Naruto and Sasuke scaling justification for moon level tier from chibuku tensei

[7th_Ki'oon]

So, in my opinion theirs little justification for all the retroactive power scaling that came with madara and his rinnigan eye upgrades, that didn't seem to increase his destructive capacity, I actually think that perfect sussano'o madara was far more powerful than Sage madara. Which subsequently scale to both Naruto and sasuke, and further to their final clash, which makes no sense to be moon level. Because otherwise it should destroy a good portion of the planet. A lot of the scaling is shaky inference.

I also, don't really understand the speed calculation for naruto, but I'll Trust that it's reasonable.

Also isn't most of the destructive scaling, from chibuku tensei? (as does pain) The sage gets his moon level tier from it, but he and Kaguya don't any real destructive feats, ergo shouldn't he and everyone else scale from Juubi Kaguya?! Which in of itself maybe meaningless, because he and Hamura could've just been too fast to be hit by a bijuu Dama.

But dragon Ball unlike Naruto has good scaling feats for example piccolo blowing up the moon that is a solid feat that scales to everyone in the series, Thus, it can be inferred that Goku can blow up a planet, as can most dragon Ball characters. Which gives a solid lowest common denominator, for the franchise as a whole.

Personally, I can get behind and understand country level naruto and sasuke, but anything higher, I would perceive as having no basis for such. Especially because no one in the series has tanked Bijuu Dama detonation. So the durability as a whole, is also shaky.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Fairly certain this has been discussed multiple times before and was taken care of.

 

[7th_Ki'oon]

Wasn't that primarily the scaling for Kaguya, and how that would scale to naruto and Sasuke, not just weather the moon feat should scale to everyone whom is said to be near the Sages power,

Even though, the series has frequent examples of jutsu's determining power, in a way that is counter intuitive as to, how the scaling is performed on this site.

The question would remain of how strong these characters would be if the Chibuku Tensei scaling was removed, since it's an outlier, that isn't representative of the characters tier. Especially, since naruto verse durability is lower than one piece, frequently and overall.

 

[TheFinalOrder]

• Naruto and Sasuke scale to country level in base based on Naruto's The Last feat from what I've read. (Him tanking the explosion generated by his chakra while near empty and passing out)

• Naruto in Kyuubi Chakra Sage Mode scales to Multi-Continent+ for Tanking/Over Powering Toneri's ultimate attack which split the moon. Sasuke at least scales to Naruto. (Note: That is ine of Naruto's weaker forms)

• Naruto and Sasuke scale to Moon+ for creating a moon sized Chibaku Tensei which yields Small Planet level energy for creation, iirc.

• Madara is stated to have stronger chakra than Juubito before absorbing the Shinju and could tango with Sasuke and Naruto. This his Moon+ rating.

• Kaguya had more chakra than Naruto and Sasuke and rutinely stomped them early own, gave them trouble though she taxed her chakra and was stated to be vastly stronger than prior. She is stated to be the strongest bt her son who is Small Planet Level for giving Naruto and Sasuke the power to do Six Paths CT, thus her rating.

I don't understand your skepticism.

 

[7th_Ki'oon]

The moon plus rating is nullified, since it was given to naruto and Sasuke by the sage, as a one use jutsu, and the fact that it seem to take none their chakra to make. Also, even if it did, it shouldn't quantify them to moon level, because they show no destructive capacity of such, this is further backed up by the boruto movie, where in their most destructive feats are island level.

Energy output doesn't equivalate to AP in naruto , unlike dragon Ball and bleach where it does.

Also, my skepticism is primarily around the tier of Revived Sage power naruto and Sasuke,

I couldn't care less for the tier scaling of the last, unless you incorporate Storm 4 Utlimate techniques as a tertiary Canon, as consideration for the last Sasuke, which would make him without Sussano'o, a solid country level+ character.

 

[7th_Ki'oon]

I'd also want consideration to give itachi and sunsui island level via perfect Sussano'o, as Kishimoto created designs for them, for generations or storm 4,I can't remember which.

As that is what kakashi has.

