Mythology Feats and Cosmology

[Udlmaster]

I would recommend that you do not push for further conflict. Just back off, and respect our regulations and conventions in the future. I am overworked enough as it is.

Thing was, I wasn't trying for conflict, I was trying to get to the bottom of this idea that if they are related to Religion then they cannot be used.

My entire goal was to separate them, it just got out of hand when people assumed I was talking about religion which got things heated and then imploded further.

The situation is just ******.

 

[Antvasima]

Alright. My hangup was that you seemed to stoically disrespect our rules and conventions on an ideological basis though.

 

[Udlmaster]

Alright. My hangup was that you seemed to stoically disrespect our rules and conventions on an ideological basis though.

I wasn't even trying to break any rules, because from my angle it was me trying to get to the bottom of this idea, people thinking I'm advocating for something I'm not, defending myself and then being told "Shut up or be banned"

 

[Antvasima]

Not exactly. You were told that if you would keep arguing for that we should have anarchy in the wiki, with the staff losing all authority, and nobody respecting their decisions, this would set a terrible precedent, and create lots of unnecessary conflict, which would eventually force us to ban you.

In addition, it is extremely tiresome to deal with regular members who keep arguing for hours after you have told them no over and over, which eventually results in 18 hour working shifts, and not being able to do many other, more important, tasks.

 

[Kepekley23]

@Udl

I noticed you said something about JoTW being a religious text and mentioned me saying otherwise as being "my interpretation", but this is untrue.

1. Sun Wukong is not even from the Chu Dynasty as you seemed to claim. JoTW was written in the 16th century, over 2,000 years after the Chu Kingdom. While he is inspired by a real-life deity worshipped around that time, he is not the same deity nor an alternate religious interpretation of it. He is and always was meant to be a fictional character, both by the author and by the intended audience. He was never revered as a real life being.

2. As for JoTW being a satire of the Chinese government of the time.

 

[Kepekley23]

Also, although I know you're not arguing for religions to be pushed into the wiki and all, I am fairly sure everyone ultimately agrees with you that no sensible religious person would actually end up caring, considering this wiki's context. We simply want to be pragmatic and avoid any chances.

 

[Antvasima]

Also, to be fair Udl, I am fairly sure everyone ultimately agrees with you that no sensible religious person would actually end up caring, considering this wiki's context. We simply want to be pragmatic and avoid any chances.

I think that there are many religious people who would be offended if we featured their deities as characters in this wiki, and a small minority might get dangerously offended.

Regardless, it doesn't cost us anything to try to be uncontroversial and respectful to them.

It is also recurrently very hard to properly tier such profiles.

 

[Udlmaster]

>Sun Wukong is not even from the Chu Dynasty as you seemed to claim.

I didn't quite say he came from the Chu Dynasty, I said his premise was from there, which was when they revered Monkeys:

"As for the first part, wrong, the whole premise of Wukong comes from the Chu Dynasty which used to revere Monkeys (Specifically white ones) and would consistently write cultural and religious stories based on them in the Han Dynasty where he was incorporated into Buddhist and Daoist legend."

>While he is inspired by a real-life deity worshipped around that time

Now this is my issue with the opposing logic, that because they are based on the real thing they cannot be used.

We agree here that just because they're based on real gods that we should still be able to use them.

This is basically my point.

>2. As for JoTW being a satire of the Chinese government of the time.

however, it's based upon multiple myths, stories and screenplays during that time,

 

[Udlmaster]

>We debate power-scaling which is downstream from feats.

Well, mostly statements, I believe all the top tier verses on the site are based nearly entirely on their statements rather than feats of power.

>Hyperbole, fancy words, mega-thonk language, and even extreme interpretations of math and science should have no more weight than feats and scaling.

I agree they shouldn't have MORE hypothetical weight than feats, arguably feats > statements was a thing thrown around for a while, I do believe statements are also extremely valuable.

And it seems currently your issue is with the Transdualism page rather than the Jade Emperor blog, so I'd say it's best to take it up with Ultima and have the page changed.

But for now, do you not agree that the blog as it stands follows the current accepted definition for Type 4?

 

[Kepekley23]

I think that there are many religious people who would be offended if we featured their deities as characters in this wiki, and a small minority might get dangerously offended.

Regardless, it doesn't cost us anything to try to be uncontroversial and respectful to them.

It is also recurrently very hard to properly tier such profiles.

I was talking about Eastern religions, not Western ones. Speaking as someone strongly familiar with Mongolian Buddhism, the concept of religious fanaticism is almost exclusively Western and tied to west-dominated religions. Almost all predominant Eastern religions tend to span a vast amount of philosophical schools and different points of view, some of which are agnostic towards the gods in question. The relatively few Eastern extremist groups tend to be strongly affiliated with a certain something I'm not going to name here, to avoid shitstorms.

