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Mythology Feats and Cosmology
- Thread starter Malomtek
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I can understand, when I was a kid I used to get migranes all the time, and it was Hell; and if I remember correctly Cluster Headaches are worse than Migranes.
I can wholly understand why you are getting frusturated, you're in pain. People tend to have a short temper when in pain.
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If it hurts, you should try to get rest. From my experience with migranes I can say that stimuli only make it worse.
But in the end its your choice. Hope you get better soon.
I can wholly understand why you are getting frusturated, you're in pain. People tend to have a short temper when in pain.
---
If it hurts, you should try to get rest. From my experience with migranes I can say that stimuli only make it worse.
But in the end its your choice. Hope you get better soon.
Agnaa
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You used it to justify why Mythological texts and religious texts aren't the same as fictional and was why they cannot be used
Nope, just why they aren't the same.
And yes, you was trying to use the culture example to stop the Jade Emperor profile, only indirectly.
Exactly, indirectly, there's much more nuance to it than just "culture lol". And the Mythology page does the briefest overview over what sorts of cultural impact would make us not feature a work.
With you now changing the definition from culture, there is now no difference between them all and therefore, they're all free game.
Culture's sort of a part of it, but my position's much more nuanced than just "10 million cultural impact points = banned!!!!" and the Mythology page explains part of that nuance. But when you try to make arguments like...
Your culture argument drags in Wukong due to Wukong having a cultural effect, a massive one, on China and the rest of the world.
All I can say is that has nothing to do with my argument. We don't disallow religion because it had a big cultural effect, we disallow it because the followers would get very upset at us if we included their religions on a fictional verses debating site, which is a type of cultural impact, the magnitude isn't the only important part.
Nope, just why they aren't the same.
And yes, you was trying to use the culture example to stop the Jade Emperor profile, only indirectly.
Exactly, indirectly, there's much more nuance to it than just "culture lol". And the Mythology page does the briefest overview over what sorts of cultural impact would make us not feature a work.
With you now changing the definition from culture, there is now no difference between them all and therefore, they're all free game.
Culture's sort of a part of it, but my position's much more nuanced than just "10 million cultural impact points = banned!!!!" and the Mythology page explains part of that nuance. But when you try to make arguments like...
Your culture argument drags in Wukong due to Wukong having a cultural effect, a massive one, on China and the rest of the world.
All I can say is that has nothing to do with my argument. We don't disallow religion because it had a big cultural effect, we disallow it because the followers would get very upset at us if we included their religions on a fictional verses debating site, which is a type of cultural impact, the magnitude isn't the only important part.
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I thought it doesn't matter about offending people and it is more about not wanting to start controversy and over-heated fights between people
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It's a bit of both. More so the latter. We don't want to purposefully start controversy, especially when we already get that with fictional series. If people can't behave when discussing Pokemon what makes you think they can debate a religion?
I agree with Blue daba on that one.
I agree with Blue daba on that one.
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Being non-dual in the revised tiering system doesn't warrant much of anything without more context.Immortalgodd said:
As far as Pangu goes, it seems as if "Yin and Yang" is being used as a catch-all phrase to describe the entire chaotic universe, not as the literal philosophical concept, considering Pangu is definitely treated as a physical deity completely bound to linear time and space and to higher physical forces in the myths, which, if he were truly non-dual, wouldn't make much sense.
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Sera EX said:
Udlmaster
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He actually ruled Heaven as well, merely a primordial one:
The Book of Pillow Secrets ( µ×òõ©¡µø© Zhenzhongshu ) in which he discussed the 'most sublime root' and pointed out that before the formation of the world, the original chaos was like an egg, inside which was Perfect Man Pangu who called himself the King of Primeval Heaven ( ÕăպïÕñ®þÄï Yuanshi Tianwang ). As the universal egg grew larger in its initial stages, he grew larger inside it. At the formation of the world, the light elements rose upwards to form Heaven and the heavy elements descended to form Earth, while the King of Primordial Heaven resided on Jade Capital Mountain ( þÄëõ║¼Õ▒▒ Yujingshan ) in the centre of Heaven. Later on, other spirits, men and animals were formed. Ge Hong's theory was later developed into a systematic Cosmogony.
The Book of Pillow Secrets ( µ×òõ©¡µø© Zhenzhongshu ) in which he discussed the 'most sublime root' and pointed out that before the formation of the world, the original chaos was like an egg, inside which was Perfect Man Pangu who called himself the King of Primeval Heaven ( ÕăպïÕñ®þÄï Yuanshi Tianwang ). As the universal egg grew larger in its initial stages, he grew larger inside it. At the formation of the world, the light elements rose upwards to form Heaven and the heavy elements descended to form Earth, while the King of Primordial Heaven resided on Jade Capital Mountain ( þÄëõ║¼Õ▒▒ Yujingshan ) in the centre of Heaven. Later on, other spirits, men and animals were formed. Ge Hong's theory was later developed into a systematic Cosmogony.
Udlmaster
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>Nope, just why they aren't the same.
Which was why I addressed it.
>Exactly, indirectly, there's much more nuance to it than just "culture lol".
"Like in all these ways going to elude to but not actually say."
>Culture's sort of a part of it, but my position's much more nuanced than just "10 million cultural impact points = banned!!!!" and the Mythology page explains part of that nuance.
See above, too vaguely talking and no actual substance given besides posturing.
>We don't disallow religion because it had a big cultural effect
The culture argument was yours, no one else's.
>we disallow it because the followers would get very upset at us
I believe there IS a massive number of people who are upset with VSB for not having Goku slap everyone in Fiction.
Or the Deathbattle fans who were disagreed with.
These are higher numbers than the number of people of these religions who are going to care on this indexing site.
Which was why I addressed it.
>Exactly, indirectly, there's much more nuance to it than just "culture lol".
"Like in all these ways going to elude to but not actually say."
>Culture's sort of a part of it, but my position's much more nuanced than just "10 million cultural impact points = banned!!!!" and the Mythology page explains part of that nuance.
