Naruto Upgrades

[Kepekley23]

Base Naruto << SPSM Naruto already debunks Base Naruto scaling to Momoshiki via that feat. I've already explained why.

Unless you want to argue Base Naruto has better durability than both SPSM Naruto and Susano'o Sasuke, you kinda have to accept that one single panel is indicative of nothing. It has always been like this here; this thread is becoming circular the more time goes on.

 

[I_am_myself_You_are_you]

light novel said Momoshiki effortlessly destroyed the world, and its entire population, for no other reason than to harvest its chakra fruit

So momoshiki Base Should be 5-B

We will see the stone and parts of the planet that momoshiki destroyed.

 

[Kepekley23]

One should note that such a feat is High 6-A, not 5-B.

 

[I_am_myself_You_are_you]

In the novel says that momoshiki destroyed the planet easily. Have a parts of the planet that momoshiki destroyed. planet without atmosphere. and look like momoshiki will destroyed other nearby planets,

I think he should get more points.

 

[Kepekley23]

Except he did not destroy it. It was still there with the corpses in the surface and dead plants everywhere. He only wiped its surface clean. That feat was just a casual High 6-A feat, nothing more, nothing less.

 

[I_am_myself_You_are_you]

He is are a Varies or not. ?

His talent It's not just that. But he can create parallel dimension from the dimension's kaguya, which has the Earth, Moon, and Sun.

In fact, he should get a score that he is scary than kaguya.

 

[HST_Master]

Surface Wipe is High 6-A

 

[BlackeJan]

Base Naruto << SPSM Naruto already debunks Base Naruto scaling to Momoshiki via that feat. I've already explained why.

Unless you want to argue Base Naruto has better durability than both SPSM Naruto and Susano'o Sasuke, you kinda have to accept that one single panel is indicative of nothing. It has always been like this here; this thread is becoming circular the more time goes on.

Or it goes like this:

SOSP Hokage Naruto > Fused Momo > Base Naruto (he was still keeping up and Fused Momo is easily above 5B and the mere fact that Naruto was staying in there means he's bascslly in the lower area of 5B

 

[HST_Master]

And to go even further Momoshiki didn't even do it all at once. The God Tree did and overtime until the planet dried out of life.

 

[Kepekley23]

It doesn't.

Base Naruto took that hit without any damage, so his durability is equal to Momoshiki's AP. Momoshiki can destroy Sasuke's Susano'o and harm SOSP Naruto, when he didn't harm Base Naruto in that scan.

So, Base Naruto = Momoshiki > SPSM Naruto.

Either you say Naruto gets weaker when he uses SPSM or you say, like we do with all the other feats that are like this in the wiki, that one single panel where the character takes a hit but is forced right after doesn't mean anything at all in regards to scaling. Naruto is not an exception.

 

[TheFinalOrder]

* Base Naruto being significantly amped by KCM3, which is stated to be weaker than SPSM and to have a huge chakra (weren't you the one who said it didn't have chakra?...)

• KM Naruto being stabbed by Sasuke's sword while SPSM tanks the exact same thing, except amped several times over

There definitely are feats suggesting so. Your only argument regarding this is the presumption that Naruto doesn't need to transform in order to use Six Paths chakra and that Sasuke doesn't need anything to, either. Both got debunked.

Kep, your misconception is that anything post Six Paths power ups are the same. Not to mention that statement is in regards to War Arc BM/BSM. You're arguing with a false equivalency.

-sigh-

I'll wait until im at a computer, I can't deal with this over the phone.

 

[BlackeJan]

@Kep

Whatcha mean he took no damage? he should had been hurt in the manga and especially in the anime he was getting destroyed but was still keeping up in Base. Why can't Naruto scale when he was still able to keep up even though he was getting destroyed. Kep-sama watch the anime ver and you'll see what I mean

EDIT: there r a lot of Profile where a weaker opponent was getting rekt Yet keeping up at the sane time but they stillscaked so why is this different then the others?

 

[Kepekley23]

He took no damage as seen here. Even after being kicked.

I've already told people why I believe he shouldn't scale several times, and elaborated on it. It makes for a twisted powerscaling.