 

[Jesterofgames]

@7th Ki'oon

Un pretty sure the games are non canon

 

[TheFinalOrder]

@7th

• For starters, it's not true that energy output doesn't translate to AP in Naruto. Ebisu explains it plus it's shown multiple times.
• Second, AoE =/= AP
• Third, the seals were a requirement for the jutsu. The chakra they kept, Hagoromo took the seals back only. And that just goes to show that SIx Paths Chibaku Tensei doesn't tax their reserves. That simple.

 

[DodoNova2]

In any case they would have Moon level + as they have Match Kaguya and managed to inflict damage

 

[7th_Ki'oon]

. And that just goes to show that SIx Paths Chibaku Tensei doesn't tax their reserves. That simple.
Or perhaps, it never took any chakra in the first place, because again naruto and Sasuke's final clash should've decimated the plan if that was the case. And if that's the one reason, that gives them moon+ tier, and nothing else in the series to back it up. Then, that's flawed logic.

But Kishimoto designed the Sussano'o, so those designs are canon, also Sasuke is allowed to use itachi's abilities in vs match up's, so wouldn't the same apply to itachi and sunsui.

Why would naruto and Sasuke have to be the same tier to inflict damage, when AP and durability aren't parity in naruto unlike many other series, like one piece where that's true, also Sakura doesn't receive Moon level for harming Kaguya, nor does Kaguya herself have any destructive feats to justify that AP, outside of a Kamikaze technique and her bone ash, that circumvents durability.

Even through she has all of the Juubi's chakra, she seems to be far weaker than madara or Obito.

 

[DodoNova2]

Well she is Superior to Hagoromo and Hamura for having created the moon

"Stated to be more powerful than even the Sage of the Six Paths, overpowered Naruto's attacks, easily destroyed Sasuke's Susanoo, and changed the environment of an entire planet"

I do not understand the problem with the AP/Dura and the comparison with Bleach OP and DB, it works all the same

Sakura = PIS

 

[7th_Ki'oon]

When Kishimoto first started his career, he wanted to do a series about magic, and it often shows, jutsu are more magic like than the magic in fairy tail. The Sage creating the moon is one key, such example. Jutsu like summoning and Sussano'o are more magic than elemental kinesis.

The Bijuu Damage, is such a jutsu where in the technique gets its power from it nature, over the resource demand to use it. Unlike Cero or Kamehameha, which do increase in AP, with greater energy which has been evidenced repeatedly throughout the respective series.

Outside of the moon, the sage has no other feats, expect what can be inferred and scaled from Tonrei, Hashirama and Madara.

And I see, that my designs are canon statement is being ignored.

 

[TheFinalOrder]

@7th

Hagoromo gave him their chakra. no jutsu can be used without chakra. And again, AoE =/= AP. And no, you're basically saying giving them the rating based on the feat is faulty logic, and I ask, based on what, sir? You haven't provided any proof to not scale them from it. If you don't want to accept their feat and ask for another, they scale directly from Hamura and Hagoromo's feat which is the same.

• 2 same feats which produce the same result

• One person split his power between 2 people to achieve the same result.

And your entire argument is built up on your beliefs of AP/Durability in Naruto. As I have already told you, AoE=/=AP (In fiction as a whole), so your Argument is faulty simply based on that. As for the other stuff (Your comparisons to other Verses), they have long since been debunked, and completely shut down.

You're simply asking for VsBW to not scale Naruto and Sasuke, and by extension, Hagoromo and Hamura from 2 verifiable and calcable feats with no proof on your behalf, with beliefs that have been debunked inverse and by others before. That simply isn't going to happen without the proof.

 

[Dariel_Senju]

Basically this is: Naruto and Sasuke aren't even worthy to be such a tier because ... I don't know ... because I say it; Without any calculations that certify what you say is like this you aren't going to take their paraphrases seriously.

Since you mention that no one in the series has tanked a Bijudama I have already realized that you really don't have a solid idea of what you talk about the series. Please, if you are going to try to create a serious debate about the power of any series to provide evidence and calculations that certify what it says, don't just throw random things hoping you get it right.

