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Also before further arguments are invented out of thin air, I also said in the blog if it is considered legit, it scales to nobody but himself. Take your time. :^)
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Naruto: 7-A Top Tiers - Revision and Discussion
- Thread starter Kepekley23
- Start date
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I think UMR makes more sense.
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> My issue with this is that there's nothing but absolute conjecture making people believe Pain created the clouds and the rain. The only thing we see him do in the manga with a direct relation to what the databook states is Pain stopping the rain from falling. There are only 3 scans in the manga which shows rain clouds / rain forming here, here, and here, while Pain was a motionless prop in the background, only moving his head and body to face Obito. Konan's trailing question at the end is vague and has no structure, so using that as an argument is simply grasping at straws and a strong "post hoc, ergo propter hoc" fallacy.
There's no such conjecture. It's made clear that he creates the rainfall, both in the databook and in the manga. The databook then confirms the clouds are created with his own chakra.
You're bringing up irrelevant hyperboles such as lightspeed Light Fang to discredit clear cut statements.
> Additionally, we all know storms were naturally occurring phenomena since Nagato was a child and Hanzo was still leader of Amegakure.
I've already addressed this. Yes, Amegakure is the Hidden Rain Village, so obviously storms occur often there. That doesn't mean anything when we see an instance of Nagato creating a non-natural rainstorm by himself.
> We never see him create a storm with a jutsu
Except, you know, when he used the Rain Tiger at Will.
> Yes, we can agree its casual. However, Pain can be just as casual with almighty push. In fact, he uses it many times with incoming danger without even moving, to lesser threats. However, it is incredibly fallacious to assume that because almighty push is a powerful jutsu, that's the reason there's a minimum 5 second interval.
Yes, it's the reason. After Nagato used the Super Shinra Tensei to obliterate Konoha, he was unable to use the Rinnegan's abilities for several minutes as opposed to just 5 seconds. We know this was because he needed all the chakra he could get. It's implied that Shinra Tensei's power is the reason behind the cooldown.
> Shinra Tensei being the "pinnacle" of rinnegan jutsu is objectively untrue and irrelevant. Translation of basho tenin and ST.
Yes it is. Only those with all chakra natures can use Shinra Tensei and it's the perfect Rinnegan jutsu.
> Except there are multiple scans of Pain being extremely casual multiple times with ST as well (more below). Untrue FRA.
Rain Tiger at Will scales below Shinra Tensei FRA.
> With regards to the lore of the series, Kaguya is the source of all chakra on Earth, granted she wasn't in posession of all of it at the time of her ETSB. Regardless, how does this disprove that giant quantities of chakra (especially for use in a jutsu) doesn't automatically scale to physical abilities?
For the third time, I never said they did. That's you misinterpreting my argument.
> 'The entirety of Gaara's key is based on him manipulating sand with chakra. Deidara and his clay bomb arsenal, Edo Madara with Tengai Shinsei and Susanoo, Konan and her 600 billion paper bombs (with exhaustion given it was intended to be a final attack), Hashirama + Madara with wood release, Jinton users, ST/CT/BT, etc. These are all people who can easily perform massive in scale, high tier jutsu vastly above their physical abilities.
Striking Strength is irrelevant to the original debate, already said it three times.
You proceed to list a bunch of feats of fodders surviving ST, which not only implies a belief on Nagato treating SM Naruto the same way he would random fodders, but also ignores the fact that my OP states in bold words that only top-tiers would scale.
> The context of that Pain slamming Naruto scan is entirely out of context.
Ignores the fact that most of Naruto's momentum would be nullified by him being stopped by Pain's palm before being slammed down.
> Nagato being punted by SM Naruto
This belief that Nagato can be easily overwhelmed by Naruto is bogus at best.
> 7-A entire Narutoverse confirmed.
Way to take it out of context. Way to ignore the difference between a Kage and a fodder.
> Lets pause the conversation on calcs, much of them are being revised. You're churning out 5 calcs every 2 seconds for the purpose of this thread, and I'm not discussing any of them here, its not the place.
Calcs that only support this even more...
There's no such conjecture. It's made clear that he creates the rainfall, both in the databook and in the manga. The databook then confirms the clouds are created with his own chakra.
You're bringing up irrelevant hyperboles such as lightspeed Light Fang to discredit clear cut statements.
