Naruto: 8 Gates Speed Multiplier Downgrade

[MinatoSparkle]

 

[CiscoTheSoto]

I disagree with the downgrade. There's no reason to assume that the energy provided by the releasing of chakra would apply solely to physical strength, since the chakra is sending energy to all the muscles, which propel the user forward via leg muscles. And it's been shown that the Gates increase speed drastically as well as strength, so I think it's rash to assume that the 5x increase of the 1st Gate wouldn't apply here. Every time Lee's been shown using the First Gate, he's basically moved faster than his opponent could react to, as shown with Sasuke and Dosu, which serves as further supporting evidence of the increase in speed with the First Gate.

 

[KingTempest]

You failed to address the argument. Muscular energy refers to your speed and strength from the energy within your muscles. By definition it means strength and speed (from your muscles), so by definition increasing the available muscular energy 5x, would increase the speed and strength you can exert with your muscles by 5x.

This isn’t a vague statement like “his fighting strength increased 5x”, it’s literally saying his muscular energy, which the definition of which is just speed and strength from muscles, increased 5x. You’ve dismissed the argument without addressing or debunking the definition. It’s not that speed is loosely involved, speed and strength make up the term by definition.

Muscular energy does not refer to your strength and speed from the energy within your muscles. It refers to the energy within your muscles. If anything, it references chakra.
You're just unknowingly piggybacking the breathing example I gave.

What you pulled up wasn't the definition of muscular energy. That "running lifting" shit wasn't a definition. It was examples of the applications of muscular energy, and if I kick the ground in a moving motion (AP), I'll run.

This isn't a vague statement at all. That's the one thing we agree with. It's a very clear statement referring to the percentage of MUSCULAR STRENGTH, since GUY said "Strength in his muscles".

If anyone were to employ anything even close to 100% the strength in his muscles, the muscles themselves themselves would quickly break down... so the brain sets a limit on how much of our power we are willing and able to use. The secret of this technique is in overriding that internal cranial safety feature, giving the wielder access to all of his own chakra. Dangerous as it is, the result is the release of enough muscle power to enable the wielder to perform a series of grueling and demanding tasks at an incredible speed... pushing his own body to the limits and safety... and beyond.

The primary growth is not the enhancement of speed.

The statements are referring to the enhancement of strength, which in turn enhance speed. This is not a direct enhancement of speed.

When we see more explanations of the first gate and the lotus, they reference strength. Strength being amped. The strength being increased allow him to use higher level taijutsu since his taijutsu is based on high speed.

They constantly maintain limits on the amount of chakra flowing through the body... limits that the lotus uses chakra to forcibly override... enabling the user to draw strength that is dozens of times his usual level... even if the user's body is destroyed in the process.

Shit, I was even an advocate of the first gate being a "dozens of times" amp, since that 100% shit isn't even linear when it comes to his strength being increased.

His speed is not stated, implied, or shown to be amplified to the same level of his strength.

Shit I'd take down that 5x altogether and use the 24x+ amp for his strength if it means cutting this bs statement out since you and everyone else are misinterpreting it.

 

[KingTempest]

It's saying his abilities are amped exponentially with the 6th Gate, meaning it's (Guy's abilities) x (exponential amount), or in other words, his abilities as a whole are amped by an amount. If it wanted to separate them it would've given a different word for one of them. Then it'd be (Guy's AP) x (larger exponential amount) and (Guy's speed) x (smaller exponential amount). Something like "It works by exponentially increasing all of Guy's abilities, and increasing his strength to an incomprehensible level." That sounds like a pedantic argument, but if the word exponential had been replaced with say 30x, then it would be as clear as ice, and there's no real difference besides the fact that exponential isn't giving a set value. It's still an all-around amp. "It works by opening up to six of the Eight Gates and increasing Guy's abilities by 30x." Like if you're looking at this you wouldn't question if it's the same amp to strength and speed. So why does the value not being given change the equation? The word exponential is like an x-factor in the equation but it doesn't change the general structure. From 10(30)+10(30) to 10x+10x.

