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Monster Hunter: World of "Bro what"

DMUA

He/Him
VS Battles
Calculation Group
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So, around December of last year, I was given a copy of Monster Hunter World. After spending a minor amount of time in it, I looked at the profiles, and...

I'll likely make an ability CRT another time. This is just going to cover the madhouse that is AP and Speed, in terms of the scaling and even some of the feats actually used to justify the ratings.

Regular Wyverns​

A lot of monsters in High 8-C, while I am fine with the rating (Not a lot of stuff should be weaker than a Barroth, for example), I have a bit of an issue with how much Lagiacrus' feat is thrown around in that tree.

Like, for example, Barroth has this used to justify the fact they can take on a Rathian and defeat it... But, this is pure gameplay. It's not a cutscene, it's not a turfwar, it's not any real statement, it's an interaction between creatures not really balanced to fight eachother in a gameplay section. And, normally I wouldn't be so staunch on that, except this is contradicted in the exact mission where you hunt a Barroth, where you explicitly need to sneak past the Rathian without any conflict, but a Barroth is considered a completely viable fight. Not to even mention the fact you fight a Rathalos and Diablos back to back much later, the latter of which outright one-shots Barroth

And overall, there are a lot of instances where they say "should be comparible" to Rathalos or whathave you despite them being an Apex Monster. I get we don't necessarily see creatures getting into fights with eachother outside of World and Rise's Turf War system (which I'm going to be referencing a lot, thank you for that addition Capcom), but the baseline should be a Barroth, not the type of creatures that one-shot it, unless they have a solid reason to scale that high up.

Elder Dragons​

I think the best place to start here is with the supposed lowest part of the totem pole, Kirin.

Island level (Should be comparable to Elder Dragon-level monsters like Deviljho and other Minor Elder Dragons, but possibly weaker than other EDs due to sometimes being considered the weakest Elder Dragon, was able to destroy an entire village with a powerful thunderstorm)

This seems normal enough, but...

Here's an actual cutscene of a Kirin fighting an "Elder Dragon level monster", as they're called in this description

This is the definition of a curbstomp. Kirin attempts to impale Rajang with his horn, which seems to wound them, but it turns out they avoided it last second, and proceed
completely unimpeded to rip their horn off, the Kirin barely able to do so much as escape their grip in the process, and the Kirin's last ditch lightning attack of course does absolutely nothing. Granted, that last part is easily explained by the Rajang being incredibly resistant to lighting damage, but it still tells a pretty clear story. Couple that with the fact that Kirin is the only Elder Dragon you can fight in Low Rank, and it suggests they're nowhere near the level of Kushala (who can actually deal damage to Rajang, even if they are overwhelmed in a matchup of physical strength),

Granted, the separation between Low and High ranks are mostly game mechanics. After all, in 4U (which I've been playing recently on account of doing everything non-grindy that there is to do in World), you don't find a Kirin at all, and instead face off against Gore and Shagaru Magala, and they're 6-C because...

Island level (Has feats that makes it comparable to the Elder Dragons like Kushala Daora and Deviljho)

Because it seems legit, I guess?

Now, they do have some stuff that could suggest that level of power (they show up immediately after clear blue skies turn to a fierce storm suddenly while you're sailing in 4U, and they do have an ability to cloak the area in darkness, so you could argue this is their doing), but in terms of scaling, they just... Don't fight anything on that level, no.

In fact, in Sunbreak, here's them overpowering, but ultimately being damaged and knocked back by a High 8-C+ monster, and after you beat Gore Magala in 4U, you proceed onwards to fighting Rathalos and Zinogre, who are also in that ballpark.

Moving up, there's the High 6-A Elder Dragons, which are also equally as flimsy.

Zorah Magdaros' 6-B rating is fine... Kinda. It would explicitly kill them as a result of releasing all their bio energy at once, but they are old to the point that they're doing that as their last hurrah before dying , and even weakening them with the Magmacores doesn't really stop them so it's (probably) fine to leave alone, but for the High 6-A ratings...

likely Multi-Continent level (Superior to two Dalamadurs due to having superior bio-energy)
Where is this stated?

At best, this seems like an extrapolation from the fact there are two Dalamadur corpses in the rotten vale, but... How does that relate to the level of bio-energy Zorah has? The Dalamadurs simply didn't resist Xeno'Jiiva's influence, while, on it's last legs, Zorah decided to spite them directly by completely blowing their territory to kingdom come before they die off. Maybe there's a guidebook statement I'm not aware of, and it's not like I haven't been surprised by guidebook data before (Xeno'Jiiva not actually having eyes for instance, and instead those being energy sensing organs), but there still should be some type of link on where that came from.

... Then again, it probably doesn't matter because the Dalamadur's High 6-A rating is questionable inofitself.