I'm not saying we should showcase profiles for Eastern religions in any shape or form, before anyone comes at me. I'm saying most people here are debating through the lens of the West.

 

[Sera_EX]

Sorry, I wouldn't know.

 

[I'm_Blue_daba_dee_daba_die]

@Kepekley23

Isn't that certain something associated more with western religions due to its similarities with western stuff

 

[Sera_EX]

There are also VSB only concepts that fundamentally oppose theology. They aren't compatible. So religion shouldn't be allowed. It's quite simple.

Additionally, it's because those things are too old and extremely difficult to evaluate that I am against them.

The idea that only an extremely small group of people if not one person would be the "knowledgeable experts" on those topics also encourages the gatekeeping effect. It's best to not allow ourselves to forget the point of this wikia as well.

 

[Antvasima]

@Kepekley23

I am well aware of that there is mainly a minority within one religion (that we should not name) that causes most of the religiously motivated violence, but as I think that we both agree, we should still try to be respectful towards all faiths.

 

[Kepekley23]

There are also VSB only concepts that fundamentally oppose theology. They aren't compatible. So religion shouldn't be allowed. It's quite simple.

Additionally, it's because those things are too old and extremely difficult to evaluate that I am against them.

The idea that only an extremely small group of people if not one person would be the "knowledgeable experts" on those topics also encourages the gatekeeping effect. It's best to not allow ourselves to forget the point of this wikia as well.

While I agree that religions shouldn't be allowed, I am assuming (based on the rest of your comment) that you made this as an argument against mythologies as a whole, and I personally don't see how any mythology has "concepts that fundamentally oppose this wiki's concepts." Are you talking about NLFs? If so, that only applies to active religions. Older mythologies wouldn't count.

 

[Sera_EX]

And on a final note, we should remember our wikia especially attracts people with a lack of social awareness and/or mental illnesses. So we really should just be a harmless power-scale wikia about rating modern fictional characters and not a theological, scientific, mathematical, historical, philosophical, or political inquiry site by any means.

Just food for thought, though now we really need to move on and stop derailing.

 

[Antvasima]

@Sera

Agreed.

We are almost out of posts though.

 

[Udlmaster]

I think the scientific, mathematical, historical are all good qualities, these are objective and can only really inform.

The other 3, they're best kept to private chats.

 

[Sera_EX]

They are, and it's fine to converse about them, but I'm saying in the way of trying to "index" such things. I'd love to talk to any of you about the above mentioned things. I like hearing different opinions because it prevents the echo chamber effect.

 

[Udlmaster]

They are, and it's fine to converse about them, but I'm saying in the way of trying to "index" such things. I'd love to talk to any of you about the above mentioned things. I like hearing different opinions because it prevents the echo chamber effect.

I'm in absolute agreement.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Okay, so, since the debate about religion is seemingly over, I figure it's appropriate to address the question of Type 4 Transduality and how it relates to 1-A.

Okay so, ignoring the fact I'm probably killing that type and the ability itself altogether, I should note that Type 4 Transduality is mainly about transcending the distinction between dualism and nondualism, as in, existing beyond the state of being occupied by nondual entities and abstractions, much like they transcend the state occupied by entities bounded by dualism.

Now, when defined in relation to logical models, such an abstract state of being was represented by something that transcends further, even more abstract "dual" systems represented most simply by many-valued logics, which is basically a blanket term for any logical system wherein an input or a predicate has many more Truth Values than just True (1) or False (0), much like Type 3 and 2 were to be represented by standard examples of paraconsistent logics, like Dialetheism for instance.

Now the thing about that is that neither many-valued logic nor paraconsistency indicate 1-A states of being by necessity. The former is literally just an extension of our normal logics that allows something to have characteristics corresponding to additional variables apart from true and false. Say, the statement "there are pink unicorns on the moon" could be placed under True (1), False (0), Unknown (2), Unknowable (3), and so on and so forth. In "realistic" terms, a Type 4 Transdual would exist outside of all of these variables altogether, provided they are part of some framework wherein nondual states are being placed.

Meanwhile, paraconsistent systems of logic are just alternate systems which tolerate inconsistencies and contradictions, unlike the classical, aristotellian logic we default to in everyday reasoning. Quantum Mechanics and Machine Programming both make use of paraconsistent mathematical models, and I am fairly sure sub-atomic particles aren't 1-A because of that.