First of all, the same argument as above applies. The amp is being applied to Guy's physical abilities as an entity, it's not applying amps to each of Guy's components. And secondly, the fact that the amp is several dozen times for all of Guy's physical abilities on its own supports them being close to each other. The range of several dozen isn't that large. Even if Guy's speed was amped by 3 dozen times (minimum of several) while his strength was amped by 6-7 dozen times (which I'd argue is near the top of what you could consider "several"), the strength to speed ratio is still quite close. So even if you call the above argument an attempt at fancy schmancying the same thing I've already said (even though it's not), this still exists.

Your entire argument is headcanon

You got a statement of a vague "dozens" statement and a vague "exponential" statement and you're trying to say "that's linear".

And alongside that, that argument is association fallacy. Each gate affects the body differently.

So stop pulling that asshat example out as if it's infallable. It's infuriating that you keep sending these stupid ass examples that aren't even the same and you ignore all context of the page that I keep telling you to read all because "oh they're not equal so all or nothing".

I disagree with the downgrade. There's no reason to assume that the energy provided by the releasing of chakra would apply solely to physical strength, since the chakra is sending energy to all the muscles, which propel the user forward via leg muscles. And it's been shown that the Gates increase speed drastically as well as strength, so I think it's rash to assume that the 5x increase of the 1st Gate wouldn't apply here. Every time Lee's been shown using the First Gate, he's basically moved faster than his opponent could react to, as shown with Sasuke and Dosu, which serves as further supporting evidence of the increase in speed with the First Gate.

Jesus help me

Nobody said that the gate applies solely to physical strength at all. I said the multiplier does. It is our standard to require a statement of speed being multiplied for speed to be multiplied.

So please spare me with the "speed's enhanced so it should be 5x"

I find myself in agreeance with GokuSparkle. Either keep or get rid of both. Muscular energy being 5x doesn't mean you can punch 5x stronger. The same thing applies with speed. Here's the thing, we can use our brain to know what the author is implying. There is a clear implication that when muscular energy is multiplied by 5, so is their physical stats. This includes both strength and speed. However if we are taking the literal route than both shouldn't be valid.

"Use our brains" oh brother.
Same author that said the first gate makes him dozens of times stronger with the gate that lets him use 20% to 100% of his strength right?

Well I don’t have a bone in this argument but a 5x speed increase would actually result in a 25x power increase because Kinetic energy uses speed squared

If the statement is meant to be interpreted that they have 5x more power it is unlikely that speed was amped by 5x because they should be much stronger.

We don't allow KE like that

 

[DivineAura44]

"Use our brains" oh brother.
Same author that said the first gate makes him dozens of times stronger with the gate that lets him use 20% to 100% of his strength right?

Then drop both. You are making this harder than it needs to be, stop being a drama queen. Matter of fact your argument literally only gives a contradiction for strength which is the one you wanna keep. If you already noticed this contradiction the fact you didn't wanna take the off the profile is dumbfounding.

 

[KingTempest]

So here's a better argument.

Since GokuSparkle said all or nothing, let's do it then. That 100% shit out the window.

The First Gate amplifies Lee by dozens of times via releasing the mental inhibitors of that stupid ass technique.
First Gate 24x multiplier.
Speed, unquantifiably amped.

Since all or nothing is what yall are agreeing with right?

 

[KingTempest]

Then drop both. You are making this harder than it needs to be, stop being a drama queen.

Lmfao I'm a drama queen because I have an interpretation now? Fomf

You said that the author had a clear implication. Now when the author's other blatant statement contradicts your "brain", I'm the one making it harder than it needs to be

 

[DivineAura44]

Lmfao I'm a drama queen because I have an interpretation now? Fomf

You said that the author had a clear implication. Now when the author's other blatant statement contradicts your "brain", I'm the one making it harder than it needs to be

No. You are a drama queen for this blatant exaggeration of peoples words you are using. Stop acting so smug.

The author did have a clear implication, it just contradicted a different statement they made. You haven't disproved anything.

 

[KingTempest]

lmao

 

[DivineAura44]

lmao

Ah S Tier argument, you got me I'll concede.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Your entire argument is headcanon

How is it headcanon? I explained it all.

You got a statement of a vague "dozens" statement and a vague "exponential" statement and you're trying to say "that's linear".