And we have a wiki-wide policy of not scaling from stomp matches. And Naruto itself has never been upgraded based on single instances of scans. We link the entire VOTE fight as a reasoning behind Naruto and Sasuke's physical strength, for one.

 

[Omimi]

It's not even Low 5-B, it's more like 5-c

• 1.09 Zettatons even we cut in half it would be still Low 5-B

This is extremely misleading and out of context, Naruto by himself was unable to do anything to the Tenseigan.

He needed to channel his chakra through Hinata's, who had received Hamura's chakra and was the only one with the potential to do it, and even then she couldn't.

• we know why he was unable to do that cuz thier was a curse putt on Tenseigan by toneri so if anyone were to touch without hamura chakra it will absorb all of their chakra.

• and even if we cut 1.09 Zettatons in half it would be still Low 5-B.

This was SPSM Naruto.

• ucalc moon moving not creating no ? if so

• when moon moving feat happen he was in base so wouldn't that count as his base feat ?

A feat composed by one single single panel before he is forced into transforming. I've already explained why this is atrocious to use for scaling.

• still it is a feat so we can use it as supporting feat .there others who got scale from single panel so it shouldn't matter if we have problem it would be double standard(Of course I didn't mean to be rude) .

Not a physical feat. ( Base/rinnegan has sasuke 10.4 zt for moon moving feats )

• correct me if i am wrong i read somewhere in this wiki if u are not physically strong enough then u will killed by pressure or wont able to lift or moving heavy feat.
• Yhwach is 5-C for lifting feats (and all of his AP/ Lifting Strength /Striking Strength came from this calc) which is same as sasuke's moon lifting feat so sasuke should get it aswell.

Which would put Base Naruto above Momoshiki were it legit. We know he's not, so no.

• weakend fused momo

Sasuke's sword also stabbed through KCM Naruto in Boruto.

But wasn't Base Sasuke equal to Base Naruto?

• it was clearly state in the manga that naruto let his guard down.

While the sword had its piercing power massively amplified, and not a physical feat either

• why are u assuming that was massively amplified? i mean it was not heard for him to created in any mean.he did it casually.his Chidori Sharp Spear is casual attack(he casually used it against itachi,madara,danzo,oro and didara)

The same sword that did this also stabbed through KCM Naruto. So it doesn't scale to Base Naruto or Sasuke himself in SS, at all.

• it was clearly state in the manga that naruto let his guard down.

 

[Omimi]

It doesn't.
Base Naruto took that hit without any damage, so his durability is equal to Momoshiki's AP. Momoshiki can destroy Sasuke's Susano'o and harm SOSP Naruto, when he didn't harm Base Naruto in that scan.

bold never happen it was naruto who harm him unless u are talking kurama avarar vs Lava Golem and Lava Golem was created from/on god tree so it probably has some of it property


Lava Golem>kurama avarar =RSM naruto>fused momo>basse naruto>weakend fused momo

 

[BlackeJan]

But people in this wiki still be scaled even though they can clash and keep up + u only showed me that image but what about the next page?

 

[BlackeJan]

What chapter was the Naruto vs Momo fight? also can't we used anime ver? I mean it even shows who was more dominant in the fight

 

[Omimi]

What chapter was the Naruto vs Momo fight? also can't we used anime ver? I mean it even shows who was more dominant in the fight

http://*********.com/Manga/Boruto-Naruto-Next-Generations/008---You-Must-Act?id=338969

 

[TheFinalOrder]

I just want to say this, I've given it some thought and slept on it, and we really should not be fighting amoungst each other. We're all on the same team. In regards to my back and forth with Kep, neither of us are particularly in the "right" when it comes to being hostile or condescending towards one another.

I'll at least apologize for my part in this negativity, whether he does or not or even feels he has to. This shouldn't end up like Captain America: Civil War so to speak.

@Kep

I still disagree with you on this topic and will be responding to your response, but it shouldn't go past a civil dispute and I can see I have been the most aggressive. When I respond, I'll refrain from any aggressiveness and keep it simple.

