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Mythology Feats and Cosmology

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Not a religious one? I thought that he was a part of the same religious background as the Jade Emperor.
 
>It is very hard to mistake the Shin Megami Tensei YHVH character for the original religious figure

At first it would be but the profile would dispel that, and we can do the same here, we can dispel that idea by having a note on the profile.

>You are not going to get this profile passed no matter how much you bother me and the others about it

I'm not bothering anyone, I'm presenting my arguments on a forum and are responding to arguments presenting against me, no one is forced to reply, so this is just a mischaracterisation, if you feel bothered then do not respond.

And even though I have constantly countered the arguments to which you agree with and have used the logic to which you agree with against you and other arguments, it seems this is just a default which is disappointing to say the least.

>and stop wasting our time and energy.

If you feel like you're wasting your time then do not respond, you don't have to, most of all if you feel like you're wasting your time because you're not going to contribute to the discussion and are going to get frustrated that counter arguments are going to be presented and people aren't going to take every word as law.
 
Antvasima said:
Not a religious one? I thought that he was a part of the same religious background as the Jade Emperor.
Click to expand...
According to most sources I've found online, Pangu is widely disregarded as mythological by the modern Chinese peoples, so not really.
 
Pan Gu is now widely disregarded as mythological by the Chinese, so not really.

Pan-Gu is heavily tied to the Jade Emperor, such as the Jade Emperor being his assistant, also ties to Daoist philosophy such as splitting Taiji into Yin and Yang.
 
@Sera, Agnaa, and Kepekley

What do you think about this solution?
 
Umm. No. PanGu is not connected to Jade Emperor. The Myth between the two is different.
 
Meaning, would it be fine if we name the page as "Jade Emperor (Journey to the West)", only base it on that work, and insert a footnote about it?

Udlmaster does have a point regarding that we allow YHVH (Which should really be renamed to "YHVH (Shin Megami Tensei)" to avoid confusion.)
 
Immortalgodd said:
Umm. No. PanGu is not connected to Jade Emperor. The Myth between the two is different.
Click to expand...
IIRC wasn't the Jade Emperor the Assistant to Pan-Gu in creating all creation.
 
YHVH from SMT and YHWH from Tokyo Babel are modern fictional characters. They are loosely (keyword: loosely) based upon their religious-mythological counterparts. Yahweh was never described or depicted as a giant golden head or a robot.

Modern fiction of today isn't comparable to fiction from thousands of years of ago, that's why we don't call Naruto a folktale, it's not a cultural story from years past. Now, as for renaming YHVH to "YHVH (Shin Megami Tensei)", I agree but mostly because the Brahman profile is called Brahman (Shin Megami Tensei), same with Shekinah (Shin Megami Tensei), Lucifer, etc. It's just inconsistent naming. He's also not the only YHVH in fiction. There's Deus (known as YHWH in Japan) from Xenogears and YHWH from Tokyo Babel (currently just listed as "God" for some reason).

Anyway on the main topic: I don't really care if the Jade Emperor is allowed or not anymore, but let's say it is. I'm not seeing anything 1-A from it or even High 1-A for that matter, especially since we can't just rely solely on Daoist theology to scale something.

If we accept mythology profiles, we must treat them with the same scrutiny as regular fiction. If SMT Brahman isn't 1-A for merely being...well...Brahman, then the Jade Emperor wouldn't be 1-A solely based on references to Daoist cosmology. However, what he would scale to, I don't know. I mean, most mythological stories that borrow from religion are deeply rooted in such, so it's only natural they would scale from a more casual sense, but we cannot do that in a power-scaling wiki with standards such as ours. This is why I feel those kinds of mythology files (not myth files in general, mind you) should just be ignored.
 
Usually, yes, but in this case, that would imply that the wiki officially recognises the SMT version as an accurate portrayal of the original religious deity.
 
I'm going on ahead and changing the links, don't mind the red links everyone they'll be automatically fixed once Ant renames the YHVH page.
 
Thank you for the help. I will rename the page then. Christianity at least usually encourages its followers to try to be non-violent, charitable, and turn the other cheek, even though human nature (which is largely contrary to all of that) often gets in the way, so I would rather not give the impression that we condemn them as a whole.
 
> If we accept mythology profiles, we must treat them with the same scrutiny as regular fiction.

I am fairly sure that's what we've all been arguing since the beginning, and I agree with it.
 
@Sera

Thank you very much for helping out. It is appreciated.
 
Kepekley23 said:
> If we accept mythology profiles, we must treat them with the same scrutiny as regular fiction.

I am fairly sure that's what we've all been arguing since the beginning, and I agree with it.
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Literally have, I scaled The Jade Emperor to 1-A not because "Muh Jade Emperor" but due to him being the underlying principle of the Cosmos, which would include Heaven which is Supreme Polarity and Non-dual meaning Many valued logic has to be applied meaning Type 4 transdualism which is 1-A.
 