See above, too vaguely talking and no actual substance given besides posturing.
>We don't disallow religion because it had a big cultural effect
The culture argument was yours, no one else's.
>we disallow it because the followers would get very upset at us
I believe there IS a massive number of people who are upset with VSB for not having Goku slap everyone in Fiction.
Or the Deathbattle fans who were disagreed with.
These are higher numbers than the number of people of these religions who are going to care on this indexing site.
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>The culture argument was yours, no one else's.
I'm intuiting using my reasoning skills, based on reasons I've seen given in past threads for why profiles for active religions are banned, and based on what I've read on the Mythology page.
And hell, other people seem to agree with me. Ant, who I assume oversaw these regulations getting written, says that I'm correct about why it's not allowed.
>People are upset at us for other things
And we're not interested in ceding to those people, while we are interested in ceding to people based on religious grounds.
Again, if you want to change the rules to allow religious profiles on the site, you can go ahead and make a thread about it. I would not object to the rules being changed that way, but they are that way now, and for reasons above the Jade Emperor still falls under them.
I'm intuiting using my reasoning skills, based on reasons I've seen given in past threads for why profiles for active religions are banned, and based on what I've read on the Mythology page.
And hell, other people seem to agree with me. Ant, who I assume oversaw these regulations getting written, says that I'm correct about why it's not allowed.
>People are upset at us for other things
And we're not interested in ceding to those people, while we are interested in ceding to people based on religious grounds.
Again, if you want to change the rules to allow religious profiles on the site, you can go ahead and make a thread about it. I would not object to the rules being changed that way, but they are that way now, and for reasons above the Jade Emperor still falls under them.
Udlmaster
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>I'm intuiting using my reasoning skills, based on reasons I've seen given in past threads for why profiles for active religions are banned, and based on what I've read on the Mythology page.
This doesn't result in anything, it's just more posturing without direction or review on the original critique of your posturing being too vague.
>And we're not interested in ceding to those people, while we are interested in ceding to people based on religious grounds.
And the difference between the two is...?
>Again, if you want to change the rules to allow religious profiles on the site
Not what I'm trying to do, what I'm trying to do is getting this attitude of anything connected to religion but not using the actual religious text to scale (like Wukong who is apart of a Daoist & Buddhist parable.) Like "Religion get out REEEEEEE". (And before you go back to "muh fictional story" do I need to point out the very fact that Wukong becomes a literal Buddha?)
Things related to a religion but not actually using the Religion to scale should always be fine.
I want to make the wiki less up tight not total anarchism.
This doesn't result in anything, it's just more posturing without direction or review on the original critique of your posturing being too vague.
>And we're not interested in ceding to those people, while we are interested in ceding to people based on religious grounds.
And the difference between the two is...?
>Again, if you want to change the rules to allow religious profiles on the site
Not what I'm trying to do, what I'm trying to do is getting this attitude of anything connected to religion but not using the actual religious text to scale (like Wukong who is apart of a Daoist & Buddhist parable.) Like "Religion get out REEEEEEE". (And before you go back to "muh fictional story" do I need to point out the very fact that Wukong becomes a literal Buddha?)
Things related to a religion but not actually using the Religion to scale should always be fine.
I want to make the wiki less up tight not total anarchism.
Agnaa
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This doesn't result in anything, it's just more posturing without direction or review on the original critique of your posturing being too vague.
Oh? I assumed you would have dropped that critique since later in that post you were replying to I gave more concrete posturing.
If you want me to state my point more clearly please just say so instead of doing it in a roundabout fashion like this.
And the difference between the two is...?
Probably that we think ones' demands are more reasonable than the others'.
Not what I'm trying to do, what I'm trying to do is getting this attitude of anything connected to religion but not using the actual religious text to scale
But your responses have mostly been about why my reasons for disallowing profiles for practiced religions are inconsistent should lead to other profiles being banned too. This suggests either a rewrite of the rules, unbanning religious profiles, or banning the types of profiles you brought up like Star Wars and Goku.
Please, instead, provide reasons for why Jade Emperor shouldn't be banned, or for why banning Jade Emperor should lead to other profiles being banned while only banning other religious profiles wouldn't. I know that you've done this before but the discussion got quickly derailed away from this, and I'd rather stay on these types of discussions.
(And before you go back to "muh fictional story" do I need to point out the very fact that Wukong becomes a literal Buddha?)
Do I need to point out the very fact that other fictional characters become literal Buddhas while still being fictional characters?? If you already realize that, I don't see what relevance you bringing this up has.
Things related to a religion but not actually using the Religion to scale should always be fine.
And I disagree for reasons I've outlined above.
Oh? I assumed you would have dropped that critique since later in that post you were replying to I gave more concrete posturing.
If you want me to state my point more clearly please just say so instead of doing it in a roundabout fashion like this.
And the difference between the two is...?
Probably that we think ones' demands are more reasonable than the others'.
Not what I'm trying to do, what I'm trying to do is getting this attitude of anything connected to religion but not using the actual religious text to scale
But your responses have mostly been about why my reasons for disallowing profiles for practiced religions are inconsistent should lead to other profiles being banned too. This suggests either a rewrite of the rules, unbanning religious profiles, or banning the types of profiles you brought up like Star Wars and Goku.
Please, instead, provide reasons for why Jade Emperor shouldn't be banned, or for why banning Jade Emperor should lead to other profiles being banned while only banning other religious profiles wouldn't. I know that you've done this before but the discussion got quickly derailed away from this, and I'd rather stay on these types of discussions.
(And before you go back to "muh fictional story" do I need to point out the very fact that Wukong becomes a literal Buddha?)
Do I need to point out the very fact that other fictional characters become literal Buddhas while still being fictional characters?? If you already realize that, I don't see what relevance you bringing this up has.
Things related to a religion but not actually using the Religion to scale should always be fine.
And I disagree for reasons I've outlined above.
Udlmaster
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>If you want me to state my point more clearly please just say so instead of doing it in a roundabout fashion like this.
