Naruto: 8 Gates Speed Multiplier Downgrade

[KingTempest]

Sorry Jvando

https://vsbattles.com/threads/might-guys-and-rock-lees-at-least-5x-multiplier-with-gates.54347/

Via our multiplier standards, it says that we need direct statements for multipliers.

Now it says that the first gate is utilizing 100% of the muscular energy when it usually utilizes 20%, so the strength is there. It even talks about muscle power and its limits, support.
It also says that speed is enhanced.

But the issue is that speed isn't stated to be amped on the same extent. It doesn't say "it utilizes 100% of its speed when it usually utilizes 20%", as speed is something that isn't really linear when trying to measure speed from force applied per movement and allat.

It basically never says speed is multiplied.

Strength multiplier stays, speed multiplier goes.

 

[AlexSoloVaAlFuturo]

No more 1st gate Kakashi blitzing people.

 

[BlastX]

Ah, I imagined something bigger.

But yeah, according to the standards it should be downgraded.

 

[LordTracer]

Oof

Yeah, seems fine.

 

[KingTempest]

Ah, I imagined something bigger.

That's coming later today

 

[Deceived3596]

no

 

[BlackeJan]

Iirc the reason for the 5x cause we had to compromise

 

[OneBleachHurricane]

nice one

 

[KingTempest]

Iirc the reason for the 5x cause we had to compromise

Compromise with this L

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Muscular energy is also used for speed though, so your muscular energy increasing by 5x should also increase your speed by 5x. It's not like speed is drawn from gas energy or something.

 

[ShrekAlmighty]

FRA

 

[KingTempest]

Muscular energy is also used for speed though, so your muscular energy increasing by 5x should also increase your speed by 5x.

no

Strength and speed do not provide linear boosts to each other.

Which is why someone can train to be 2x stronger but they won't automatically be 2x faster.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

no

Strength and speed do not provide linear boosts to each other.

Which is why someone can train to be 2x stronger but they won't automatically be 2x faster.

What part of your body powers speed if not the muscles?

(Debatable)

 

[KingTempest]

What part of your body powers speed if not the muscles?

(Debatable)

It's like it doesn't matter what thread we're in, you fail to understand this concept.

Muscles and speed are tied together.
They are not linear.

You can get 2x stronger and not 2x faster.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

It's like it doesn't matter what thread we're in, you fail to understand this concept.

Muscles and speed are tied together.
They are not linear.

You can get 2x stronger and not 2x faster.

Why does your muscular energy getting 5x greater equate to a linear increase in strength then? Just because muscles and AP are more closely associated? Even though speed also comes directly from your muscles, making it basically just as directly tied?

 

[KingTempest]

Why does your muscular energy getting 5x greater equate to a linear increase in strength then? Just because muscles and AP are more closely associated? Even though speed also comes directly from your muscles, making it basically just as directly tied?

You gotta learn how to argue better.
It's not "muscles", it's "muscular energy", aka the energy in your muscles, AKA the strength you output.

So you wanna downgrade the AP then too? Is that it?

Like I don't understand why you always say "so why is it like this for that?" like we won't just downgrade that too

 

[MinatoSparkle]

You gotta learn how to argue better.
It's not "muscles", it's "muscular energy", aka the energy in your muscles, AKA the strength you output.

? That...doesn't make a difference. Muscular energy is what controls your body's movements. If anything it seems more connected to speed than strength in these examples.

So you wanna downgrade the AP then too? Is that it?

Like I don't understand why you always say "so why is it like this for that?" like we won't just downgrade that too

Because there's so much inconsistency and double standards and creating a consistency from it is better. And if people agree that it should be a certain way for something and that makes them agree to that being applied to a different thing then that's cool.

 

[KingTempest]

? That...doesn't make a difference. Muscular energy is what controls your body's movements. If anything it seems more connected to speed than strength in these examples.

Specifically, examples of muscular energy include lifting a bag to carry it on your shoulder, running, pushing an object, and kicking a ball. Muscles turn chemical energy into movements.