Multi-Continent level (Its strikes are capable of affecting the entire world. Shouldn't too far below Shah version)
More specifically, the in-game description this is pulled from.

A huge elder dragon, massive beyond human comprehension. The only mention of its existence is found in fairy tales, which claim it can warp the very surface of the world and level mountains with a single twitch.
If you read that closely, you'll realize that the citation for the feat is legitimately just a fairy tale, and the writers of this excerpt didn't even know the thing existed to begin with until they showed up on their doorstep, and the Shah quote of "Capable of shaking the world in fire" sounds like it's on the same beat.

A big theme in Monster Hunter, at least from what I've seen, is that these Monsters are very old, very mysterious creatures. You hear stories passed down generation to generation in relation to these things, and sometimes, the characters outright tell you they just don't know anything, or only know stuff from these old stories. Xeno'Jiiva and Shara Ishvalda for example were straight up complete mysteries, outside of the former maybe being the dragon referenced in the tale of the five or at least somewhat related, and the latter being "The Old Everwyrm" with the power to destroy ecosystems with a song of madness. There's the same deal with Shagaru Magala in 4U, where all they know is a great calamity in the far gone past and the legend about heaven's wheel.

Of course, that's a lot of fancy talk about narratives, and while I'd love to do that, this is a CRT, so I'll cut to the chase and say that the narrator of this feat isn't reliable, and, considering the Dalamadur does way more than just twitching to kill you, and the world, and even the very mountain you fight them on, is entirely fine... Yeah, that's probably not a reliable statement to their power, but instead a story told about how terrifying the 440 meter long snake that can call meteors is.

Black Dragons​

The technical term is supposedly "Dangerous First-class monsters" but this is cooler so

Originally, this section was me looking at Fatalis' page and thinking "does he really scale to two variants up the totem pole when a variant can outright one-shot their own kind as in the case of Ebony Odogaron fighting regular Odogaron, should that really scale to every single Black Dragon when Alaetron is much easier to survive than normal Fatalis..."

But then I looked at the feat itself for a bit, and, not to sound like someone debating One Punch Man, but...

Are we even sure this is the moon?

Sure, initially that sounds strange, but consider the context. After the sun is completely concealed, it turns into something more akin to a black hole emitting a massive, swirling blue storm, and White Fatalis' while deal is calling down lighting upon their enemies, which is closely related to generating massive, dark clouds which just so happen to block out the sun. With that in consideration, what's more likely? The sun simply interacting weirdly with the supernatural ability to call a storm taken to it's extreme, or White Fatalis inexplicably having the ability to destroy the planet several times over with telekinetic power that can reach for thousands of kilometers (that he also never uses outside of this)

Maybe people will go for the latter, but do also consider the consistency element. While Black Dragons are generally regarded as threats to the world, that's mostly on account of them demonstrating the ability to wipe out countries or oceans with ease, drastically changing the ecosystem. Fatalis' introduction in World talks about how Elder Dragons are disappearing and weather anomalies are being caused by Fatalis' activities, along with the fact that legend says they burnt Schrade to the ground in a single night. There's also Dire Miralis, who supposedly boiled an ocean (not necessarily vaporized, mind you, as you end up fighting them in the so called "Tainted sea")

Oh lord I haven't even brought up speed yet​

Yeah that's another wack thing

Supersonic, I don't have a problem with, it's mostly Massively Hypersonic+ and FTL+, for two different reasons.

Starting with MHS+... I'd love to post an excerpt of a faulty justification, but I genuinely can't find the feat cited for this. Click on any page, it's 100% circular scaling from being comparable to other monsters.

My best guess on what it's supposed to be is the fact Kirin and other monsters on that level can use lightning, and they can keep up with stuff that dodges that, but... That doesn't really occur?

Even Rajang, who outright stomps Kirin, never actually dodges lightning or move relative to it. In their turf war, all the bolts just miss, and in the ecology cutscene, Rajang wasn't able to react whatsoever and just tanked it.

Granted, it may be the fact The Hunter can dodge these attacks, but, there are a few hiccups with that as well. You can dismiss the fact you don't really dodge the lightning but pay attention to glowy sections on the ground, but... The lightning comes from the sky, well above any hunters, and they'd have far more distance to react to a bolt of lightning than what MHS+ would apply. Not to mention the fact it's hitscan, so the best you can argue is that they'd be able to logically react to it, which is at the absolute best, Hypersonic+, but more likely is just Supersonic inofitself.