> Additionally, we all know storms were naturally occurring phenomena since Nagato was a child and Hanzo was still leader of Amegakure.
I've already addressed this. Yes, Amegakure is the Hidden Rain Village, so obviously storms occur often there. That doesn't mean anything when we see an instance of Nagato creating a non-natural rainstorm by himself.
> We never see him create a storm with a jutsu
Except, you know, when he used the Rain Tiger at Will.
> Yes, we can agree its casual. However, Pain can be just as casual with almighty push. In fact, he uses it many times with incoming danger without even moving, to lesser threats. However, it is incredibly fallacious to assume that because almighty push is a powerful jutsu, that's the reason there's a minimum 5 second interval.
Yes, it's the reason. After Nagato used the Super Shinra Tensei to obliterate Konoha, he was unable to use the Rinnegan's abilities for several minutes as opposed to just 5 seconds. We know this was because he needed all the chakra he could get. It's implied that Shinra Tensei's power is the reason behind the cooldown.
> Shinra Tensei being the "pinnacle" of rinnegan jutsu is objectively untrue and irrelevant. Translation of basho tenin and ST.
Yes it is. Only those with all chakra natures can use Shinra Tensei and it's the perfect Rinnegan jutsu.
> Except there are multiple scans of Pain being extremely casual multiple times with ST as well (more below). Untrue FRA.
Rain Tiger at Will scales below Shinra Tensei FRA.
> With regards to the lore of the series, Kaguya is the source of all chakra on Earth, granted she wasn't in posession of all of it at the time of her ETSB. Regardless, how does this disprove that giant quantities of chakra (especially for use in a jutsu) doesn't automatically scale to physical abilities?
For the third time, I never said they did. That's you misinterpreting my argument.
> 'The entirety of Gaara's key is based on him manipulating sand with chakra. Deidara and his clay bomb arsenal, Edo Madara with Tengai Shinsei and Susanoo, Konan and her 600 billion paper bombs (with exhaustion given it was intended to be a final attack), Hashirama + Madara with wood release, Jinton users, ST/CT/BT, etc. These are all people who can easily perform massive in scale, high tier jutsu vastly above their physical abilities.
Striking Strength is irrelevant to the original debate, already said it three times.
You proceed to list a bunch of feats of fodders surviving ST, which not only implies a belief on Nagato treating SM Naruto the same way he would random fodders, but also ignores the fact that my OP states in bold words that only top-tiers would scale.
> The context of that Pain slamming Naruto scan is entirely out of context.
Ignores the fact that most of Naruto's momentum would be nullified by him being stopped by Pain's palm before being slammed down.
> Nagato being punted by SM Naruto
This belief that Nagato can be easily overwhelmed by Naruto is bogus at best.
> 7-A entire Narutoverse confirmed.
Way to take it out of context. Way to ignore the difference between a Kage and a fodder.
> Lets pause the conversation on calcs, much of them are being revised. You're churning out 5 calcs every 2 seconds for the purpose of this thread, and I'm not discussing any of them here, its not the place.
Calcs that only support this even more...
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I have been against the 7-A scaling from this sinular Jutsu's instance and I think RIce has put it perfectly. It feels very fallacious to scale "casulaness" to other "casualness" and I'm not one that believes Jutsu scale to one another unless we're told one is stronger than the other or they both at least do damage.
And Jiraiya's Ultra Big Ball Rasengan statement does seem a bit off since it feels hyperbolic. Rice points this out by comparing it to other hyperbolic statements from the databook.
And Jiraiya's Ultra Big Ball Rasengan statement does seem a bit off since it feels hyperbolic. Rice points this out by comparing it to other hyperbolic statements from the databook.
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- Thread starter
- #245
Alright.
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I support Kepkeley's side. I feel that his arguments are more logical, based on calculations and evidence rather than preconceived notions.
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Agreed with Kep here. Also, I am not as deep in Naruto canon as most people here, but why should we assume that just because the Databooks has some hyperbolic statements, that all statements in the databook are hyperbole or flat out wrong? Whether Light Fang is wrong or not shouldn't affect whether Pain controlling clouds and weather with his chakra is also wrong. That's just my impression from the outside looking in tho.
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- Thread starter
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By the way, speaking of calculations.