 

[Agnaa]

Responses to Udl's posts​

But again, it's not my aim, my aim is to pull as many profiles from the ban, not to lift the ban. Then for the love of god, stop constantly repeating arguments that would result in all religious profiles being allowed while saying "I only want one more profile allowed". The Jade Emperor doesn't use the Religious text from Daoism. Ahh okay. Does Scientology actually have anything anyone wants to scale? I would not at all be surprised. This just the SAME ad nausuem argument that "Jade Emperor Mythology = Jade Emperor Religion" which I got into Agnaa which in the end we agreed that AGAIN Religion is off limits but the Jade Emperor's profile is fine as along as it doesn't use Religion. We never agreed to this, and it goes directly against what I've repeated to you multiple times. But that isn't what I'm advocating for again, people keep assuming that because I don't think The Jade Emperor and his myths constitue as Religion (Such as The Jade Emperor's involvement with Pan-Gu, which has agreed to have been merely myth and not apart of any religion or the Journey') I must therefore want all religion to be unbanned. I assume it because you keep saying shit like "Banning religious profiles is as dumb as banning Star Wars profiles". I get that you may not want religious profiles unbanned, but you keep pushing arguments that would result in it, and THAT is my issue. You can not push an argument that would affect 4 dozen pages if accepted and say it's only going to apply to a single page, we try not to have blatant double standards like that. Now this is my issue with the opposing logic, that because they are based on the real thing they cannot be used. Again, an un-nuanced representation. I even said that the Buddha from Journey to the West could have a profile. If you're using mythology that people took as real to create a profile for a religious character that causes the same issues as just creating a profile for the religious character. We're taking a serious interpretation of one of their sincere beliefs, and including it alongside fiction, likely leading to controversy.

 

[Antvasima]

@Ultima & Agnaa

Thank you for helping out.

 

[Udlmaster]

>Then for the love of god, stop constantly repeating arguments that would result in all religious profiles being allowed while saying "I only want one more profile allowed".

Again, it's not just for the Jade Emperor profile, I want to pull as many out of this block as possible but not remove the block.

And while my arguments could be used to remove the ban, that's is not what I am using them for, for the analogy of a sword, a knife can kill, but I'm using it only to cut vegetables

>We never agreed to this, and it goes directly against what I've repeated to you multiple times.

The Jade Emperor doesn't use the Religious text from Daoism. Ahh okay.
I'd be fine with the Buddha from Journey to the West being given a profile now that I've given it more thought.
In that quote your issue was with the possibility of JE profile containing religious sources, it doesn't, so it should be fine as that was your own presented issue, meaning we agreed by the end of it.

>I assume it because you keep saying shit like "Banning religious profiles is as dumb as banning Star Wars profiles". I get that you may not want religious profiles unbanned, but you keep pushing arguments that would result in it

See knife analogy, also, my arguments are to push away the arbitrary limits placed on characters like the Jade Emperor, if they indirectly negate the entire thing then I believe that demonstrates some major issues with the reason why they're banned, but that's not for me to address, I just want to rid profiles like JE from being arbitrarily banned.

>Again, an un-nuanced representation.

This was Sera's argument, with her argument that Myth is downstream from Religion, not yours.

 

[Agnaa]

Again, it's not just for the Jade Emperor profile, I want to pull as many out of this block as possible but not remove the block.

What profiles do you want the block to be removed for? Or if that's too hard of a question to answer, what profiles do you want to leave the block in for? Because I might be more inclined to agree depending on your answer.

In that quote your issue was with the possibility of JE profile containing religious sources, it doesn't, so it should be fine as that was your own presented issue, meaning we agreed by the end of it.

I'm sorry if it was unclear. My issue with a JE profile wasn't about it containing religious sources, but about it containing sources that were taken as truth at the time, even if they weren't from traditional/official religious texts.

This was Sera's argument, with her argument that Myth is downstream from Religion, not yours.

My bad, but I think there's a meaningful distinction to draw between "based on" and "downstream from". Especially since the former also includes stuff like SMT, while I don't think the latter does.

 

[Udlmaster]

>What profiles do you want the block to be removed for?

Profiles where there can be a disconnect between the Religious version and the Mythical version, for example, with one we both agree with, Buddha from Religion v Buddha from the Journey to the West.

>My issue with a JE profile wasn't about it containing religious sources, but about it containing sources that were taken as truth at the time, even if they weren't from traditional/official religious texts.

As far as I can tell, these are just creation myths written down, I don't believe people believed Heaven was both Supreme Polarity and Non-dual as people constantly depict Heaven as being Yin/Yang in Daoism, Because Heaven and Earth are supposed to be a Duality.

This doesn't seem to follow with what the religion believes, now I cannot say no one believed this, because some people take fiction as literal truth (See people who believe Cthulhu is Real, See the girls who stabbed their friend to appease "Slender Man")

>while I don't think the latter does.

