Ms. Marvel Upgrade

[LordTracer]

Looking through some of Carol Danvers' feats, she seems to be pretty consistently 4-B. However, she is clearly inferior to the likes of The Hulk, Thor and others on that level. The fact that Gladiator one-shot her as Binary should indicate this. But Carol does have quite a few feats indicating she is on the level of 4-Bs such as She-Hulk, Iron Ma and Wonder Ma. I've also found some non-AP/durability feats for her that may qualify for an upgrade.

Attack Potency

- She took down the Hulkbuster.

- She sent She-Hulk flying with a kick.

- Carol KOed Nuclear Man in a single blow. For context, Nuclear Man has taken several blows from She-Hulk and remained standing.

- Carol one-punched Valkyrie, who has withstood blows from She-Hulk on two separate occasions.

- She fought pretty evenly with Wonder Ma.

- She destroyed the Hulkbuster.

- She landed a blow on an Unstable Sentry and sent him flying.

- She damaged Fin Fang Foom.

- She beat down the Model Prime Iron Man armor.

Durability

- She withstood a sonic scream from a Super-Skrull copying Black Bolt.

- She survived a point-blank blast from Ultro.

- She was relatively unscathed by a blast from Robbie Reyes.

- She blocked a punch from the Hulkbuster.

- She withstood a blow from Wonder Ma, as well as a tackle from him.

Speed

- She dodged an attack that hit both Thor and Iron Ma.

- She completed a training regiment faster than any Avenger apart from Quicksilver.

- She flew at a comparable speed to Thor and Iron Ma.

Energy Absorption

- She absorbed energy from Count Nefaria. She later did this to the point that she knocked him unconscious.

Lifting Strength

- Caught and threw a large asteroid.

- Lifted a Celestial.

Binary

- She took down Proxima Midnight in a single shot and survived a blow from Thanos. Proxima was able to trade blows with Unworthy Thor.

- She flew through the Collective, which has taken blows from The Sentry.

Overall Proposals

Carol Danvers should be given a major upgrade, the details of which are displayed in this blog here. If this is accepted, it would scale to:

• Angela: Listed as comparable to Carol, and has fought Thor several times. Thor was either Unworthy or exhausted during these fights, meaning it wouldn't be too contradictory to her scaling to Carol.

• Giant-Ma: Listed as comparable to Carol. This one is questionable to me, but if everyone else thinks this is fine, then he scales.

• M.O.D.O.K: Listed as having defeated Carol, and this would be consistent with the other 4-B showings on his profile.

• Moonstone: Listed as comparable to Carol.

 

[Eficiente]

The Hulkbuster is 4-B? Wasn't it weakening Hulk on their fight and still losing?

 

[C2_of_Omegon]

I'll respond more a little later (I've got some stuff to take care of) but I can say this.:

Anything dealing with Carol vs Iron Man is PIS/outlier. Carol as Binary (which is her at her strongest) gets oneshot by Gladiator whose around Green Hulk and Thor's level ( > 389 Kilofoe). Iron Man scales over that being closer to WB Hulk (a little less than 1000 kilofoe).

So, her fight and beating down Iron Man (in her base form no less) makes little sense.

 

[LordTracer]

@Eficiente Yep, at least it's used in the Model Prime's 4-B justification.

@C2 See, there's an issue there because Carol in base is also comparable to She-Hulk, who's profile notes her as being superior to Red She-Hulk, who fought WW Hulk. But even if you ignore the Iron Man stuff, Carol still has quite a bit of 4-B justification.

 

[C2_of_Omegon]

@Tracer

Then that shows those characters need to be reviewed because they don't make much sense. Simply fighting a character doesn't mean you automatically scale to them. Otherwise, there are a lot of characters in the Megafoe range that shouldn't be and/or we're going to be upgrading a lot of people.

Right now, I'm of tired and not in the mood to review everything until tomorrow but I'll leave this: at a glance, a lot of these 'feats' are just one panel showings with no context (Fin Fang Foom or Thanos) or start to show a fight but don't show how it ended (Wonder Man). All of that is important.

Also, sending a character flying doesn't mean much. It depends if that strike did any damage. For an example, see here.

Also, I will say that we need more eyes on this.

 

[KLOL506]

C2 makes sense.

 

[Hykuu]

- the Civil War Hulkbuster has nothing to indicate it being on par with the others, last time I checked.