 

[RoyGundam]

It all comes down to AoE =/= AP

And lots of people (pretty much all the Top and God Tiers) have tanked stuff that's a lot worse than simple Bijuu dama (which, in it's normal form is merely a 7-A to High 7-A level attack)

 

[Lord_Hades_Prince_Of_Darkness]

Did the chibaku tensei that Naruto and Sasuke did even tax their chakra?

 

[7th_Ki'oon]

Doesn't seem like it, since they were perfectly fine in their final clash, and not once was it brought up that they were tired from Kaguya, so it would be logical to assume that it didn't use any of there chakra.

 

[Lord_Hades_Prince_Of_Darkness]

Doesn't seem like it, since they were perfectly fine in their final clash, and not once was it brought up that they were tired from Kaguya, so it would be logical to assume that it didn't use any of there chakra.

I think they only used chakra to initiate the technique and left it.

 

[Dzhindzholia]

If it is like you said,Nagato could easily do country or large continent lvl chibaku tensei easily,CT requires chakra,it cant made itself out of nothing.

 

[Lord_Hades_Prince_Of_Darkness]

If it is like you said,Nagato could easily do country or large continent lvl chibaku tensei easily,CT requires chakra,it cant made itself out of nothing.

I know it requires chakra. But when the person is creating it I do not know whether they continuously put chakra into the CT until they make it reach the size that the user wants it to be or whether the user inputs a certain amount of chakra into the CT and however much chakra they put in is how big the CT is.

For instance did Naruto and Sasuke tax their chakra until the CT reached moon size or did they put a moon level amount of chakra into the CT so that the CT goes by itself until it goes to moon size.

 

[Gwynbleiddd]

Personally i think that Chibaku Tensei shouldn't be used to justify their general stats, it's a special jutsu that they could only use 1 time and it was the only thing that could stop Kaguya.

Just look at Nagato.He hasn't shown anything close to High 6-C without CT so he is on that level with it and his other attacks being judged by their own feats.

Six Paths users are a similar case with their best feats being around Continent to Multi-Continent level but for the sake of having them at Moon level we threw logic out of the window and choose to accept the general it uses chakra reasoning.

I mean Kirin uses a lot of chakra so every technique that uses a lot of chakra should be that strong.(kappa)

But that's just my opinion and i know most people won't agree with it.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, for what it is worth, I think that you usually make sense.

 

[Soldier_Blue]

Actually, Gwyn makes sense to me. Chakra in Naruto is not like Chi in Dragon Ball or Reiatsu in Bleach or even Ethernano in Fairy Tail. A ninja's AP with one jutsu does not necessarily reflect the AP of other jutsu and does not necessarily reflect their durability as well.

 

[Blanked]

@Actually it's exactly like in FT lol.

And i totally agree with Gwynn's reasoning.

 

[7th_Ki'oon]

Is this, common sense I'm seeing, I'd thought everyone would be too biased.

 

[7th_Ki'oon]

So the downgrades will be made, with the sage Chibuku Tensei not scaling linearly for the series with an asterisk. Wouldn't this make momoshiki island level, unless Storm 4's the last Sasuke ultimate jutsu feat is considered and then scaled into boruto Sasuke's fight with kinshiki?! (who also busts a cliff with a lions barrage.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r72QEsAdBHQ

Which should retroactively scale, to moon seal? Sasuke who could only do the same with perfect sussano'o, whilst the last did it with a senjutsu chidori.

Speaking of which, island level for itachi and shunshi via perfect Sussano'o, that kishimoto designed for the storm games.

 

[Reppuzan]

@7th

There's no need to get snappy when users actually start agreeing with you.

That statement was uncalled for and inappropriate.

 

[7th_Ki'oon]

I would disagree, since everyone buried their heads in the sand, for 2 years, so Naruto and Sasuke could be moon tier, regardless of the lack evidence supporting or the fact that they didn't decimate the planet when they fought, which should've happen if Indara's arrow was moon+ level. And momoshiki getting his ass handed to him with ease, repeatedly by naruto and Sasuke and not even showing continent level feats, despite being labeled by this rather reputable and reasonable site as moon+ level.