Unfortunately, I do not have the time nor the energy to point out everything wrong with what you just said.
 
Udlmaster is very argumentative, which can be tiresome to deal with unfortunately.
 
No, I was just pointing something out. Being the underlying principle of the Cosmos and non-dual blah blah doesn't make something 1-A (especially in the new system), and I'm not going to bother with type 4 Transdualism, which shouldn't even exist. Keeping in mind that in actual Daoist theology, Jade Emperor would be something along the lines of High 1-A (and if you really want to get technical, 0) I'm not at all seeing why he'd be new system 1-A. All this blah blah is very hax oriented stuff.

Slowly but surely, you lot are going to realize why mythology files like these are a bad idea.
 
Well, the counterpoint is that the profiles might make our visitors interested in reading about history, but I agree that they recurrently seem too hard to figure out how to tier properly, given conflicting myths and scriptures.
 
>Cosmos and non-dual blah blah doesn't make something 1-A

Interesting you missed out that's it was also Supreme Polarity as well as a non-dual. I already told you that it would require Many valued logic which is Type 4, do not strawman me.

>Keeping in mind that in actual Daoist theology, Jade Emperor would be something along the lines of High 1-A

irrelevent, stop bringing up Religion, we're not talking about that.

>Slowly but surely, you lot are going to realize why mythology files like these are a bad idea.

This just screams of arrogance.
 
To be fair, I have been too impatient and somewhat rude as well, so it may be my fault. My apologies about that.
 
Yes. I know. I am just too easily mentally strained from arguing in general, due to managing many different tasks at the same time.
 
I'm just saying that you can't get super-high tiers based off fancy concepts anymore. I'm not trying to be arrogant or condescending. I'm just stating a point, especially since the new system is a thing and directly opposes the way we used to do things. So lots of pages will end up needing to be revised.
 
Sera EX said:
I'm just saying that you can't get super-high tiers based off fancy concepts anymore. I'm not trying to be arrogant or condescending. I'm just stating a point, especially since the new system is a thing and directly opposes the way we used to do things. So lots of pages will end up needing to be revised.
Click to expand...
How's about we work together instead.


You said you knew some High 1-A or even 0 things for the Jade Emperor, if you will, could you present them? That way we can replace the tiering and everyone can be happy.

Therell be an accurate tiering, you will be approved/made by an admin and made by the person one is seeking approval from.
 
I think that is from the religious scriptures, which we cannot use.
 
High 1-A/0 comes from the fact that NLF does not apply to real life religion or philosophy (science as well). It's a fallacy in vs debating only.
 
>You've gone from using "culture" to using the Mythology page definition

Firstly, I never used "culture" as a definition for why the Jade Emperor profile shouldn't be around. You said there was no difference between mythology and fictional stories, and I said the difference was cultural context, contrasting that with an actual difference within the texts.

Now, the definition of which cultural contexts are disallowed is given in the Mythology page, which is why I directed you there.

>you cannot fault the profile because it fits within that definition, because it doesn't use Religion

Read what I said here

>Sun Wukong should be deleted too

Read what Kep and many others already said about this issue when it was brought up 100 posts ago.
 
Some Myths are more consistent than others, largely due to how some mostly derive from singular sources. Such as how our knowledge of Norse Mythology largely derives from the Edda.

Though many others Myths, deriving from many different sources, and writers, could lead to very different Power Levels. Along with different tales, which can outright contradict each other.

Also some Myths, like those in Taoism, do flow down into modern religions like Shenism.

---

I can see your point Sera, Myths can be very inconsistent, and it would be unfair to only include certain myths, based only upon consistency, rather than on followership.

It would also be a path to offending those who follow related faiths, for it would be easy to see it as considering their beliefs to be false, and rating their dieties in death matches. It would also be hard for them to look at it objectively, due to personal feelings.

Also Udlmaster seems to just be getting angry based upon you disagreeing with him. Some people just get extremely attached to their opinion, and get angry when people disagree with it. It's not your fault.
 
>Firstly, I never used "culture" as a definition for why the Jade Emperor profile shouldn't be around.

You used it to justify why Mythological texts and religious texts aren't the same as fictional and was why they cannot be used:

"I consider religion/mythology/fictional stories different through cultural context, rather than through textual substance."

With you now changing the definition from culture, there is now no difference between them all and therefore, they're all free game.

And yes, you was trying to use the culture example to stop the Jade Emperor profile, only indirectly.

>Read what I said here

However, there is no issues because they're all the same thing, pieces of literature.

>Read what Kep and many others already said about this issue when it was brought up 100 posts ago.

Your culture argument drags in Wukong due to Wukong having a cultural effect, a massive one, on China and the rest of the world.
 
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