These are all things about strength.

Because there's so much inconsistency and double standards and creating a consistency from it is better. And if people agree that it should be a certain way for something and that makes them agree to that being applied to a different thing then that's cool.

There is no inconsistency.
You are just ignorant of how they work, and you call it inconsistency because of that.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

These are all things about strength.

...You literally highlighted running...And lifting a bag is moving it, and kicking a ball is combat speed. And it talks about movement in multiple instances.

There is no inconsistency.
You are just ignorant of how they work, and you call it inconsistency because of that.

This CRT is literally based on the double standard of the Gates being accepted as a proportionate strength/speed amp and that not being accepted for SM.

 

[ssgengar]

Room for debate on both sides honestly, wouldn’t sekizo balance this out though? For just guy obviously

But the issue is that speed isn't stated to be amped on the same extent. It doesn't say "it utilizes 100% of its speed when it usually utilizes 20%", as speed is something that isn't really linear when trying to measure speed from force applied per movement and allat.

It basically never says speed is multiplied.

One thing though I’m curious about, if speed and strength are both considered muscular energy, what part of the explanation prioritizes strength if the multiplier just refers to muscular energy

 

[KingTempest]

...You literally highlighted running...And lifting a bag is moving it, and kicking a ball is combat speed. And it talks about movement in multiple instances.

...no ******* way that's what you got from those.
Those are things you do with strength.

You run by applying your strength to the ground to move. How do you think muscles impact speed?
That doesn't mean "2x muscular energy = 2x speed".

You run by exerting the energy in your muscles to constantly move your body.

All because speed is involved (speed is involved in EVERYTHING), doesn't mean speed is the main thing being spoken about

This CRT is literally based on the double standard of the Gates being accepted as a proportionate strength/speed amp and that not being accepted for SM.

No

Room for debate on both sides honestly, wouldn’t sekizo balance this out though? For just guy obviously

https://vsbattles.com/threads/sekizo-5-times-speed-multipler.52134/page-2#post-1717459

One thing though I’m curious about, if speed and strength are both considered muscular energy, what part of the explanation prioritizes strength if the multiplier just refers to muscular energy

Muscular energy is strength
Muscular energy influences speed
2 completely different things

 

[Deceived3596]

I disagree with this thread, and i might possibly explain why i disagree with it, but i'm currently too lazy to do so right now

 

[MinatoSparkle]

...no ******* way that's what you got from those.
Those are things you do with strength.

You run by applying your strength to the ground to move. How do you think muscles impact speed?

If you're gonna be that specific, then what would entail something directly affecting speed and not strength which leads to increased speed?

No

Did you not say you need to downgrade the Gates after seeing the Gates proportionate amp argument?

Also, the Gates aren't stated to amp strength specifically by a multiplier. They exponentially amp Guy's "abilities," which would mean strength and speed (and probably other things), and it's stated the 8th Gate increase ones physical abilities/faculties by dozens of times. There's no differentiation between the amp to strength and speed, and is actually implied to be the same.

 

[KingTempest]

If you're gonna be that specific, then what would entail something directly affecting speed and not strength which leads to increased speed?

A statement of speed alone being increased and not strength.

Did you not say you need to downgrade the Gates after seeing the Gates proportionate amp argument?

My intention does not matter, so get that out of here

Also, the Gates aren't stated to amp strength specifically by a multiplier. They exponentially amp Guy's "abilities," which would mean strength and speed (and probably other things), and it's stated the 8th Gate increase ones physical abilities/faculties by dozens of times. There's no differentiation between the amp to strength and speed, and is actually implied to be the same.

What does this have to do with the first gate

 

[ssgengar]

https://vsbattles.com/threads/sekizo-5-times-speed-multipler.52134/page-2#post-1717459

Fair I guess, didn’t know it was discussed already. Can’t say I totally agree but oh well

Muscular energy is strength
Muscular energy influences speed
2 completely different things

This sounds weird, muscular energy runs through the body. If the statement just said power or something then yeah gg but that isn’t the case here. If muscular energy is referring to strength and speed, and they’re at a certain level at 20%, then going up to 100% should amp both stats accordingly, no?