 

[Jesterofgames]

Ok I have no Side in this Though sad to see Naruto (well Madara specifically) get downgraded Gonna have to step in here and say "the fact that they didn't decimate the planet when they fought, which should've happen if Indara's arrow was moon+ level." This is not how AP works. Several Moon and planet busters fight in fiction But the planet isn't decimated Because if there attack potency, and yes This does apply to Explosions as well See majin vegeta Who is over Planet level by a vast Margin self destructing And creating just a crater and not turning earth space dust

 

[Reppuzan]

@7th

You're acting in violation of our Discussion Rules. No matter how valid of an argument you're making, you will be shut down if you do not heed this warning.

 

[LordGinSama]

I agree with the downgrade.

 

[RoyGundam]

Does this affect Kaguya as well ? Kaguya is currently Planet level and Sasuke and Naruto's Tiers are also influenced by the fact that they fought her

 

[Soldier_Blue]

I agree with the downgrade. But Reppuzan and Jesterofgames both make good points.

1. The "is this common sense I'm seeing" and "everyone buried their heads in the sand" comments were unwarranted. And besides, lot of popular verses have gone with unquestioned stats for a long time (Star Wars, Bleach, One Piece, Fairy Tail, Dragon Ball).

2. That's not how AP works. Blasters in Star Wars are 9-A but they at best punch few foot wide holes in walls. Anyone who isn't fodder in Bleach is at least 7-C or higher but they usually destroy large buildings at best. Probably the best example of focused AP is Dragon Ball (where casual planet busters usually showcase destruction ranging in AOE from city block to city sized in their fights).

 

[Antvasima]

Well, given that this is an important series, it probably cannot be downgraded based on just a few people agreeing. We would need much greater staff consensus.

In addition, there are practical problems in terms of how the profiles should be rescaled, and to what values. Should the Moon-creating feat be rated as a separate one-time-only statistic for example?

We are also short on staff members who know the series well enough to properly rescale it, and Lina may or may not handle a revision of it, so there are some uncertainties right now.

Reppuzan is correct in that the original poster needs to maintain a polite tone in any case.

 

[Joseph619]

Wall of text

They could get a 5-C with Chibaku Tensei key, and something lower (6-B/6-A) for a calced feat. Chibaku Tensei is an exclusive jutsu definitely doesn't scale to other jutsu and there's no reason to believe other regular jutsu has same AP has Chibaku Tensei. I agree with Gwyn too

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. What are their other highest calculated feats?

 

[7th_Ki'oon]

I don't disagree, digimon is particularly weird, but naruto was notably egregious, because it all came from sealing Kaguya, but dragon Ball had piccolo and frieza for their credibility.

And I apologise, for my rudeness.

But my inquiry was dismissed, until a day ago, when lord hades revived the thread and asked me, now it seems as if everyone agrees with my point, and Naruto is seemingly getting a revaluation.

But when naruto throws a bijju Rasen shuriken and destroys a good portion of the moon, you can upgrade away. And I'll have no have no qualms about.

 

[Antvasima]

Again, there are several practical problems with this. It would probably be best if Gwynbleiddd (or maybe Soldier Blue) creates a separate thread that I can then highlight for further input.

 

[7th_Ki'oon]

Chibaku Tensei is an exclusive jutsu definitely doesn't scale to other jutsu

The Chibaku Tensei that sealed Kaguya was a one time deal, but Sasuke can still use CT, pretty damn well, considering he used it on a scale seen by Madara, when he sealed the bijuu, and then used them to power Indara's Arrow, the question remains that did he lose CT when he lost the Moon seal. Outside of Storm 4, he hasn't used it. In canon.

 

[Dzhindzholia]

Dont even mention Naruto games,they have nothing to do with the original series,that wiki uses the manga as canon.Sasuke can use any rinnergan ability,but his CT is nowhere near Madaras,at least he didnt show that.Also,wouldnt they still be at least high6a scaling from The Last?