Monster Hunter General Discussion Thread.

[Sigilavox]

Not sure if it's a relevant equivalence, but this whole thing does bring to mind God of War where the creators explicitly say "yeah canonically Kratos would just instantly one-shot everything he encounters and open chests with ease but that's not very fun"

Yeah, that's fair. The whole High Rank/G-Rank thing and monster orders are always an inherent gameplay restriction, I just feel like the universe consistently depicts its monsters as basically big animals with wondrous powers who aren't super far detached from each other whenever given a choice, instead of full-on "I can casually blow up a continent". In that regard, Zorah was mostly a first for the series imo, and even then, it was sorta handwaved with the whole everstream thing. For the purposes of this wiki though, maybe not.

I mean, those turf wars are it tying with High 6-Cs, so I don't quite know. It's at least somewhat likely given it is a genuine threat in Iceborne that beat the Huntsman and forced Selina to break out high tech weapons to repel, so it might be a thing

Yeah, the people keep talking about Velkhana being able to freeze large monsters solid like it's a big deal among elder dragons, and the whole Anjanath being dead was apparently the kicker where the Commander just decided to up and evacuate since it was such a huge threat... despite them taking out Xeno'jiiva and also repelling Zorah beforehand. Either way, at least some of those High 6-Cs can tangle with it. Maybe some Teo/Kush/etc. individuals can vary up to Low 6-B?

never did make that roar dodge calc, I'm a bit all over the place mentally

Totally fine. No need to feel pressure to do anything that's a project out of passion rather than sustenance!

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

So are we making Tempered and Arch-Tempered Keys for the Monsters who have those forms? Those are pretty significant buffs since the Guidebook explicitly says that Tempered Monsters are as powerful as Elder Dragons outright.

 

[Sigilavox]

So are we making Tempered and Arch-Tempered Keys for the Monsters who have those forms? Those are pretty significant buffs since the Guidebook explicitly says that Tempered Monsters are as powerful as Elder Dragons outright.

I don't know about calling them "tempered" or "arch-tempered" since not all apexes have tempered forms and not all elder dragons have arch-tempered forms, but I certainly could see something akin to a "Varies from High 8-C to High 6-C" rating for some apexes, since these are profiles for, like, whole species, not individuals.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

I don't know about calling them "tempered" or "arch-tempered" since not all apexes have tempered forms and not all elder dragons have arch-tempered forms, but I certainly could see something akin to a "Varies from High 8-C to High 6-C" rating for some apexes, since these are profiles for, like, whole species, not individuals.

No, they definitely need new keys for that since it's a straight up new form for them, it's not just "Oh hey, they look the same but one's stronger" it's "Oh hey, they're literally gleaming like metal because they have so much damn Bioenergy that it's made them all cracked out". Just because some species don't have Tempered or Arch-Tempered Forms doesn't mean we shouldn't make Keys for the ones that do.

 

[DMUA]

it's not just "Oh hey, they look the same but one's stronger"

I feel you're referring to another "Tempered Monster" type than the one currently in my mind

Like that is just literally what they are, outside of Arch Tempered getting some new (more annoying) mechanics which are ultimately just enhancements of their base abilities

Not to mention the questionability of the power levels they're described to have in guidebooks

 

[DMUA]

I know awhile ago, Deviants got downgraded to 7-B since there were just no solid statements on them being stronger than Elder Dragons

Honestly, thinking about it and as I dip my toes into Generations (not that I've really played it so much as dug up info on it), 1, weaker deviants probably shouldn't scale even that high, 2, yeah Bloodbath just has a whole string of meaty dialogue on how much it far outclasses even veteran hunters fully capable of killing Deviljhos as a standard routine

 

[JoshSSJGod]

I know awhile ago, Deviants got downgraded to 7-B since there were just no solid statements on them being stronger than Elder Dragons

Honestly, thinking about it and as I dip my toes into Generations (not that I've really played it so much as dug up info on it), 1, weaker deviants probably shouldn't scale even that high, 2, yeah Bloodbath just has a whole string of meaty dialogue on how much it far outclasses even veteran hunters fully capable of killing Deviljhos as a standard routine

I schnee I schnee, nice find though I find it funny how the main lads who got downgraded (Bloodbath and the Silver Raths) both had something come up that had them be superior to ED level monsters.