I mean, I hoped one would get the point when I directly stated: "See above, too vaguely talking and no actual substance given besides posturing."
Which is a very clear indicator that your point holds no substance and is just posturing.
>Probably that we think ones' demands are more reasonable than the others'.
"This character in text shouldn't be scaled because I don't like where it's scaled to and doesn't represent them accurately."
This would be the argument for both sides, they're both as "reasonable" as each other.
Both hold next to no ground besides "muh offence"
>But your responses have mostly been about why my reasons for disallowing profiles for practiced religions are inconsistent should lead to other profiles being banned too.
It's actually been what your categorise as disallowed, as I want to pull as many profiles from this "muh religion, get out REEEEEE" as possible.
>Please, instead, provide reasons for why Jade Emperor shouldn't be banned, or for why banning Jade Emperor should lead to other profiles being banned while only banning other religious profiles wouldn't.
This is a round-a-bout way of asking for a negative, there is no reason for it to be banned because the profile features no religious content, so it's not a religious profile, so it doesn't fall under the category of "Religious".
Why should he be banned? As the profile I created does not fall under the definition of a Religious profile.
>I know that you've done this before but the discussion got quickly derailed away from this, and I'd rather stay on these types of discussions.
This is reasonable.
>Do I need to point out the very fact that other fictional characters become literal Buddhas while still being fictional characters?
Context is key here, because this is a Buddhist parable, not just a fictional story. Every aspect is designed with the Buddhist religion in mind and is to be tied directly to it.
The Buddha part matters because Wukong becoming a Buddha is supposed to be taken as a literal thing, that he is joining THE Buddha himself and is used to promote Buddhism to readers.
All aspects of the books is tied to Daoist religion, Chinese Religion and Buddhist religion and is used as such, to rip it away from those means it loses much of its context and the pre-established characters do not make sense.
A good analogy is like saying only the 7th book in the Harry Potter series is cannon and saying we can't use the other 6 books.
I mean, I hoped one would get the point when I directly stated: "See above, too vaguely talking and no actual substance given besides posturing."
Which is a very clear indicator that your point holds no substance and is just posturing.
>Probably that we think ones' demands are more reasonable than the others'.
"This character in text shouldn't be scaled because I don't like where it's scaled to and doesn't represent them accurately."
This would be the argument for both sides, they're both as "reasonable" as each other.
Both hold next to no ground besides "muh offence"
>But your responses have mostly been about why my reasons for disallowing profiles for practiced religions are inconsistent should lead to other profiles being banned too.
It's actually been what your categorise as disallowed, as I want to pull as many profiles from this "muh religion, get out REEEEEE" as possible.
>Please, instead, provide reasons for why Jade Emperor shouldn't be banned, or for why banning Jade Emperor should lead to other profiles being banned while only banning other religious profiles wouldn't.
This is a round-a-bout way of asking for a negative, there is no reason for it to be banned because the profile features no religious content, so it's not a religious profile, so it doesn't fall under the category of "Religious".
Why should he be banned? As the profile I created does not fall under the definition of a Religious profile.
>I know that you've done this before but the discussion got quickly derailed away from this, and I'd rather stay on these types of discussions.
This is reasonable.
>Do I need to point out the very fact that other fictional characters become literal Buddhas while still being fictional characters?
Context is key here, because this is a Buddhist parable, not just a fictional story. Every aspect is designed with the Buddhist religion in mind and is to be tied directly to it.
The Buddha part matters because Wukong becoming a Buddha is supposed to be taken as a literal thing, that he is joining THE Buddha himself and is used to promote Buddhism to readers.
All aspects of the books is tied to Daoist religion, Chinese Religion and Buddhist religion and is used as such, to rip it away from those means it loses much of its context and the pre-established characters do not make sense.
A good analogy is like saying only the 7th book in the Harry Potter series is cannon and saying we can't use the other 6 books.
Agnaa
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>This would be the argument for both sides, they're both as "reasonable" as each other. Both hold next to no ground besides "muh offence"
I think it's more reasonable to take offense at people taking a religion you sincerely believe in as fictional, than it is to take offense at a website not saying "Yep, Goku is the strongest character in all of fiction."
>Why should he be banned? As the profile I created does not fall under the definition of a Religious profile.
I summarized why he should be banned here.
>Context is key here, because this is a Buddhist parable, not just a fictional story. Every aspect is designed with the Buddhist religion in mind and is to be tied directly to it.
Yes, but it's still a fictional story that readers recognized as fictional, even if it included elements that they took as real. I think it'd be a bad idea to make a profile for Buddha from Journey to the West, or something like that.
>The Buddha part matters because Wukong becoming a Buddha is supposed to be taken as a literal thing, that he is joining THE Buddha himself and is used to promote Buddhism to readers.
From what Kep's said this is inaccurate, and the people at the time didn't think that Wukong was a real person that existed and who joined the Buddha himself.
I think it's more reasonable to take offense at people taking a religion you sincerely believe in as fictional, than it is to take offense at a website not saying "Yep, Goku is the strongest character in all of fiction."
>Why should he be banned? As the profile I created does not fall under the definition of a Religious profile.
I summarized why he should be banned here.
>Context is key here, because this is a Buddhist parable, not just a fictional story. Every aspect is designed with the Buddhist religion in mind and is to be tied directly to it.
Yes, but it's still a fictional story that readers recognized as fictional, even if it included elements that they took as real. I think it'd be a bad idea to make a profile for Buddha from Journey to the West, or something like that.
>The Buddha part matters because Wukong becoming a Buddha is supposed to be taken as a literal thing, that he is joining THE Buddha himself and is used to promote Buddhism to readers.
From what Kep's said this is inaccurate, and the people at the time didn't think that Wukong was a real person that existed and who joined the Buddha himself.
Udlmaster
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>I think it's more reasonable to take offense at people taking a religion
Devout religious people are firstly not going to take any notice on a site that has giant Golden head v Giant spagget, and I don't think they're going to place any value in our opinions.