FTL+, I actually think is incredibly lowballed. Valtrax scaling to it is iffy, since the "fastest monster" statement (if that even exists, also) is likely referring to his jet thrusters, which only really are at full capacity when they start flying (and that'd apply to his dive bomb attack, but the Hunter reacting to it runs into a similar problem as the Kirin lighting scaling)

But, in terms of the calc itself, it assumes that the meteors come from the sun, but... the sun doesn't have any solid metal in it, nor would it generate any in it's entire lifespan. Assuming it's literal (Which it may not be, but the description doesn't say it's from any particular legend or "it is said", just directly that it's a piece of a star), it would have had to come from outside the solar system. Not only that, but this is something you can genuinely perceive and dodge out of the way of, so here's an MFTL+ calc.

Conclusion​

Less monsters should scale to Apex monsters like Rathalos, but this doesn't really change their AP, just specific values. Kirin should be Low 7-B for generating a storm around it, and Gore Magala should be rated similarly (If not lower, since their storm feat is a bit iffy and they are fought alongside apex monsters), High 6-A and 5-A should be removed in favor of just 6-B, while MHS+ should be downgraded to Supersonic, and FTL+ should be MFTL+
 
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Barroth Stuff: Yeah I have no idea how that got in there. Rathian is very explicitly above Barroth considerably. Barroth might be able to survive a brief fight with Rathian, but downscaling is a no-no.

Kirin: I don't think Rajang is really a fair comparison lmao. As you point out, Rajang considerably ***** up Kushala, who is generally above Kirin to an unknown degree.

I don't know anything about 4U, but I'd really like to ask if you're sure they never fight anything of that level. Coz that's a bold claim to make from a couple games of experience, there's a fuckload of these things about.

Zorah: Yeah I'm iffy on that. I suppose you might argue that the bio-energy of the Dalamadurs was 100% transferred but... yeah. Flimsy. I'm not sure I'd even list that as a "possibly" rating. I'm fine with nyxing High 6-A, though someone recently posted a calc for 6-A (not on board with that calc, mind, but it was made).

Fatalis: I think the moon is the most reasonable assumption, even in spite of the weird visuals, yeah.

MHS: Wasn't MHS due to some older game having Kirin travel as lightning? Shiro brought that up in eons past, I think. I obviously can't confirm as I only play World.

FTL: Alright. I don't really feel strongly one way or the other, I think the FTL assumptions were reasonable enough but I get why you'd want a different version. Maybe "At least FTL+, likely MFTL+" or smth.

In short, I disagree with Low 7-B Kirin and Fatalis, I agree with lowering Barroth's specific value (and non-Apex monsters alongside him) and FTL+ being upgraded to MFTL+. I'm neutral towards the Dalamadur stuff, the 4U Elder Dragon *****, and MHS.
 
I don't think Rajang is really a fair comparison lmao. As you point out, Rajang considerably ***** up Kushala, who is generally above Kirin to an unknown degree.
Not particularly, though. Kushala's charge is actually shown to deal damage numbers, and they do manage to kick Rajang off after they get slammed, while Kirin is just left splayed out and mutilated by the time Rajang's done with them. Other Elder Dragons do also manage to at least struggle against Rajang (Namely Vaal Hazak, Teostra and Lunastra, who outright wrestle with them until they enrage and flip them over)
I don't know anything about 4U, but I'd really like to ask if you're sure they never fight anything of that level. Coz that's a bold claim to make from a couple games of experience, there's a fuckload of these things about.
Gore Magala is introduced as 4U's Flagship, and I know Generations features them, but they have a ton of monsters that are just there for the Smash Bros Ultimate appeal more than actual plot relevance

Sunbreak does actually show them with the turf war against Seregios, but that's straight up it, so that's ultimately the most reliable thing to scale them from.
though someone recently posted a calc for 6-A (not on board with that calc, mind, but it was made).
Well, if it's a calc actually based on a solid feat, yeah
Fatalis: I think the moon is the most reasonable assumption, even in spite of the weird visuals, yeah.
Their powers still are storms more than telekinesis, but there's not much information to contest on this, so is what it is
Wasn't MHS due to some older game having Kirin travel as lightning? Shiro brought that up in eons past, I think. I obviously can't confirm as I only play World.
If it is a thing, it's not listed on the profiles (And that seems a bit... strange, with how Monster Hunter is? Feels more like it would be flowery language than a literal statement of Kirin transmuting themselves into lightning and moving around, and you do see monsters attempt to run away from you, so if it's a thing it'd probably be explicitly shown there)
 
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Not particularly, though. Kushala's charge is actually shown to deal damage numbers, and they do manage to kick Rajang off and backstep a bit after they get slammed, while Kirin is just left splayed out and mutilated by the time Rajang's done with them. Other Elder Dragons do also manage to at least struggle against Rajang (Namely Vaal Hazak, Teostra and Lunastra, who outright wrestle with them until they enrage and flip them over)
Yeah, but we both seem to agree Kushala is above Kirin, just not incomparably so. Like I said, I don't think trying to compare to Rajang of all things is really too fair.