 

[DMUA]

Silver Rathalos also wasn't a deviant but I guess the same principle applies

By the way, can anyone dig up like, guidebooks for 4U and GU? I know the World one's been passed around a few times but I am curious about previous entries and what might be gleaned from there

 

[Sigilavox]

Honestly, thinking about it and as I dip my toes into Generations (not that I've really played it so much as dug up info on it), 1, weaker deviants probably shouldn't scale even that high, 2, yeah Bloodbath just has a whole string of meaty dialogue on how much it far outclasses even veteran hunters fully capable of killing Deviljhos as a standard routine

Yeah, that sounds like solid evidence Bloodbath outclasses a typical Deviljho.

Silver Rathalos also wasn't a deviant but I guess the same principle applies

By the way, can anyone dig up like, guidebooks for 4U and GU? I know the World one's been passed around a few times but I am curious about previous entries and what might be gleaned from there

No idea whether they were even released in the west. BannedLagiacrus is the only source for stuff like that iirc

 

[Sigilavox]

Does anybody want to move forward on the possibility of monster intraspecies AP variability or at least a re-evaluation of how we scale species?

Whether it's baseline High 6-C or bringing everybody down to High 8-C with exceptions for Environmental Destruction, or slapping a Varies wholesale, I have little preference, but the way things are - this huge AP gap - is still pretty silly to me!

1. Bazelgeuse's introduction cutscene for Rise shows it slamming headfirst into a Tigrex after bombing the latter with several scales, and the Tigrex has strength enough to not only recover its wits while being blown up and blasted back but to actively push itself off of and recover from the attack. This is by far Bazelgeuse's strongest attack, and it doesn't even knock the Tigrex down, let alone finish it.

2. Congalala not only survives a Deviljho's bite right to the neck but smacks it back hard enough to make it dizzy in Legends of the Guild. Plus, the hunters were using the same equipment to make injuries on both the Congalala and Deviljho and even killed the latter, so... there's that. Why would Deviljho-killing hunters need all their fancy trap equipment and hunting tactics just to capture a Congalala? They could just one-shot it if Deviljho was truly scaled so much higher.

3. In Rise's intro cutscene Rathian felt comfortable enough to go after Rajang and even start attacking it and the latter doesn't tank but notably dodges its attacks. Noteworthy also is Rajang's turf war with regular wyverns, where Legiana, Rathalos, and Rathian actually strike it hard enough to flinch it. I feel that the example that no damage happens to Rajang from those turf wars in-game really has more to do with Iceborne's precedent for ties and victories in turf wars; Rathalos doesn't hurt Glavenus at all when it does its "losing" turf war variant, despite that same animation causing damage to other brutes like Brachydios.

4. There's also the fact that Zinogre openly goes up against Scorned Magnamalo and contests it enough in a head-to-head clash to make the latter enter its Raging Hellfire state, which is... well, it's something. While clearly being portrayed as its lesser in terms of raw power, a Zinogre not only feels comfortable going after Scorned but still manages to make it work for the victory. It's not even a case like Violet Mizutsune's where the Zinogre might have thought it was a regular Magnamalo instead of its empowered variant, since that would mean that Zinogre as a species are find going up against them anyways.

As for the latter two cases, unless it's literally a species' first encounter with another, initiating combat with another creature in nature is a pretty solid indication that it's worked at least sometimes in the past in order for the former species to still be extant and have adapted to the same environment. Attacking something way out of your league is not a case of animalistic intelligence but rather because it's cornered, sick, or brooding since that stuff just doesn't work in nature. Instincts arise from the traits of those who survive. Species who do stupid things like that will just not continue, unless they weren't so stupid in the first place!

Magnamalo, Bazelgeuse, Rajang, and even Deviljho are just another species of monster like Rathalos, it's not even a "this creature is a living force of nature who can clear the skies themselves!" or "it's super rare!" (Rajang excluded for the latter point, I guess). For example, Bazelgeuse is known in many places across the world as "the Bomber Wyvern" and holds an extremely wide range over which its species roam.

There's also the case where variants and deviants are the same species yet are scaled to have so much higher AP due to environmental, personal, or other factors, like just growing up in a cold place or being really old for some cases. In my eyes, these species are either variable or most of them scale.

 

[DMUA]

Whether it's baseline High 6-C or bringing everybody down to High 8-C with exceptions for Environmental Destruction, or slapping a Varies wholesale, I have little preference, but the way things are - this huge AP gap - is still pretty silly to me!