Offence would require there to be a value to our opinions which they wouldn't place.
>than it is to take offense at a website not saying "Yep, Goku is the strongest character in all of fiction."
Youtube comment sections, Facebook vs groups and copy-VSBs would disagree IMMENSELY.
>I think it shouldn't since it still presents the exact same issues.
"All these issues I'm going to elude to but not actually specify."
>Yes, but it's still a fictional story that readers recognized as fictional, even if it included elements that they took as real. I think it'd be a bad idea to make a profile for Buddha from Journey to the West, or something like that.
So you agree that there is a religious connotation to the story and that you are making an arbitrary distinction for Wukong, considering Wukong becomes a Buddha, why would him becoming a Buddha and that being featured on his profile be okay but not The Buddha having his own profile when they come from the same story? Because they both carry the Religious connotation of being a Buddha.
>From what Kep's said this is inaccurate, and the people at the time didn't think that Wukong was a real person that existed and who joined the Buddha himself.
For the second half, Wukong literally goes to the Buddha himself and trains with him to become D├▓u-zh├ánsh├¿ng-fó (Buddha of Victorious Fighting).
As for the first part, wrong, the whole premise of Wukong comes from the Chu Dynasty which used to revere Monkeys (Specifically white ones) and would consistently write cultural and religious stories based on them in the Han Dynasty where he was incorporated into Buddhist and Daoist legend.
Devout religious people are firstly not going to take any notice on a site that has giant Golden head v Giant spagget, and I don't think they're going to place any value in our opinions.
Offence would require there to be a value to our opinions which they wouldn't place.
>than it is to take offense at a website not saying "Yep, Goku is the strongest character in all of fiction."
Youtube comment sections, Facebook vs groups and copy-VSBs would disagree IMMENSELY.
>I think it shouldn't since it still presents the exact same issues.
"All these issues I'm going to elude to but not actually specify."
>Yes, but it's still a fictional story that readers recognized as fictional, even if it included elements that they took as real. I think it'd be a bad idea to make a profile for Buddha from Journey to the West, or something like that.
So you agree that there is a religious connotation to the story and that you are making an arbitrary distinction for Wukong, considering Wukong becomes a Buddha, why would him becoming a Buddha and that being featured on his profile be okay but not The Buddha having his own profile when they come from the same story? Because they both carry the Religious connotation of being a Buddha.
>From what Kep's said this is inaccurate, and the people at the time didn't think that Wukong was a real person that existed and who joined the Buddha himself.
For the second half, Wukong literally goes to the Buddha himself and trains with him to become D├▓u-zh├ánsh├¿ng-fó (Buddha of Victorious Fighting).
As for the first part, wrong, the whole premise of Wukong comes from the Chu Dynasty which used to revere Monkeys (Specifically white ones) and would consistently write cultural and religious stories based on them in the Han Dynasty where he was incorporated into Buddhist and Daoist legend.
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Devout religious people are firstly not going to take any notice on a site that has giant Golden head v Giant spagget, and I don't think they're going to place any value in our opinions.
Offence would require there to be a value to our opinions which they wouldn't place.
I've seen active religious users upset at the prospect of allowing profiles for practiced religions on the site.
Youtube comment sections, Facebook vs groups and copy-VSBs would disagree IMMENSELY.
And they're free to do so.
"All these issues I'm going to elude to but not actually specify."
The issues were expanded upon here, and further elaborated on by im blue and Sera.
So you agree that there is a religious connotation to the story and that you are making an arbitrary distinction for Wukong, considering Wukong becomes a Buddha, why would him becoming a Buddha and that being featured on his profile be okay but not The Buddha having his own profile when they come from the same story? Because they both carry the Religious connotation of being a Buddha.
Actually you're right, I shouldn't have said that. I'd be fine with the Buddha from Journey to the West being given a profile now that I've given it more thought.
As for the first part, wrong, the whole premise of Wukong comes from the Chu Dynasty which used to revere Monkeys (Specifically white ones) and would consistently write cultural and religious stories based on them in the Han Dynasty where he was incorporated into Buddhist and Daoist legend.
Well, Kep says otherwise here. I'm not familiar enough with Chinese history to comment, so if you think that the people at the time treated Wukong as a real being that literally existed in the real world, please resolve that with Kep directly.
Offence would require there to be a value to our opinions which they wouldn't place.
I've seen active religious users upset at the prospect of allowing profiles for practiced religions on the site.
Youtube comment sections, Facebook vs groups and copy-VSBs would disagree IMMENSELY.
And they're free to do so.
"All these issues I'm going to elude to but not actually specify."
The issues were expanded upon here, and further elaborated on by im blue and Sera.
So you agree that there is a religious connotation to the story and that you are making an arbitrary distinction for Wukong, considering Wukong becomes a Buddha, why would him becoming a Buddha and that being featured on his profile be okay but not The Buddha having his own profile when they come from the same story? Because they both carry the Religious connotation of being a Buddha.
Actually you're right, I shouldn't have said that. I'd be fine with the Buddha from Journey to the West being given a profile now that I've given it more thought.
As for the first part, wrong, the whole premise of Wukong comes from the Chu Dynasty which used to revere Monkeys (Specifically white ones) and would consistently write cultural and religious stories based on them in the Han Dynasty where he was incorporated into Buddhist and Daoist legend.
Well, Kep says otherwise here. I'm not familiar enough with Chinese history to comment, so if you think that the people at the time treated Wukong as a real being that literally existed in the real world, please resolve that with Kep directly.
Udlmaster
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>I've seen active religious users upset at the prospect of allowing profiles for practiced religions on the site.
"All these people I'm going to elude to but not actually give any examples because the number of this would discredit my argument."
>And they're free to do so.
So we should be free to do the same.
>The issues were expanded upon here, and further elaborated on by im blue and Sera.
Which were addressed already in the case of Sera, your one literally doesn't give any examples of any issues and is just you saying your argument has "Nuiance" but not going indepth with the argument meaning it's as shallow as a kiddy's pool.