Gore Magala is introduced as 4U's Flagship, and I know Generations features them, but they have a ton of monsters that are just there for the Smash Bros Ultimate appeal more than actual plot relevance

Sunbreak does actually show them with the turf war against Seregios, but that's straight up it, so that's ultimately the most reliable thing to scale them from.
If the games show them fighting Elder Dragon tier enemies then so be it, man, it's as simple as that.

Well, if it's a calc actually based on a solid feat, yeah
It's a recalc of Zorah's feat treating it as melting rather than exploding, and including the newer bit of the New World since Iceborne wasn't out when the last thing was done.
If it is a thing, it's not listed on the profiles (And that seems a bit... strange, with how Monster Hunter is? Feels more like it would be flowery language than a literal statement of Kirin transmuting themselves into lightning and moving around, and you do see monsters attempt to run away from you, so if it's a thing it'd probably be explicitly shown there)
Yeah like I said, I can't confirm, that's just what I remember being the justification from back in the day. I'm just a World scrub, I had to kinda shrug at a lot of the things brought forward.
 
I don't know anything about 4U, but I'd really like to ask if you're sure they never fight anything of that level. Coz that's a bold claim to make from a couple games of experience, there's a fuckload of these things about.
At the time you fight both Gore and Shagaru, no Elder Dragons have entered the story, so what Shagaru and Gore canonically face is a hunter whose most noteworthy achievements are defeating a Zinogre, a Rathalos, a Diablos GRAVIOS, and an amped-up (Frenzied) Tigrex perhaps, but that's about it. No canon appearance of Gore or Shagaru depict or state them to be equal to or fighting another Elder Dragon tier monster in 4 Ultimate or Generations (Ultimate).

Come Sunbreak, Gore has only canonically fought Tigrex and Goss Harag (both of which it caught off guard), as well as a turf war with Seregios in which it has the upper hand before getting thrown off and knocked over. Shagaru curbstomps Seregios and Barioth in a cutscene, and that's it for actual encounters with other monsters.

Well, if it's a calc actually based on a solid feat, yeah
Maker of said 6-A calc. I'm in the process of re-evaluating it, due to concerns raised by Mr. Bambu, and the result might not resemble the current one when it is done. For this thread, feel free to ignore it.
 
Yeah, but we both seem to agree Kushala is above Kirin, just not incomparably so. Like I said, I don't think trying to compare to Rajang of all things is really too fair.
It is the one in universe thing we can compare, and there is a clear disparity between a Kirin fighting a Rajang and other Elder Dragons doing so.
If the games show them fighting Elder Dragon tier enemies then so be it, man, it's as simple as that.
Seregios is more Rathalos' level, so... Obviously, Shagaru would be much more powerful as an Elder Dragon (And they do pretty explicitly generate a storm when you fight them) but that's another deal than Gore, who's described as more their juvenile state.
It's a recalc of Zorah's feat treating it as melting rather than exploding, and including the newer bit of the New World since Iceborne wasn't out when the last thing was done.
The Hoarfrost reach is an island a bit off the coast, though. Sure, it's within sailing range, but I wouldn't really consider it as a piece of the new world at large (And outside of Zorah generally being magma based, I don't think there's anything to imply that the new world would turn molten, I definitely remember references to it happening being just "Destroyed" as opposed to anything specific)
 
It is the one in universe thing we can compare, and there is a clear disparity between a Kirin fighting a Rajang and other Elder Dragons doing so.
Agree to disagree, I guess? I strongly disagree with downgrading based on getting beat up by a monster that it would get beat up by at its current tier.

Seregios is more Rathalos' level, so... Obviously, Shagaru would be much more powerful as an Elder Dragon (And they do pretty explicitly generate a storm when you fight them) but that's another deal than Gore, who's described as more their juvenile state.
Aye, I was referring to the Smash-esque thing you mentioned prior, I had thought the implication was that they did, in fact, fight Elder Dragon-level guys in there?

The Hoarfrost reach is an island a bit off the coast, though. Sure, it's within sailing range, but I wouldn't really consider it as a piece of the new world at large (And outside of Zorah generally being magma based, I don't think there's anything to imply that the new world would turn molten, I definitely remember references to it happening being just "Destroyed" as opposed to anything specific)
Not my calc, but tbf it is part of the same continent. I personally wouldn't include it but there is an argument to be made.
 