It's fiction. The writers and everyone else putting work into MH don't abide by our strict rules, so they'll present a monster as vastly stronger in terms of statement and placement, but also not emphasize it with outright oneshots or speed blitzes like what our standards would suggest. There's still undeniably a gap, and sometimes on this site we have to live with it being way bigger than it feels like it should be (Heck, on Discord I saw a conversation between two buddies on how Soul Eater's final act involved the main characters getting a bunch of power ups to fight something that almost killed them via a casual wave, meanwhile side characters got no such boost and are still at least partially keeping up, so there's a confusing gap between 8-A and 6-C)

1. Bazelgeuse's introduction cutscene for Rise shows it slamming headfirst into a Tigrex after bombing the latter with several scales, and the Tigrex has strength enough to not only recover its wits while being blown up and blasted back but to actively push itself off of and recover from the attack. This is by far Bazelgeuse's strongest attack, and it doesn't even knock the Tigrex down, let alone finish it.

That's... Well, it speaks for itself but it's kinda weird when Deviljho curbstomps every Apex one by one in World while being repelled outright from a single series of blasts on Bazelgeuse's part, yet a full blown charge directly into a Tigrex apparently doesn't even seem to wound it significantly.

2. Congalala not only survives a Deviljho's bite right to the neck but smacks it back hard enough to make it dizzy in Legends of the Guild. Plus, the hunters were using the same equipment to make injuries on both the Congalala and Deviljho and even killed the latter, so... there's that. Why would Deviljho-killing hunters need all their fancy trap equipment and hunting tactics just to capture a Congalala? They could just one-shot it if Deviljho was truly scaled so much higher.

Ties into what I've already said and on that note this whole scene really, profoundly does not make sense to me (especially when Deviljho is supposed to be a super imposing threat as of High Rank, where plenty of games end Low Rank via taking on an Elder Dragon, so the idea that a random, not even frenzied Congalala is able to do anything besides get instantly demolished by Deviljho just throws me way off. Even then, this is still Congalala getting beaten up and not even from the games themselves, so I don't think it's a strict statement of them being on the same level of strength at all)

3. In Rise's intro cutscene Rathian felt comfortable enough to go after Rajang and even start attacking it and the latter doesn't tank but notably dodges its attacks. Noteworthy also is Rajang's turf war with regular wyverns, where Legiana, Rathalos, and Rathian actually strike it hard enough to flinch it. I feel that the example that no damage happens to Rajang from those turf wars in-game really has more to do with Iceborne's precedent for ties and victories in turf wars; Rathalos doesn't hurt Glavenus at all when it does its "losing" turf war variant, despite that same animation causing damage to other brutes like Brachydios.

Dodging is a speed thing, and I did already mention that Apexes scaling to Massively Hypersonic almost doesn't seem that strange given I can't think of any contradictions like I can here. Either way, this entire cutscene is still Rathian getting curbstomped and retreating moments after they pick that fight, so I imagine it just got reckless and it definitely was lucky to get away with it's life. In terms of the turf wars, that's all it is, a flinch. By in universe logic even a Congalala can flinch a Deviljho, that's just a very different thing from actually being in their league of strength. I guess there is an interesting observation about the damage thing, but it doesn't matter when what we directly see still wouldn't be much in terms of damage anyways.

4. There's also the fact that Zinogre openly goes up against Scorned Magnamalo and contests it enough in a head-to-head clash to make the latter enter its Raging Hellfire state, which is... well, it's something. While clearly being portrayed as its lesser in terms of raw power, a Zinogre not only feels comfortable going after Scorned but still manages to make it work for the victory. It's not even a case like Violet Mizutsune's where the Zinogre might have thought it was a regular Magnamalo instead of its empowered variant, since that would mean that Zinogre as a species are find going up against them anyways.

Yeah I don't disagree with the fact it isn't really presented at Magnamalo overtly stomping them, but they still ultimately lose and Magnamalo doesn't really seem even winded from the encounter, so

Species who do stupid things like that will just not continue, unless they weren't so stupid in the first place!

Even full on, Average intelligence people can do really stupid stuff from time to time. An animal that may have not had enough experience with a Magnamalo or a Rajang to know you don't mess with them making a mistake and getting into a very sternly losing battle is totally feasible, just as it is for a person to overestimate themselves thinking they could punch out pro boxers (or even proper martial artists believing MMA is no match for them) only to get their shot and utterly destroyed in the process. Naturally, humanity hasn't killed itself on reckless behavior because by and large we avoid this, just as Rathian or Zinogre would avoid taking on something that could easily kill them like this.

Magnamalo, Bazelgeuse, Rajang, and even Deviljho are just another species of monster like Rathalos, it's not even a "this creature is a living force of nature who can clear the skies themselves!" or "it's super rare!" (Rajang excluded for the latter point, I guess). For example, Bazelgeuse is known in many places across the world as "the Bomber Wyvern" and holds an extremely wide range over which its species roam.