 

[KingTempest]

Fair I guess, didn’t know it was discussed already. Can’t say I totally agree but oh well


This sounds weird, muscular energy runs through the body. If the statement just said power or something then yeah gg but that isn’t the case here. If muscular energy is referring to strength and speed, and they’re at a certain level at 20%, then going up to 100% should amp both stats accordingly, no?

no, because when it comes to speed, energy and speed are both tied together (if one increases then the other increases), but they don't increase to the same level.

Usain Bolt's top speed is 10.44 m/s, the average human is like 6 m/s

If the average human ends up amplifying their muscles to twice its strength (can lift twice what it lifted before), it doesn't mean that speed is going to be multiplied by 2 (doesn't mean that they'll be faster than usain bolt)

Speed isn't like strength where it's strictly energy output. It's technique, energy output, stamina, motion, specific movement, and so many more things.
Basically, they both go up, but they're not both linear

 

[MinatoSparkle]

A statement of speed alone being increased and not strength.

But that doesn't really work, because your strength is what controls your speed. Punching harder is punching faster. You can't just completely separate the two.

My intention does not matter, so get that out of here

It does. It's made to make the forms consistent, making my original statement true.

What does this have to do with the first gate

More of the Gates is just increasing the amp, it's not making the properties of the form different (I guess with the exception of the 2nd Gate which has an extra ability in the form of healing). We know the 1st Gate increases your muscular energy/chakra by 5x, leading to a great increase in strength and speed, not really distinguishable which one is affected more. We know the 6th Gate amps your abilities exponentially, not your strength, not your speed, but your abilities in general. We know the 8th Gate amps your physical abilities by dozens of times. It's just very consistent for the Gates to be a proportionate strength and speed amp.

no, because when it comes to speed, energy and speed are both tied together (if one increases then the other increases), but they don't increase to the same level.

Usain Bolt's top speed is 10.44 m/s, the average human is like 6 m/s

If the average human ends up amplifying their muscles to twice its strength (can lift twice what it lifted before), it doesn't mean that speed is going to be multiplied by 2 (doesn't mean that they'll be faster than usain bolt)

Speed isn't like strength where it's strictly energy output. It's technique, energy output, stamina, motion, specific movement, and so many more things.
Basically, they both go up, but they're not both linear

The difference with that is that irl your increases are going to come from the kind of training you do, whereas with an amp it's not like you're trying to increase one of your stats specifically, it's just an all around amp to your whole self.

 

[KingTempest]

But that doesn't really work, because your strength is what controls your speed. Punching harder is punching faster. You can't just completely separate the two.

One should also consider which statistic a multiplier applies to. If a character just gets 10 times more powerful, then that doesn't necessarily means that all of its statistics are multiplied by 10. For example could a fiction in principle have a character become a 10 times more dangerous fighter just by increasing his combat technique, with only minor increases in stats. A more classical scenario is one where a characters strength increases by some multiplier, but their speed is untouched.

Yes. You can.

And you're a deep breath from derailment since you're bringing up shit not even involved with the topic at hand.

Lee gets faster. He's not stated to get 5x faster.

It's that simple.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Yes. You can.

And you're a deep breath from derailment since you're bringing up shit not even involved with the topic at hand.

It is involved...We're talking about how muscular energy amps you.

Lee gets faster. He's not stated to get 5x faster.

It's that simple.

Yes, and that's why I'm using the Gates in general being a proportionate amp to prove it. It'd be like if (note the if, I'm not saying this is the case) SSJ1 was stated to be a proportionate amp to strength and speed, same with SSJ3, SSJG, and SSJB, but since it's not explicitly stated for SSJ2 that isn't. It just doesn't make sense.