As for the controversy, this Cite starts controversy by breathing, and I honestly HEAVILY doubt an army of religious people are going to take issue with people who spend their time debating if big tencticle mosnter can beat Anime girl.
>I'd be fine with the Buddha from Journey to the West being given a profile now that I've given it more thought.
So you're fine with the Jade Emperor then?
>Well, Kep says otherwise here.
Which appears to be his personal interpretation.
"All these people I'm going to elude to but not actually give any examples because the number of this would discredit my argument."
>And they're free to do so.
So we should be free to do the same.
>The issues were expanded upon here, and further elaborated on by im blue and Sera.
Which were addressed already in the case of Sera, your one literally doesn't give any examples of any issues and is just you saying your argument has "Nuiance" but not going indepth with the argument meaning it's as shallow as a kiddy's pool.
As for the controversy, this Cite starts controversy by breathing, and I honestly HEAVILY doubt an army of religious people are going to take issue with people who spend their time debating if big tencticle mosnter can beat Anime girl.
>I'd be fine with the Buddha from Journey to the West being given a profile now that I've given it more thought.
So you're fine with the Jade Emperor then?
>Well, Kep says otherwise here.
Which appears to be his personal interpretation.
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"All these people I'm going to elude to but not actually give any examples because the number of this would discredit my argument."
I'm not going to give examples because it was probably over a year ago (as such I don't remember the names or thread involved), but I think it was only one, maybe two people. My point with it being, you seemingly saying that no religious people would care, so I pointed out that I've seen at least one religious person care, contradicting your statement.
So we should be free to do the same.
Sure? If the site agrees that religious profiles are okay I won't oppose.
Which were addressed already in the case of Sera
Where was it addressed? I probably just missed it, but after checking back I can't see a response addressing the post of Sera's I linked.
your one literally doesn't give any examples of any issues and is just you saying your argument has "Nuiance" but not going indepth
Yes it does give examples. No it isn't just me saying my argument has nuance. Here's a quote from my post where I give examples of the issues!
As for the controversy, this Cite starts controversy by breathing, and I honestly HEAVILY doubt an army of religious people are going to take issue with people who spend their time debating if big tencticle mosnter can beat Anime girl.
These sorts of arguments are what I meant by this. This argument applies to all religious profiles, not just Jade Emperor, and if you want them all unbanned then make a thread about that. If you only want Jade Emperor unbanned then provide an argument that would only get Jade Emperor unbanned.
I have a response to the point you brought up here but it's a sentiment I've already shared and I don't want to keep fueling what I view as an unproductive branch of this argument. If you want to keep going with this point, though, I can provide a response.
So you're fine with the Jade Emperor then?
No, the texts you're drawing from don't seem to have been seen as fictional at the time like Sun Wukong was.
Which appears to be his personal interpretation.
And like I said in the sentence right after, you should discuss the merits of that interpretation with him, as he seems knowledgeable on the subject.
I'm not going to give examples because it was probably over a year ago (as such I don't remember the names or thread involved), but I think it was only one, maybe two people. My point with it being, you seemingly saying that no religious people would care, so I pointed out that I've seen at least one religious person care, contradicting your statement.
So we should be free to do the same.
Sure? If the site agrees that religious profiles are okay I won't oppose.
Which were addressed already in the case of Sera
Where was it addressed? I probably just missed it, but after checking back I can't see a response addressing the post of Sera's I linked.
your one literally doesn't give any examples of any issues and is just you saying your argument has "Nuiance" but not going indepth
Yes it does give examples. No it isn't just me saying my argument has nuance. Here's a quote from my post where I give examples of the issues!
| We don't disallow religion because it had a big cultural effect, we disallow it because the followers would get very upset at us if we included their religions on a fictional verses debating site, which is a type of cultural impact, the magnitude isn't the only important part. |
These sorts of arguments are what I meant by this. This argument applies to all religious profiles, not just Jade Emperor, and if you want them all unbanned then make a thread about that. If you only want Jade Emperor unbanned then provide an argument that would only get Jade Emperor unbanned.
I have a response to the point you brought up here but it's a sentiment I've already shared and I don't want to keep fueling what I view as an unproductive branch of this argument. If you want to keep going with this point, though, I can provide a response.
So you're fine with the Jade Emperor then?
No, the texts you're drawing from don't seem to have been seen as fictional at the time like Sun Wukong was.
Which appears to be his personal interpretation.
And like I said in the sentence right after, you should discuss the merits of that interpretation with him, as he seems knowledgeable on the subject.
Udlmaster
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> but I think it was only one, maybe two people. My point with it being, you seemingly saying that no religious people would care
Not what I said, I said "Devout religious people" and expanded upon it by saying: "I honestly HEAVILY doubt an army of religious people are going to take issue with people who spend their time debating if big tencticle mosnter can beat Anime girl."
You are literally conceding to the desires of a singular to two people vs the thousands on the wiki. That is utterly absurd.
>Where was it addressed? I probably just missed it, but after checking back I can't see a response addressing the post of Sera's I linked
And we've addressed the concept of "controversy" and "offence" constantly, this point no longer holds merit, most of all because "controvsery" is only applying to a SINGLE to TWO people on the ENTIRE wiki, "Wants of the few for the wants of the many."
>Yes it does give examples.
In your quotation you're talking about the "offence" argument again, which has been debunked constantly and debunked further by your 1-2 figure.
>If you only want Jade Emperor unbanned then provide an argument that would only get Jade Emperor unbanned.
I've constantly made the same argument here to which people cannot address besides: "Well, Jade has minor connections to Daoism there for 'Religion get out REEEEEE'"
>No, the texts you're drawing from don't seem to have been seen as fictional at the time like Sun Wukong was.
They're from Daoist creation myths which The Jade Emperor is directly tied to, because The Jade Emperor is a Daoist mythological being, like how Wukong is a Buddhist/Daoist Mythological being.
