that the translator used to imply a conditional. There are many ways to try to translate that line, so I think that was just thought to be one of them (Most of them wouldn't think in the very nuanced way that is done here).