You literally ignored my whole point about the several dozen times thing which isn't at all related to anything you've addressed.

And alongside that, that argument is association fallacy. Each gate affects the body differently.

How?

So stop pulling that asshat example out as if it's infallable. It's infuriating that you keep sending these stupid ass examples that aren't even the same and you ignore all context of the page that I keep telling you to read all because "oh they're not equal so all or nothing".

They really are.

Which page are you talking about?

So here's a better argument.

Since GokuSparkle said all or nothing, let's do it then. That 100% shit out the window.

The First Gate amplifies Lee by dozens of times via releasing the mental inhibitors of that stupid ass technique.
First Gate 24x multiplier.
Speed, unquantifiably amped.

Since all or nothing is what yall are agreeing with right?

The page says "they" (AKA the Gates) enable the user to draw dozens of times greater strength, not the 1st Gate specifically.

Also all or nothing means AP and speed

 

[mal]

i will said 2x faster because madara said it fast while madara easily toying w 7th gate but minato+gaara+6th gate rocklee + kakashi still can react to it

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Also strength doesn't even mean AP specifically most of the time. It's a general term used to denote combat ability. When someone says one character is stronger than another they're definitely not trying to imply they would get blitzed and just have higher AP.

 

[CiscoTheSoto]

Jesus help me

Nobody said that the gate applies solely to physical strength at all. I said the multiplier does. It is our standard to require a statement of speed being multiplied for speed to be multiplied.

So please spare me with the "speed's enhanced so it should be 5x"

I just feel it's odd to assume that the multiplier wouldn't apply to speed. I feel if Kishimoto wanted to make that point, he would've specifically mentioned it only increased physical strength by x5 times. Personally, I don't want to argue with you about this cuz I really respect you and am happy to still see you on this site.

 

[KingTempest]

How is it headcanon? I explained it all.

Your explanation is SHITTY

You literally ignored my whole point about the several dozen times thing which isn't at all related to anything you've addressed.

All you said was "it talks about them together so they're linear"

Which page are you talking about?

The one that the multiplier talks about.

The entire ******* page brings up strength and yall dug yall hands into yall asses and pulled out "speed's equal".

The page says "they" (AKA the Gates) enable the user to draw dozens of times greater strength, not the 1st Gate specifically.

Also all or nothing means AP and speed

Limits the LOTUS override not the gates you can't read now

The whole thing on the bottom is talking about the first gate, which is why he's bringing up the lotus

Also strength doesn't even mean AP specifically most of the time. It's a general term used to denote combat ability. When someone says one character is stronger than another they're definitely not trying to imply they would get blitzed and just have higher AP.

Stop, because this wiki has accepted for this stupid ass verse time and time again that when there's no other context, strength = ap.

There is no context except power and energy applied.

I don't care about "it doesn't mean AP most of the time", cause when I say it you guys act like I'm an idiot.

Strength = AP without further context. The context here says AP. So it's AP.

I just feel it's odd to assume that the multiplier wouldn't apply to speed. I feel if Kishimoto wanted to make that point, he would've specifically mentioned it only increased physical strength by x5 times.

Our standards need him to say speed. What we think of him doesn't matter. He needs to say speed for a multiplier to go through.

Personally, I don't want to argue with you about this cuz I really respect you and am happy to still see you on this site.

I'm about to leave it

 

[DivineAura44]

Also strength doesn't even mean AP specifically most of the time. It's a general term used to denote combat ability. When someone says one character is stronger than another they're definitely not trying to imply they would get blitzed and just have higher AP.

Well I mean not in this case.

 

[Greatsage13th]

We're not going to devolve into stacking calculations in real life and then trying to apply it to fiction. Futhermore, you're not fabricating five times the energy out of the blue, you are actually using more muscles and having weight on your punches.


Just shut the conversation down with a simple: "If something is not stated to multiply speed by an specific factor, we will simply not accept it as an specific multiplier".

It's really not that deep, and they're blatantly trying to extend the debate needlessly without abiding by the requirements of the wiki.