>And like I said in the sentence right after, you should discuss the merits of that interpretation with him, as he seems knowledgeable on the subject.
Not to discredit Kep, but citation for this? Has Kep shown he is an authority on Chinese history and mythology?
Because that's what you're treating him as.
Not what I said, I said "Devout religious people" and expanded upon it by saying: "I honestly HEAVILY doubt an army of religious people are going to take issue with people who spend their time debating if big tencticle mosnter can beat Anime girl."
You are literally conceding to the desires of a singular to two people vs the thousands on the wiki. That is utterly absurd.
>Where was it addressed? I probably just missed it, but after checking back I can't see a response addressing the post of Sera's I linked
And we've addressed the concept of "controversy" and "offence" constantly, this point no longer holds merit, most of all because "controvsery" is only applying to a SINGLE to TWO people on the ENTIRE wiki, "Wants of the few for the wants of the many."
>Yes it does give examples.
In your quotation you're talking about the "offence" argument again, which has been debunked constantly and debunked further by your 1-2 figure.
>If you only want Jade Emperor unbanned then provide an argument that would only get Jade Emperor unbanned.
I've constantly made the same argument here to which people cannot address besides: "Well, Jade has minor connections to Daoism there for 'Religion get out REEEEEE'"
>No, the texts you're drawing from don't seem to have been seen as fictional at the time like Sun Wukong was.
They're from Daoist creation myths which The Jade Emperor is directly tied to, because The Jade Emperor is a Daoist mythological being, like how Wukong is a Buddhist/Daoist Mythological being.
>And like I said in the sentence right after, you should discuss the merits of that interpretation with him, as he seems knowledgeable on the subject.
Not to discredit Kep, but citation for this? Has Kep shown he is an authority on Chinese history and mythology?
Because that's what you're treating him as.
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Not what I said, I said "Devout religious people" and expanded upon it by saying: "I honestly HEAVILY doubt an army of religious people are going to take issue with people who spend their time debating if big tencticle mosnter can beat Anime girl."
You are literally conceding to the desires of a singular to two people vs the thousands on the wiki. That is utterly absurd.
Like I said, if thousands on the wiki want there to be profiles for religious characters I'd be fine with it, but I don't think that's how threads on the subject have turned out in the past.
And we've addressed the concept of "controversy" and "offence" constantly, this point no longer holds merit, most of all because "controvsery" is only applying to a SINGLE to TWO people on the ENTIRE wiki, "Wants of the few for the wants of the many."
I don't think it's fair to frame
In your quotation you're talking about the "offence" argument again, which has been debunked constantly and debunked further by your 1-2 figure.
Again my above response to this framing. And again, my earlier comments about this applying to all religious profiles. If you don't like this reasoning, change the rules. If the rules change, I'll be fine with a Jade Emperor profile.
I've constantly made the same argument here to which people cannot address besides: "Well, Jade has minor connections to Daoism there for 'Religion get out REEEEEE'"
They're from Daoist creation myths which The Jade Emperor is directly tied to, because The Jade Emperor is a Daoist mythological being, like how Wukong is a Buddhist/Daoist Mythological being.
Yes. We disallow active religions. Considering that (from a quick search) there's around 200 million Taoists right now, it should be disallowed.
Not to discredit Kep, but citation for this? Has Kep shown he is an authority on Chinese history and mythology?
Because that's what you're treating him as.
He presents himself as familiar with scholarly consensus of characters in Chinese mythology, so he's at least more of an authority than me.
You are literally conceding to the desires of a singular to two people vs the thousands on the wiki. That is utterly absurd.
Like I said, if thousands on the wiki want there to be profiles for religious characters I'd be fine with it, but I don't think that's how threads on the subject have turned out in the past.
And we've addressed the concept of "controversy" and "offence" constantly, this point no longer holds merit, most of all because "controvsery" is only applying to a SINGLE to TWO people on the ENTIRE wiki, "Wants of the few for the wants of the many."
I don't think it's fair to frame
- "I'm fine with not having these profiles since they offend a few people"
- "I'm not fine with that"
In your quotation you're talking about the "offence" argument again, which has been debunked constantly and debunked further by your 1-2 figure.
Again my above response to this framing. And again, my earlier comments about this applying to all religious profiles. If you don't like this reasoning, change the rules. If the rules change, I'll be fine with a Jade Emperor profile.
I've constantly made the same argument here to which people cannot address besides: "Well, Jade has minor connections to Daoism there for 'Religion get out REEEEEE'"
They're from Daoist creation myths which The Jade Emperor is directly tied to, because The Jade Emperor is a Daoist mythological being, like how Wukong is a Buddhist/Daoist Mythological being.
Yes. We disallow active religions. Considering that (from a quick search) there's around 200 million Taoists right now, it should be disallowed.
Not to discredit Kep, but citation for this? Has Kep shown he is an authority on Chinese history and mythology?
Because that's what you're treating him as.
He presents himself as familiar with scholarly consensus of characters in Chinese mythology, so he's at least more of an authority than me.
Udlmaster
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>Like I said, if thousands on the wiki want there to be profiles for religious characters I'd be fine with it, but I don't think that's how threads on the subject have turned out in the past.
I can without any doubt that there is several times more people who are for than against.
>Yes. We disallow active religions. Considering that (from a quick search) there's around 200 million Taoists right now, it should be disallowed.
Still not apart of Daoist religion.
>He presents himself as familiar with scholarly consensus of characters in Chinese mythology, so he's at least more of an authority than me.
In what way? He merely gave an interpretation, to contrast, I gave you specific time periods which disagree.
I can without any doubt that there is several times more people who are for than against.
>Yes. We disallow active religions. Considering that (from a quick search) there's around 200 million Taoists right now, it should be disallowed.
Still not apart of Daoist religion.
>He presents himself as familiar with scholarly consensus of characters in Chinese mythology, so he's at least more of an authority than me.
In what way? He merely gave an interpretation, to contrast, I gave you specific time periods which disagree.