All of these creatures are still treated as absolute menaces that invade territory and cause major havoc until they're dealt with. Magnamalo's death was a rite of passage for the hunter of (insert village here I forgot the spelling of), and as I said earlier, both Deviljho and Bazelgeuse only appear in high rank as a major new complication even for how strong you've become as a hunter by that point, not just because they'll barge in but they're more than strong enough to give you trouble until you've picked up extra gear you can use to even the odds and properly fight them.

There's also the case where variants and deviants are the same species yet are scaled to have so much higher AP due to environmental, personal, or other factors, like just growing up in a cold place or being really old for some cases. In my eyes, these species are either variable or most of them scale.

That's still them adapting and growing stronger as a result of adverse conditions. That sort of supports the gap, more than it weakens it.

 

[Sigilavox]

So, to confirm: by the rules of the MH VS verse, a monster smacking another dizzy or knocking them over doesn't count for AP? Also, I totally get the point about the strictness of the VSBattles scaling rules, which is partially why the whole concept of powerscaling doesn't normally occupy my mind. Man, I mostly like citing cool attacks and keeping abilities in a nice little list. Anyways, regarding a few points:

That's... Well, it speaks for itself but it's kinda weird when Deviljho curbstomps every Apex one by one in World while being repelled outright from a single series of blasts on Bazelgeuse's part, yet a full blown charge directly into a Tigrex apparently doesn't even seem to wound it significantly.

Yeah, it's a pretty weird scene from the perspective of the VSBattles wiki, but this scene is perfectly fine from an in-universe standpoint and would make sense if there weren't as huge a gap between the physical abilities of these monsters.

Ties into what I've already said and on that note this whole scene really, profoundly does not make sense to me (especially when Deviljho is supposed to be a super imposing threat as of High Rank, where plenty of games end Low Rank via taking on an Elder Dragon, so the idea that a random, not even frenzied Congalala is able to do anything besides get instantly demolished by Deviljho just throws me way off. Even then, this is still Congalala getting beaten up and not even from the games themselves, so I don't think it's a strict statement of them being on the same level of strength at all)

I find the scene to be pretty believable, all things considered. That movie as a whole, shoddy writing admitted, feels more akin to what the in-game world and cutscenes are supposed to portray rather what gameplay limitations can. There are considerations about poaching, hunting a single monster is far more of an effort (and reward) than just dropping in to face the beast head-on for twenty straight in-game hours with the expectation of three scales and a fang, and even the most skilled hunters struggle to put down stuff like Nerscylla, Deviljho, and Lunastra, with environmental features, one's equipment, and working together all providing huge returns on what a hunter can and cannot face. A flood, itself a force of nature that can damn an entire village (pun intended), can take out a Lunastra.

This tracks with all the World cutscenes showing your hunter treating basically every large monster with caution no matter how "weak" they may be in-game, even after you defeat elder dragons. As an aside, that movie's Lunastra was portrayed as believably powerful without necessarily needing to be capable of blowing up entire islands; its ambient wildfires alone fully justified the "force of nature given flesh" moniker and its physical abilities, while not invincible, were portrayed as very powerful among monsters.

Even full on, Average intelligence people can do really stupid stuff from time to time. An animal that may have not had enough experience with a Magnamalo or a Rajang to know you don't mess with them making a mistake and getting into a very sternly losing battle is totally feasible, just as it is for a person to overestimate themselves thinking they could punch out pro boxers (or even proper martial artists believing MMA is no match for them) only to get their shot and utterly destroyed in the process. Naturally, humanity hasn't killed itself on reckless behavior because by and large we avoid this, just as Rathian or Zinogre would avoid taking on something that could easily kill them like this.

I'm fairly sure that doing reckless or "stupid" things - especially those regarding combat and survival - is very much a human thing and not inherent to the entire animal kingdom. Animal life operates strictly to 1. get nutrients to continue, and 2. reproduce. They're pretty tightly optimized for the continuation of their own species, while habits and behaviors that don't contribute to this really don't exist for long.

Animals, especially large predators, avoid fighting if they can afford to considering that it's a huge waste of energy with no positive returns relative to predation, and the extra risk of disfigurement and death that can result from fighting similarly sized monsters. Like imagine a lynx or a coyote "miscalculating the threat" and charging at an animal - not one of its prey items and a predator, no less - that's easily twice or thrice its bulk like a lion or a rhinoceros. If it were cornered or had some kind of infection, maybe. But that Zinogre had zero reason to run up and engage that Scorned outside of (1) territoriality, which is itself never mentioned as a trait of Zinogre, or what was expected to be a case of (2) interspecific competition, which implies that they (or at least a standard Magnamalo) can contest each other at all. The difference between human and animal conceptions of intelligence really can't be understated here.