The definition of Downstream is vague enough to include it, as SMT is the end of the process of events with Religion of all kinds.

 

[Agnaa]

Profiles where there can be a disconnect between the Religious version and the Mythical version, for example, with one we both agree with, Buddha from Religion v Buddha from the Journey to the West.

I mean, Journey to the West is already allowed. If you want the block to only be removed for JE and profiles like it then I maintain my position.

As far as I can tell, these are just creation myths written down, I don't believe people believed Heaven was both Supreme Polarity and Non-dual as people constantly depict Heaven as being Yin/Yang in Daoism, Because Heaven and Earth are supposed to be a Duality.

This doesn't seem to follow with what the religion believes, now I cannot say no one believed this, because some people take fiction as literal truth (See people who believe Cthulhu is Real, See the girls who stabbed their friend to appease "Slender Man")

I can't quite tell, but "Creation myths written down" sounds much more like traditional mythology than fiction. I'd be fine with a JE profile if it only derived from sources that were seen as fictional at the time.

To the last part in brackets, I'm not going to disallow something because one person thought it was real, I'm more asking for what the common cultural consensus at the time would have been.

The definition of Downstream is vague enough to include it

Fair enough.

 

[Udlmaster]

>If you want the block to only be removed for JE and profiles like it then I maintain my position.

Again, Only those which fit the criteria of there being enough disconnect that they can be considered different enough to create a profile.

So, if we had say a YHVH from an old book but it's obviously disconnected to actual YHVH, then it should be allowed.

 

[Udlmaster]

>I can't quite tell, but "Creation myths written down" sounds much more like traditional mythology than fiction. I'd be fine with a JE profile if it only derived from sources that were seen as fictional at the time.

Well, Pan-Gu is among these, and they are currently allowed.

 

[Agnaa]

Again, Only those which fit the criteria of there being enough disconnect that they can be considered different enough to create a profile.

Understood.

Well, Pan-Gu is among these, and they are currently allowed.

Is Pan Gu still a figure in modern Chinese religion?

 

[Udlmaster]

>Is Pan Gu still a figure in modern Chinese religion?

But remember I firmly disagree with the idea that even with the disconnect they are the same being.

Pan-Gu used to be.

I believe there is some confusion on what I meant by Creation Myth.

The Creation Myth merely goes over how the world came to be from the Void (Wuji) and the properties of Heaven.

It doesn't contain (to my knowledge as the book is a preview and only has some pages) any religious parts.

 

[Agnaa]

If Pan-Gu isn't part of a religion with a significant quantity of modern-day followers, then it doesn't work as a counterexample to my point.

 

[Udlmaster]

If Pan-Gu isn't part of a religion with a significant quantity of modern-day followers, then it doesn't work as a counterexample to my point.

Pan-Gu has a old creation myth which used to be seen as true.

The Jade Emperor is also apart of that myth as Pan-Gu's assistant.

In another he's the assistant of one of the Three Heavenly Worthies and is given the throne to Heaven.

In this story it goes over the creation of the Universe from the Void and the properties of Heaven (it being non-dual and Supreme Polarity properties, not like "When you believe hard enough you go to heaven")

This isn't apart of any religion as far as I can tell, it's like Pan-Gu's cosmic egg, where all things were Void and he split the Cosmic egg and Taiji into Yin and Yang.

 

[Agnaa]

But Pan-Gu isn't a character in a religion with a significant quantity of modern-day followers.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Forgive me for being blunt but why do you care so much? If it's so much trouble to get it added in the first place due to potential controversy, why are you so hellbent on getting this through? It's not a controversial verse that's being tested but the ideals of actual people. Yeah yeah I read the entire thread and that you're not trying to advocate for religious profiles but what you are arguing for is close enough.

 

[Kepekley23]

I mean, if I spent a long-ass time researching stuff like this to put in a profile only for it to get rejected, I'd be slightly angry too.

 

[Udlmaster]

I mean, if I spent a long-ass time researching stuff like this to put in a profile only for it to get rejected, I'd be slightly angry too.

Indeed, I looked quite deeply into Chinese Mythology, and I found extreme interest in what I found, and I would like to have that be represented and shared.

I'm so hellbent because culture and myth is more important than Omnipotent Hobos and Writers with pens that transcend reality.

The philosophy for these is very interesting and that should be shared among other people.

 

[I'm_Blue_daba_dee_daba_die]

"Omnipotent hobos"

Are you talking about Reinhard? Hajun? TLOI? Akuto? of all of the Anime Tier 1's

 

[Antvasima]

Well, he has wasted an awful lot of our time and energy on this, and it could have been better spent handling other tasks.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Then request it to be covered on Overly Sarcastic Productions or Extra Credit. Not a site dedicated towards ''fictional'' characters.