Agreed

 

[Mazdoesstuff]

Agree FRA, don’t think there is enough to prove the speed boost is linear

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Muscular energy does not refer to your strength and speed from the energy within your muscles. It refers to the energy within your muscles. If anything, it references chakra.
You're just unknowingly piggybacking the breathing example I gave.

What you pulled up wasn't the definition of muscular energy. That "running lifting" shit wasn't a definition. It was examples of the applications of muscular energy, and if I kick the ground in a moving motion (AP), I'll run.

This isn't a vague statement at all. That's the one thing we agree with. It's a very clear statement referring to the percentage of MUSCULAR STRENGTH, since GUY said "Strength in his muscles".


The primary growth is not the enhancement of speed.

The statements are referring to the enhancement of strength, which in turn enhance speed. This is not a direct enhancement of speed.

When we see more explanations of the first gate and the lotus, they reference strength. Strength being amped. The strength being increased allow him to use higher level taijutsu since his taijutsu is based on high speed.

Shit, I was even an advocate of the first gate being a "dozens of times" amp, since that 100% shit isn't even linear when it comes to his strength being increased.

His speed is not stated, implied, or shown to be amplified to the same level of his strength.

Shit I'd take down that 5x altogether and use the 24x+ amp for his strength if it means cutting this bs statement out since you and everyone else are misinterpreting it.

Permit me to respond to this tomorrow haven’t read it yet so maybe I’ll agree maybe not who knows

 

[KingTempest]

Permit me to respond to this tomorrow haven’t read it yet so maybe I’ll agree maybe not who knows

if i don't rage close it by tomorrow then by all means

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Your explanation is SHITTY

Thanks, but that's not a counterargument.

All you said was "it talks about them together so they're linear"

Ok so you just skimmed over that. "And secondly, the fact that the amp is several dozen times for all of Guy's physical abilities on its own supports them being close to each other. The range of several dozen isn't that large. Even if Guy's speed was amped by 3 dozen times (minimum of several) while his strength was amped by 6-7 dozen times (which I'd argue is near the top of what you could consider "several"), the strength to speed ratio is still quite close."

The one that the multiplier talks about.

Oh I read that. That doesn't really change anything about my arguments though as I made them with that in mind.

The entire ******* page brings up strength and yall dug yall hands into yall asses and pulled out "speed's equal".

Uh...speed was mentioned a ton too in association with the Gates. I don't think that helps your argument at all.

Limits the LOTUS override not the gates you can't read now
The whole thing on the bottom is talking about the first gate, which is why he's bringing up the lotus

No, that's literally another point. They were actually talking about opening the Gates in preparation for the Reverse Lotus. Guy literally said that "incidentally" only the 1st Gate is necessary for the Forward Lotus, as if it's unconnected to the statement about the Gates amping by dozens of times.

Stop, because this wiki has accepted for this stupid ass verse time and time again that when there's no other context, strength = ap.

There is other context. The opening of the Gates allowing for high speed attacks and combos and being a key part of its strength is mentioned many times. If anything, speed is associated more with the Gates than strength, making it even weirder that . "The result is the release of enough muscle power to enable the wielder to perform a series of grueling and demanding tasks at an incredible speed" and all this, especially the last one which directly associates the Gates' power as "actually" being its speed.

I don't care about "it doesn't mean AP most of the time", cause when I say it you guys act like I'm an idiot.

You're being your own worst enemy. I agree with you on that and then you're not accepting it cause other people don't accept you saying it.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

if i don't rage close it by tomorrow then by all means

Don’t make me grab deceived and take you to them huts in Bahrain

 

[KingTempest]

Thanks, but that's not a counterargument.

Ok so you just skimmed over that. "And secondly, the fact that the amp is several dozen times for all of Guy's physical abilities on its own supports them being close to each other. The range of several dozen isn't that large. Even if Guy's speed was amped by 3 dozen times (minimum of several) while his strength was amped by 6-7 dozen times (which I'd argue is near the top of what you could consider "several"), the strength to speed ratio is still quite close."

A dozen is 12.

2 dozen and 3 dozen is 24 to 36. How is that not large.

Oh I read that. That doesn't really change anything about my arguments though as I made them with that in mind.