 

[Kepekley23]

Okay. I'm glad you said that. Sorry if I was blunt or anything.

 

[AstralKing7]

ARE we gonna take the 5B sword legitimately tho??? Sasuke using this sword would make Kinshiki 5B again with physicals. The. Kinshiki would make Sasuke scale physically in durability because it wouldn't be circular reasoning when Kinshiki scales to the sword and not Sasuke.

 

[BlackeJan]

OK so I read the chapter and it's basically just like the anime....Base Naruto was losing but didn't get one shotted like the Kages then the moment he went SOSP he was beating Fused Momo (Naruto didn't get hit) so yes Base Naruto is 5B but in a lower area since that clash and even though he got kicked and took damage that basically how in most fighting anime when someone gets hit they take damage but it's not really shown since they end up going back to fight

 

[TheFinalOrder]

"I debunked all the physical feats you brought up. You have yet to reply to even a single word of what I said in that post"

You didn't actually do this. And I have responded to everything you've said above in response to me. If I didn't catch something, quote it and i'll respond, but i'm sure I've addressed all of your responses.

"Are we reading the same thing? Chidori Kusanagi is a legit jutsu Sasuke has, that is stated to amplify the piercing power of Sasuke's sword several times over. Said jutsu doesn't scale to Base Naruto at all, it is strong enough to harm even a serious SPSM Naruto"

This exact same scan proves what I said, he's not holding his sword, it's a Lightning Blade he created, not his Kusanagi blade amped with lightning. This was one of the 5-B feats for Sasuke that I posted that you claim doesn't exist and it does scale to Base Naruto.

"There is a sore lack of relevant-to-the-discussion arguments in the wall of text. I only highlight the important things, not irrelevant verbose."

That stuff you claim is irrelevant is proof backing my claim which you are ignoring. You can't dismiss proof without proof of your own.

"Can you at least read what I said correctly before jumping withou understanding a single word? I said he needs his Rinnegan in order to channel his Six Paths chakra. This is undeniable."

Kep, the same scan you are saying this about proves you wrong. You claim Sasuke can only channel Six Paths Chakra with his Rinnegan and this is false as he proceeds on panel to channel Six Paths Chakra into a Chidori while saying such. Sasuke can only use Mangekyo Abilities and Rinnegan Abilities with his Rinnegan. I.E:

• Amaturatsu

• Chibaku Tensei

• Susanoo

Not amping a Chidori, this has never been the case within the series and thus this is proven false. Sasuke's feats posted above prove this.

"I'm waiting for the post I made debunking them to get a reply from you instead of a handwave."

Again, I addressed everything you said, you may want to look above incase you missed something.

"What about Six Paths Chibaku Tensei? That feat is not physical either. Seems like you misunderstood my whole argument, again."

No, the misunderstanding is on your part. You claim Sasuke cannot use SIX Paths Chakra without his Rinnegan when his Rinnegan only allows him to use several abilities at the time of this fight, the only ones relevant of which are:

• Amaturatsu

• Susanoo

• Chibaku Tensei

The notion that Sasuke can only use SPC through his Rinnegan was proven false in scans above in this thread. SPCT being one of several feats proving he's 5-B outside of Rinnegan abilities with his Ninjutsu. Not even talking physically here, but I proved that as well above which still has yet to recieve a response.

"Next time check the actual chapter before jumping on what I say instantly."

The databook only states Sasuke awakened the Rinnegan from Hagoromo. This scans proves nothing.

• Indra+Ashura Chakra = Rinnegan Awakens

• Indra Alone =/= Rinnegan Awakens.

• SPC Alone =/= Rinnegan Awakening (Obito/Kakashi/Naruto as Proof) and Obito especially proves you wrong here as he is a direct descendant of Indra being an Uchiha. Thus, like Naruto with SPSM, the proof leads to the Rinnegan being a gift from Hags. Nothing more. This is based on facts and it still doesn't prove Sasuke needs Rinnegan to channel his SPC, which again was proved false above.

" "Kicking the Truth-Seeking Ball! Exceeding the Kurama Mode, a feat accomplished by a huge chakra" - Debunked."