Agree to disagree, I guess? I strongly disagree with downgrading based on getting beat up by a monster that it would get beat up by at its current tier.
There's a difference between "getting beat up" and "getting completely overpowered and having one of your limbs (which isn't really what a horn is but it's most comparable) torn off before getting your face planted into the ground". It's a bit more of a gap than just, being lower in the same tier.
Aye, I was referring to the Smash-esque thing you mentioned prior, I had thought the implication was that they did, in fact, fight Elder Dragon-level guys in there?
When I said that, I more meant they just show up to show up, and don't really do anything particularly notable besides fight you. As far as I know, this is the only cutscene Gore Magala has in that game
 
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Ok before I make my points, I'll like to preface the fact that until recently MH has been quite an inactive verse and thus many profiles have suffered as a result via becoming outdated and/or having questionable scaling (like part of Barroth's AP jurisdiction coming from random gameplay that isn't even a turf war) however with this CRT as well other ones (both current and planned for the future) on the top of the MH discussion thread becoming more lively as of late, the verse is gradually being updated and I also appreciate @DMUA has taken interest in updating the verse.

Now then:

*I agree the scaling for mid to low tier large monsters is a wonky for reference there's a bunch of 9-A/8-C feats plus others that might need be calced in the future, regardless if Barroth tier or lower monsters become 8-C/9-A in the future I don't mind (personally I'm fine 8-C if High 8-C is no good anymore) we just need better jurisdiction that's all.


*Elder Dragons and ED tier monsters has always been a sore subject tbh but I agree that Kirin is at the bottom of totem pole (iirc it's never been officially stated to be weakest among the EDs but the evidence in lore as well as in the cutscenes do support this notion). I believe theres 7-A feat for Kirin creating a storm in the Coral Highlands (I think it's somewhere in the discussion thread) but it's technically during gameplay (albeit it's something all EDs do both in and out of combat) so may not be viable either way. If Kirin does becomes tier 7 I wouldn't mind plus the whole situation with Gore Magala/enchanced monster scaling would probably be solved too (since it's a juvenile ED and still susceptible to being captured by hunters).

*As for Zorah I've got very little to add until @Sigilavox (who played a major role in reviving MH discussion here) calc is re-evaluated and approved.

*For Fatalis, I agree with @Mr._Bambu that it probably is the moon that White Fatalis is moving and if it provides any supporting context but it's stated in MHW dialogue that a battle between Safi'jiiva and Alatreon would be on a continental scale perhaps even on a planetary/global scale.

I'll talk about speed later but yeah I agree the supersonic+ stuff (jester owl sonic beams and cinematic fight between Rathalos Vs Astalos) is solid at least.
 
I agree the scaling for mid to low tier large monsters is a wonky for reference there's a bunch of 9-A/8-C feats plus others that might need be calced in the future, regardless if Barroth tier or lower monsters become 8-C/9-A in the future I don't mind (personally I'm fine 8-C if High 8-C is no good anymore) we just need better jurisdiction that's all.
As I said in the original post, Barroth should still be High 8-C from its own feats (as well as any basic monsters like them), I just don't think they should scale to Lagraicrus
I believe theres 7-A feat for Kirin creating a storm in the Coral Highlands (I think it's somewhere in the discussion thread) but it's technically during gameplay (albeit it's something all EDs do both in and out of combat) so may not be viable either way.
It is better to link stuff when you want to reference it, but the Kirin making a storm is just something they do by being around. Elder Dragons in general are described as living forces of nature at one point (though I can't really remember where I heard that), so it's not really farfetched that they'd alter the weather.

it's stated in MHW dialogue that a battle between Safi'jiiva and Alatreon would be on a continental scale perhaps even on a planetary/global scale.
That's definitely not what's stated. They have plenty of statements about potentially destroying or threatening the world at large, but oblitherating countries one by one would still get that same result (or in the case of Xeno'Jiiva and Safi'jiva, the main reason they were dangerous was their advanced control of bioenergy allowing them to do essentially whatever they want with a given environment), and they don't ever mention explicitly that it would be in a single strike.
 
Monster Hunter stuff is scaled using monster materials here. While I don't agree with this practice, this is the basis upon which Dalamadur has world-shaking prowess:
"The shell of a lash-like tail that shakes heaven and the human world alike."
From the Dalam Tail Shell description.

According to the wiki's common feats page, shaking the earth has been calculated at 1 Teraton, or Low 6-B.

Incidentally, I've redone Zorah's New World calculation with @Mr._Bambu's advice and it comes out at just above the baseline for 6-A. Though it awaits evaluation, I thought I'd bring it up, considering it's relevant to Zorah and Xeno, and perhaps anything stronger such as Fatalis and Safi'jiiva (and maybe Alatreon?), though probably not given the current consensus.

I think Kirin's tier can be calculated using the Coral Highland's horizon as the storm radius (or diameter, idk).
 
Hey, while we're here, can we fix Raging Brachydios' Stats? We outright acknowledge that he's stronger than normal Brachydios but we don't even give him an At Least Large Building+ Rating as a bare minimum even though he's treated as a Deviljho level threat.
 