Uh...speed was mentioned a ton too in association with the Gates. I don't think that helps your argument at all.

No, that's literally another point. They were actually talking about opening the Gates in preparation for the Reverse Lotus. Guy literally said that "incidentally" only the 1st Gate is necessary for the Forward Lotus, as if it's unconnected to the statement about the Gates amping by dozens of times.

No, because the statement that it says is saying that the lotus is overriding the limits, then he says "the lotus opens only the first one".

There is other context. The opening of the Gates allowing for high speed attacks and combos and being a key part of its strength is mentioned many times. If anything, speed is associated more with the Gates than strength, making it even weirder that . "The result is the release of enough muscle power to enable the wielder to perform a series of grueling and demanding tasks at an incredible speed" and all this, especially the last one which directly associates the Gates' power as "actually" being its speed.

The primary growth is not the enhancement of speed.

The statements are referring to the enhancement of strength, which in turn enhance speed. This is not a direct enhancement of speed.

And you sent a bunch of scans talking about every gate except the first gate.
This crt is about the multiplier of the first gate

 

[MinatoSparkle]

A dozen is 12.

2 dozen and 3 dozen is 24 to 36. How is that not large.

It's not large proportionately. Also it can't be 24. Cause the word "several" is used, which is at least 3. So the multiplier for speed is at least 36x, and the multiplier for AP is still several dozen times, wherever in that range it may be. Even if you highball it and say several means 7 dozen times for AP, that's still 96x, which is less than 3x a greater amp for AP than speed.

No, because the statement that it says is saying that the lotus is overriding the limits, then he says "the lotus opens only the first one".

Yeah, the Reverse Lotus, not the Forward Lotus. "The Gates act as limiters that must be released in preparation for performing the Reverse Lotus." Then after that, he mentions incidentally in relation to the Forward Lotus.

And you sent a bunch of scans talking about every gate except the first gate.
This crt is about the multiplier of the first gate

No, the Forward Lotus is the first gate. "The reasons why Lee can use this ultra-high level, special Taijutsu is none else than his off-the-charts speed and his thorough understanding of Taijutsu's ABCs."

 

[PrinceofPein]

if i don't rage by tomorrow

I'm about to leave it

KT arguing with a verse supporters alone and getting frustrated
Me:-

 

[Damage3245]

Tmk this has nothing to do with the 2nd gate? And Occam's Razor for the second point, if I said speed and power increased 5x, the simplest assumption would be speed 5x and AP 5x.

If that was what was said, sure, but that doesn't seem to be the case.

 

[RanaProGamer]

Yeah, disagree with the OP. Arc and Goku seem to have the much stronger arguments here so I’m leaning on not removing the multipliers.

 

[BlackeJan]

Idk what y’all keep arguing. It’s better off getting more staff to see what goes through and whatnot

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Idk what y’all keep arguing. It’s better off getting more staff to see what goes through and whatnot

️

Muscular energy does not refer to your strength and speed from the energy within your muscles. It refers to the energy within your muscles. If anything, it references chakra.
You're just unknowingly piggybacking the breathing example I gave.

What you pulled up wasn't the definition of muscular energy. That "running lifting" shit wasn't a definition. It was examples of the applications of muscular energy, and if I kick the ground in a moving motion (AP), I'll run.

This isn't a vague statement at all. That's the one thing we agree with. It's a very clear statement referring to the percentage of MUSCULAR STRENGTH, since GUY said "Strength in his muscles".

The primary growth is not the enhancement of speed.

The statements are referring to the enhancement of strength, which in turn enhance speed. This is not a direct enhancement of speed.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/15724088_Relationship_between_strength_qualities_and_sprinting_performance

If you look at tables 3 and 5 and the discussion of this paper, you will see they cite a Pearson correlation that is nigh order unity (about |1|). The closer a Pearson correlation value is to |1|, the closer the relationship is to linear. The paper itself is a study between muscular strength and sprinting speed. So yes muscular strength and your short burst speed are practically linearly correlated. Meaning yes muscular strength = strength and speed (at least short burst speed aka combat speed). Hence, my original claim is substantiated.