Again, Base Naruto was gifted SPC and SPSM is a separate thing given to him. Yes, SPSM Naruto here has a "Huge Chakra" because Naruto overall has a Huge Chakra after gaining SPC.

Again, This is what is literally stated about SPSM:

"From the ancestor of shinobi, a divine state is gifted, touching the principles of all creation, commanding all things in nature

The qualities for obtaining this technique are strict studying and using a small gist in chakra kneading sensibility. An iron faith to face any hardship and the guts to never give up. Furthermore, the returning incarnation and fate's guidance ― this power is granted by the Sage of Six Paths only to someone who holds those. Those who activate the technique come to understand the flow of all life, gain a deep insight at the world's origins and are able to apply it on interacting allies without changing the way of things. This technique isn't something shinobi choose to experience. It is a technique that chooses shinobi."

Nowhere does it state in it's desciption about containing SPC or allowing the user to channel SPC and again, Sasuke being able to Use SPC outside of Rinnegan and Mangekyo Abilities proves the point, SPSM has nothing to do with SPC, same as the Rinnegan. And it's extremely misleading to try and use thisn when the databook doesn't even cover the last 10 chapters with NAruto and Sasuke's Final fight. So it's not debunked, only enhanced.

"The claim that Post-Hags Naruto is 5-B outside of SPSM has nothing backing it up."

• SPSM has Nothing to do with SPC (Proven)

• Base Naruto can physically contend with Sasuke and Momoshiki (Both of whom have 5-B Physicals through multiple feats which is proven)

• Base Naruto's Ninjutsu AP > Momoshiki's Physical 5-B Durability.

So, this notion it has nothing backing it up is quite false.

"Wait, so Six Paths Sage Mode is said to exceed Naruto with half of Kurama's Chakra and to have huge chakra, but it's irrelevant despite your claim that SPSM Naruto is not any stronger than Base Naruto?"

Reread my arguments, you are miscontruing them.

"I don't need to debunk something that is baseless aside from your own opinion. This is blatant reversal of the burden of proof. Even then, I've already done it in the post you replied to anyway."

You do have to because nothing I said was baseless and had plenty of proof backing it up. Proof you chose to ignore with baseless reasoning and you haven't actually debunked anything yet.

"Is Toneri stronger than Momoshiki?"

Yes. He's > Base Naruto and can fight KCSM Naruto who is 10x stronger with SM.

"Check above."

I did, nothing has changed.

 

[Amexim]

Is it not possible for Naruto to be 5-B but still 10x less than his KCSM? Because the last statement implied that KCSM is stronger than SPSM. The feats line up with this, afterall.

 

[AstralKing7]

What statement????

 

[IMadeThisOn8-1-2017]

OK so I read the chapter and it's basically just like the anime....Base Naruto was losing but didn't get one shotted like the Kages then the moment he went SOSP he was beating Fused Momo (Naruto didn't get hit) so yes Base Naruto is 5B but in a lower area since that clash and even though he got kicked and took damage that basically how in most fighting anime when someone gets hit they take damage but it's not really shown since they end up going back to fight

This doesn't make Base Naruto 5-B as explained several times already above:

Momoshiki and Kinshiki are literally held back by Shikamaru's Shadow Paralysis.

Kinshiki literally had to dodge an attack from Chojuro.

Chojuro could literally react and dodge an attempted blitz from Kinshiki. Then Chojuro even crossed blades with Kinshiki and took a hit from him.

Kurotsuchi then sends Kinishiki flying and into roots of the God Tree with a punch.

Kinishiki is pierced by a Jutsu from Chojuro.

Kinishiki is then incapacitated physically by Kurotsuchi's Jutsu with Kinishiki physically strained and in pain.

A flying Momoshiki is literally slower than Darui running on sand since Darui catches up to Momoshiki despite having started from further back.

Momoshiki had to defend himself from a strike from Darui and Momoshiki was still running away from Darui.

An angered upgraded Momoshiki only knocks out Darui with a kick.

Angered and upgrade Momoshiki has his punched blocked by Gaara and has to go around the sand to attack Gaara. Yet, Momoshiki only knocks out Gaara as well. Gaara reacts to that blitz to block as well.