All of these creatures are still treated as absolute menaces that invade territory and cause major havoc until they're dealt with. Magnamalo's death was a rite of passage for the hunter of (insert village here I forgot the spelling of), and as I said earlier, both Deviljho and Bazelgeuse only appear in high rank as a major new complication even for how strong you've become as a hunter by that point, not just because they'll barge in but they're more than strong enough to give you trouble until you've picked up extra gear you can use to even the odds and properly fight them.

Just like how a monster can believably threaten all of human civilization without necessarily being able to wipe the surface, being considered a massive threat does not inherently equate to having higher AP. Factors such as range, aggression, behavior and the like can make certain monsters more dangerous than others. Seregios, for example, was treated as super dangerous and out of one's league and all that, while its abilities remain on par with Rathalos/Azure Rathalos. Magnamalo especially was seen as a threat that would only threaten the village if it could feast on the Rampage's unnatural density of wounded and dying monsters to balloon its hellfire powers and such.

That's still them adapting and growing stronger as a result of adverse conditions. That sort of supports the gap, more than it weakens it.

Could you explain this? I'm not sure how this follows. If any given individual could achieve that level of power, then the species itself on a whole has individuals who are that strong, therefore justifying a varied key given the profiles are of species, not individuals.

 

[DMUA]

So, to confirm: by the rules of the MH VS verse, a monster smacking another dizzy or knocking them over doesn't count for AP?

That by itself shouldn't, nah

Yeah, it's a pretty weird scene from the perspective of the VSBattles wiki, but this scene is perfectly fine from an in-universe standpoint and would make sense if there weren't as huge a gap between the physical abilities of these monsters.

I guess it's not impossible outside of the direct showings that call this into question (Bazelgeuse can chase off a Rajang with explosions in this very game, even, so it's not like World and Rise's creators just believe Bazelgeuse should be on a different level here)

That movie as a whole, shoddy writing admitted

(Not that this is really a counterargument but the writing quality being poor does suggest they didn't really refer to notes on how strong monsters should be relative to each other, worse materials in a series can very easily result in scaling going unhinged, see the sequel trilogy of Star Wars or Dragon Ball Super)

even the most skilled hunters struggle to put down stuff like Nerscylla, Deviljho, and Lunastra, with environmental features, one's equipment, and working together all providing huge returns on what a hunter can and cannot face. A flood, itself a force of nature that can damn an entire village (pun intended), can take out a Lunastra.

This is a bit confusing with how it's written. You're trying to emphasize that indeed, any monster is a threat, but two of three of what you said are things that are on the level of an Elder Dragon anyways, so it confuses the message of the gap being much smaller than what we currently portray it as

I'm fairly sure that doing reckless or "stupid" things - especially those regarding combat and survival - is very much a human thing and not inherent to the entire animal kingdom. Animal life operates strictly to 1. get nutrients to continue, and 2. reproduce. They're pretty tightly optimized for the continuation of their own species, while habits and behaviors that don't contribute to this really don't exist for long.

No brain, human or otherwise, is ever perfectly optimized. The idea that it's "survival of the fittest" is a misleading statement itself, the more accurate idea is "survival of the fit enough", anything that is at the baseline of living long enough to reproduce is permissible. Heck, we have an entire race of creatures that spends all day eating and plenty of cases don't know how to reproduce at all (Pandas, look it up) and they hanged on for far longer than they should have without human intervention

There is an internet worth of videos of Dogs, Cats, or any animal you can think of occasionally doing something either overtly stupid or wildly unlucky, and these outliers just do exist, even by and large you can expect them to have a stronger survival instinct than that. Again, these are two random cases of creatures getting in over their heads, not an indication they're genuinely strong enough to stand a chance against something that's otherwise out of their league.

Like imagine a lynx or a coyote "miscalculating the threat" and charging at an animal - not one of its prey items and a predator, no less - that's easily twice or thrice its bulk like a lion or a rhinoceros.

How about a bear and a cat to put this away from just imagination? It's not the best example since the Bear runs off after it occurs, but if it came down to a stat to stat fight, a cat's smaller size is basically it's only advantage. It can't pierce through much of the bear's skin, and one solid strike from the bear would undoubtedly kill it. By all accounts, the only reason cats survive this situation is using fear as leverage, and that does work for the reasons you mentioned, but since Scorned is a much more aggressive creature than what we'd commonly see in nature, it took Zinogre up on the challenge and defeated it with ease.