Monster Hunter stuff is scaled using monster materials here. While I don't agree with this practice, this is the basis upon which Dalamadur has world-shaking prowess:
From the Dalam Tail Shell description.
This definitely feels more like hyperbole (in the same sense as all the "take over/destroy the world" stuff from rare drops in World) but it's not inconsistent with the Zorah feat so is what it is

Replied to the Zorah calc, also

Hey, while we're here, can we fix Raging Brachydios' Stats? We outright acknowledge that he's stronger than normal Brachydios but we don't even give him an At Least Large Building+ Rating as a bare minimum even though he's treated as a Deviljho level threat.
Where is that stated, though?
 
Where is that stated, though?
It's not really stated anywhere, but there are several 'soft' implications:
  • In every appearance of Raging Brachydios in the games since its introduction 4 Ultimate, its quests have consistently given more money and HR points than both Furious Rajang and Savage Deviljho's (1510 HRP versus 1440 HRP for the latter two). There has never been a quest in which a less powerful monster grants more HRP than another at population parity.
  • Raging is given a unique volcanic arena map in 4 called Ingle Isle, which was only used for Akantor and Crimson Fatalis.
  • Raging Brachydios was released in a special title update alongside Furious Rajang in Iceborne, and was given a far better showing than the latter, with a unique theme, an arena-creating mechanic, being noted to be particularly dangerous and unsettling by in-universe NPCs, and being the sole member of the entire Guiding Lands for its own special quest, whereas Furious was kind of... there, wandering around in a regular map and with no special theme, unique mechanics, or anything like that.
 
As I said in the original post, Barroth should still be High 8-C from its own feats (as well as any basic monsters like them), I just don't think they should scale to Lagraicrus.
Agreed, I honestly thought that was already the case tbh. Then clear jurisdictions (backed by in-game lore) that distinguishes high tier monsters (e.g Raths, Lagi, The Blos, etc) from mid tiers (E.g Barroth, Khezu, Tetsu, etc) needs to be set so the High 8-C+ and High 8-C scaling is accurate while not being circular.

It is better to link stuff when you want to reference it, but the Kirin making a storm is just something they do by being around. Elder Dragons in general are described as living forces of nature at one point (though I can't really remember where I heard that), so it's not really farfetched that they'd alter the weather.
Well I actually spent more time than I'll like to admit trying to find the 7-A Kirin calc (it's real I swear) but I got buried in a mountain of old posts. The calc was done by Gimmy iirc (who similar to Shiro isn't active anymore unfortunately) but I know I wasn't the only one to see that blog, so if anyone remembers it please link it to this CRT. There are a few weather related feats that were brought up in the discussion thread that need to be calced tho.
That's definitely not what's stated. They have plenty of statements about potentially destroying or threatening the world at large, but oblitherating countries one by one would still get that same result (or in the case of Xeno'Jiiva and Safi'jiva, the main reason they were dangerous was their advanced control of bioenergy allowing them to do essentially whatever they want with a given environment), and they don't ever mention explicitly that it would be in a single strike.
I never ment it as a tier 5 one-shot statement, simply as supporting evidence. White Fatalis moves the moon (Feat) and Black Dragons/DFCMs are stated threaten to wipe out entire civilizations (support).


As for speed I agree the circular scaling to Kirin and The Hunter is off. There's probably a few speed feats that need to be calced like this perhaps? Now the MFTL+ meteors I honestly don't have an opinion on it tbh since it's so above everything else in the verse but it's something two monsters are capable of and The Hunter can react to it. At least for supporting references a Kush relative is baseline SoL and the Jiiva's (seemly) have lazer shenanigans (skip to 2:34) but overall I'm neutral on the matter.
 
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  • In every appearance of Raging Brachydios in the games since its introduction 4 Ultimate, its quests have consistently given more money and HR points than both Furious Rajang and Savage Deviljho's (1510 HRP versus 1440 HRP for the latter two). There has never been a quest in which a less powerful monster grants more HRP than another at population parity.
  • Raging is given a unique volcanic arena map in 4 called Ingle Isle, which was only used for Akantor and Crimson Fatalis.
  • Raging Brachydios was released in a special title update alongside Furious Rajang in Iceborne, and was given a far better showing than the latter, with a unique theme, an arena-creating mechanic, being noted to be particularly dangerous and unsettling by in-universe NPCs, and being the sole member of the entire Guiding Lands for its own special quest, whereas Furious was kind of... there, wandering around in a regular map and with no special theme, unique mechanics, or anything like that.
On the other hand, the Raging Brachydios seen in Iceborne is utterly massive compared to the ones in the old world (And the guiding lands materials do mention that all the monsters there are particularly battle hardened from the never ending violence that permeates it), so...