Same Momoshiki kicking and only knocking out Chojuro.

Same Momoshiki punching and only knocking out Kurotsuchi. Absorbing the Chakra from several Jutsu fired from a Scientific Ninja Tool gave the same Momoshiki the chakra to cast a Shadow Paralysis Jutsu to physically restrain Chojuro, Kurotsuchi, Gaara, Darui, Base Adult Naruto and Rinnegan Sasuke.

A Vanishing Rasengan from Boruto not only knocks back this Momoshiki but it breaks his Jutsu as well.

The only thing that appears 5-B about either is Momoshiki Post-Upgrade in terms of physical durability (takes a hit from SPSM Naruto) and his Rock Golem creation (overpowered Kurama). He doesn't have anything else going for him about 5-B. There are more 7-A feats for Kinshiki and Momoshiki (pre upgrade) than 5-B feats.

 

[AstralKing7]

Bro Kep himself even disagreed with 7A Kage ƒÿæƒÿæ. Shikamaru is a horrible example as well cause they literally powered through that with ease

Bro you should stop like seriously. Your even using Boruto's Rasengan. That's not gonna downgrade Momoshiki to Boruto's level ƒñªÔÇìÔÖé´©Å

 

[AstralKing7]

That's hilarious tbh cause it's all literally PIS ƒÿæƒÿæƒÿæ

 

[Amexim]

IMade...

Goku one shotting a Saibaman and knocking it unconscious doesn't make Goku only 5-B. Using an entire fight that was PIS is bad. Picking apart everything in that fight as if those individual situations combine somehow make the entire fight not PIS isn't going to work. The ENTIRE fight, and every exchange between Kage and Momoshiki is PIS, INCLUDING that Gaara situation— which would imply everyone, even SPSM Naruto is 7-A if that "feat" against Upgraded Momo could ever mean anything. Which it doesn't. Because it's all PIS, WIS, or just bad writing designed to emphasize how Powerless the Kage are and how strong Momoshiki is.

 

[BlackeJan]

Y'all do know that Kinshiki left that sealing like he was nothing (jumped out of it) and why in the world y'all do the shadow possession Jutsu scene even though Momo was casual about that whole thing an Kinishiki didn't see the shadows so he was probably casually swinging his sword (he even went against Sasuke to the point in order to move out the way he had to use his Rinnegan)

 

[BlackeJan]

Everything u basically just said was PIS like I don't understand that's not applied but it is in other series....I mean they even captured Bee w/ Hachibi (even though it was off screen) but it was THOSE 2 by themselves that did it and no one else....

 

[TheFinalOrder]

@Imade

• I'll address their Physicals indepth Saturday. Tomorrow I have work all day and I'm heading home now. If i tried to address it now over my phone, i wont be able to post scans to prove the points ill be making.

 

[Omimi]

imade

everyone got annoyed with your downplay

 

[IMadeThisOn8-1-2017]

You can get annoyed, but you can't deny consistent feats of display of 7-A physicals.

PIS can only be attributed to scenes that had to occur for the plot to continue forward, that is why it's called Plot Induced Stupidty. None of these scenes needed to happen due to the plot, the plot could have proceeded without them occurring. These feats are also highly consistent with each other, consistency is not WIS, a lower-end outlier nor PIS.

Y'all do know that Kinshiki left that sealing like he was nothing (jumped out of it)

That's false, Momoshiki pulls Kinishiki out and Kinshiki visibly struggles under the Jutsu.

and why in the world y'all do the shadow possession Jutsu scene even though Momo was casual about that whole thing an Kinishiki didn't see the shadows so he was probably casually swinging his sword (he even went against Sasuke to the point in order to move out the way he had to use his Rinnegan)

You could have realized you're wrong about this if you clicked the link.

Kinshiki was literally in the midst of attacking Sasuke when Shikamaru incapacitates Kinshiki in the middle of swinging.

I mean they even captured Bee w/ Hachibi (even though it was off screen) but it was THOSE 2 by themselves that did it and no one else....