- Boros also sent saitama flying with a few of his punches

- I don't think we scale from Classic iterations that much specially since Mahkizmo basically died and "reformed" in a weaker body?

- This one seems legit

- This one aswell, and Wonder Man couldn't be holding back

- refer to the first statement

- during this instance the sentry was easily the most unstable we have seen him Imo, he could still damage ultron though, but he was still incapped by that same ultron and I am pretty sure sentry was just fine after that blow.

- completely Inconsistent even if he was weakend


- Seems legit

- Tbh the story was pretty much filled with PIS but either way, seems 4-B if that iron man was

- damnnnnnnnnnn, This basically is extremely on the edge of "outlier" but also seems a bit consistent weirdly

- k

- k

- refer to the first point

- k

- completely Inconsistent even if he was weakend


Speed

- Cap did help her but it should still scale

rest seems fine

I am very neutral on this, I will follow and see what happens though

 

[Antvasima]

The Hulkbuster is 4-B? Wasn't it weakening Hulk on their fight and still losing?

That's the Black Panther Hulkbuster.

 

[Antvasima]

I am personally uncertain about this and would prefer more input, but Rogue shouldn't scale, as she had Carol's old set of powers, not the ones Carol gained after becoming Binary. She has gradually been portrayed as far more powerful in recent years, and also has a variable power level depending on how much energy she has absorbed, and is subject to favourable PIS from biased clueless writers such as Brian Bendis (the Nefaria and Thanos moments for example), which turns her very hard to scale properly.

 

[LordTracer]

@C2

"Simply fighting a character doesn't mean you automatically scale to them."

> I know that. However (I'm assuming you're talking about Carol v. Wonder Man here) when one character is bloodlusted and explicitly out to kill, 9/10 times the other person is going to scale. Also just saying, your point here makes her taking down Iron Man less inconsistent.

"a lot of these 'feats' are just one panel showings with no context (Fin Fang Foom or Thanos) or start to show a fight but don't show how it ended (Wonder Man). All of that is important."

> One of the Thanos links gives the issue where the fight happened (Civil War II #1), and the Wonder Man fight shows Carol damaging him and taking several attacks from him. Pretty sure that should still show she's at least near his level, but I could try to find the comic.

"Also, sending a character flying doesn't mean much. It depends if that strike did any damage."

> Just judging by the speech bubble that came from She-Hulk after that hit, I'd say it damaged her.

@Hykuu

"Boros also sent saitama flying with a few of his punches"

> See above, pretty sure She-Hulk was harmed by Carol's strike.

"completely Inconsistent even if he was weakend"

> I don't see how it'd be inconsistent when Thanos isn't at full strength. Also Binary survived an attack from a fully powered Thanos during Infinity, so that could maybe support this.

@Ant

I removed Rogue and Gambit from the scaling list.

 

[Hykuu]

@Tracer

That's not really what's shown at all, in fact all we see is her just instantly jumping on Carol again.

Didn't thanos have literal god cancer beforehand and was already fighting other avengers? and Yes I am aware of that Instance, but the difference between Binary and Carol is HUGE aswell.

This feat does exist tho

 

[Antvasima]

We would have to solve the problem of how to scale Rogue, as she only had Carol's old set of powers. She did survive getting punched to the Moon once though.

 

[LordTracer]

@Hykuu Eh, Carol also pretty much shrugged off the punch She-Hulk landed on her. And looking back at the Thanos thing, it is kinda weird since Thanos was getting damaged by the likes of the Human Torch, so I suppose it's not really useable as AP justification.

 

[Hykuu]

Ig that would just fall into the durability section then, instead of AP

 

[Antvasima]

Bendis has had Thanos severely damaged by current Drax, and Cyclops doing the same to Dormammu as well. He has a bad habit of letting his favoured characters easily triumph over severely mischaracterised and depowered villains, who should be far out of their leagues.

 

[LordTracer]

Okay, I removed the CWII Thanos stuff from the OP and blog.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thanks.

 

[SuperAPM]

One thing I'll say quickly is that guys like She-Hulk and Wonder Man probably need their stats adjusted, or in Jennifer's case at least in reference to her pre-amp self.

I think Carol would benefit from a variable statistic as well, there was this one feat that was brought to my attentio where she seems to have amped herself with enough energy to "punch a hole through a star." I'm unsure of the full context, so if anyone has the comic in question for verification that would be very helpful.