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Um. There are at maximum 12 million followers Taoist followers. I don't know where you got that ridiculously high 200 million from.
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I can without any doubt that there is several times more people who are for than against.
Okay? If Jade Emperor shouldn't be banned because most people don't want to ban religious profiles, then go ahead with the thread on unbanning religious profiles. I'm not particularly affixed to the current rules, I'm just explaining why they were put into place and how they apply to your proposed Jade Emperor profile.
Still not apart of Daoist religion.
Please elaborate.
In what way? He merely gave an interpretation, to contrast, I gave you specific time periods which disagree.
Since you're seeming to compare your knowledge with Kep's here, I'd like to clarify that I don't think you're NOT an expert. You're obviously very knowledgeable on Chinese mythology. But the thing is, when I see two people disagreeing on something about a verse, and neither of them seem obviously wrong, I like waiting until those two argue it among themselves for a while, rather than automatically assigning the last person to make a counterargument as the correct one.
@ImmortalGodd From good ol' Wikipedia. I went from these statements:
Among these, 173 million (13%) claim an affiliation with Taoist practices. Further in detail, 12 million people claim to be "Taoists", a term traditionally used exclusively for initiates, priests and experts of Taoist rituals and methods.
I should have been more clear, I was counting those claiming an affiliation with Taoist practices, since the latter seems much more exclusionary than just "Those who occasionally believe and implement Taoist rituals".
I combined that 175 million number with the following:
In Taiwan 7.5 million people (33% of the population) identify themselves as Taoists. Data collected in 2010 for religious demographics of Hong Kong and Singapore show that, respectively, 14% and 11% of the people of these cities identify as Taoists
Giving a concrete number of at least 182.5 million, and I assumed that 14% of Hong Kong and 11% of Singapore rounds it close enough to 200 million.
But even assuming 12 million followers, I believe that's enough for us to consider it a significant quantity of modern-day followers, especially since (as far as I can tell from a quick search) Scientology has 10 million followers, and I don't think we'd include that on the wiki.
Okay? If Jade Emperor shouldn't be banned because most people don't want to ban religious profiles, then go ahead with the thread on unbanning religious profiles. I'm not particularly affixed to the current rules, I'm just explaining why they were put into place and how they apply to your proposed Jade Emperor profile.
Still not apart of Daoist religion.
Please elaborate.
In what way? He merely gave an interpretation, to contrast, I gave you specific time periods which disagree.
Since you're seeming to compare your knowledge with Kep's here, I'd like to clarify that I don't think you're NOT an expert. You're obviously very knowledgeable on Chinese mythology. But the thing is, when I see two people disagreeing on something about a verse, and neither of them seem obviously wrong, I like waiting until those two argue it among themselves for a while, rather than automatically assigning the last person to make a counterargument as the correct one.
@ImmortalGodd From good ol' Wikipedia. I went from these statements:
Among these, 173 million (13%) claim an affiliation with Taoist practices. Further in detail, 12 million people claim to be "Taoists", a term traditionally used exclusively for initiates, priests and experts of Taoist rituals and methods.
I should have been more clear, I was counting those claiming an affiliation with Taoist practices, since the latter seems much more exclusionary than just "Those who occasionally believe and implement Taoist rituals".
I combined that 175 million number with the following:
In Taiwan 7.5 million people (33% of the population) identify themselves as Taoists. Data collected in 2010 for religious demographics of Hong Kong and Singapore show that, respectively, 14% and 11% of the people of these cities identify as Taoists
Giving a concrete number of at least 182.5 million, and I assumed that 14% of Hong Kong and 11% of Singapore rounds it close enough to 200 million.
But even assuming 12 million followers, I believe that's enough for us to consider it a significant quantity of modern-day followers, especially since (as far as I can tell from a quick search) Scientology has 10 million followers, and I don't think we'd include that on the wiki.
Udlmaster
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>Okay? If Jade Emperor shouldn't be banned because most people don't want to ban religious profiles, then go ahead with the thread on unbanning religious profiles.
But again, it's not my aim, my aim is to pull as many profiles from the ban, not to lift the ban.
>Please elaborate.
The Jade Emperor doesn't use the Religious text from Daoism.
>Since you're seeming to compare your knowledge with Kep's here, I'd like to clarify that I don't think you're NOT an expert. You're obviously very knowledgeable on Chinese mythology. But the thing is, when I see two people disagreeing on something about a verse, and neither of them seem obviously wrong, I like waiting until those two argue it among themselves for a while, rather than automatically assigning the last person to make a counterargument as the correct one.
If that is your view then I will likely have a chat with Kep then.
>Scientology has 10 million followers, and I don't think we'd include that on the wiki.
Does Scientology actually have anything anyone wants to scale?
But again, it's not my aim, my aim is to pull as many profiles from the ban, not to lift the ban.
>Please elaborate.
The Jade Emperor doesn't use the Religious text from Daoism.
>Since you're seeming to compare your knowledge with Kep's here, I'd like to clarify that I don't think you're NOT an expert. You're obviously very knowledgeable on Chinese mythology. But the thing is, when I see two people disagreeing on something about a verse, and neither of them seem obviously wrong, I like waiting until those two argue it among themselves for a while, rather than automatically assigning the last person to make a counterargument as the correct one.
If that is your view then I will likely have a chat with Kep then.
>Scientology has 10 million followers, and I don't think we'd include that on the wiki.
Does Scientology actually have anything anyone wants to scale?
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Udlmaster said:
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@UDL
DO YOU KNOW WGAT HAVE YOU DONE?!
DO YOU KNOW WGAT HAVE YOU DONE?!
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This discussion is dragging out for too long. As the religious version of the Jade Emperor will not be allowed, no matter what, can it at least strictly be focused to whether or not it is acceptable to create a profile solely based on Journey to the West?
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>The issues were expanded upon here, and further elaborated on by im blue and Sera.