You should really keep up with the discussion since this was already addressed before:

We don't see how it goes down. Just that Gyuki is pinned to walls by blades (which isn't impressive since Gyuki has a weakness to blades) and then Momoshiki amps himself with pills, absorbs Gyuki's Bijuudama and fires it back at twice the power.

So, not Base Momoshiki either.

 

[BlackeJan]

@IMade

1). Ok then nvm I thought he jumped out. Still is PIS since he fought Sasuke and made him have to use RinneSharigan

2). Do u know how many times in anime that a characters is caught by something cause it was meant as a surprise? just look how Hit got Jiren in a time space lock or how Natsu from FT was hit by a spell that made him not able to move, it doesn't need mean that Hit scales to Jiren or Sting scales to Natsu who both overcomes it like it was nothing. Actually I wanna see more pages after that cause even Momo was casual about the shadow Jutsu

3). I'm sorry but what??? By that logic that means a kid with a sword can defeat Gyuki. It doesn't even matter even how it goes down but the main fact is that Bee was taken down by those two so that's already enough right there

 

[KLOL506]

Sasuke uses a Rinnegan w/ Tomoe tho, RinneSharingan is red.

 

[I_am_myself_You_are_you]

And to go even further Momoshiki didn't even do it all at once. The God Tree did and overtime until the planet dried out of life.

There is no evidence that he has used God Tree to destroy it. light novel said For no other reason than to "harvest" it, this world, and those who dwelled upon it, had been effortlessly destroyed.

momoshiki changed the population and all living things In planet becomes. God tree

Somewhere on an unidentified world.

Its doomed sun burned red, spitting synchrotron radiation with each death rattle, bathing its russet-colored terrain in the brilliant hues of an aurora.

In the heart of a ruined metropolis brimming with countless corpses, a small figure dressed in nobleman's finery, veil unsullied by even a mote of dust, sat atop a massive tree stump and gnawed upon something.

At first glance he appeared to be a handsome youth, but he wore a ruthless expression that oozed malice and vile cunning, and from his head grew a pair of horns that curved forward, dispelling any notion that he was human. Both of his eyes were white -- Byakugan.

"Hmm... For a world with such a low civilization level, I suppose the fruit was adequate."

The prize he had seized was the Divine Tree that had grown in these lands... now cruelly cut down and bereft of its fruit.

For no other reason than to "harvest" it, this world, and those who dwelled upon it, had been effortlessly destroyed.

"So, how did it go?"

 

[I_am_myself_You_are_you]

@IMade

Do you understand the meaning of outlier? If you do not understand You will see many unreasonable points.

@kep

If naruto base is 5-B physique It will not be a surprise if it is 5-B because naruto can tank damage momoshiki Fusion., Rasengan is a powerful chakra in naruto base or Energy in the body. No wonder if Naruto base can kill momoshiki., But Naruto's physical ability to fight momoshiki Can not fight and resist with momoshiki, makes him need use SPSM.

physique

Momoshiki Fusion >= Naruto SPSM

Momoshiki Fusion >>> Naruto Base

Energy in the body It is what makes him able to kill momoshiki.

-Tank Physical attack And Survived from kicking of momoshiki without taking any serious damage

1 2 3

Please do not use momoshiki kinshiki naruto comparison with boruto and 4kage.

P.S. In addition, momoshiki base can create a parallel dimension With the power of self. This will be a 5-B score for momoshiki base. this

 

[Amexim]

IMade, you can't use a fight covered in WIS/PIS (it was necessary for the plot, because it shows how weak the Kage are in comparison to the enemy. Come on.). You can't pick it apart and treat each part as an individual showing in the story when the entire fight is bad. The ENTIRE FIGHT is faulty, whether it's PIS, WIS, or just plain outliers and stupid shit. If the entire fight is garbage, then Gaara blocking Fused Momo is also garbage. Especially when half of the shit used is Momo asserting his dominance on all of the Kage.

 

[HST_Master]

@I am

The God tree sucks up all the energy and life to produce Chakra fruit. It keeps doing this until all life on the planet is dead and uninhabitable. It's how the God Tree works.