Just like how a monster can believably threaten all of human civilization without necessarily being able to wipe the surface, being considered a massive threat does not inherently equate to having higher AP. Factors such as range, aggression, behavior and the like can make certain monsters more dangerous than others. Seregios, for example, was treated as super dangerous and out of one's league and all that, while its abilities remain on par with Rathalos/Azure Rathalos.

Yeah, by itself, but we also visibly see Deviljho, Magnamalo and Rajang utterly demolishing flying wyverns indiscriminately, so that coupled with how they're treated in general suggests that they are in fact way stronger.

 

[The_Axiom_of_Virgo]

At this point MH6 will be out before Velkhana gets a profile lol!

Thanks for keeping the discussion alive guys, I've been burnt out of a MH for awhile so I've been keeping my distance (Plus November in general being overloaded with major releases).

 

[Sigilavox]

That by itself shouldn't, nah

Cool, that's all I needed to hear. Though I'm responding down below I honestly have no real problems with this now

(Not that this is really a counterargument but the writing quality being poor does suggest they didn't really refer to notes on how strong monsters should be relative to each other, writing quality drops can very easily result in scaling going unhinged, see the sequel trilogy of Star Wars or Dragon Ball Super)

When I said shoddy, I was referring to the dialogue, predictable plot, and character development, not the overall quality. It was pretty shoddy as movies go, objectively speaking. For the series? Among the best in terms of stories told, straight-up. Not that the bar is very high, but the care and quality of the worldbuilding is very much in line with the best of the series, akin to 4U or World.

This is a bit confusing with how it's written. You're trying to emphasize that indeed, any monster is a threat, but two of three of what you said are things that are on the level of an Elder Dragon anyways, so it confuses the message of the gap being much smaller than what we currently portray it as

The Congalala, Nerscylla, Deviljho, and Lunastra were each treated as big challenges, and all required coordination to take down. The Lunastra was just the most dangerous of them (though not impossible by any means), with Deviljho being portrayed roughly as problematic to deal with as the Nerscylla. The hunters used their environment i.e. paralytic mushrooms, traps, positioning, kinsects, and teamwork(tm) to take each down, and every time a hunter had to deal with any one of them alone or without their equipment - the Nerscylla, Congalala, Deviljho, or Lunastra alike - the hunter was on the back foot. That's what I was talking about.

There is an internet worth of videos of Dogs, Cats, or any animal you can think of occasionally doing something either overtly stupid or wildly unlucky, and these outliers just do exist, even by and large you can expect them to have a stronger survival instinct than that. Again, these are two random cases of creatures getting in over their heads, not an indication they're genuinely strong enough to stand a chance against something that's otherwise out of their league.

None of the domestic dog/silly cat examples are pertinent to wild animals whose habits are developed based on survival in environments where human caretakers and human-habitated safe spaces are not present nor whose behaviors are bred and changed by said caretakers. However, I'll let the cat-bear example settle this discussion quite comfortably. That a Zinogre may be used to scaring off larger predators to protect its food source or whatnot is believable enough for me.

Yeah, by itself, but we also visibly see Deviljho, Magnamalo and Rajang utterly demolishing flying wyverns indiscriminately, so that coupled with how they're treated in general suggests that they are in fact way stronger.

Winning a turf war doesn't necessarily imply being that much stronger (a Rathalos who's hungry as Deviljho and just, like, three times as strong as a normal one could easily be treated as a "food chain-destroying threat" like Deviljho), but I see that this argument doesn't really gel with VSBattles' tier systems so eh.

 

[Sigilavox]

At this point MH6 will be out before Velkhana gets a profile lol!

Thanks for keeping the discussion alive guys, I've been burnt out of a MH for awhile so I've been keeping my distance (Plus November in general being overloaded with major releases).

Goddamn I gotta get on Velkhana's profile. I think someone did a sandbox seven pages ago or smth, would it be okay if I piggybacked that? Also don't worry about being like burned out or anything, totally understandable. We've had a lot of close releases in the past couple years relative to the series and lots of other stuff is concurrently happening anyways.

 

[The_Axiom_of_Virgo]

Goddamn I gotta get on Velkhana's profile. I think someone did a sandbox seven pages ago or smth, would it be okay if I piggybacked that? Also don't worry about being like burned out or anything, totally understandable. We've had a lot of close releases in the past couple years relative to the series and lots of other stuff is concurrently happening anyways.

Sure (since I was the one that made that "mock" profile lol) apologies in advance for the poor quality tho. I'll try to check in a bit more often when I can, currently taking a break from Sunbreak (I can't put my finger on it but hunting in that game doesn't satisfy me anymore like it did in GU, 4U and MHW/IB) but having a blast with GoW Ragnarok tho.