 

[TioKill]

Muscular energy is also used for speed though, so your muscular energy increasing by 5x should also increase your speed by 5x. It's not like speed is drawn from gas energy or something.

As someone with basic understanding on anatomy, you're incorrect. It's not linear whatsoever, and using 100% of your muscular energy wouldn't make your movement through physical space proportionally faster. Blood flow also is mostly responsible for your muscular response, and it certainly isn't increased by a factor of 5, otherwise Rock Lee's heart would explode, since he ain't made of rubber.

 

[TioKill]

But that doesn't really work, because your strength is what controls your speed. Punching harder is punching faster. You can't just completely separate the two.

Your strength have little to no participation in your speed whatsoever, and it isn't proportional. Bro must think Usain Bolt could square up with anybody on the planet.

 

[KingTempest]

TioKill's my new best friend

 

[KingTempest]

It is involved...We're talking about how muscular energy amps you.

No, I'm talking about how it's not linear

Yes, and that's why I'm using the Gates in general being a proportionate amp to prove it. It'd be like if (note the if, I'm not saying this is the case) SSJ1 was stated to be a proportionate amp to strength and speed, same with SSJ3, SSJG, and SSJB, but since it's not explicitly stated for SSJ2 that isn't. It just doesn't make sense.

Horrifyingly shitty false equivalence

 

[ssgengar]

If the average human ends up amplifying their muscles to twice its strength (can lift twice what it lifted before), it doesn't mean that speed is going to be multiplied by 2 (doesn't mean that they'll be faster than usain bolt)

Genuinely curious, if the muscles exerted enough energy to double your speed, how would strength be affected?

 

[Deceived3596]

I don't believe since we aren't given a "direct" statement about speed gaining a proportional amp means it doesn't actually gain a proportional amp. The statement within itself is referencing "muscular energy", which is just the chemical energy that muscles use to energize physical movements. Physical movements by definition would require both physical strength and speed to occur, so both are closely linked to each other. And both are relatively linear to each other, as in someone who is average in physical strength will also most likely be average in speed as well. Of course excluding specialized examples.

So if Lee can only utilize 20% of his muscular energy in base, but when he activates the 1st gate it allows Lee to use 100% of it, he'd gain a 5x amp towards his ability to utilize muscular energy, which is the energy that energizes physical movements, which is physical strength + speed. You'd require a higher preponderance of evidence to assume "muscular energy" is only referring to physical strength when by definition it isn't. A 5x amp towards this energy would inherently be a 5x amp to both speed and physical strength without further contradictory context, which hasn't been given yet.

Given the argument I've laid out above i disagree with this thread's premise, it should be a 5x amp towards both physical strength and speed, not just physical strength. (Also this will probably be my only actual comment on this topic since i don't care enough about Naruto to debate for it, so don't expect a reply back if you actually do reply)

 

[TioKill]

Genuinely curious, if the muscles exerted enough energy to double your speed, how would strength be affected?

We're not going to devolve into stacking calculations in real life and then trying to apply it to fiction. Futhermore, you're not fabricating five times the energy out of the blue, you are actually using more muscles and having weight on your punches.

No, I'm talking about how it's not linear

Horrifyingly shitty false equivalence

Just shut the conversation down with a simple: "If something is not stated to multiply speed by an specific factor, we will simply not accept it as an specific multiplier".

It's really not that deep, and they're blatantly trying to extend the debate needlessly without abiding by the requirements of the wiki.

 

[BlackeJan]

Compromise with this L

Oi don’t look at me. It was between Damage and Jvando lol

 

[Deceived3596]

Oi don’t look at me. It was between Damage and Jvando lol

Mans just admitted to getting oreo'd by Damage and Jvando, actually double stuff'd.

Down atrocious.

 

[BlackeJan]

Mans just admitted to getting oreo'd by Damage and Jvando, actually double stuff'd.

Down atrocious.

There’s literally nothing I can say to explain it better as u got me trapped in a corner

Well played

 

[Deceived3596]