When we see more explanations of the first gate and the lotus, they reference strength. Strength being amped. The strength being increased allow him to use higher level taijutsu since his taijutsu is based on high speed.

Shit, I was even an advocate of the first gate being a "dozens of times" amp, since that 100% shit isn't even linear when it comes to his strength being increased.

His speed is not stated, implied, or shown to be amplified to the same level of his strength.

Shit I'd take down that 5x altogether and use the 24x+ amp for his strength if it means cutting this bs statement out since you and everyone else are misinterpreting it.

I’d simply disagree and argue that Kakashi is speaking specifically about the Lotus being dozens of times not Gate 1 in general.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

If that was what was said, sure, but that doesn't seem to be the case.

I disagree science (check the article I linked KT) backs up that muscular strength ~ speed and power fairly linearly in youth.

 

[The_Alxhemist]

In addition to what Arc said I'd also like to point out that that Muscular Hypotrophy boosts strength and in turn speed

 

[KingTempest]

Damn. Aight.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/15724088_Relationship_between_strength_qualities_and_sprinting_performance

If you look at tables 3 and 5 and the discussion of this paper, you will see they cite a Pearson correlation that is nigh order unity (about |1|). The closer a Pearson correlation value is to |1|, the closer the relationship is to linear. The paper itself is a study between muscular strength and sprinting speed. So yes muscular strength and your short burst speed are practically linearly correlated. Meaning yes muscular strength = strength and speed (at least short burst speed aka combat speed). Hence, my original claim is substantiated.

Your article is flawed, and unfortunately it's not tied to the topic at hand.

You see although the article does accurately measure the strength of a person in correlation to their speed, that's not what we're discussing here.
It measures the average jumping force to the average speed for a run.
The point of the thread is to discuss whether the growth of a person's muscle strength is directly linear to their growth in speed.
And I shouldn't have to explain why someone else being 2x stronger and 2x faster than you doesn't mean that you getting 2x stronger makes you 2x faster.

The article measures the sprinting speed of athletes for the speed portion, and then it measured the potential energy per second of athletes jumping with weights.
Besides the fact that page 5 pretty much says that the short bursts were correlated close to each other because of the method they used to measure strength

The high correlation between MDS/weight and 2.5 m time (r=-0.86) may be explained by the specific nature of this strength measure relative to the sprint start.

Running, jumping, things like that, not using something like punching or kicking, which would've been better for a strength measurement, since we're using this for a multiplier on how hard a person punches.

Now you said

Meaning yes muscular strength = strength and speed (at least short burst speed aka combat speed).

And for the short burst we can assume it's the lowest measured speed and distance used, 2.5 meters.

On page 17 of your document (check bottom corners for page numbers), it says this for the short bursts, or the 2.5 meter run

It is interesting that the best three predictors of starting performance were all measures obtained during the concentric jumping test, and the measures produced under SSC conditions (CMJ and DJ) resulted in relatively low correlations (r=-0.51 and -0.09 respectively). This suggests that reactive strength or SSC abilities are relatively unimportant for starting. In opposition to these results, Mero et al.2 reported that a DJ and CMJ correlated more highly with starting performance than a squat jump that involved only concentric contractions. The correlation between absolute strength (Fmax) and 2.5 m time was - 0.72, which was not significant at the 0.05 level (Table III). The correlation between strength relative to bodyweight (Fmax/weight) and 2.5 m time was smaller (r = -0.44, p>0.05), suggesting that both absolute and relative maximum strength may not be important for starting ability.

So for short bursts (combat speed), it's not correlated.

It's usually correlated for things like movement speed for long distances.

And since the manga breaks this logic, since Rock Lee who's 46.6 kg can already move faster than the eye can see with pure speed alone, already breaking the chart, it's not wise to even use science for things of this nature.

But I'll entertain it.

Now when it comes to the correlation of muscle strength and velocity, we can tell in every graph on the internet involving muscle strength and speed that they aren't linear.

In fact, I haven't seen a single non-curved graph or any chart signifying that 2x muscle energy or muscle strength = 2x speed.

This is probably why everybody in here keeps ducking the Usain Bolt Example.
Usain Bolt isn't even twice as fast as the average human, yet the average human training their muscles to lift twice as much doesn't make them faster than Usain Bolt.