I'm just glad there are some people who have interest and more importantly fun with MH on the wiki.

 

[Sigilavox]

Here are some sandboxes that I've completed. Give them a once-over.

• Velkhana
• Gaismagorm
• Xeno'jiiva

 

[DMUA]

They really didn't get one shot by Velkhana, but you could list it as incapacitating them (Their MHS rating also may have use with how her forming an Ice wall outright blitzed the Huntsman, who the Admiral admits would beat them soundly in a fight)

I should totally take a crack at those craters too, I don't think they belong as a lifting strength justification but it would be nice to just have around

 

[Sigilavox]

They really didn't get one shot by Velkhana, but you could list it as incapacitating them (Their MHS rating also may have use with how her forming an Ice wall outright blitzed the Huntsman, who the Admiral admits would beat them soundly in a fight)

Makes sense. Also yeah, that cutscene really showcased how fast Velkhana was.

I should totally take a crack at those craters too, I don't think they belong as a lifting strength justification but it would be nice to just have around

Yeah, Gaismagorm is pretty nuts. The boulders it slings in the cutscene alone are far larger than Tetsu's, but the craters would just make it absurd. Yeah, it def seems more like an AP feat rather than LS.

 

[Sigilavox]

Magnamalo.

So, bringing up this CRT by @DMUA, what do we feel about speed scaling for Dalamadur (and higher)?

Dalamadur is listed as "Massively Hypersonic+ with Massively FTL+ attack and reaction speed" yet Fatalis and co are just "Massively FTL+". Should Fatty-level (and Velkhana, lel) monsters be set to the former category rather than the latter? Their only justification is "Should logically be faster".

 

[DMUA]

Admittedly, travel/combat speed splits aren't really something I pay heed to that much (arguably only Kirin should scale in that regard and everyone else besides Dalamadur should just have one rating) but if we were to be more accurate it would be MHS, MFTL+ combat speed

MFTL+ is still fine by itself because the default assumption is Combat Speed and that's ultimately what we use for battles like this, so take your pick

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Here are some sandboxes that I've completed. Give them a once-over.

• Velkhana
• Gaismagorm
• Xeno'jiiva

These look amazing. Also, I find it interesting in the Spacebattles thing you linked for Safi'jiiva's Intelligence that it was specifically noted that Raging Brachydios lure its opponents to an area that makes defeating them easier or something like that.

 

[Sigilavox]

If anyone wants to know how I'm formatting the renovated and added profiles, I made a blog post here hopefully explaining every part of it, including links to every tier for which we scale monsters. I'm planning to standardize the verse over time with its wording and level of quality.

 

[Sigilavox]

@DMUA did you calculate Tetsucabra to have Class 50 lifting strength here? If so, is that a CRT or could we just change all non-Dalamadur profiles to the new ls?

 

[DMUA]

Probably

Honestly I should get back into the swing of things and start making another CRT for the abilities and the stat changes the first one didn't cover, finish up whatever calcs I haven't done yet on the blog I wrote up and get someone to evaluate all that

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

@DMUA did you calculate Tetsucabra to have Class 50 lifting strength here? If so, is that a CRT or could we just change all non-Dalamadur profiles to the new ls?

What about the Tetranadon Calc right underneath it? That one's Class K.

 

[Sigilavox]

What about the Tetranadon Calc right underneath it? That one's Class K.

Damn, forgot about that. Looks like it'd be an upgrade, then. We at least have conclusive evidence that Goss scales above Tetranodon, given how it stalemates and then overpowers the latter in their turf war. Anjanath seems to struggle to move Tetranodon at first but also wins out in the end. This is probably enough to safely scale all apexes above Tetranodon in terms of raw muscular output, basically.

 

[Sigilavox]

As an aside, go watch Legends of the Guild if you haven't already and you're looking for a decently fun fifty minutes or so. Monster Hunter(TM) bad plot and cardboard characters excepted, it's got actually well-designed encounter sequences capped off with an incredible sequence with the Lunastra- in particular, many of the Lunastra's attacks are scarily accurate to what we see in-game, to the point where they actually use the in-game animations and blue/red fire particle effects we got in World for some parts. It's kind of wild that we get to see a full-length-ish video game movie with (Old World) cutscene graphics, honestly.