Are we really sure that there aren't any instances of monsters that should be weaker but give more points? At the very least, is it fought sequentially with monsters that strong outside of Iceborne?
I never ment it as a tier 5 one-shot statement, simply as supporting evidence. White Fatalis moves the moon (Feat) and Black Dragons/DFCMs are stated threaten to wipe out entire civilizations (support).
Wiping out civilizations is more supportive of Tier 6, rather than Tier 5, which is more "blowing up the civilization and sending the continental crust it's on violently jettisoning into space far past GBE". The more I think about it in relation to the stuff you're bringing up, the idea that White Fatalis just has the moon moved in front of the sun before making a storm over it just seems outlandish given the context and scale of Monster Hunter at large.
 
Wiping out civilizations is more supportive of Tier 6, rather than Tier 5, which is more "blowing up the civilization and sending the continental crust it's on violently jettisoning into space far past GBE". The more I think about it in relation to the stuff you're bringing up, the idea that White Fatalis just has the moon moved in front of the sun before making a storm over it just seems outlandish given the context and scale of Monster Hunter at large.
Bro it's literally the Strongest Monster in the entire verse, we literally watch it move the Moon On-Screen and for the record telekinesis is literally on Fatalis' Profile already so it's not like it'd be something it suddenly pulled out of it's ass.
 
Are we really sure that there aren't any instances of monsters that should be weaker but give more points? At the very least, is it fought sequentially with monsters that strong outside of Iceborne?
The Generations Ultimate Raging is first fought in G4 Hub, at the same time you unlock G-Rank Furious Rajang and Savage Deviljho, and identical in rank to Kushala Daora, etc. Also, Iceborne's Raging Brachy is 22.82 meters long, while in previous generations it was 21.31 meters long. The difference isn't that big.

Edit: I personally don't believe White Fatalis personally moves the moon, and if it did, it shouldn't really count for its attack potency, because simply as a cutscene it far more screams "otherworldly, spooky stage-setting material" than "this monster can use telekinesis to hit you with the same energy it pushed the moon". Like, a person who can magically cause an eclipse to happen can't necessarily punch someone that hard, right? In this case, it can be explained by it making a dark vortex in front of the sun.
 
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Bro it's literally the Strongest Monster in the entire verse, we literally watch it move the Moon On-Screen and for the record telekinesis is literally on Fatalis' Profile already so it's not like it'd be something it suddenly pulled out of it's ass.
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And said Telekinesis from Crimson Fatalis is just pulling down meteors, which is much smaller scale (And directly calling it to attack someone, as opposed to just shoving it to the side to be more cinematic)

I already addressed it in the OP, that outside of looking vaguely like an eclipse, there's no true confirmation it's the moon, and while that is reasonable to assume normally, the storm that appears immediately afterwards does provide a good reason to call that into question. Not to mention, in spite of it being the strongest monster, we're still scaling it to every other Black Dragon (questionable as that is inofitself, as I briefly mentioned)
The Generations Ultimate Raging is first fought in G4 Hub, at the same time you unlock G-Rank Furious Rajang and Savage Deviljho, and identical in rank to Kushala Daora, etc. Also, Iceborne's Raging Brachy is 22.82 meters long, while in previous generations it was 21.31 meters long. The difference isn't that big.
I guess I misremembered something. Yeah, probably fine to rate them as comparable to Furious Rajang, then.
 
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After talking with a guy on Discord, who referenced this as proof of a statement where Kirins apparently are capable of moving as/like lightning, and realizing... That's exactly what happens in Iceborne (the hornless Kirin in Sterling pride traveled all the way from the guiding lands to the Hoarfrost reach, presumably escaping the Rajang after they took a bite out of their horn, and the Kirin we see get attacked by Rajang outright disappears when the final lightning bolt hits them, implying they just left the same way the first one did)

So MHS+ is actually solidified now, even if the justifications do need alteration accordingly
 
After talking with a guy on Discord, who referenced this as proof of a statement where Kirins apparently are capable of moving as/like lightning, and realizing... That's exactly what happens in Iceborne (the hornless Kirin in Sterling pride traveled all the way from the guiding lands to the Hoarfrost reach, presumably escaping the Rajang after they took a bite out of their horn, and the Kirin we see get attacked by Rajang outright disappears when the final lightning bolt hits them, implying they just left the same way the first one did)

So MHS+ is actually solidified now, even if the justifications do need alteration accordingly
Interesting. Only issue I'd have with that is that it's a kinship attack, which is only available to Hunter + Rider pairs, not necessarily to wild monsters.
 
The Iceborne part is what really sold me on it, the kinship attack doesn't necessarily show it (It's not like they just lightning'd to the top of a rock just to come down and charge horn first), but it does suggest that it may be somewhat applicable to combat (And honestly, it is a bit out there to assume that the hunter can always keep track of all the lightning bolts the moment they start coming down from the sky, so there is them dodging the lightning bolts to begin with)
 
I mean, we do visibly see the meteor drop from the sky, and saying the meteors are a piece of... a meteor, doesn't exactly make that much sense.