 

[Antvasima]

Pre-Amplification statistics for She-Hulk and Wonder Man might be useful, yes.

 

[Antvasima]

I think that the scan in question comes from the latest or second to latest issue of Jason Aaron's Avengers run.

 

[LordTracer]

One thing I'll say quickly is that guys like She-Hulk and Wonder Man probably need their stats adjusted, or in Jennifer's case at least in reference to her pre-amp self.

I think Carol would benefit from a variable statistic as well, there was this one feat that was brought to my attentio where she seems to have amped herself with enough energy to "punch a hole through a star." I'm unsure of the full context, so if anyone has the comic in question for verification that would be very helpful.

I could see Binary having a variable statistic, but why base Carol?

 

[SuperAPM]

It was to my understanding that Binary's power level is completely stationary and Carol needs to absorb a certain amount of energy to reach that level. So any amount of energy absorbed between her base level and Binary form would cause her to increase in power to a certain level in between those two states.

 

[Antvasima]

SuperAPM is correct. She also used to be treated as just "Class 50" in strength, not on par with major powerhouses.

 

[LordTracer]

Okay, then perhaps she should have 'Pre-Binary' and 'Post-Binary' statistics. Post-Binary would be 4-B and Pre-Binary would be... I guess unknown, until we find some feats for her.

 

[LordTracer]

Also some more 4-B energy absorption feats:

- Carol absorbs energy from Blue Marvel twice.

 

[Antvasima]

I suppose that seems to make sense.

 

[LordTracer]

There doesn't seem to be many feats for Pre-Binary Carol/Rogue with Carol's powers that I can find, apart from feats showing her upper limit at 5-B, as Colossus overpowered her, she could only make a dent i Magneto's wall and Thor no-sold her punch, although he did compare her to a Frost Giant if that means anything.

 

[Antvasima]

She was officially supposed to be weaker than Colossus even before he was powered up significantly late in Claremont's run.

 

[LordTracer]

Yeah, so she's less than 5-B. Could the statistics for Pre-Binary Carol and Rogue with these powers just be left as unknown then?

 

[SuperAPM]

Well, she's definately High 6-B at bare minimum. Being superior to suits of armor that are at least comparable to the Model 8.

 

[LordTracer]

So would her Pre-Binary statistics look something like this?

 

[SuperAPM]

Something like that. I would change the keys to:

Base | Pre-Binary | Binary

And her Pre Binary key's tier should be: Varies from 6-A to 4-B

 

[LordTracer]

So 4-B | Varies. 6-A to 4-B | 4-B? Where would the 6-A and 4-B for Pre-Binary come from?

 

[Hykuu]

Agree with the changes now tbh

 

[SuperAPM]

No, her base key is High 6-B. Her Pre Binary varies tier comes from the fact that her pwoer level is dependant on how much energy she's absorbed, so somewhere between 6-A (since its above her High 6-B stat) and 4-B (which is lower than her Binary state)

 

[LordTracer]

Yes but I'm trying to argue that her current base form is normally 4-B. Pre-Binary is supposed to mean Carol before the whole Rogue stuff happened and Post-Binary is her current statistics.

 

[Hykuu]

Actually, on second thought regarding the Hulkbuster stuff

if tony's suit was 4-B within civil war, the original one, then the hulkbuster in that comic would be above that due to it being percieved as tony bringing out "the big guns" at that point, so it should be 4-B aswell.

So yeah, that basically makes it consistent imo.

 

[SuperAPM]

We'll sort than after more discussion, but for the time being those are the current statistics.

 

[Antvasima]

Look, first Carol got her powers from the Kree psyche-magnetron. She was officially only supposed to be Class 50 at this point, less than model 8 Iron Man, which was Class 70.

Then Rogue stole them and left her power- and memory-less.

Then the Brood experimented on Carol, and she gained the powers of Binary.

Then her power was significantly lessened during Kurt Busiek's Avengers run, but she could still enter a Binary state by absorbing enough energy.

Then she was gradually portrayed as more powerful in base state over the years, as Marvel wanted to turn her into a political icon.

 

[Antvasima]

In translation, she was nowhere near 4-B in her Class 50 state, or in the years after being depowered, but she was once portrayed as capable of fighting the Grey Hulk, during the Wendigo invasion story in the Hulk's own comicbook.