List of 7-A calculations for Kage-tiers:
List of 7-A calculations for Kage-tiers:
- Nagato's Rain Tiger at Will (540 megatons)
- Sixth Gate Rock Lee destroying a meteor (500 megatons)
- Nagato surviving a Bijuudama (480 megatons)
- Sasuke and Itachi creating Kirin (200->400 megatons)
- Gaara saving the Sand Village from meteors on The Last (375 megatons)
- Deidara and Manda II flipping the Turtle Island (3.7 gigatons total; the portion that scales to Deidara is somewhere in the 7-A range)
- Onoki being able to blow up a sizeable portion of the Turtle Island (Likely 7-A, perhaps higher)
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It does not even have many hyperbolic statements. The only agreed one here is the Light fang being light speed.
And I swear if someone brings up the mistranslation of Temari and Amaterasu....
And I swear if someone brings up the mistranslation of Temari and Amaterasu....
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I agree with Kepekley and Dragonmaster. I may not be commenting much here, but I am reading everything. I'm leaning more towards Kepekley's side right now.
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Saying that the whole Databook should be disregarded because of a statement about Temari, or Haku is a Mean Generalization Fallacy. It is identifying a few bad apples amongst a whole batch, and thus declaring the entire batch worthless even though it is in perfect conditions.
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funnily enough a lot of the speed of lightning statements really are not hyperbole considering the speed of people those characters scale to is above mach 3000+.
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Also saying not to bring out calcs that support this thread makes no sense.
Stop bringing evidence to back up your points...
Stop bringing evidence to back up your points...
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- Thread starter
- #257
Also, 7-A is not the highest they are portrayed at.
The Akatsuki is portrayed several times as being able to deal with fully-transformed Bijuu, who are High 6-C.
7-A is a sensible mid end, if anything.
The Akatsuki is portrayed several times as being able to deal with fully-transformed Bijuu, who are High 6-C.
7-A is a sensible mid end, if anything.
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Yeah tha Akatsuki literally divided their number to 2 v 1 Tailed beasts and as we know(I assume) they are not stupid. They clearly thought they could beat all of them.
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Just for saying, Temari's databook thing isn't even an argument
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Again I agree w/ Kep-sama. We even have other evidence and support of this feat (other calcs) and yes finally people r starting to understand about the databooks
@Kep
I'm sure there r only some who can take on fully transformed Bijuus but that would mean that some of the main characters would also be High 6-C since they defeated the akatsuki
@Kep
I'm sure there r only some who can take on fully transformed Bijuus but that would mean that some of the main characters would also be High 6-C since they defeated the akatsuki
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I agree with Kep. All of the 7A feats are consistent between the ones who did the feat.
Pain-Nagato
Deidara
Manda
Sasuke-Itachi
6-Tails Naruto
All of these ninja and rogue ninja are above Jounin level
Pain-Nagato
Deidara
Manda
Sasuke-Itachi
6-Tails Naruto
All of these ninja and rogue ninja are above Jounin level
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Can we finally get this over and done with....
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I love how we got one Naruto discussion about 7-A tier upgrades and another about 5-B upgrades.
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This one is just on hold lol.
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forgot about this lol
should we have a 2 day break because of the recent revisions and have all that scale to 7A not be in any battles if they are for sure getting revised
should we have a 2 day break because of the recent revisions and have all that scale to 7A not be in any battles if they are for sure getting revised
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Ikr, what's next, having naruto character that are MFTL+ and being 4-A??Dragonmasterxyz said:
- Oblivious to the inevitable upgrade that will destroy all.
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Quick question. Will the other Kage like A and Onoki scaleto this? Because I remember that A was responsible for beheading Kisame together with Bee.
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They would I think.
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Cool. And Kakashi stated that opening the 7th Gate makes you Kage level anyway, so they would have to scale to Lee's 6th Gate feat.
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When did he say that? I only remember him saying that 8th gate is above the Gokage.RinkakuKagune said:
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mintato or kakashi said it in the war arc in the fight wth madara i believe
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I also cant remember Guy talking about 7 gates being kage level
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I only found thisAstralKing7 said:
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did you only look for the 8th gates statement?? That one was referring to 8th gates in a differetn translation. Either kakashi or minato had stated it somewhere but we cant remember. It was totally said tho
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