Unless you're referring to Crimson Fatalis, and we do visibly see said meteors drop there as well, there isn't really a statement on the topic.
 
I mean, we do visibly see the meteor drop from the sky, and saying the meteors are a piece of... a meteor, doesn't exactly make that much sense.

Unless you're referring to Crimson Fatalis, and we do visibly see said meteors drop there as well, there isn't really a statement on the topic.
No, I mean that the statement could mean that it come from a piece of another planet instead of an actual star since planet is the another most common use of the word hoshi, it would at least be a safest assumption compared to assume that it come from a supernova outside the solar system.
 
Well, let's take a look at it

A giant, flaming ball (somewhat glowing blue) suddenly crashes into the ground and explodes in a flash of light

It just strikes me as a piece of a star by context more than a chunk of metal pulled off from a nearby planet, and the franchise by and large does have solid translations. At the very least, nothing sticks out to me to the point I'd figure getting the japanese raw and working from there is better.
 
Well, let's take a look at it

A giant, flaming ball (somewhat glowing blue) suddenly crashes into the ground and explodes in a flash of light

It just strikes me as a piece of a star by context more than a chunk of metal pulled off from a nearby planet, and the franchise by and large does have solid translations. At the very least, nothing sticks out to me to the point I'd figure getting the japanese raw and working from there is better.
Normal meteors are show all the time in fiction like flaming balls do to burn when entering the atmosphere, so that don't really mean that is part of a star.

I mentioned the metal part because the argument was that supernovas are stars that produce metal. I mean, technically speaking is a valid translation since the word can be translated that way (is the most literal translation), so maybe say it was a translation mistake isn't the most correct thing, though even if is a valid translation in this type of cases from what I know normally is needed more things to support high end interpretations (is similar to the sekai case) like that in this case mean that come from a star (a supernova more specifically). Though if others believe that it should be taken as star then I guess is fine.

As a note I'm not against people scaling to numbers so high, is just that I geniunely belive that with how japanese work this type of thing are valid concern.
 
I guess if one really wanted to

Seems kind of strange but if the guidebook is legit it is what it is

Edit: as of writing that I immediately remembered that Iceborne pretty blatantly contradicts it, given that Rajang and Raging Brachydios both have green scoutflies by default and we do explicitly see the Rajang fighting and overpowering Elder Dragons in their turf wars, even if Raging Brachydios doesn't have such a direct showing
 
I guess if one really wanted to

Seems kind of strange but if the guidebook is legit it is what it is

Edit: as of writing that I immediately remembered that Iceborne pretty blatantly contradicts it, given that Rajang and Raging Brachydios both have green scoutflies by default and we do explicitly see the Rajang fighting and overpowering Elder Dragons in their turf wars, even if Raging Brachydios doesn't have such a direct showing
Yeah, also Savage (and normal) Deviljho and the Bazelgeuses cause scoutflies to come up green as well. I'm honestly not super sure about it myself.
 
Unless you're referring to Crimson Fatalis, and we do visibly see said meteors drop there as well, there isn't really a statement on the topic.
I'll find the source later, but I remember Crimson Fatalis being stated from an out-of-game source (either an event or a book or something) to actually trigger the nearby volcano for its "meteors", not actually call them down from space.
 
That honestly makes way more sense given his schtick generally revolves around volcanic activity

Probably also just means it's a subset of magma manipulation but as I stated in the OP, the ability sections on these pages are an entirely different can of worms
 
Dalamadur's meteors are wreathed in the same kind of blue energy it uses in its breath, which apparently is also used to call them down (somehow). Even disregarding the fact that meteors tend to be aflame by dint of entering the atmosphere, I see no particular reason why its meteors should come from the sun, or any star, given the original text.

Also, if we're using materials descriptions for our profiles (i.e. Space-Time Alatreon), doesn't that mean Star level Dalamadur should also be in consideration?
 
Alaetron's text is exactly what I'd want to avoid, given it says "it is rumored" and never see it's wings actually cut apart space time (the only thing resembling a spacial distortion is the dragon explosions they do when transforming and periodically while in dragon mode)

The main reason I'm okay with the Dalamadur feat is because it just directly says they're from a star instead of "it is rumored" or "it is said", and that fact isn't necessarily contradicted by what we see. There's not anything that suggests it can't be a chunk of metal pulled from a dying star (outside of the blue energy, but that could just be a representation of using it's power in general), and it is only a piece, so it's not like they're completely tearing apart a distant star and launching everything at a given hunter
 
I keep forgetting that exists

anyways on the Tempered statement, Rajang, Deviljho and Raging Brachydios all still have green scoutflies, so that pretty blatantly contradicts the idea it's something that applies to anything as strong as an Elder Dragon
 
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