I’d simply disagree and argue that Kakashi is speaking specifically about the Lotus being dozens of times not Gate 1 in general.

The Lotus is a piledriver. That isn't amping the strength at all. The strength is strictly from the gate, so no.

 

[Damage3245]

The "dozens of times his usual level" refers to the Gates overall, not just the 1st Gate.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Damn. Aight.

Your article is flawed, and unfortunately it's not tied to the topic at hand.

You see although the article does accurately measure the strength of a person in correlation to their speed, that's not what we're discussing here.
It measures the average jumping force to the average speed for a run.
The point of the thread is to discuss whether the growth of a person's muscle strength is directly linear to their growth in speed.
And I shouldn't have to explain why someone else being 2x stronger and 2x faster than you doesn't mean that you getting 2x stronger makes you 2x faster.

Im not sure I follow your last sentence? Lee isn’t simply getting 5x stronger, he's getting his muscular strength/available muscular energy increased by 5x. It's not a thing of so and so got X stronger so they must be X faster. You're equating the statement to directly mean AP, when by definition it does not.

The article measures the sprinting speed of athletes for the speed portion, and then it measured the potential energy per second of athletes jumping with weights.
Besides the fact that page 5 pretty much says that the short bursts were correlated close to each other because of the method they used to measure strength

Running, jumping, things like that, not using something like punching or kicking, which would've been better for a strength measurement, since we're using this for a multiplier on how hard a person punches.

Now you said

And for the short burst we can assume it's the lowest measured speed and distance used, 2.5 meters.

On page 17 of your document (check bottom corners for page numbers), it says this for the short bursts, or the 2.5 meter run

So for short bursts (combat speed), it's not correlated.

I urge you to reread the document if you concluded strength and speed over short bursts aren’t correlated. You quoted reactive strengths having low correlations, wherein full strength does correlate well. Furthermore, in the section you quoted, it mentions there isn’t significant importance when determining starting ability. Which isn’t relevant to the topic at hand, you’re misrepresenting the data, the full strength still has a nigh |1| Pearson correlation indicating a linear correlation. I might have originally had more to say here, but vsbw deleted the message because on mobile sucks, and I don't remember. If the discussion jolts my memory I'll comment on it lol.

It's usually correlated for things like movement speed for long distances.

And since the manga breaks this logic, since Rock Lee who's 46.6 kg can already move faster than the eye can see with pure speed alone, already breaking the chart, it's not wise to even use science for things of this nature.

But I'll entertain it.

Now when it comes to the correlation of muscle strength and velocity, we can tell in every graph on the internet involving muscle strength and speed that they aren't linear.

In fact, I haven't seen a single non-curved graph or any chart signifying that 2x muscle energy or muscle strength = 2x speed.

You know the force velocity graphs you sent, at least the ones that had descriptions for me to read, are talking about the speed at which you lift weights right. It’s talking about how you can lift low weight faster than heavy weight. The force velocity curves are about the force you exert lifting weights vs the speed you lift weights, not muscular strength and energy with movement speed (running and whatnot).

This is probably why everybody in here keeps ducking the Usain Bolt Example.
Usain Bolt isn't even twice as fast as the average human, yet the average human training their muscles to lift twice as much doesn't make them faster than Usain Bolt.

The Usain example doesn’t work because when comparing peoples speed between others and not themselves, body structure needs to be factored in, length of your stride, your stamina, etc. aka it’s a

The Lotus is a piledriver. That isn't amping the strength at all. The strength is strictly from the gate, so no.

What damage said

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Gotta love when vsbw on mobile deletes half of your message

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Edited the post it shouldnt have any more chopped sentences

 

[KingTempest]

The Usain example doesn’t work because when comparing peoples speed between others and not themselves, body structure needs to be factored in, length of your stride, your stamina, etc. aka it’s a

VSBW mobile is folding you rn

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

VSBW mobile is folding you rn

Saw that and was 2s away from conceding the argument cuz vsbw mobile folded me that hard

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Why has this thread turned into scientific dissertations

 

[BlackeJan]

️

If only I was smart enough to know what that means