Which were addressed already in the case of Sera, your one literally doesn't give any examples of any issues and is just you saying your argument has "Nuiance" but not going indepth with the argument meaning it's as shallow as a kiddy's pool.
As for the controversy, this Cite starts controversy by breathing, and I honestly HEAVILY doubt an army of religious people are going to take issue with people who spend their time debating if big tencticle mosnter can beat Anime girl.
they will if they see that we are insulting their dieties by
A. Calling them fictional by putting them on a fictional site
B. Putting them not at extremely high tiers like 1-A+ or 0, and more fodder tiers like Low 2-C, which actively insults the belief religious people hold dearly of how their god is omnipotent and all powerful
C. Saying fictional characters like Ness (An 8 year old kid), Hajun (A guy from an obscure visual novel), Or Discord (A MLP character) can beat their god in a VS Match, which basically calls thei god weak even more provactively.
Which were addressed already in the case of Sera, your one literally doesn't give any examples of any issues and is just you saying your argument has "Nuiance" but not going indepth with the argument meaning it's as shallow as a kiddy's pool.
As for the controversy, this Cite starts controversy by breathing, and I honestly HEAVILY doubt an army of religious people are going to take issue with people who spend their time debating if big tencticle mosnter can beat Anime girl.
they will if they see that we are insulting their dieties by
A. Calling them fictional by putting them on a fictional site
B. Putting them not at extremely high tiers like 1-A+ or 0, and more fodder tiers like Low 2-C, which actively insults the belief religious people hold dearly of how their god is omnipotent and all powerful
C. Saying fictional characters like Ness (An 8 year old kid), Hajun (A guy from an obscure visual novel), Or Discord (A MLP character) can beat their god in a VS Match, which basically calls thei god weak even more provactively.
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See...now that brings up the issue with composites but I really do not want to get into that derail.
I think we should just wrap this particular thread up. As there is nothing inherently 1-A about the JE profile though, I suggest it be scaled off actual consistent feats (as everything should be) and not fancy-talk (which myth is infamous for using), or be placed at Unknown (kind of pointless but, accuracy and consistency is more important here). Fancy logic, big words, and uber-think don't make the cut anymore.
I think we should just wrap this particular thread up. As there is nothing inherently 1-A about the JE profile though, I suggest it be scaled off actual consistent feats (as everything should be) and not fancy-talk (which myth is infamous for using), or be placed at Unknown (kind of pointless but, accuracy and consistency is more important here). Fancy logic, big words, and uber-think don't make the cut anymore.
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I'm also responding on principle.
>they will if they see that we are insulting their dieties by
I mean, they're already insulted (for example Christians) are insulted by having YHVH be apart of the SMT verse (my scapegoat), a Hindu spiritual leader was offended by the Kali model they gave to her and yet we feature the SMITE Kali here, so we're already offending religions.
>A. Calling them fictional by putting them on a fictional site
Since i've already given an answer to this I'm just gonna quote myself:
Where my Omnipotent Goku at, you're actively insulting my love for a character I hold dear isn't Omnipotent and all powerful.
>C. Saying fictional characters like Ness (An 8 year old kid), Hajun (A guy from an obscure visual novel), Or Discord (A MLP character) can beat their god in a VS Match, which basically calls thei god weak even more provactively.
"Did you just say Caine from WoD doesn't win against Azathoth? You're calling my favourite character weak even more provactively?"
>they will if they see that we are insulting their dieties by
I mean, they're already insulted (for example Christians) are insulted by having YHVH be apart of the SMT verse (my scapegoat), a Hindu spiritual leader was offended by the Kali model they gave to her and yet we feature the SMITE Kali here, so we're already offending religions.
>A. Calling them fictional by putting them on a fictional site
Since i've already given an answer to this I'm just gonna quote myself:
>B. Putting them not at extremely high tiers like 1-A+ or 0, and more fodder tiers like Low 2-C, which actively insults the belief religious people hold dearly of how their god is omnipotent and all powerfulUdlmaster said:
Where my Omnipotent Goku at, you're actively insulting my love for a character I hold dear isn't Omnipotent and all powerful.
>C. Saying fictional characters like Ness (An 8 year old kid), Hajun (A guy from an obscure visual novel), Or Discord (A MLP character) can beat their god in a VS Match, which basically calls thei god weak even more provactively.
"Did you just say Caine from WoD doesn't win against Azathoth? You're calling my favourite character weak even more provactively?"
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Are you ACTUALLY THINKING that peoples love of Goku, Cain, Naruto, Iron Man, Batman, Mario, etc,etc, even COMES CLOSE to the love and respect devout religious people have for their figures like God/Allah/Yahweh, Jesus, Brahman, Buddha, Muhammad, Vishnu, Moses, etc??
Udlmaster
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Are you questioning my love for WoD?I'm Blue daba dee daba die said:
Tread lightly.
I also like of all the things I said that's what you took from it, something I didn't even talk about, love for something being equal or greater than something.
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Your answer to a serious question is a meme. Really.
Also, in now way is the most devoted DB fan even CLOSE to the devout christian,muslim,jew,hindu,buddhist,etc
No fandom will be willing to die on the battlefield for Omnipotent Goku. Many religious groups would be willing to do that right now if they think their religion is in danger
No fandom goes to the length of having certain sayings you say every time you say the name of a respected character in X fandom. Religious groups have names and blessing prayers for their prophets
No fandom respects their work so much they have limits on how they deal with it. Religious groups have rules where you can PUT their holy book, let alone touching it with a cheeto stained hand
Also, in now way is the most devoted DB fan even CLOSE to the devout christian,muslim,jew,hindu,buddhist,etc
No fandom will be willing to die on the battlefield for Omnipotent Goku. Many religious groups would be willing to do that right now if they think their religion is in danger
No fandom goes to the length of having certain sayings you say every time you say the name of a respected character in X fandom. Religious groups have names and blessing prayers for their prophets
No fandom respects their work so much they have limits on how they deal with it. Religious groups have rules where you can PUT their holy book, let alone touching it with a cheeto stained hand
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