 

[DMUA]

I decided to take a crack at Dire Miralis' feat of "boiling the sea"

I'm not entirely sure if that's 100% literal but it does mention they kill all the wildlife there and "the" sea could easily just refer to the sea that the player character most well knows in that game so

The main issue is that outside the vague impression that Port Tanzia looks like somewhere in the Mediterranean, I have no idea what assumptions I'd use for an actual solid calc (and lowballing it greatly gets 5 Kilotons), so I figured I'd throw out the question here

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Yeah, I've got nothing. I don't know how to calc for shit.

 

[Sigilavox]

Title Update 3's trailer is out. Go watch it. If you want more info about it, there's also the expanded digital event video.

Spoiler

Holy fuuuu Risen Kush/Teo look so fun! Here's to hoping they do some interesting unique armor skills for them, the armor looks sick already. Also the ability to bring Followers on any quest is delightful. Can't wait to spice up custom quests with them.

 

[DMUA]

Fiorayne my beloved

 

[DMUA]

Anyways, related to my previous question

Meant to get this out a few days ago, but it's here now, at least

 

[DMUA]

I actually convinced my dad to buy me and the MHW gang Rise

I think world is better but I'm starting to get the hang of it's controls at least, and I noticed that there are pretty large rock formations that monsters/you via wyvern riding can shatter, so that could probably replace the Barroth feat (shouldn't be too hard to find online but screenshotting should be a valid option this go round)

 

[Sigilavox]

I actually convinced my dad to buy me and the MHW gang Rise

I think world is better but I'm starting to get the hang of it's controls at least, and I noticed that there are pretty large rock formations that monsters/you via wyvern riding can shatter, so that could probably replace the Barroth feat (shouldn't be too hard to find online but screenshotting should be a valid option this go round)

Oh holy hell you've been missing out. Rise (and especially Sunbreak) is super fun, I wish you the best on your new journey! As an aside, wyvern riding has that same feel in world where even a Kulu could break huge stone formations. Whether that's usable or not is up in the air.

 

[DMUA]

You can shatter them in one strike by just ramming them into it and they do live through that so it's probably viable

 

[Sigilavox]

You can shatter them in one strike by just ramming them into it and they do live through that so it's probably viable

On the other hand you can use like a Kulu Ya Ku or Great Wroggi to deal very significant damage to, knock down, and kill something as strong as a Furious Rajang or Seething Bazelgeuse or any elder dragon, so I’m pretty skeptical about how well in-game wyvern riding works as a feat rather than just a gameplay mechanic. The boulders are at least breakable in a few hits for non ridden monsters, I think…

 

[Sigilavox]

Kushala Daora's Snowstorm Dispersion Feat: Kushala Daora dispersed the storm via flapping its wings and would still scale to potency.

I think the Environmental Destruction page incorrectly presents Kushala's storm dispersion feat.

It says that the feat happens by flapping its wings, and that's... not what happens. It's not even implied. We don't see what the Kushala's physically doing when the storm disperses, and we don't see what it's doing when the initial gusts of wind start, though you could argue the little tornado and those gusts of wind might be directly from the physical force of its wing flaps when it starts to approach the hunter, maybe.

But the actual storm only kicks back up when it gets in its battle-ready stance. So, it's clearly not a physical wingflap. Therefore, since Kushala does its storm magic things seemingly by willpower rather than its physical movements, we should at least change the text. Maybe change the justification to be akin to the D&D storm spells, though there's no real reason to do that either given it's not some specifically leveled ability that should be equal in potency to another tiered ability.

Edit: Also, it seems that the storm only covers a certain section of the Frozen Seaway, and the rest of the sky is always pure blue, implying that it didn't even disperse the entire horizon's worth of storm. I mean, it's not a small amount of air, but maybe it's worth another look. In fact, even in the very same quest you can see the sky isn't fully covered in the storm. Kushala brings wind particle effects to any zone it visits, and it's not like Monster Hunter is a stranger to creating environmental effects in their maps what with having Yama flying around in the background of 2nd gen games, so this feels kind of intentional. Can anyone else who has MH4U confirm? I'll check sometime later on my copy of MH4U; I have yet to reach that hunt but iirc I'm not too far off from that point and I can access the Frozen Seaway anyways.

 

[DMUA]

It wouldn't make sense for Kushala to only use a fraction of it's overall ability to control the wind against a hunter genuinely trying to kill them, but yeah, the part where we don't really see it flap it's wings to do this does sorta apply (granted this is the only time we supposedly see their wind manipulation actually project a storm outwards like this, so maybe that's where the idea comes from)

Do remember these games were like, on the 3Ds, so they may have just took a compromise that they then went back on in World (Where an Elder Dragon being around noticeably causes an environmental effect specific to them, with Kushala in particular always bringing a storm along with them)